Hi everyone. As most of you here know, accutane is in most cases taken to cure acne. Accutane was not made to cure acne, it just happened to be good for it. I don't think the medicine was ever adjusted after the chemo drug was out - leaving it to be a mysterious and much speculated drug for acne.
Personally, ive been debating on taking accutane for years. I first got the offer from my doctor years ago, but i never returned to accept it. Reason? horror stories from the internet, mostly.
I am not concerned about temporary side effects at all. What bothers me, is the risk of permanent side effects, which the doctors never tend to warn you about. In this post, i want to discuss one topic that has especially bothered me, and always tilts me to the choice of not taking it.
People tend to look at acne as something "bad". Sure.. the way we look at eachother, the way we're "supposed" to be, acne is bad. But think about it, does the body think the same? Is there ANY relation to acne and illness? Do people with acne die at a younger age? Is acne really a sign of somehting bad? Is acne actually "toxins from the liver "? There's NO evidence of this.
This is the way humans tend to think. It's a very simple and naive way of thinking that has existed for thousands of years. We experience somehting bad, there must be a reason for it? It hasn't rained for days, it must be the gods punishing us, we must sacrifice something. We're getting acne, we must be doing somehting bad, we must be eating wrong. I don't buy it.
So now, that we established that acne might not be somehting bad that we have to cure to survive. Maybe we can take away the word "cure". Now lets make a new sentence. "One of the side effects from accutane is that it may permanently destroy the cause of acne". There's no reason that removing acne can't be looked at as a side effect instead of cure. Now , let me challenge you.. Why would the removal of acne after taking accutane, be the only permanent side effect? For this to be permanent, there HAS to be more side effects in your body that is permanent.
Interesting thoughts Moisturer...
I like you don't really buy the idea that we're doing anything wrong with diet or lifestyle to suffer the burden of acne and I think you're right that having acne is not an indication of any other disease that would shorten your otherwise normal life. You are obviously a strong person emotionally and can deal with living with acne.
I went on a course of Accutane at age 20 and now at 40 something get occasional pimples that tend to clear up quickly although I largely consider myself 'cured' I can share that I don't feel I have any other serious side effects of having gone through Accutane treatment. I'm in pretty good health and have my own teenage family now. I think it's pretty hard for any of us as individuals to draw any real conclusions about long term side effects and I think it is equally hard for doctors to make conclusions about long term side effects as they simply can't control all of the variables in any given patients life for significant periods of time.
I will look forward to seeing what anyone else has to say about this.
Hi everyone. As most of you here know, accutane is in most cases taken to cure acne. Accutane was not made to cure acne, it just happened to be good for it. I don't think the medicine was ever adjusted after the chemo drug was out - leaving it to be a mysterious and much speculated drug for acne. It works because it deals with the same pathway
Personally, ive been debating on taking accutane for years. I first got the offer from my doctor years ago, but i never returned to accept it. Reason? horror stories from the internet, mostly.
I am not concerned about temporary side effects at all. What bothers me, is the risk of permanent side effects, which the doctors never tend to warn you about. In this post, i want to discuss one topic that has especially bothered me, and always tilts me to the choice of not taking it.
People tend to look at acne as something "bad". Sure.. the way we look at eachother, the way we're "supposed" to be, acne is bad. But think about it, does the body think the same? Is there ANY relation to acne and illness? Yes Do people with acne die at a younger age? Probably not Is acne really a sign of somehting bad? Yes Is acne actually "toxins from the liver "? No There's NO evidence of this. There is
This is the way humans tend to think. It's a very simple and naive way of thinking that has existed for thousands of years. We experience somehting bad, there must be a reason for it? It hasn't rained for days, it must be the gods punishing us, we must sacrifice something. We're getting acne, we must be doing somehting bad, we must be eating wrong. I don't buy it.
So now, that we you, not we established that acne might not be somehting bad that we have to cure to survive. Maybe we can take away the word "cure". Now lets make a new sentence. "One of the side effects from accutane is that it may permanently destroy the cause of acne". There's no reason that removing acne can't be looked at as a side effect instead of cure. Now , let me challenge you.. Why would the removal of acne after taking accutane, be the only permanent side effect? For this to be permanent, there HAS to be more side effects in your body that is permanent. you've lost me
I think it is great you ask a lot of questions. The problem is the answers you give. Have you really done your research looking into scientific studies linking acne to diseases, risks, cause of acne etc?
