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@Sibel I apologize, you live in Belgium thank you. 

He is at a new clinic apparently it was mentioned in another post, forget which one. Search for chu by recent posts and see if you can find it. 

I was actually thinking about you. Do you know many auto immune like conditions do not show up with testings and Dermatologists can be useless, even blood / biopsies. There are auto immunologists and specialists. Some say we get acne because of the gut. I see definite damage to the skin so no I would not do anything to drastic. What about prp with fat for the stem cells or cheaper sculptra injected deeply? If you were to do laser we can't do strong devices so perhaps Tixel or Clear and Brilliant which take many treatments and only do surface improvements. The constraint is being to harsh and making things worse. 

Have you been to consults with plastic surgeons, what do they say?

Any treatment can be done "wrong" by any Dr even Lim if the patient does not heal well or has preexisting conditions. It's a gamble on how you heal, technique alone won't improve healing. 

I would continue subcisions on you the most as you have pits. I do agree with you on pdo threads, that could pull the cheek and give some improvement. 

Trying to help as always. 


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Florida thank you. This is the address Jean gave me. I emailed Jean now.

BA:I did fat transfer a year ago, 3 months and all dissolved, 3000 euro too. Zero for scars. 

Yes it could be gut inflammation. I went through this, I am vegetarian, no diary, gluten, eggs, min sugar. 

I visited many clinics, surgeons. They mostly say tca, phenol or may be a facelift...lasers. And give price lists for thousands...So I stopped to see plastic surgeons for now. 



I said to Chu that I got the damage from Derminator already, asked may be not to do Dermapen having such an experience? He just said either you trust me or not...he wanted to do 2mm on the cheeks, I asked him to do 1,5... I questioned about tca % and asked maybe to start with lower %... he said it was fine.now I blame myself that I did not insist on lower needle length and lower tea %..luckily did not do the cheeks with tca.. now when I go in a week time I do not know what to expect...

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Skinmedico in Chiswick 215. New office, small but new and tidy. 


Prep does not act as a spacer. It has groth factors which helps the healing. 

All the prices are on the site. Or Jean the secretary could mail the full info.

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Had a follow up consultation yesterday. Prof did not see the textural issues I see and said that he did not see anything similar with other patients before....no tca worsening no after dermapen problems...he saw massive improvement...

elevation is there so I decided to repeat prp/sub/dermapen scars only/pdo forehead and cheeks. No dermapen for the places where I see texture change and no cross for now. Prof said the main thing with cross to wipe it quickly after the frosting appears. With 90% is takes seconds, with lower % 5 min to wait. That he does 90% only..was friendly and did not get annoyed when I repeated questions, no pushing. I read here review that he got angry, well it is not my experience and I hear how calm he talks to other people. 

The procedure is today, will update.

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I [email protected] been reading not good reviews on RealSelf about dermapen. About the damage of the texture, pores, new wrinkles and scars. There a lot of these reviews. When I tried to tell Chu about it, he just said to stop reading crap in internet...that he had invented and started using Dermaroller and then dermapen in the UK and in his experience it is only improvement from dermapen.. so all these people are imagining the damage?We all have different healing properties...

I felt like dermapen was done very hard pulling the skin under the eyes, so I asked about it, he said it was not hard and then some docs do it 3 mm deep to the bone...

also I asked what was the size of Nokor needle which he said was 18,5 gauge needle.... I just wanted to know if the certain size is used for Sub or it is different size for diff scars.. but I did not continue the dialog feeling that he did not like the question... I always try to be careful and polite with the questions but it seems like patients asking a lot of questions are annoying..

So I see the textural issues, he does not, he sees the massive improvement while I see some elevation only of the scars on the cheeks. It is very sad to understand that we do not see the same outcome. I believe that Sub should help and that pdo will lift the sagging cheeks a bit. Dermapen, tca cros are under the question.


