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Well, I'm on my 3rd DermaRoller session (in about 3 months) and I've spent close to $1500 including peptides (NeoCutis PSP and Mitochondria Nutmeg (Matrixyl Hyaluronic Acid)). The doc used a 1.5mm needle and was very aggressive with it. So far, I noticed, that my skin improves 1-3 weeks after each session and then the improvements subsides. The initial improvements are about 30% due to regeneration and tightening of the skin. But this will go away after 3 weeks to about 0-10% improvement. Perhaps I should wait another month to make a better judgement, but let me tell you, I've taken close to 100 pictures between 2nd and 3rd session (taken 40 days in between), and most of the time I honestly can't tell the difference which was before or after - it all depends on the lighting and angle which the picture was taken. Still there is one or two picture I think my skin tone improved about 5-10%. But nothing definitive and nothing major. Though people have said my overall complexion has improved. I don't know how much, if any, the after procedure products contributed.

If you have alot of deep crater scars like I have, don't expect much improvements with DermaRoller. But interestingly, the doc used a single thin needle and poked around one my larger scar on my nose and it has improved about ~25% permanently. It has softened it up and filled in about 25%. I think this method resembles a subcision or something.

Before I began my needling, the doc told me that I'd need 6 sessions to achieve 50% improvement I so much desired. But after 1/2 way through, I'm kind of disappointed with the progress. At this pace, I don't think my skin will ever improve to my goal. I'm guessing at most 6 sessions will improve my skin about 10-15% because I'm seeing like 0-10% now after my 3rd session. So given the cost, I don't think I will do another 3 sessions. My skin needs alot more aggressive treatment to get rid of all the scars, or at least make them look more tolerable. So now I will wait about 6 months before deciding on either dermabrasion or laser.

To be fair, I think needling has its uses (probably tones/tightens your skin and get rid of very small scars) as I see some success stories here. But for me, I don't think it is a very effective method when it comes to many deep acne scars. The theory looks very promising, but the results leaves me with little to be desired. But then again, I've only done 3 sessions in 3 months. Perhaps collagen rebuilding will continue for the next several months, but I highly doubt that it will improve my scars anymore noticeable than it is now. In fact, I think that what little collagen generated to fill the scars will most likely breakdown overtime. Sigh.....

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i think you must wait..

are you dermarolling 1 time a month? the general protocol say 1 session in two months.

where your doc use the single needle, did appear a scab the following days?

hi

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i think you must wait..

are you dermarolling 1 time a month? the general protocol say 1 session in two months.

where your doc use the single needle, did appear a scab the following days?

hi

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i think you must wait..

are you dermarolling 1 time a month? the general protocol say 1 session in two months.

where your doc use the single needle, did appear a scab the following days?

hi

Yes, the doc said best result is once every month. And yes, there was scabbing the following day for the single needle.

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I have been using the clearskin 0.75 home use skin and scalp roller for a few weeks. Of course it takes months to see results. But my skin already looks better ( not the scars, that take months of course).

I use 302 drops only after I roll. I know that there has been comments about 302's claims regarding it's effectivness on acne scars in the past. But I must say that these drops really do make your overall non-scarred skin look much better. Much more so than any of the other topicals I have used in the past. And I have used them all, beleive me.

302 is adament that chemical peels, and the home versions of the same, are damaging in the final anyalasis to the skin becuse these procedures, done with chemicals, thin out the skin and make the scars harder to treat. I was doubtful of this clam becuase it went against all of the prevaiing wisdom. But whatever you beleive the fact is that the 302 drops have been the best topical I have ever used. For one, they took away all of the uneven skin tone I have always been cursed with. It's good for any lines and wrinkles. as for acne scars, the jury is out. But I am hoping in conjunction with the skin and scalp roller it will help. James

Fzappa what are the 302 drops - I've not heard of them?

Caesar2

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I have been using the clearskin 0.75 home use skin and scalp roller for a few weeks. Of course it takes months to see results. But my skin already looks better ( not the scars, that take months of course).

I use 302 drops only after I roll. I know that there has been comments about 302's claims regarding it's effectivness on acne scars in the past. But I must say that these drops really do make your overall non-scarred skin look much better. Much more so than any of the other topicals I have used in the past. And I have used them all, beleive me.

