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Naomiskin

My scars - any suggestions? What types are they? Severity?

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Hi,

I would like some advice on my scarring, thanks:)
(My story short: I started an accutane log but didn't finish that. I started getting acne at 23, had basically perfect skin before.Took accutane from dec 2014 to may 2015).

And here I am, now acne free but have a lot of scars. Actually I wanted my acne to go away desperately, but scarring, probably for the rest of my life is really depressing.:(. Some days I feel ok, but other days I feel so depressed, seeing myself in bad lighting, or in a picture where my scars are more visible.

I think I have boxcar (?) scars. Some days they are less noticeable, in the morning it's pretty much ok, but other times it's awful. 
Today we had pictures taken at work, and again, I saw my scars, and felt like crying....:(
Please, I want honest opinions - how severe my scarring is, and is there anything I can do?:(((( Will dermarolling help me in any ways?

Thanks:)
Naomi

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Edited by Naomiskin

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I have dark scars all over my face and the one thing that I keep getting told is
"Scars always look worse to you than they do to other people"
However, I know how you feel when some work photos crop up, or your face catches the light and all you can see is SCARS!!

to be honest, I don't think that your scars are severe, I'd just say that they were moderate, from what i can see in the pictures.

Some days it gets quite bad for me too, I don't really want to leave the house and when I talk to people I have a problem  with eye contact

Dermarolling is quite painful from what I've heard, my dermatologist told me a laser was a better option but I suppose it depends on the type of scars....

Anyway, try and keep your chin up hun, 'cause I think you look pretty :)

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Looks like you have a little bit of everything, but to be honest your skin is still pretty nice. Before getting any treatment you should know that quite a lot of people permanently worsened their scars looking for a quick fix, especially with lasers causing more scars and fat loss. But yeah you can try dermarolling first, there's not much risk to it.

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Hey Naomi,
Thanks for the photos! I truly understand the pain you're going through. Dermarolling or needling would certainly be beneficial for reduction of scars appearance. However, I'd advise you keep your acne under control first. I see some active lesions and if you'd dermaroll the area, chances are the lesions would be infected and gets scarred or worse infecting other regions as well.
Also, I see predominantly boxcar scars (those with sharp edges) and rolling scars. If possible, see a dermatologist that specialize in acne scarring. Request for subcision, it is a wonderful technique for rolling scars and to a certain degree, for boxcar scars. Please bear in mind that not all treatments would yield satisfactory results. Just because it work for one doesn't mean it work for you. I applaud your courage for moving on and I wish you all the best. Do update us on your next course of action.

Regards,
Scarredemon

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I have dark scars all over my face and the one thing that I keep getting told is
"Scars always look worse to you than they do to other people"
However, I know how you feel when some work photos crop up, or your face catches the light and all you can see is SCARS!!

to be honest, I don't think that your scars are severe, I'd just say that they were moderate, from what i can see in the pictures.

Some days it gets quite bad for me too, I don't really want to leave the house and when I talk to people I have a problem  with eye contact

Dermarolling is quite painful from what I've heard, my dermatologist told me a laser was a better option but I suppose it depends on the type of scars....

Anyway, try and keep your chin up hun, 'cause I think you look pretty :)

Yes, i know, everyone tells me the same thing, that my scars look worse in my eyes. I think a part of it is true, you don't notice other people's flaws as you do your own, but these people also want me to feel better, so i don't know, that's why i came here for honest opinions:).
Thank you for your reply:):)


 

Looks like you have a little bit of everything, but to be honest your skin is still pretty nice. Before getting any treatment you should know that quite a lot of people permanently worsened their scars looking for a quick fix, especially with lasers causing more scars and fat loss. But yeah you can try dermarolling first, there's not much risk to it.

Thanks:)

So there is no risk to dermarolling? I purchased rollers from ebay, and those are pretty cheap, 1,5mm ones. So there's no chance I could make my skin worse than it is already?

Hey Naomi,
Thanks for the photos! I truly understand the pain you're going through. Dermarolling or needling would certainly be beneficial for reduction of scars appearance. However, I'd advise you keep your acne under control first. I see some active lesions and if you'd dermaroll the area, chances are the lesions would be infected and gets scarred or worse infecting other regions as well.
Also, I see predominantly boxcar scars (those with sharp edges) and rolling scars. If possible, see a dermatologist that specialize in acne scarring. Request for subcision, it is a wonderful technique for rolling scars and to a certain degree, for boxcar scars. Please bear in mind that not all treatments would yield satisfactory results. Just because it work for one doesn't mean it work for you. I applaud your courage for moving on and I wish you all the best. Do update us on your next course of action.