Hi everyone. As most of you here know, accutane is in most cases taken to cure acne. Accutane was not made to cure acne, it just happened to be good for it. I don't think the medicine was ever adjusted after the chemo drug was out - leaving it to be a mysterious and much speculated drug for acne. It works because it deals with the same pathway
Personally, ive been debating on taking accutane for years. I first got the offer from my doctor years ago, but i never returned to accept it. Reason? horror stories from the internet, mostly.
I am not concerned about temporary side effects at all. What bothers me, is the risk of permanent side effects, which the doctors never tend to warn you about. In this post, i want to discuss one topic that has especially bothered me, and always tilts me to the choice of not taking it.
People tend to look at acne as something "bad". Sure.. the way we look at eachother, the way we're "supposed" to be, acne is bad. But think about it, does the body think the same? Is there ANY relation to acne and illness? Yes Do people with acne die at a younger age? Probably not Is acne really a sign of somehting bad? Yes Is acne actually "toxins from the liver "? No There's NO evidence of this. There is
This is the way humans tend to think. It's a very simple and naive way of thinking that has existed for thousands of years. We experience somehting bad, there must be a reason for it? It hasn't rained for days, it must be the gods punishing us, we must sacrifice something. We're getting acne, we must be doing somehting bad, we must be eating wrong. I don't buy it.
So now, that we you, not we established that acne might not be somehting bad that we have to cure to survive. Maybe we can take away the word "cure". Now lets make a new sentence. "One of the side effects from accutane is that it may permanently destroy the cause of acne". There's no reason that removing acne can't be looked at as a side effect instead of cure. Now , let me challenge you.. Why would the removal of acne after taking accutane, be the only permanent side effect? For this to be permanent, there HAS to be more side effects in your body that is permanent. you've lost me
I think it is great you ask a lot of questions. The problem is the answers you give. Have you really done your research looking into scientific studies linking acne to diseases, risks, cause of acne etc?
I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. You say acne is a sign of something bad? elaborate about that please. I believe if acne was conisdered "pretty", nobody would say acne was a sign of something bad. The body doesn't care if your nose is big, if you lack of hair, or if you have acne.
You answer "no" when i say acne isn't toxins from the liver, then you tell me there are studies about it? Elaborate once again please.
For the last part you wouldn't have lost me if you were open minded and accepted that i said "we" and not "you".
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes 
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
I'm not interested in your emotions, so don't worry. "The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has."
It's considered a disease because it looks ugly, nothing else. If not? then show me some of that science you talk so much about. You want to believe that acne is caused by diet so much. You want it to be that simple. There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet, because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet.
Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this.
So now, that we established that acne might not be somehting bad that we have to cure to survive. Maybe we can take away the word "cure". Now lets make a new sentence. "One of the side effects from accutane is that it may permanently destroy the cause of acne". There's no reason that removing acne can't be looked at as a side effect instead of cure. Now , let me challenge you.. Why would the removal of acne after taking accutane, be the only permanent side effect? For this to be permanent, there HAS to be more side effects in your body that is permanent.
Well said! Accutane wasn't developed to treat acne, but long-term remission of acne was viewed by Roche as a very marketable side effect of a chemotherapy drug.
To paraphrase Janet Woodcock, head of FDA Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, "Any pharmacologically active substance will have side effects." ...It makes sense.
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet,
People in third world countries that don't eat any western foods get acne, too.
But thanks for playing.
See my answer here:
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
I'm not interested in your emotions, so don't worry. "The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has."
It's considered a disease because it looks ugly, nothing else. If not? then show me some of that science you talk so much about. You want to believe that acne is caused by diet so much. You want it to be that simple. There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet, because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet.
Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this.
"It's considered a disease because it looks ugly"
No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up.
"then show me some of that science you talk so much about"
I've listet 20+ links to research articles stating what acne is and how to deal with it, and I've told you where to find them and more. So what are you talking about?
" You want to believe that acne is.."
Are we really having this discussion about beliefs again?
"There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet,"
Who? Where? You do have a article to point me to? Reality is you made that up to.
"because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet. "
What are you talking about? 20+ remember?
"Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this. "
I already did.
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
I'm not interested in your emotions, so don't worry. "The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has."
It's considered a disease because it looks ugly, nothing else. If not? then show me some of that science you talk so much about. You want to believe that acne is caused by diet so much. You want it to be that simple. There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet, because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet.
Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this.
"It's considered a disease because it looks ugly"
No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up.
"then show me some of that science you talk so much about"
I've listet 20+ links to research articles stating what acne is and how to deal with it, and I've told you where to find them and more. So what are you talking about?
" You want to believe that acne is.."
Are we really having this discussion about beliefs again?