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@Sibel I am sorry you are getting misinformation from Chu. I don't think it's intentional. I think he is the type of Dr who is stuck in his ways. He is great for manual treatments but sometimes in cases like yours he offers limited treatments. Recent data says DO NO microneedle if your sensitive or a poor healer, the Dr will only make more scars. Dermapen has bad reviews as it's not designed that well compared to derminator and the Drs way over promise results . Chu does not want to hear the reviews, as that is his business and if 80% get results he will continue on doing the same thing. He has prestige so he does not want to hear from you or me anything else except the treatments he performs, Dr's are headstrong as you know. At least he gives people manual methods, and they can go elsewhere if they need more. The size of the needle does not matter, Nokor is a Nokor, ... the same for all scars. I would never use it on you as your just to sensitive, hence why I have said a few times to go see Emil in Denmark who now offers cannular sub and does fillers, like Sculptra which could be great for you if injected deeply and dilute,... unlike Chu's prp/prf and magically everything will be better. I tell most people to get filler elsewhere after swelling has gone down.  That is pretty silly 3mm microneedling will cause extreme damage (Again he does not want to hear the new studies - but he does that... as he does not like to be challenged).

Textural issues, go try some skin boosters, or Meso HA in a med spa. They don't last long though. For a deeper filling Emil or another clinic for fillers, perhaps you will do both. IF you skin is supper sensitive perhaps none of this is appropriate.

Sure continue on with the sub and pdo threads if you wish, sounds good. At least the pdo will give you some lift and fill. A face lift could help with age related laxity and to hide the scars a bit, but PDO is fine if your happy or threads.  Your probably >10% of the total cases he gets who are non res-ponders.

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 BA I read ur answer to floridagirl and u said that if Sub was done in the past with no fillers there won’t be any result. So then it does not matter how many Sub u did, if no filler then no result? And again famous recommended here Chu said No to fillers. Also he says there is no rethetheting, when it is a cut it is a cut, u do not need a spacer. Prp is not a spacer only for healing. So absolutely diff points of view. 

I tried filler and fat- all dissolved in 2-4 months. Lasers and dermapen damage the texture, no improvement for the scars. What are we left with?


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@Sibel I posted the below to Umar, hope you don't mind if I place it here as it applies to your case.


Umar99 I choose not to battle Chu (Some say:tomayto, tomahto). He is prestigious in his 10 year as a professor and dermatologist. If he chooses to ignore a scar type, call it something different, or says you mainly have XYZ scar type so be it. I feel it's unproductive to challenge him. Let him do his package for scars. He has done this treatment for years. IF you need further treatment after several you can go elsewhere for energy devices and or filler. He is good at what he does, ... the basics of scar work - "manually" at a affordable price without much fuss. At least he does not blast you with a laser when you walk in the door. To him your icepicks are not a major concern which I agree. I have to be very through when I give a recommendation. 90% of people only do a treatment or a few and call it good if they see some good results compared to the before scars. One of course can spend a long time on a detailed plan. Easy baby steps, stay with Chu and then move onto someone else if you need more.  

That is a bit strange on stop reading that crap, ... you know your skin better than anyone. If you heal poorly or are sensitive why do something that will cause harm to yourself. Your like 1% to him of patients with side effects, ... why re-invent the wheel. Just know what you want when you goto him and don't get what you don't. 3mm microneedling can cause fat loss and damage to skin, we have the photos and white paper, ... just because you can do something - should you... you know. New data says .75mm to 1.5mm is all that is needed with needling. He does not need the data though as he has a business based around his very long and successful esteem and treatment buffet.   I do agree with him, ... sometimes we read a lot of crap on the internet. There are people selling all sorts of things and saying things for alt reasons. He is selling his package, ... as long as you agree on the terms of doing this - that is great. 

If cannula is so bad why does Lim get more scar cases than anyone else in the world, and that is what he uses now, Rullan, Weiner. They are all top Dr's. It takes effort. Nokor just cuts, but in cases like yours you need that extra protection of not making multiple wounds it seems. Cannula takes skill, Nokor just cuts anything in it's way. IF the person is very fibrotic and tied down I agree Nokor. If they are a poor healer, cannula. In your case you have age related complications of premature aging / fat loss from scars. Hence why a face lift was also mentioned. We are dealing with multiple things, not just a scar type.

Continue on with Chu, ... if you need to look elsewhere I Would look for a plastic surgeon. At least it does not hurt to do some consults right.

Regarding 2 drs. We recommend 2 drs because they are highly esteemed and treat 99% of our Europe patients. Sure there are other Dr's. I have been though so many of bad Dr's in Europe and USA. There is a laser Dr on every corner for $$$$$$$. At least they are ethical and want to help right. IF you need more you can try a plastic. I don't want to confuse people with a hoge podge of so so derms, they are already on the FAQ recommendation list if they cannot find anyone else. Often people travel to see these Drs. 