302 is adament that chemical peels, and the home versions of the same, are damaging in the final anyalasis to the skin becuse these procedures, done with chemicals, thin out the skin and make the scars harder to treat. I was doubtful of this clam becuase it went against all of the prevaiing wisdom. But whatever you beleive the fact is that the 302 drops have been the best topical I have ever used. For one, they took away all of the uneven skin tone I have always been cursed with. It's good for any lines and wrinkles. as for acne scars, the jury is out. But I am hoping in conjunction with the skin and scalp roller it will help. James

Fzappa what are the 302 drops - I've not heard of them?

Caesar2

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I AM NEW ON THIS SITE, AND HAVE BEEN READING ALONG,

I HAD BAD ACNE IN MY EARLY 20'S. STARTED OFF USING THE STIVIA CREAMS IN DIFFERENT STRENGHS TO GET RID OF THE RED SPOT MY ACNE LEFT AFTER THEY HAD GONE DOWN- MIND YOU I NEVER SQUEEZED THEM.

THEN AFTER A WHILE I LOOKED INTO SKIN NEEDLING AS THE DOCTOR I WAS SEEING HERE IN SYDNEY WAS DOING IT.

THE FIRST TIME I HAD IT DONE, IT WAS AMAZING THE IMPROVEMENT.

SINCE THEN I HAVE HAD IT DONE BOUT 4 TIMES.

NOW I FEEL LIKE I HAVE VERY SIMILAR SIDE AFFECTS TO SOMEONE ELSE THAT HAS WRITTEN ON THIS SITE.

ALTHOUGH MY PITTING HAS INPROVED, I HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH A LOT OF ROLLING SCARRS FROM THE NEEDLING, NOT SURE IF THE LAST TIME I GOT IT DONE, THE DURATION WAS TOO LONG, MAYBE TOO AGGRESSIVE FOR MY SKIN.

ALSO HAVE A LOT OF HTPERPIGMENTATION.

I JUST WISH I DIN'T GO BACK THAT LAST TIME.

IN THE MORNING MY SKIN LOOKS BETTER AS SOMEONE ELSE WROTE, BY NIGHT AND IN A CERTAIN LIGHT, LIKE IN MY CAR REAR VISION MIRROR, IT LOOKS REALLY BAD.

OF A NUIGHT THOUGH, IT LOOKS GREAT!

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Its really sad how this same time last year ('06)... this board was majorly popular

and now... no one's here on this board reading/responding...

I wonder, what the hell could have possibly come out thats better than needling??????

that is beyond me

trust me, i am a connoisseur when it comes to the pain, angst & the almost all the experience in the world when it comes to acne & acne scars.

back to needling

i went back to Frank at Transitions for my third needling session. ofcourse no one at work knows why i took time off from work, nor do they need to. (except my close friends)

it was almost a 7 hour round trip, but worth every minute.

my dad was like "why did you needle again, i thought ur scars were gone"

i cant wait to heal & evaluate my scars!

my dad oughtta know i am a perfectionist. so if i can achieve 99% improvement. why not??

its not like fraxel where your skin looks raw 12 calendar months after getting it done

Frank is officially a part of my life, whether he likes it or not.

he's totally invited to my wedding, or any major celebration of that sort.

that is the impact he's had. plus, it doesnt hurt that he's genuinely a nice guy, smart, & talented. He's not cold blooded like 99% money hungry crook doctors.

why doesnt anyone notice how cruel doctors are, all you have to do is tune in on those stupid plastic surgery shows.... doesnt anyone notice that plastic surgeons are butchers with a liscense to tell you more is wrong with you than meets the eye??? woman goes in for a face lift... and is told she needs 12 procedures. WTF

so yes = needling is TRUE micro wounds to the skin which TRULY accelerates proper healing, NOT fraxel that sells itself on that principle. i'd know. my multimillionare boss burns her daughters face with fraxel, she's yet to achieve results opposed to raw skin.

HI I'M FROM SYDNEY,

LOVE YOUR ATTITUDE! HAVE HAD NEEDLING MYSELF 4 TIMES, AND SO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO FEL HORRIBLE BOUT YOUR SKIN LOOKING BAD!