Regards,
Scarredemon

Thank you for replying:).
Actually, i have zero acne now, those are older photos, accutane did a good job, i don't have anything since. Only these ugly scars:(.
Unfortunately where i live (Hungary) there are not many doctors specialized in scarring, they do dermarolling and lasers, but there is not much info about the doctors, the results, etc.. I read that subcision is good for rolling scars, but i think my boxcar ones are more severe, and to be honest, subcision makes me pretty nervous:S, and honestly i didn't find one doctor who does that here:(. But if nothing helps, i might do it. 
First I'll try dermarolling, and I might try tretinoin cremes. 

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Yeah I don't think you can make your scars any worse with a short length dermaroller (under 1.5mm), but usually 1.5-2mm is the general length  for acne scars. I've seen a few people claim that it made their scars worse but most people, including me have only seen improvement or no change at all, with the majority seeing very slight improvement .

Edited by Tadamasa

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Yeah I don't think you can make your scars any worse with a short length dermaroller (under 1.5mm), but usually 1.5-2mm is the general length  for acne scars. I've seen a few people claim that it made their scars worse but most people, including me have only seen improvement or no change at all, with the majority seeing very slight improvement .

I ordered 1,5mm ones, so I'm hoping it will hep at least a little bit, a slight improvement is still an improvement:)

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Naomiskin


I see you stopped with Accutane around may, i would wait a year in total do anything, because your skin may be still very sensitive. Generally it takes a year for scares to heal. I am afraid of needling, because i have seen very bad things happen with it. Ive also seen some great results. Whatever you choose to do please do research and see if it is something for your skin type

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Naomiskin


I see you stopped with Accutane around may, i would wait a year in total do anything, because your skin may be still very sensitive. Generally it takes a year for scares to heal. I am afraid of needling, because i have seen very bad things happen with it. Ive also seen some great results. Whatever you choose to do please do research and see if it is something for your skin type

Thanks, yes i am afraid too, i might wait, but i am really unpatient now:(.

I uploaded new pics of my skin, i took them today. I'ts so sad that in the morning my skin is so much better, i mean, i could be ok with it if it was like that all day, but in the evening it's terrible:(. Why is that? Why can't we have our morning skin for the whole day?:(:(

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This is EXACTLY what happens to me too. Although would you rather it be the other way around? At least you look good when you go to work and most day of work... then at night... yes it sucks... but you'll figure it out. At least you'll be a day time person instead of a night time one... It is definitely healthier... Look into dermastamp and subcision!

You have very pretty cheek bones! And, face of course.

Edited by il90

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Mine look a lot better in the mornings too.  The fact that you're laying horizontal for hours basically makes your face a little bloated and puffy in the morning, which disguises the scars.  I read before how some people intentionally create this micro-swelling with mild to moderate derma-rolling as a kind of work-around solution to disguise their scars.  Every few days they would do just enough rolling to cause swelling.  You look amazing for a few days, and then the swelling dissipates. The redness can be covered with makeup.  

But is this harmful in the long-term to roll so frequently? Who knows, but I would think the longer needles pose a risk.  

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What about taking a nap before you go out at night? How long do you have to be asleep for it to bloat up? Would fat grafting create the same? What about fillers?

I must say though, that in the last picture it only looks bad because of your cheek bones, the second picture isn't really that bad to be honest. It will definitely not distract from your looks or anything. Start dermapen, and maybe go see someone that can do TCA cross? It'll probably take you 3-4 times before you are satisfied but I think TCA is great for boxcar which is pretty much what you have. 

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pretty mind blowing the quantity of bad advice around here. you have moderate to severe scars, I will be left after Roaccutane with almost the same scars you have and 4 dermatologists I've been in the last 3 months told me that Fraxel laser is the only thing that will get me good results and I'll have to get 4-6 sessions and the best results might be seen after 6 monts and up to a year. I live in Romania, btw and I'm telling you what dermatologists told me, not what I believe it would be good for me. My current derm told me I have to wait at least 3 months after Roaccutane in order to get Fraxel laser.

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Do not despair! Your scarring reminds me to that of Sverd's scarring found here. He was able to improve his scarring after just one round of subcision. His after pictures are somewhere inside of that post but I don't have time right now to pinpoint them out. He periodically comes by and gives us his updates. Check it out if you can.