Your making me work today ;-P 50+ emails of the most sever scarring. But I am trying to help... Ok here is a update on post 2.

I truly believe one needs filler to have any sucess at Subcision. I tell each and every person if they goto Chu, to go elsewhere for filler. I know he does not believe it but Lim does, Emil Does, Rullan Does, Weiner Does, etc... Please don't go battle him on this. He gave you PDO threads - even though he does not believe in fillers ;-P. You know this is filler  and a lift right? Threads make a collagen replacement. I have filler used in most younger patients but for you pdo threads are fine.

4 months filler says you have major fat loss, need many mls of filler because of age - premature aging of acne scars. Most people get 6 months out of filler at least. If you mean it's not as plump as initially, ... this means you did not get enough mls of filler, thus you don't notice it. Sculptra last's much much longer, but I am afraid in your case with healing poorly and complications to use it. Perhaps PDO threads would be best to keep stocking up on these.  PDO threads are for someone before they decide to go all the way with a face lift.

I have said this a million times, prp is for quicker healing, I never tell people to get this unless they want to heal quicker. I say filler. You don't have to stay with 1 Dr for all treatments. But he is doing PDO on you so your lucky. Most he won't do anything else except PRP, they go elsewhere. That is complete bullshit, read the thousands of people who say they re-tethered or it was never cut. He is old school, but he does good subcision, what can I say. Believe the lines and great treated or go elsewhere. It's not conducive for me to fight with his ""views."" If once they are cut they are cut, then please tell all the people who have been helped on here and complain about how subcision did nothing for them and it re-attached, they must be divisional! Again why does he want to believe something that is new data when he has done this for 30 years, ... goto someone else gfor filler or get your pdo threads.  Don't mention my name, or fight with him. Accept it and work with it or move to someone better "for you" ( he is a great Dr) ;-). 

 You are not like most cases on here. Very very rare. Your sensitive, a poor healer, and dealing with age - and premature aging due to scars. Any of these treatments in your case can make the skin worse. Many for a case like yours I tell them to see a plastic surgeon, this is way beyond acne scars. Everything has a risk. Please tell them how you healed from all these procedures, it adds complication to anything else. This is why I think perhaps down the road permanent fillers - or ongoing pdo threads till you do a face lift is best in your case. 

I don't want to fight about Chu, he is a great tool to the suffers here, but no he is not a one stop fix it all solution. 

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It is what I said why to do Dermapen again if I see damage.. the answer was it could not be damage, never had it in my practice with other patients... and what do u do if u know u need the treatment and there are only several docs who could do it.... so yes I decided not to argue because I would leave then...I said no to dermapen in places where I see damage and no to cross...at leat he agreed with this...so he does his package where Sub is the main thing and that is it, either it works or it does not...I just hoped for a dialog with the Doc which unfortunately did not happen...

more and more I understand there is Nothing there to fix the scars. The severe damage was done with inflammations once, the dermal structure inside is damaged. It can not be healthy again. It is no way to regrow the healthy skin on the place of dead scar tissue..


Edited by Sibel
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@Sibelyou need to find a good therapist that works for YOU. I have seen several therapists that weren't for me then I found an excellent therapist and I have made a lot of progress, your scars can be improved but they won't ever be gone, that is sad reality. Treatments do work for scarring, so I don't know why you think nothing works, it is a matter of finding the right physician and treatment as well as multiple other factors. These things take time, listen to what BA has to say, he has helped thousands of people and is more knowledgable than my dermatologist on scarring! Subcision can be effective without filler, though of course there is a chance the scars will reteher after if you don't use a spacer, Chu is excellent at subcision but his views on filler are odd, but you can always go to any expert injector to get filler as soon as your swelling goes down.. that is what I am doing. There are hundreds of places in the UK that will do this for you, or use chinese cupping. You need to be patient, you aren't going to improve overnight, this is why you need therapy, so that you can find happiness whilst you are being treated, and I believe you have some body dysmorphic disorder that is making you see your scars 10x worse than everyone else.


Treatments can and do work, just look at the countless cases that have had their scarring improved on this forum, many treat over 3 years as BA said, you need to be patient. I have acne scars, I know the temptation to get everything done at once but that isn't going to work. You are older than most people on this forum so recovery may take longer for you than most, something to consider, in addition the 'lines' created by the derminator point to some underlying health issue. 


But priority for you should be a therapist first, then addressing your scars. I know you think that therapy is pointless, I did too, but once you find a good therapist believe it or not, it works.

