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You're correct - there are so many variables. Not the least of which is which topicals to apply after needling. I wish you luck!

I needled two days ago (2.25mm with a derminator) so I'm going to wait 2 weeks and then try the weekly/1mm protocol to see how my skin and scars react. If that goes well, then (in a couple of months time) I fully intend to try needling every second day for a week or two. Exciting!

Hi, I have been looking for information regarding this, I watched his video before, according to Dr. Des Fernandes it's ok to needle every week or even more often if you can. Which is contradicting with all the other advice (waiting for 4 - 8 weeks at least) Have you tried it SteVen any more information about this? I am also thinking of needling every week at least (with 1.5mm)

My biggest confusion is around the frequency and needle size at the moment. So many different opinions out there and my slow progress isn't helping.

This is from his video "TGF beta 3 rises after needling and then rises further after a second needling if done within a 8 days and rises again after a third needling (Using 1mm rollers)"

Any more thoughts advice from anyone?

4 hours ago, Scarman said:

Hi, I have been looking for information regarding this, I watched his video before, according to Dr. Des Fernandes it's ok to needle every week or even more often if you can. Which is contradicting with all the other advice (waiting for 4 - 8 weeks at least) Have you tried it SteVen any more information about this? I am also thinking of needling every week at least (with 1.5mm)

My biggest confusion is around the frequency and needle size at the moment. So many different opinions out there and my slow progress isn't helping.

This is from his video "TGF beta 3 rises after needling and then rises further after a second needling if done within a 8 days and rises again after a third needling (Using 1mm rollers)"

Any more thoughts advice from anyone?

Do not needle weekly or daily. You can only doing this if going between .25mm - .5mm at 1.5-3mm you need to be waiting a month. Collagen takes months to develop. You will hamper cell development, and possibly introduce bacteria (every time we needle we make a channel). IT would be more beneficial to do monthly 1.5mm with EGF (your topicals) than a bunch of needling. No doctor lasers a patient daily or weekly. If you must alternate 1.5mm monthly with .5mm once or twice in the month for product penetration. I wouldn't be giving my self shots all the time either, it's just not healthy 😉

If you are not getting results with TCA and needling (protocol), the acid is not strong enough or you heal poorly, remember we have the equivalent of auto immune disease, we scar easily. Topical like Epidermal Growth Factors, serums, and HA are very important! Also clean eating and living to avoid damaging results, / sunscreen / plenty of rest / vitamins / low stress!

Thanks for your reply, what about the video and the link above though? Isn't Dr Fernandes the most experienced guy in this field? According to the chart he was showing TGF-B3 was increasing every week he did needling?

I have a very healthy diet, don't drink much, don't smoke, I exercise 3 times a week, I take the best supplements, I do vegetable juicing everyday, I am healthy in general, I heal pretty normal, so either I am not doing the needling frequent enough (once every two months in general 1.5mm, bleed a lot) or not using good topical serums. Or this is the normal progress of needling. Can't be sure really. I have recently (a week ago) started using anteAGE MD package so I was thinking may be I can combine it with the frequent needling. Once a week (I can't do more often than that).

15 hours ago, beautifulambition said:

. Topical like Epidermal Growth Factors, serums, and HA are very important! Also clean eating and living to avoid damaging results, / sunscreen / plenty of rest / vitamins / low stress!

Hi BA can you reccomend any cwrtain brands of Epidermal Growth factors? I dont really know what im looking for and get confused. I live in the Uk so that might be a problem to ones you use. I am ordering the derminator for christmas and am going to finally kick the smoking habit to do anything i can to improve my skin. Also what depth do you reccomend for texture issues and shallow scars?

I believe new collagen is fragile and can be broken down by constantly needling. Im happy with the progress I have made needling every 6 weeks, so I dont see any reason I would change that up.

It also important to work on and maintain your overall complexion. A bright even skin tone can hide scars in many situations. I like to the take time using my favorite topicals.

It would have been interesting to hear about steVen1988's experience with needling thatfrequently. Hopefully he will answer. Fernandes should know what he is talking about I assume.