Edited by Robertitoo

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pretty mind blowing the quantity of bad advice around here. you have moderate to severe scars, I will be left after Roaccutane with almost the same scars you have and 4 dermatologists I've been in the last 3 months told me that Fraxel laser is the only thing that will get me good results and I'll have to get 4-6 sessions and the best results might be seen after 6 monts and up to a year. I live in Romania, btw and I'm telling you what dermatologists told me, not what I believe it would be good for me. My current derm told me I have to wait at least 3 months after Roaccutane in order to get Fraxel laser.

No they aren't severe. You should look up severe acne scarring. Here is an example: url

Every derm will tell you Fraxel but you would do well to check ACTUAL reviews made by real people... There are some real horror stories around here about laser, most people have actually damaged their skin even more. If you actually go down that route make sure it is repair and not restore (will do nothing for depressions) and that you have a really good dermatologist. 

It is still bewildering to most around here why they still offer lasers first and foremost to patients regardless of the fact that you can have more improvements with subcision, TCA cross and dermapen for a fraction of what 1 fraxel session will costs. 

Also you have to wait 6+ months after Roaccutane to get scar treatment, some say 12+ months, if you don't want to do further damage to your skin...

The one offering mind blowing bad advice seem to be you....

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I have done dermarolling.I have the the exact same scarring as you do!!  It did work on my scars. I did it for 3 months. I got my kit from Banish Acne Scars online http://banishacnescars.com/. It wasn't badly priced and the pain from dermarolling isn't bad. Choose the needle size they recommend though and buy their Vit C serum. But it isn't a miracle wand though. It will fade the scars pretty good but they won't disappear all together. I do believe it did caused me more infection in my pores (my reason for stopping). I am currently using Nerium AD for the clogged pores so far so good for 3 weeks. My skin isn't perfect and I think dermarolling causes the skin to have a funny pattern to it. Almost wavy. Well that's my advice. Good luck. Email me if you have any questions.

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pretty mind blowing the quantity of bad advice around here. you have moderate to severe scars, I will be left after Roaccutane with almost the same scars you have and 4 dermatologists I've been in the last 3 months told me that Fraxel laser is the only thing that will get me good results and I'll have to get 4-6 sessions and the best results might be seen after 6 monts and up to a year. I live in Romania, btw and I'm telling you what dermatologists told me, not what I believe it would be good for me. My current derm told me I have to wait at least 3 months after Roaccutane in order to get Fraxel laser.

No they aren't severe. You should look up severe acne scarring. Here is an example: url

Every derm will tell you Fraxel but you would do well to check ACTUAL reviews made by real people... There are some real horror stories around here about laser, most people have actually damaged their skin even more. If you actually go down that route make sure it is repair and not restore (will do nothing for depressions) and that you have a really good dermatologist. 

It is still bewildering to most around here why they still offer lasers first and foremost to patients regardless of the fact that you can have more improvements with subcision, TCA cross and dermapen for a fraction of what 1 fraxel session will costs. 

Also you have to wait 6+ months after Roaccutane to get scar treatment, some say 12+ months, if you don't want to do further damage to your skin...

The one offering mind blowing bad advice seem to be you....

Good post. i agree with most of what you are saying.

Just one thing, i don't think it is a good idea to focus too much on the experience of other people who underwent a given treatment. Testimonies you will find on the internet are not an accurate represention. If you find, for example, five bad reviews and zero good ones of a certain treatment, you will most likely conclude that is is a bad treatment. But in reality it might be the case that the treatment is 99 percent succesful, and the other 1 percent just decided to leave a bad review. It is much more useful to listen to what an (unbiased) expert has to say, or to read the studies that have been done.

Edited by arte90

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Yes there is definite truth in that phenomenon. However, here is a difference with moderate-severe scarring generally...

The 'experts' tell us that there is never any 100% case, so there will never be that person who is 100% satisfied and never posts because they just can't be bothered. With Accutane for instance it is the opposite, a lot of people with good experiences never post because they are 100% satisfied (or close to it) and thus finds it useless to make any sort of post (the majority). Further, with scarring treatments you have to have several session in general to see improvements (also what the 'experts' tell us), in-between these sessions this is where people usually post. Because it is such a bumpy ride for most scarring suffers you will have both good and bad reviews.. With Accutane, for instance, you will only have the people who are distraught post (so more bad reviews) because the people with good reviews can not be bothered. With scarring, anyone will post because it is not just a one time thing (unless we're dealing with some minor scarring). With minor scarring laser might be great for all we know, but for moderate to severe I do believe it isn't. For, you see, anyone having gone through these extremely painful treatments and been successful of getting rid off severe or moderate scarring will want to show people. Further, what if you have severe acne scarring and lasers do nothing, or make it worse? I believe it is more likely people won't post in this case. So, with scarring I don't think this theory can be applied. 