"There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet,"
Who? Where? You do have a article to point me to? Reality is you made that up to.
"because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet. "
What are you talking about? 20+ remember?
"Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this. "
I already did.
"Science:
"(..)the Kitavan Islanders of Papua New Guinea and the Ach© hunter-gatherers of Paraguay. Additionally, we analyze how elements in nonwesternized environments may influence the development of acne.(..)Of 1200 Kitavan subjects examined (including 300 aged 15-25 years), no case of acne (grade 1 with multiple comedones or grades 2-4) was observed. Of 115 Ach© subjects examined (including 15 aged 15-25 years) over 843 days, no case of active acne (grades 1-4) was observed." (1) "
Is this supposed to prove me wrong? Some study of an Island of Papa New Guenia? Is this proving that acne is caused by western diet?
" No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up."
Here's their definition of the "disasease ": Acne is a common skin disease characterized by pimples on the face, chest, and back. It occurs when the pores of the skin become clogged with oil, dead skin cells, and bacteria. "
Compare that to the definition of freckles: Any of the small brownish spots on the skin that turn darker or increase in number upon exposure to the sun.
If freckles were considered "ugly", trust me, they would put the word "disease" in that sentence too.
Now let's look at the definition of the word "disease": : an illness that affects a person, animal, or plant : a condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally
It ONLY affect humans because of the way it looks, because of the way we're raised. Link acne to any condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally and you prove that part of my post wrong. If not, then i don't see why you're still responding.
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
I'm not interested in your emotions, so don't worry. "The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has."
It's considered a disease because it looks ugly, nothing else. If not? then show me some of that science you talk so much about. You want to believe that acne is caused by diet so much. You want it to be that simple. There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet, because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet.
Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this.
"It's considered a disease because it looks ugly"
No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up.
"then show me some of that science you talk so much about"
I've listet 20+ links to research articles stating what acne is and how to deal with it, and I've told you where to find them and more. So what are you talking about?
" You want to believe that acne is.."
Are we really having this discussion about beliefs again?
"There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet,"
Who? Where? You do have a article to point me to? Reality is you made that up to.
"because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet. "
What are you talking about? 20+ remember?
"Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this. "
I already did.
"Science:
"(..)the Kitavan Islanders of Papua New Guinea and the Ach© hunter-gatherers of Paraguay. Additionally, we analyze how elements in nonwesternized environments may influence the development of acne.(..)Of 1200 Kitavan subjects examined (including 300 aged 15-25 years), no case of acne (grade 1 with multiple comedones or grades 2-4) was observed. Of 115 Ach© subjects examined (including 15 aged 15-25 years) over 843 days, no case of active acne (grades 1-4) was observed." (1) "
Is this supposed to prove me wrong? Some study of an Island of Papa New Guenia? Is this proving that acne is caused by western diet?
" No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up."
Here's their definition of the "disasease ": Acne is a common skin disease characterized by pimples on the face, chest, and back. It occurs when the pores of the skin become clogged with oil, dead skin cells, and bacteria. "
Compare that to the definition of freckles: Any of the small brownish spots on the skin that turn darker or increase in number upon exposure to the sun.
If freckles were considered "ugly", trust me, they would put the word "disease" in that sentence too.
Now let's look at the definition of the word "disease": : an illness that affects a person, animal, or plant : a condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally
It ONLY affect humans because of the way it looks, because of the way we're raised. Link acne to any condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally and you prove that part of my post wrong. If not, then i don't see why you're still responding.
""Is this supposed to prove me wrong?"
The study was an answers to Lucas when he replied "People in third world countries that don't eat any western foods get acne, too."
"Now let's look at the definition of the word "disease":
The definition you use is from a non-medical source. The following is from a medical source: Definition A
"1. An interruption, cessation, or disorder of a body, system, or organ structure or function. 2. A morbid entity ordinarily characterized by two or more of the following recognized etiologic agent(s), identifiable group of signs and symptoms, or consistent anatomic alterations.
Another one:
Definition B
"any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptomsand signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown"
" Link acne to any condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally and you prove that part of my post wrong"
I do not see any reason to do this when the definition you use has little to do with the medical term 'disease'.
"I see you answer my questions pretty short with no explanation. " Yes
If you read my posts, first this one:
Then my answers here:
Then this one:
You will then know what acne is, how acne is formed from diet to 5AR to DHT to triglycerides and VLDL to sebum and inflammation, from PI3K/akt to PPARs and CREB from mTOR to comedogensis and so on. You will know what certain types of diseases is related to acne, risk factors etc. and you will know how to fix acne for most people (with exception of a few, like the ones who get medicine induced acne, eg. from lithium and other prescripts drugs)
If you need more info, you can read all the research I have linked to, and by then if you still need more I will answer every question thoroughly.