THE 4TH TIME I HAD IT DONE, I THINK SHE WENT A LITTLE TO HARD!

MY SKIN LOOKS LIKE YOU CAN STILL SEE THE ROLLING SCARRS,

DID THIS HAPPEN TO YOU AT ALL

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HI I'M FROM SYDNEY,

LOVE YOUR ATTITUDE! HAVE HAD NEEDLING MYSELF 4 TIMES, AND SO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO FEL HORRIBLE BOUT YOUR SKIN LOOKING BAD!

THE 4TH TIME I HAD IT DONE, I THINK SHE WENT A LITTLE TO HARD!

MY SKIN LOOKS LIKE YOU CAN STILL SEE THE ROLLING SCARRS,

DID THIS HAPPEN TO YOU AT ALL

Hey there Lee

Just in luck b/c I havent been on here in 'least 8 mons...

Hmmm, the impression I get is that

your skin did NOT inflame, b/c she went too rough???

...

I distinctly remember that after needling

Immediately -- I get SO swollen, my skin looks like I have not one acne scar

HOWEVER, in days time -- when the skin starts to heal itself, the rolling (etc) scars do reappear

and when they finally have settled, they have a filled-in appearance,

b/c the needling has had its effect. which is permanent (2-3 + wks later)

hope that helped

boy I really need to see Frank, why'd I have to move 1100 miles from him

gahh!!

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Hi guys, I just did needling last thursday at a doctor's office, it's been 8 days and my skin still looks patchy pink with some tanned color and rough texture. Things have not been healing much at all for the past 2 days it seems like! Is that normal??? How long does it take for the skin to totally recover and look normal???

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Guest delta force operators

"I make most of my own products now. But I have used these below which work well.

Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.

PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)

CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing

CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.

SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)

AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)

SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES

RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)

302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.

GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these

Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.

EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.

NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need

TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.

BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin

HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.

TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;

Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.

2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.

After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.

NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.

CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.

24 hours later

Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.

Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.

Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.

48 -72 hours later

Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo

Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.

7-10 Days

Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.

Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.

AM

Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.

Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed

Sunscreen, Hat etc

If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.

Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com

Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen

PM

Cleanse

Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone

Growth Factors can be used with this too.

Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.

I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.

Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.

Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.

HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.

I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.

Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.

Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.

Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.

Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!

It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.

OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.

Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.

Hoping the best for you all.

Take care

Shyana"

That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.

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has anybody tried dermarolling their entire face or the mostly scarred areas and then needling the scars individually in 1 treatment. like the same day? could this cause better results?

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has anybody tried dermarolling their entire face or the mostly scarred areas and then needling the scars individually in 1 treatment. like the same day? could this cause better results?

It should do yeah, alot of derms go over the face several times. They even stop, apply more EMLA (topical anesthetic) then go again. They do this because they believe the more micro injuries you create the better.

I Do agree with this to a point, but i also believe that if you go a bit deeper than the 1.5mm standard, you will get better results. So needling with smething like 3mm 33gauge diabetic lancets is a good idea, i have 4mm ones but i use stoppers to ensure i don't go deeper than 3 mm.

Don't get me wrong i think anything more than 1.5-2mm with a dermaroller is risky because in some areas you will be getting too deep than is safe. Needling individual scars on the cheeks for instance should be fine up yo 3mm depth, but you should really get this done professionally i wouldn't recommend doing it at home (i go crazy with safety using several disinfectants and topical bactroban after i'm gone).

"I make most of my own products now. But I have used these below which work well.

Here is a sample of a treatment protocol. This can be individualized as I said according to your needs, types of scarring, types of needling, saline injection, skin sensitivity etc. At any time you become more inflammed then something is wrong. Stop all products and just us HA and aquaphor until improvement.

PRODUCTS (Walgreens, online sources etc)

CERA VE CLEANSER - These have the right combo of lipids, ceramides and sterols for healing

CERA VE LOTION or CREAM - I like the lotion but the cream is more protective but could be problematic for breakouts for some people.

SPENCO 2nd SKIN QUICK HEAL - (or any other good hyaluronic acid product, need at least 1% solution HA)

AQUAPHOR or VASELINE ( This is your best barrier protection for the initial wounding)

SKIN BIOLOGY COPPER PEPTIDES

RETIN A , or TAZORAC (or some other retinoids like APeel Daily etc.)