Nevertheless, only my own opinion. 

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First of all, I think there is a difference between 100 percent improvement and with being 100 percent satisfied. You can have a 50 percent improvement and be 100 percent satisfied. I think being satisfied or not depends on your expectations. Speaking for myself, I would be 100 percent satisfied with a 70 percent improvement, because i think this is at the upper end of what is achieveable and because it just doesn't have to be perfect.

Furthermore, i think that it is in part because of the fact that multiple treatment are needed that personal reviews are not representable for the treatment as a whole. You will see a lot of posts saying people are dissapointed, while they have had only one treatment and are therefore not even in a position to give an accurate review of the treatment. 

I also do not believe that anyone who succeeded in getting rid of severe or moderate scarring will share this on the internet. I can imagine that when you get to that point, you truley want to forget that awefull period as fast as you can. 

What also has to be taken into account is the phenomenon called 'tunnel vision': people tend to see only those reviews that fits with what they already do believe and they tend to discard those reviews that converge from their prior beliefs. 

Edited by arte90

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pretty mind blowing the quantity of bad advice around here. you have moderate to severe scars, I will be left after Roaccutane with almost the same scars you have and 4 dermatologists I've been in the last 3 months told me that Fraxel laser is the only thing that will get me good results and I'll have to get 4-6 sessions and the best results might be seen after 6 monts and up to a year. I live in Romania, btw and I'm telling you what dermatologists told me, not what I believe it would be good for me. My current derm told me I have to wait at least 3 months after Roaccutane in order to get Fraxel laser.

No they aren't severe. You should look up severe acne scarring. Here is an example: url

Every derm will tell you Fraxel but you would do well to check ACTUAL reviews made by real people... There are some real horror stories around here about laser, most people have actually damaged their skin even more. If you actually go down that route make sure it is repair and not restore (will do nothing for depressions) and that you have a really good dermatologist. 

It is still bewildering to most around here why they still offer lasers first and foremost to patients regardless of the fact that you can have more improvements with subcision, TCA cross and dermapen for a fraction of what 1 fraxel session will costs. 

Also you have to wait 6+ months after Roaccutane to get scar treatment, some say 12+ months, if you don't want to do further damage to your skin...

The one offering mind blowing bad advice seem to be you....

yeah, well I'm the one whose been told what I've said here by 4 different dermatologists and I'm the one who had 2 VISIA sessions, dermatoscopy and other computerised session in order to determine how bad my acne/scars are, in the last 3 months. you cannot tell the severity of acne/scars by looking up images on google, that's not how you calculate it. My derm showed me over 500 cases she had with acne/scars in the last 5 years and the results she had with Fraxel, peelings, needling, different light therapy, subcision etc. you can read a glimpse about scars here. your face doesn't have to be disfigured by scars/acne in order to consider it severe, that's not how those parameters work. Not every derm tells you about Fraxel, but most of them do, because that's the most efficient way to this day, for complicated scars. Yes, there are "some" bad stories, but not "most" people damaged their skin. And even then, the results are not entirely based on what method you use for your scars, there are many other things to be taken into account, like overall health, the way you produce colagen, skin tone/colour, the way your body heals etc. That's like Roaccutane, there are "some" bad stories, but that's a very small percentage, which is making a lot of noise, obviously. No, you don't have to wait 6-12+ months after Roaccutane, that's you again quoting nonsense from very old articles, repetead brainlessly by people who probably never took Accutane in the first place. There were many wrong facts about Roaccutane, most of them linked with dosage, cumulative dosage, lenght of treatment, scar correction after treatment, which have been studied and proved wrong in the last years, especially from european dermatologists. you can see something about it here.

In case you missed it, I've actually been told these things recently by different dermatologists and I've been shown similar cases as mine. But hey, you probably know better than them because you've read 3 reviews and 2 articles from 2005. Hopefully the girl who made this topic won't waste time and money because of that.

 

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Not every derm tells you about Fraxel, but most of them do, because that's the most efficient way to this day, for complicated scars. 
 

But that's the point. It isn't. But I'm glad you have been properly brainwashed by 4 different dermatologists to pay so much money for something that might very well just end up damaging your skin even more. 