It is also a great idea to have a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanistic_target_of_rapamycin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PI3K/AKT/mTOR_pathway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CREB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor
I read through your posts and i'm sure you have a lot of knowledge about acne. However, i have read most of this before, and i don't believe it's that simple. I know people that have gone vegan for 1-2 + years, and still have problems with acne. So that "western diet equals acne" isn't valid enough. What would you tell the vegans ? That it's stress that causes it? and if it's not stress, then its the air that does it?`What do i think? I think it's the DNA, i think it's the same reason that some people have bigger nose than others.
Do i believe that diet affects diseases like diabetes? ofc i do, but that is a "disease". Acne is only a "disease" because we don't like the colour of it.
I would also like to talk about "toxins" . This word is very vague and is not a word that was in use for some time ago. Reason? Nobody has seen this "toxic". tell me.. what colour does it have? Is it a liquid? Are humans able to see it?
The thing about science is that it is never about 'believes' and 'feelings'. Science isn't about someone 'you know' science doesn't care what we 'think'. All of this is actually the beauty of science and why we do not live in the middle ages. So from a scientific perspective most acne is caused by western diet, but maybe for you it is due to something else and to others it is caused by everything from weather to god and devil and evil goblins in dark forests or alien invasions and so on.
The thing about 'someone you know' is that everyone has a perspective of what is healthy and what is not. Vegan diets doesn't necessarily equals health you know.
Who deicide what a disease is? You? Me? Or the FDA and WHO? Have you heard of DSM and ICD. The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has.
If you want to talk about feelings, I am really not the one to talk to. Like science, I really don't care what you feel. I just want to help people getting rid of acne, like I did and a lot more on this forum from changing our diets.
I'm not interested in your emotions, so don't worry. "The ICD-10 code for acne is L70 and yes it is a disease, regardless of what you feel or what color you think it has."
It's considered a disease because it looks ugly, nothing else. If not? then show me some of that science you talk so much about. You want to believe that acne is caused by diet so much. You want it to be that simple. There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet, because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet.
Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this.
"It's considered a disease because it looks ugly"
No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up.
"then show me some of that science you talk so much about"
I've listet 20+ links to research articles stating what acne is and how to deal with it, and I've told you where to find them and more. So what are you talking about?
" You want to believe that acne is.."
Are we really having this discussion about beliefs again?
"There's a reason most doctors says acne has no / or just some relation to diet,"
Who? Where? You do have a article to point me to? Reality is you made that up to.
"because there's no evidence that acne is caused by diet. "
What are you talking about? 20+ remember?
"Prove me wrong, with science if you will. Thats the point of this. "
I already did.
"Science:
"(..)the Kitavan Islanders of Papua New Guinea and the Ach© hunter-gatherers of Paraguay. Additionally, we analyze how elements in nonwesternized environments may influence the development of acne.(..)Of 1200 Kitavan subjects examined (including 300 aged 15-25 years), no case of acne (grade 1 with multiple comedones or grades 2-4) was observed. Of 115 Ach© subjects examined (including 15 aged 15-25 years) over 843 days, no case of active acne (grades 1-4) was observed." (1) "
Is this supposed to prove me wrong? Some study of an Island of Papa New Guenia? Is this proving that acne is caused by western diet?
" No? Do you think the World Health Organisation works that way?
WHO has a clear definition of what acne is. They don't say a word about pretty and ugly. So reality is you made that up."
Here's their definition of the "disasease ": Acne is a common skin disease characterized by pimples on the face, chest, and back. It occurs when the pores of the skin become clogged with oil, dead skin cells, and bacteria. "
Compare that to the definition of freckles: Any of the small brownish spots on the skin that turn darker or increase in number upon exposure to the sun.
If freckles were considered "ugly", trust me, they would put the word "disease" in that sentence too.
Now let's look at the definition of the word "disease": : an illness that affects a person, animal, or plant : a condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally
It ONLY affect humans because of the way it looks, because of the way we're raised. Link acne to any condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally and you prove that part of my post wrong. If not, then i don't see why you're still responding.
""Is this supposed to prove me wrong?"
The study was an answers to Lucas when he replied "People in third world countries that don't eat any western foods get acne, too."