302 DROPS -- Expensive but lasts a long time--or can use a mixture of avocado oil/plus sunflower oil for linoleic acid and even Emu oil mixed here with these oils is fine. (Do not use Emu Oil alone it is not enough barrier protection). 302 Drops will also give protein synthesis important in repair ( this is not collagen synthesis) and has the smallest molecular weight to reach the dermis. The oils will just replace the lipids needed for proper wound healing. You can use a mixture of 302 drops, HA and the oils and aquaphor also for a nice barrier protection.

GROWTH FACTORS- One of the these

Colostrum (cheaper and has numerous growth factors) You can mix a little with the Cera Ve lotion at the time of application.

EGF- www.skinactives.com - a little is all you need follow their instructuions. You can use the Cera Ve lotion to mix this with or buy their Canvas Cream Or their Sea Kelp Bioferment to mix with.

NEOCUTIS -expensive but all all the growth facotrs you need

TNS- also expensive and only has 4 growth factors.

BACTROBAN ANTIBIOTIC OINTMENT - is best but you could use Polysporin

HYDROCORTISONE OINTMENT/CREAM - for prolong inflammation 1-2% formula -Only use if needed- If you are still very red/sore after 1-3 weeks then apply some. Use very little just enough to kick in other bio/processes for healing otherwise cortisone will destroy the collagen you are trying to make.

TX. PROTOCOL POST NEEDLING;

Apply HA first then a tiny bit of Aquaphor on top.

2 hours later apply more HA then add the Bactroban ointment on top. Keep the wound moist at all times during the healing process. This is the only time you apply an antibiotic unless infection sets in.

After 4-6 hours add more HA and Aquaphor keep this up until the next day.

NOTE -SOME people who are working on very Fibrous Scars can begin CP's within 2 hours after wounding to help breakdown the scar tissue. You will NOT use Bactroban here then. You will want to use CP's throughout the healing phase to break this up. You may not have good collagen placement but this should improve in your next needling session if you don't use the cp's anymore during remodeling phase.

CP's during the entire healing phase is best used on box scars and fibrous pits, not rolling scars.

24 hours later

Cleanse genetly if needed, tepid water is best here or a mix of vinegar and water.

Apply HA to the wound then mix some HA with Aquapor plus CeraVe Lotion and add 1-2 drops of 302 serum. I begin using 302 and CP's 24-48 hours after wounding depending on my skins' reaction to the wounding. I add a few drops of CP to the HA apply first then apply the above mixtue of lipids and barrier protection. Also at this point for those not using 302 drops you may add the Growth Factors here( colostrum I think is the most benign to use at this point no additives to torment the skin, ie preservatives,glycols etc. ) but be careful not to inlfame the skin. Tiny amounts do wonders. For those not understanding the wounding phases it may be best to delay growth factors until the skin has recovered some, ie a few days later.

Note CP's will increase wound repair time by increasing gelatinases(MMP's) and deposit substances needed to make the ECM (extracellular matrix). The ECM response is what we want so this is why I only use it for a week after wounding.

48 -72 hours later

Cleanse- may add Cera Ve Cleanser if skin tolerates, if too sensitive still then use vinegar/water combo

Repeat the above but add Growth Factors as tolerated. Apply HA then Growth Factors, then the barrier protection. HA is the medium used for communication between cells in wounds, so this always is first. Keep this up until epithilialization has occured 7-10 days.

7-10 Days

Begin Retinoids mix with CP's if you are removing fibrous scars and apply at Night only.

Others will need to stop CP's here if you want better collagen placement. Keep using the other products and apply as needed.

AM

Cleanse with Cera Ve cleanser ( this cleanser is non foaming and super gentle it will not remove makeup or sunscreen)This cleanser or other mild cleansers must be used in the first 2 weeks at least. No harsh chemicals please. Use solutions of vinegar and water if needed for deeper cleansing.

Mix HA and a few drops of 302 and growth factors apply to wounds then apply Cera Ve Cream or Lotion as needed

Sunscreen, Hat etc

If you expose your skin to the sun now you have just negated all that you did! However I do believe non chemical suncreens(zincs-titanium dioxide etc Shesiedo 55 SPF.) are best in this early stage, the cells are very fragile.