On 12/9/2016 at 3:33 AM, Scarman said:

Thanks for your reply, what about the video and the link above though? Isn't Dr Fernandes the most experienced guy in this field? According to the chart he was showing TGF-B3 was increasing every week he did needling?

I have a very healthy diet, don't drink much, don't smoke, I exercise 3 times a week, I take the best supplements, I do vegetable juicing everyday, I am healthy in general, I heal pretty normal, so either I am not doing the needling frequent enough (once every two months in general 1.5mm, bleed a lot) or not using good topical serums. Or this is the normal progress of needling. Can't be sure really. I have recently (a week ago) started using anteAGE MD package so I was thinking may be I can combine it with the frequent needling. Once a week (I can't do more often than that).

I would never needle my face every day, your just inviting bacteria in, the same way we do not do injections daily for aesthetics. What would the point be? Collagen as Quan said is fragile. You would be slowing down the healing process. This is why people do not do laser every day, that i collagen remodeling to the extreme (takes months of healing time). Dr fernades does not have a single scar on his face, secondly he does not heal poorly "autoimmune" hence why we scar in the first place.

" In office-based microneedling, the area to be treated is first anesthetized with topical anesthesia for 45 minutes to one hour after which a topical antiseptic is applied. Rolling is then performed 15-20 times in horizontal, vertical, and oblique directions. Pin-point bleeding is to be expected and easily controlled. Once completed, the area is wetted with saline pads. Depending on size of area treated, the procedure lasts for 15 to 20 minutes, A minimum of six weeks is recommended between two treatments as it takes that long for new natural collagen to form. For moderate acne scars, three to four treatments may be needed. " -- Dr. Fernades contrinutes to ths blog on microneedling.
http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/12/20/roll-your-own/

DR. SETTERFIELDis a authority on microneedling it was his research Drs and books cite today about microneedling. I actually have read his white papers over Dr Fernandes as he has much more research on the subject.
--""Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success.Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors.Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells.Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.""
[Edited link out]

On 12/9/2016 at 4:07 AM, clareabella said:

Hi BA can you reccomend any cwrtain brands of Epidermal Growth factors? I dont really know what im looking for and get confused. I live in the Uk so that might be a problem to ones you use. I am ordering the derminator for christmas and am going to finally kick the smoking habit to do anything i can to improve my skin. Also what depth do you reccomend for texture issues and shallow scars?

Clare try http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal-Growth-Factor-BT-EGF.html , they also make premade serums. A excellent place for discussion of topicals is essentialdayspa.com they are mainlyestheticians and people who work in aesthetics business.

36 minutes ago, beautifulambition said:

 
  Clare try  http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal-Growth-Factor-BT-EGF.html  , they also make premade serums. A excellent place for discussion of topicals is essentialdayspa.com they are mainly estheticians and people who work in aesthetics business. 

That's great thank you for your help

On 09/12/2016 at 4:00 PM, beautifulambition said:

I would never needle my face every day, your just inviting bacteria in, the same way we do not do injections daily for aesthetics. What would the point be? Collagen as Quan said is fragile. You would be slowing down the healing process. This is why people do not do laser every day, that i collagen remodeling to the extreme (takes months of healing time). Dr fernades does not have a single scar on his face, secondly he does not heal poorly "autoimmune" hence why we scar in the first place.

" In office-based microneedling, the area to be treated is first anesthetized with topical anesthesia for 45 minutes to one hour after which a topical antiseptic is applied. Rolling is then performed 15-20 times in horizontal, vertical, and oblique directions. Pin-point bleeding is to be expected and easily controlled. Once completed, the area is wetted with saline pads. Depending on size of area treated, the procedure lasts for 15 to 20 minutes, A minimum of six weeks is recommended between two treatments as it takes that long for new natural collagen to form. For moderate acne scars, three to four treatments may be needed. " -- Dr. Fernades contrinutes to ths blog on microneedling.
http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/12/20/roll-your-own/

DR. SETTERFIELDis a authority on microneedling it was his research Drs and books cite today about microneedling. I actually have read his white papers over Dr Fernandes as he has much more research on the subject.
--""Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success.Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors.Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells.Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.""
https://beautymagonline.com/sample-pages/1185-needling-09-1

Clare try http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal-Growth-Factor-BT-EGF.html , they also make premade serums. A excellent place for discussion of topicals is essentialdayspa.com they are mainlyestheticians and people who work in aesthetics business.