I haven't actually "read 2 reviews" and therefore made my conclusion. I have spent months finding the best dermatologist I could find who, with real studies, showed me how you can really correct scarring in a safe manner. 

I suggest you look at these studies before you decide on laser: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996784/ and http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225277482_Subcision_for_treatment_of_rolling_acne_scars_in_Iraqi_patients_A_clinical_study

I don't know who you are, but understand that dermatology is a money business like anything else and I would really consider what real people who have actually had these treatments are saying. If a lot of people come out and tell you that lasers did nothing or it made it worse and a dermatologist, that will actually make a TON of money on you, say otherwise, I would be really cautious.

Obviously it is really your choice what you do, but saying that laser will ONLY work because you have been told so by a few dermatologist - that will make a lot of money of you - seem a bit ignorant.

I'm not launching a discussion, but I am a bit irritated that you so arrogantly try to push laser when clearly it isn't at all the best procedure out there. Although, it is the pricy one.

Subcision/TCA cross/dermapen/prp = 300 pounds
Laser (one session) more than 1000+ pounds - you will also need several - who has that kind of cash?

Better reviews? The cheaper one... But your derm says otherwise so this must all be bullshit then. 

Edited by il90

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First of all, I think there is a difference between 100 percent improvement and with being 100 percent satisfied. You can have a 50 percent improvement and be 100 percent satisfied. I think being satisfied or not depends on your expectations. Speaking for myself, I would be 100 percent satisfied with a 70 percent improvement, because i think this is at the upper end of what is achieveable and because it just doesn't have to be perfect.

Furthermore, i think that it is in part because of the fact that multiple treatment are needed that personal reviews are not representable for the treatment as a whole. You will see a lot of posts saying people are dissapointed, while they have had only one treatment and are therefore not even in a position to give an accurate review of the treatment. 

I also do not believe that anyone who succeeded in getting rid of severe or moderate scarring will share this on the internet. I can imagine that when you get to that point, you truley want to forget that awefull period as fast as you can. 

What also has to be taken into account is the phenomenon called 'tunnel vision': people tend to see only those reviews that fits with what they already do believe and they tend to discard those reviews that converge from their prior beliefs. 

Okay, you would be okay with 70% but you're still around though? Even you who don't even want 100% are drawn to these forums. The idea that I was presenting before was that having scar treatment is not going to be like walking in a straight line. Most will stumble and seek advice from other people before they reach the end of the road. Therefore, we will hear from more people in this case than in a case where you have more success rate straight away. 

I don't really want to argue with you, and I understand these theories very well... But if you do believe that we have 'tunnel vision' with regards to Subcision and dermapen it is also proper that you present studies (independent) to contradict the belief in the first place. You cannot just say oh you have 'tunnel vision' because you believe subcision is superior to laser, you have to actually convince me with proper studies that I am wrong. 


For now there are no comparative studies, which might never be developed considering the money that would be lost if word came out that these simple cheap procedures have the same effect with less risks, so there is no way of knowing.

But the fact is laser is really EXPENSIVE and RISKY, two things you don't want. While subcision and derma roller is very cheap and pretty safe really. This is not 'tunnel vision' it is just making an analytical decision on the evidence that exists today. I won't reject real evidence on this, because it is not a matter of being right, or winning an argument, but my life and my skin which comes before being right about this shit. Trust me I don't care, and if you are right then great because that means lasers WORK and that is better than winning any argument. 

ANYWAYS, all I want for OP though is not having to go through the painful experiences people seem to have had with Fraxel and lasers in general and that she finds a treatment that she will be happy with. 

Edited by il90

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Not every derm tells you about Fraxel, but most of them do, because that's the most efficient way to this day, for complicated scars. 
 

But that's the point.

If by brainwashed you mean VISIA/dermatoscopy/computerised session to calculate severity/deepness/pigmentation/tone of my skin etc. and then showing me about 500 cases with different methods of correcting acne/scars and letting me to choose one method for the future, then yeah, they brainwashed me. Don't really care what 20 people are saying on the Internet, not even 100, because that's an irrelevant sample size. From what I've seen and discussed with my derm, Fraxel would get me the best results. And then again, that's totally person dependable. The 1k pounds Fraxel Laser is meant to be made once every 4-5 years and not everybody is suitable for that. You can get 4-6 100-150 euro sessions spread over the course of 3-9 months, here in my country.

Don't know about your country and I won't deny medicine in general is a money business, but here, every time I asked about peelings, lasers, light therapy, they've told me they can do it, but it would be a gamble and I might not get as good results as I could get with Accutane. When it came to scars, they didn't push anything on me, they showed me their results and let me choose what I want/can afford. It wouldn't have made sense to tell me to consider Fraxel if they wouldn't have great results to back it up and show me.