Once the skin has healed the better sunscreens should be used, Bioderma etc, the European ones. with higher PPD's than in the US formulations www.physea.com

Settle into a routine of repair now for remodeling collagen

PM

Cleanse

Retinoids and CP or Retinoids alone

Growth Factors can be used with this too.

Switch off nights with 302 and retinoids if desired or use any combo that works for you. These products are synergystic so they can be mixed and matched.

I like the mix of Growth Facotrs and Retin A every other night and 302 Drops and Growth Factors mixed in between nights. I use 302 daily too with my lipid mix until full restoration if the epidermis has occured, 3 weeks or a month.

Remember the first layer of the skin is replaced by 7-10 days. BUT this does not mean the rest of the epidermis has been restored. OK? There are many layers to the skin and this takes time to heal.

Retinoids do not need to be used daily to be effective, if irritation occurs mix with the Cera Ve Lotion and apply. Also I just use retinoids every other day if I am usng the 302 drops and or the growth factors.

HA at this time does not need to be applied first but you will need to continue it for 21 days after wounding.

I like to mix it with my Cera Ve lotion and 302 Drops. Or Apply 302 drops first then the HA and Loton.

Stop Retinoids 1 week to 3 days before any treatments. I can use RA anytine and never stop it. But most skins are not as tough as mine. Retin A research has concluded it does increase healing and collagen placement if used at least 1 month prior to treatments. Best used at least 3-6 months prior to treatments.

Followed within 7-10 days after treatment or when the frst layer of your skin has healed, which is the stratum corneum.

Supplemets are your choice I gave you some ideas in my other posts along with a good multi/mineral. BUT the most imoortant is Beta Glucan 1/3 1/6 !! Why? Because this will stimulate the macrophages to make substances for the basement membrane and subcutis to repair. This damage to the base membrane is why you scarred in the first place. I don't know of any other supplement that stimulates macrophages so this is the best I can offer. Perhaps others can add to this. Some even use BG as a topical but in early wound healing I advise against topical use, too much stimulation is not good.

Use topical L-ascorbic acid or Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate if you have persitant redness and only when the skin has completely healed. Increase bioflavonoids and oral C if prolong redness has ocurred. Stop using CP's too this increases angiogenesis, makes your face red!. C does not increase angiogenesis but will strengthen the vascular beds (decreasing broken caps)with bio-flavonoids and remove iron deposits trapped in the skin causing red marks etc. Retinoids will also increase angiogenesis so use only a few days/week until redness subsides. You must keep using some retinoid though!

It take 3 months or more for collagen to be placed in the tissue. Collagen remodels over and over again until final palcement (end type collagen) your skin will produce. Needling should be done every 3 months not sooner than this unless your needling was very superficial. Do this more often and you will create more scar tissue.. Be patient this takes 1--3 years for some who have severe scarring.

OK I want to surf now. This is exhausting for me. I am so dyslexic and it takes me for ever to type.

Perhaps someone can take my key points and simplify this for others. I did want to explain my methods as best I could for you all to get a clearer understanding why you may not be achieving the results you desire.

Hoping the best for you all.

Take care

Shyana"

That was a qoute from shyana, i was wondering if any of you were following her aftercare protocal.

I was folloing this protocal a long time ago, but i changed to my own. I still include things like the bactroban etc but i now only use terproline twice per day and LED therapy as you know.

My scars no longer bother me.

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Actually, for me, hoping for good results from Dermaroller is what has clouded my judgements.

I've done Dermaroller (3x's) last year, from 12-2007 to 2-2008 from a doctor that promised at least 20-30% improvement.

I kept thinking or wishing to see great results and never bothered to closely look at all the pictures I've taken. The truth is hard to bare... the results are terrible. To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dermarolling and after almost ONE year, I STILL can't tell the difference - and if I had to guess, it actually made it worse.

If you look at picture 12-18-2007 (RIGHT), it is 3 days after my 1st Dermarolling and ignore the redness, it is actually smoother. Now see picture 11-21-2008 (LEFT), taken 11 months after my 1st Dermarolling. Yuck.