Hi BA, sure needling everyday doesn't appeal to me either, it's impossible for me due to work etc anyway. I hear what you are saying and I believed this was the case until I read Dr Fernandes's posts and especially the charts (in his video above) about the TGF-B3 increase when needling is done frequently. Hence my confusion. I know most posts suggest we should wait at least 4 - 6 weeks between needling sessions when 1.5mm or even 0.5mm is used but according to Dr Fernandes if needling is done frequently the TGF-B3 increases after every session and he does this for 6 sessions. I assume he stops after this for a period of time. Here is one of his posts on http://barefacedtruth.com/2014/10/21/cosmeceuticals-applied-skin-microneedling-safety-efficacy-restoration-sanity/

""I think as I have the worlds longest experience of skin needling and have personally done thousands of cases, I should make a comment. I have used vitamin A, C and other antioxidants right from the beginning in 1996 because my clinical studies with vitamin A and antioxidants from 1982 had shown me that vitamin A must be releasing growth factors a detail that has only recently been proved in the laboratory. What can be more natural than using vitamin A etc on skin. Its naturally there in rich quantities provided you are not photodamaged. Since about 2007, I have used additional peptides on myself first and then on my patients skin immediately after needling. Higher up in this conversation there is an indication that I used vitamin A and C a long time ago before the huge clinical evidence had accumulated. Well, between Matthias Aust and myself I think we can rate ourselves amongst the most experienced people in the world of skin needling with thousands of cases. We have in fact largely made the clinical evidence of SAFE skin needling and I recommend our book Percutaneous Collagen Induction if you really want to understand needling. Virtually every case that I have needled over the past 20 years has used vitamin A and C etc immediately after needling and for a protracted period (for the rest of their lives) after that. I have never seen a granuloma, I have never seen an allergic reaction etc etc. People just heal rapidly and get healthier skin. My aggressive regime is to needle the skin between 3 and 7 days interval for a six sessions. We are fortunate to be able to say that growth factor studies on humans is showing what Zeitter showed in rats: the growth factors increase as one needles more frequently. However, this will be the topic of a new report so I wont elaborate further. I think my own face is a testament to this regime. I have had more than 70 needling treatments done between 2 to 7 days so I also talk from personal experience. In more than 5000 cases the use of Environ vitamin ACE Oil immediately after needling has proved to be safe. This fact cannot be ignored. The addition of selected matrix enhancing peptides, and hyaluronic acid helps to produce the finest results from skin needling in the world.""

It also sounds like not all doctors agree with him so it's very hard to know who is actually right. On the same post Dr Johninvited him to discuss this on a separate thread, it would be interesting if they did.

I have kind of started the frequent needling, last week I used the derminator with 0.5mm length and this week I did 1.0mm / 0.5mm combination, thinking of doing the same next week. I am also currently trying the AnteAGE MD needling solution with the serum + accelerator

It would be nice to hear from others too. Steven please post your experience with frequent needling.

Thanks for the link. Have you tried the Skin Actives EPG?

I believe I gaveSteVen1988 the microneedle protocol in the Derminator thread. Every 2 weeks one can roll with a smaller needle length and alternate with TCA, depends on the length and passes.

I have read all the articles about microneedling on that site and others, I am microneedled out haha. Just because someone can do something does not mean it's right. Definitely not for a acne scar suffer who has a auto immune like disease (or we would not scar in the first place). My argument is we take longer to heal, we have more drastic side effects, and we cannot go gung ho with treatments every day or we will simply scar more. As Quan said collagen is extremely fragile especially in it's healing phase. IF it works for Sutterfield great, but I have not read one white clinical paper that states one should needle every day, every week (etc). This subject was discussed to death back in the day on own doc's forums. Sutterfield wants to sell microneedles (retail), so of course he comes at it from that angle. I have not even gotten into the bacteria issue of using a microneedle daily and the potential issues it could cause (you sure would buy a lot of rollers or stamps, good for Sutterfields businesses).