And fwiw, "cheap and not risky" things have done exactly nothing for me so far. But then again, that's totally person depandable.

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No one disputes the fact that we have damaged skin, what is being discussed is actually how to correct it. So, saying you have been shown how deep the damage is with VISIA is totally irrelevant here. Then being told by ONE derm that this is the only way to correct it. Well, then, it must be true.

I'm quite bewildered, it is as if you are trying to justify what your dermatologist tells you with what you dermatologist tells you. I mean did they also show you the bad cases? Did she/he go through the extreme risks involved? Naturally, she showed you cases where improvement was seen and told you that laser would be your optimal choice thus she must be right. Did she show you cases where other methods were used and its success rate or did she limit the success stories to the expensive procedures?

Although, to be honest there is a lot of confusion, your derm might genuinely believe this is the only way. You could show her the studies above and see how she responds. 

Also, you seem to think a sample size of 100 is irrelevant but one isn't? I know you might have seen before/after pictures but did you see if there was different lighting, exactly every procedure that was involved (sometimes they actually perform Subcision and TCA cross with lasers), how long between treatments, how many, downtime and patient satisfaction? 

Dude, I wish you all of luck. I might be totally wrong though and you end up very happy with lasers. I just don't like the fact that so many people have been hurt by them, it makes me angry that money is more important than people. Hopefully, I am wrong though and lasers do help people who have spent so much on them. 

Edited by il90

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First of all, I think there is a difference between 100 percent improvement and with being 100 percent satisfied. You can have a 50 percent improvement and be 100 percent satisfied. I think being satisfied or not depends on your expectations. Speaking for myself, I would be 100 percent satisfied with a 70 percent improvement, because i think this is at the upper end of what is achieveable and because it just doesn't have to be perfect.

Furthermore, i think that it is in part because of the fact that multiple treatment are needed that personal reviews are not representable for the treatment as a whole. You will see a lot of posts saying people are dissapointed, while they have had only one treatment and are therefore not even in a position to give an accurate review of the treatment. 

I also do not believe that anyone who succeeded in getting rid of severe or moderate scarring will share this on the internet. I can imagine that when you get to that point, you truley want to forget that awefull period as fast as you can. 

What also has to be taken into account is the phenomenon called 'tunnel vision': people tend to see only those reviews that fits with what they already do believe and they tend to discard those reviews that converge from their prior beliefs. 

Okay, you would be okay with 70% but you're still around though? Even you who don't even want 100% are drawn to these forums. The idea that I was presenting before was that having scar treatment is not going to be like walking in a straight line. Most will stumble and seek advice from other people before they reach the end of the road. Therefore, we will hear from more people in this case than in a case where you have more success rate straight away. 

I don't really want to argue with you, and I understand these theories very well... But if you do believe that we have 'tunnel vision' with regards to Subcision and dermapen it is also proper that you present studies (independent) to contradict the belief in the first place. You cannot just say oh you have 'tunnel vision' because you believe subcision is superior to laser, you have to actually convince me with proper studies that I am wrong. 


For now there are no comparative studies, which might never be developed considering the money that would be lost if word came out that these simple cheap procedures have the same effect with less risks, so there is no way of knowing.

But the fact is laser is really EXPENSIVE and RISKY, two things you don't want. While subcision and derma roller is very cheap and pretty safe really. This is not 'tunnel vision' it is just making an analytical decision on the evidence that exists today. I won't reject real evidence on this, because it is not a matter of being right, or winning an argument, but my life and my skin which comes before being right about this shit. Trust me I don't care, and if you are right then great because that means lasers WORK and that is better than winning any argument. 

ANYWAYS, all I want for OP though is not having to go through the painful experiences people seem to have had with Fraxel and lasers in general and that she finds a treatment that she will be happy with. 

i did not say that I have 70 percent inprovement. I wish. I said I would be happy with a 70 percent improvement. 

I am also not saying you have tunnel vision. All I wanted to do is to make others aware of the phenomenon, even those who want to go for laser. I actually think subscision can be an excellent treatment for the right scar type, as well as dermapen since there are indeed many studies supporting this. Too bad is not offered in my country.

I am not attacking you here. My whole point is to be critical when it comes to personal experiences, not that they are useless. I see you are doing your research. That is great! I want to encourage others to do so as well. 



 

Edited by arte90

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