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I've got a few compliments from my uncle last week after not seeing him almost a year, but of course, he knew I did Dermarolling and was trying to make me feel better. I know my other cousin would've definetely told me my complexion improved if it actually had; strangely, she kept silent....

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Should've listened to all the other experienced doctors here..... Dermabrasion! Dermabrasion! or maybe Fraxel... I know there is no cure but I think Dermarolling had little effect on me. If my skin tone had improved, it was due to the 20+ facial spa sessions that I've attended last 3 months. Oh well...

PS:

The Dermatologist used genuine 1.5mm Dermaroller and aggressively rolled a good 10 minutes with pain registering close to a 8.5/10 - it was alot more painful than getting my tatoo on my back. I followed all his advise, faithfully applying all the stuff I was suppose to. Neocutis skin cream, Vitamin C and Nutmeg (H.acid) were all used. At the end of the day, I'm thinking it was all a waste of time and money. Majorly.

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Claisen,

Thanks for your post and the picture. I really appreciate your insightful post and I hope that people post their results just like you did. Post like yours truly helps to know what works for what type of scars. Most of the posters are selfish .. they only seek help, but then they don't want to contribute anything in return.

Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.

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Claisen,

I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.

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Claisen,

I'm sorry that you werent happy with your results have you ever thought of TCA cross by a doctor to help? Whatever you do don't give up and I want to thank you for posting your photos you're helping alot of people.

You know, the needling theory sounds great on paper - making thousands of micro-wounds to promote collagen re-modeling and eventually, filling in the scars - but in reality I think that our skin is much much more complicated than that. For one, our skin automatically seals and blocks all those microwounds within hours, if not days and weeks before any collagen induction can be taking place. If this was not the case, we would all bleed to death or die of simple infection.

I'm not here to discount anyone's positive results with needling. I *know* for a fact that my skin did appear better 1-2 week after the needling each time I did it - BUT - as I have posted last year, it was probably due to the swelling and coupled with skin healing that made my scars softer and skin tighter. Most of it, if not all, subsides within a month.

I do believe that I was 'hoping' for great results that others had. And often seeing improvements in good lighting. I mean, if you take the same picture with a flash, you would never see much scars. I can only say, for me, that needling did absolutely nothing for my scars - period.

The dermatologist that performed my needling, btw, attended top medical school in our country. He told me he was one of the 1st doctor to perform needling here, many years ago.

During the procedure, he had to wipe my face with tissue, soaking red so I know he did it correctly. My face formed scabs and turned purpish-red and didn't go away for 3-4 days. After, it was pinkish.

I've consulted a new dermatologist and he has guarantee me 50% improvement in one year; of course I was credulous as I can be. But then he gave me another guarantee - that he will do as much dermabrasion and Fraxel as I required (for about a year or so) to feel satisified with my result for ~$3000 US with all the required topicals. Well, of course I will try this now. Perhaps I will ask him about TCA.

Tonight, I will do a 7.5 level (kj?) 3D-Fraxel for my full face. Depending on how my face responds, he will either do dermabrasion to the worst parts of my face or increase Fraxel level a month from now...

Battle on ...

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Claisen,

Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.

So Fraxel did not work well for you? How many times, at what level and how much have you spent? I don't know much about Total/ActiveFX - I mean they are literally coming out with new machines every single day. I think maybe someday they will create stem-cells that can regenerate scarred faces and burnt victims. Until then, I don't think anything will ever give us 100% satisfaction.

Unfortunately, I don not have the time/energy to look for doctors here in Taiwan that does Total/ActiveFX. I know that new technology will cost $$$$$$. So for now, I've commited myself to spent about $3000 US for the next 12 months or so - doing as much combination of Fraxel and Dermarasion that is required, to give me a result I will be satisfied with (50%). I mean I've already wasted more than that doing useless procedures. Seriously, if it gave me 30%, it would've been better than 0%. And if I don't try, I will never improve.

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Claisen,

Good luck on your quest to get rid of the scars. You mentioned Fraxel .. I went through a series of four this past summer and I am less than satisfied with the results given the the money I spent. After looking at your pics, comparatively my scars are less severe than yours in terms of depth so I don't recommend Fraxel to you. I saw it on one Korean/Chinese website results of some Total/ActiveFX laser (link in one of threads here) and seemed to have much better results for scars that looked more severe than yours. Maybe you should look into it. It looked more promising than anything that I've seen.