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Hello,has anyone "tried" another European doctor (not Chu and Emil)?Thanks in advance for your replies.

Edited by tasinhoooo
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I have the same question...only 2 docs in the whole Europe??? Everybody in this part of the world with scars go to Chu or Emil??

I found articles doc G Fabbrocini, she is in Italy, will try to contact her.

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Well, just read Nina22 post..not only Novick...the same happened to me with Chu after 2d Subcision(

From the first day I was worried about the big scabs forming on the insertion places after Nokor. After 3 weeks! when the scabs fell off I got 2more new scars((( on my right cheek which was ‘better’ cheek...the cut with Nokor was much bigger this time. At the 1st time it was only one cut much lower and after 3 weeks it healed fine. Why this time 2 insertion points are right in the middle of my cheek and on my cheekbone? Devastated..g

The left cheek has 4 marks, much smaller but still visible also on my cheekbone which was not the case at the 1st time. The bruses are gone and the swelness is almost gone, I do not see any improvement for the old scars and there are new scars. The lines from dermapen are still there( and the new outbreak(small red spots) on the left cheek with developing pigment under the eye..at the dermapened zones the skin is more dry and the outbreak has occurred on this places only. 

I asked Chu to be careful because the skin was extremely sensitive several times, during the dermapen process I asked him not to pull the skin on the cheekbones under the eyes so much but he just said that other guys do it more with 3mm dermapen...

I feel pdo threads in my cheeks, was pain got the first 3-5 days, I can see a little bump where it ends. I do not see any lifting. The threads inserted in the forehead gave some elevation of the middle but the scars are the same..

I have big doubts that the 3d Sub with Chu is needed. 


If anybody who did Sub could suggest smth for healing they used? Chu said Nothing just usual routine. Well my usual routine is aloe gel and tretinoin which is not appropriate for now. 

Yes, it is some healing to do, but I can not understand why to choose the most visible places for Nokor and shy they are much bigger this time..

Edited by Sibel
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That all sounds very distressing, my sympathies to you. :(

Maybe Chu is not the right doctor for you. If he is not listening to your concerns about dermapen then stop. You are paying him to help fix your skin, if you don't like the dermapen you really don't have to do it - especially if you think it's making the condition of your skin worse? 

Perhaps because your skin is so delicate you should take a short break from treating it? This must be very frustrating for you.

There's always things like skin boosters? 


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17 minutes ago, Sibel said:

Who is near Atlanta, GA, check out the DR.Griffin.

I am trying to heal the cuts from Nokor... using hydrogel burnshield with tea tree oil... seems helping....

I have been thinking more about the visits to Chu...he is limited in the procedures, he does not do lasers, fillers and does not like roaccutane....he is quite hard with Dermapen particulary under the eyes areas and not quite concerned about the place for a Nokor cut...he does not answer the post treatment emails...he denies poss aside effects from the treatment...

Again about Nokor size, seems like it does not matter - Nokor is a Nokor... but I find info that for smaller scars the smaller needle gauge is used. Then it leaves no or tiny mark, the larger Nokor size could leave a permanent mark! So different sizes are used! Not just 18,5 size. Probably if smaller needle would be used in the middle of my cheek I would not have such a big cut..but when u are lying on the table it is very hard to tell the Dr !who knows better anyway ! that please do not stick the needle right in the middle of the cheek, choose another place....

At the begging I thought to start from Sub only and did not feel like doing Dermapen and Tca Cross because I already had negative response from these procedures..... but I trust the Doc and it is what I got... the worsening of the texture(Chu did not agree and said it could not happen), the new scars from Nokor cut(no answer from Chu), the old scars are the same maybe softer(Chu said ‘massive improvement’ which as we know is not poss after one treatment). I wish I would do Sub only. It is really really frustrating to have such an experience with one of the best Drs of dermatology, I thought I would have a long treatment plan with him, now I doubt I should again..


You are so right.He never responds on emails and he does really aggressive dermapen.I got new scars near the eye area after i healed from dermapen.I havent had any zits or scars there.I think he streched my skin too much and with aggresive dermapen he created new scars.His tca cross,if done right,can give good results.On my 2 treatments with him,only on my 2nd treatment did good tca session but not on all my scars.Although he is great doctor,he doesnt give much attention on each scar individually or on the things you say.I think he can do better than this.

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