One cannot do acid peels every day in order to rebuild skin layers, nor can they do laser or you would dry your skin.

I would love to hear your experience with Anteage, we all have different outcomes from these things, for me PRP was the best, of course you cannot use this at home. Yes I have tried the skin actives EFG, its pretty good, but nothing earth shattering, same as creams that our hundreds of dollars. Their premade serums with these ingredients are cheaper than brands and have better ingredients. EFG helps to grow collagen, like grass fed beef collagen and supplements your can take they all help. Sugar(artificial) consumption destroys collagen and the immune system, and smoking (diet and lifestyle is very important / proper sleep).

Thank you, it's really good to hear from others on these things, very helpful, I hear what you are saying about needling often and implications.

I think, I am going to do two more sessions which will be 5 weeks in a row (with 0.5 and 1.0) might do only 0.5mm next week and then I am going to take a break for at least 6 weeks. In the mean time I (have been) will be using the AnteAGE MD solutions and sure I will post my experience with this product.

I'll leave this here to hopefully clear things up once and for all. I contacted Dr. Des out of interest for my microneedling regimen, but I think anyone reading would also benefit from this information. In short, Dr. Fernandes' recommendation for a 7-10 day interval between microneedling sessions is independent of depth, provided that one is using the proper after-care to heal quickly: vitamin a, c, and peptides. You can disagree with him. However, Dr. Des has more experience than anyone in doing microneedling in a clinical setting, so I'm inclined to believe this information is credible and serves as evidence that the 4-6 week belief is a myth. You can get much better results, according to Dr. Des, if you needle more frequently.

Here's my question posed to him:

Quote

 

Hi Desmond,

I read your paper Current concepts on how to optimize skin needling 2020: A personal experience. You mention that 4-10 day intervals are optimal. Does this also apply to deeper needling of, lets say, 2-2.5 mm? Im using a derminator ( https://www.derminator.com/ ) for home treatment of facial acne scarring and am unsure of what interval to use given your new guidelines. What interval would you recommend?

Some notes:

I use vitamin A and vitamin C after needling. I also use 0.1% tretinoin at night when I havent needled recently.

Thanks a bunch,

Nick

 

And here's his full response:

Quote

 

Dear Nick,

I had a derminator given to me and it is a useful instrument and I gave it to a friend of mine who does a lot of needling. She loves it

I think when we do deep needling we need to consider the patient a bit more because not every one feels OK to do that. The reason is deeper needling means deeper anaesthesia and while some people may npot mind having a small injection of local, when we are doing a larger area then it becomes a burdon. In some cases I do the needling at 2-3 weeks but when I can I still like to do in 7-10 days. The skin is not the problem. Only the inconvenience to the patient is the problem.

Often I will do one 3 mm deep needling under local anaesthetic and then follow up with 1 mm needling done with topical aanesthesia a week to 10 days after the deep needling. That I believe keeps the TGFB3 and IL10 levels up and promotes a better result.

My experience with needling and tretinoin is that immediately after needling the patients dont appreciate it and have very uncomfortable skin. I prefer the esters in high doses and I find generally the patients are much more comfortable without the tretinoin. I used to sue it personally. One of my problems with Tretinoin creams/gels is that they dont include any antioxidnats, vitamin C, peptides etc which I believe are crucial to getting the best result. Personally, if I were you I would use the highest dose cosmetic retinyl esters and instead of the Tretinoin, rather add good selected peptides. I am part of the formulation team for Environ Skin Care and so we specifically target our formulations for maximum benefit. The particular peptide product that made the breakthrough in our work is the Avance peptide creams and serum. Of course by using our DF technology we increase the effects.

So in summary, If the patient finds it acceptable then I re-needle at 7-10 days irrespective of the depth of the needling. I think skin that is enriched with vitamin A and C gets better benefit from adding something like the Environ Avance cream or serum, than from adding Tretinoin in between needling.

Kind regards