So Fraxel did not work well for you? How many times, at what level and how much have you spent? I don't know much about Total/ActiveFX - I mean they are literally coming out with new machines every single day. I think maybe someday they will create stem-cells that can regenerate scarred faces and burnt victims. Until then, I don't think anything will ever give us 100% satisfaction.

Unfortunately, I don not have the time/energy to look for doctors here in Taiwan that does Total/ActiveFX. I know that new technology will cost $$$$$$. So for now, I've commited myself to spent about $3000 US for the next 12 months or so - doing as much combination of Fraxel and Dermarasion that is required, to give me a result I will be satisfied with (50%). I mean I've already wasted more than that doing useless procedures. Seriously, if it gave me 30%, it would've been better than 0%. And if I don't try, I will never improve.

Fraxel did help some but nothing like I thought it would be. In comparison to yours, I have lot shallower scars but density-wise, I'd consider my scarring severe. If you search for my posts, you should see my pics. I did 4 treatments. Forgot the settings, but I know that it was as deep as it could go. The only thing was because I have a skin color that is a tad bit darker than yours, the doctor would not pack more dots per square inch (I'm thinking it'll be the same case for you). After my 4th treatment, I did get some hyperpigmentation on my temples that has gone away since after applying some bleaching cream.

You said you don't have time/energy to look for doctors who'll do Total/ActiveFX in Taiwan, but before you commit with dermabrasion, I've heard horrible stories on dermabrasion in this board. Here's the link that I talked about .. maybe you know Chinese assuming you are in Taiwan so maybe you can get info on the doc as well. There's a couple of threads dedicated to it. It is a combination of Total FX and Active FX lasers. This is the most promising results that I've seen till now for severe scars.

http://drfang01.so-buy.com/front/bin/home.phtml

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Imjayhawk,

Tainan is about an hour from where I live. You know, I wish I had done more research on this before comitting 1/2 of my money already. I highly doubt the doctor will refund me 1/2 the money and call it even. And for me, I'd need to do at least 4 or 5 more Fraxels before I got my money's worth. So I guess, I'm stuck with doing Fraxel and perhaps Dermabrasion. Thanks for your input and yes I went to the site and saw the promising & great results - which btw - was the same feeling I had when they showed me pictures of MTS and Dermarolling. And of course, same feeling I had when they showed me before/after pictures of dermabrasion, Fraxel, etc, etc. Sigh....

I was doing some research on the machine that my doc will be using - 3D Fraxel Sellas - and came across this blog:

http://www.medicalspamd.com/physician-to-p...3?currentPage=2

Here, they were comparing these machines: Reliant Fraxel SR1500, Pearl Cutera and LumenisActiveFX. If you read the blog, you see some believe that Pearl Cutera to be superior to previous lasers. I think the difference between all these lasers are measured in microns. But they basically work with similar principals. So, now I guess I can keep waiting for the next best thing or keep trying with what I'm (stuck) with now.

I know one thing - for you to achieve any permanent result, you will have tons of downtown. I'm sure this is the case for Active or DeepFX. I was told by my derm that with 3D Fraxel, your downtime is 3-4 days; same as needling.

I did some further reserach on the Sellas 3D and saw that it can go down further (1.5mm?) than most Fraxels here in Taiwan. My doc has said that it can go almost as deep as dermabrasion although probably not achieve as good results as dermabrasion.

Anyways, even if ActiveFX is much better, the only thing I can do is telling them to refund my money and charge for the scheduled Fraxel I'm having tonight (or cancel it).

PS. I just called the doc in Tainan and they got a quote of ~US$1800 per treatment with their new laser. Just as I thought, new technology =$$$$$$. I remember Fraxel being that price when it 1st came out. I would need at least 2 FX = $3600. I'm paying $3000 for a promise of at least 50% improvement, even if they have to do 10+ Fraxels...

Anyways, I'm having my Fraxel done in about an hour. I'll keep posted of my progress..

Thanks again for your suggestion. And if you do FX or DeepFX, please let me know of your progress. Perhaps I will be doing that a year from now...Sigh..

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