"Now let's look at the definition of the word "disease":
The definition you use is from a non-medical source. The following is from a medical source: Definition A
"1. An interruption, cessation, or disorder of a body, system, or organ structure or function. 2. A morbid entity ordinarily characterized by two or more of the following recognized etiologic agent(s), identifiable group of signs and symptoms, or consistent anatomic alterations.
Another one:
Definition B
"any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptomsand signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown"
" Link acne to any condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally and you prove that part of my post wrong"
I do not see any reason to do this when the definition you use has little to do with the medical term 'disease'.
Freckles would fit perfectly in the definitions you gave me. If acne isn't a condition that prevents the body or mind from working normally, then what is there to cure? Acne is only a cosmetic issue.
Acne is a disease because of the fact that certain aspects of your body, or in this case pores, are not working as intended for a "normal" body. You could say that crazy people are normal and they're only crazy because they're a minority. Just because acne is inherited and has the ability to become a "normal" everyday sight does not make it any less of a disease. Pores are not supposed to be plugged,skin is not supposed to under exfoliate itself. Some forms of acne cause physical pain, discomfort, distort the quality of life emotionally. Also, I have no idea why you need to compare acne to freckles. I don't know of anyone who has had they're ability to see compromised because of a giant freckle under their eye but i have seen photos of individuals who have their vision blocked from an acne cyst under their eye.
acne is also caused by an unhealthy strain of P.Acnes bacteria, if not for that bacteria people would not present with that disease.
Acne is a disease because of the fact that certain aspects of your body, or in this case pores, are not working as intended for a "normal" body. You could say that crazy people are normal and they're only crazy because they're a minority. Just because acne is inherited and has the ability to become a "normal" everyday sight does not make it any less of a disease. Pores are not supposed to be plugged,skin is not supposed to under exfoliate itself. Some forms of acne cause physical pain, discomfort, distort the quality of life emotionally. Also, I have no idea why you need to compare acne to freckles. I don't know of anyone who has had they're ability to see compromised because of a giant freckle under their eye but i have seen photos of individuals who have their vision blocked from an acne cyst under their eye.
acne is also caused by an unhealthy strain of P.Acnes bacteria, if not for that bacteria people would not present with that disease.
It's funny how 50% of the people here didn't even understand the meaninig of this post. Let me try to explain this. When we are talking about a medicine and a cure to a disease, you want that medicine to get rid of it forever. Or else, it wouldn't be called "cure". You take antibiotics to get rid of bacteria. In most cases, this bacteria is something that your body doesn't naturally produce. After the treatment of antibiotics, this bacteria wont return to your body, That is the purpose of a cure. Now lets talk about acne and accutane. Accutane also gets rid of something we call a disease, acne. However.. there's a big difference from getting a paracite out of your body and acne "cured".
"Disesase" is just a word. We can go with that, it doesn't matter. I just want people with acne to realise that your body produces it naturally. Maybe you can increase/decrease it with diet, but it's still a natural process for your body as of now. Now to the point: Accutane must therefore make a cut in the bodys process in order to stop the acne. This process is natural for the body like i mentioned, therefore "curing" the acne, may aswell be called a "sideffect". If accutane works as it should, the acne will not return, in other words, this is a permanent side effect. For me, it doesn't make much sense that this side effect would be the only permanent one after taking accutane. There's just no way , especially when this wasn't even made to get rid of acne in the first place. Unlike a cure to get rid of a paracite, this cure is more like an operation in the body where you destroy something. We just don't know exactly what it is.
THIS ladies and gentlemen, is what makes me so afraid of taking accutane.
I hear you Moisturer. Your argument is sound and an eloquent analysis of acne and it's perception in today's society. But, you're wasting your time. With teenagers at least. I'm fairly confident that in the medical world the consensus is that acne is a genetic predisposition and accutane is known to affect some sort of the steroid hormone gene transcription process..
Yes, Esney3, acne by definition can be considered a "disease", albeit more so when it causes malformation of skin tissue, I would think. But, acne transcends race AND sex. So, the idea of a diet being the sole cause of acne has a very low probability. Can diet affect acne? Of course it can. On an individual case by case basis, several environmental factors can be found to cause a persons acne.
Heck, even Obesity (another "disease"), which is heavily influenced by diet, is not thought of as the only root cause. Again, genetic factors play a part. You can read any recently written medical article/journal on that Esney3. You can max out your science brain all you want. But, what you can't do is try to use a few medical journals and articles (what are the dates on them?) as a black and white, set in stone, proponent of whatever it is you are posting about (diet, disease?).
Heck, some scientist out there could purport that the Asian race was a "disease" on humanity because of genetic abnormalities that hinder vision and size/stature. I really don't have the mental capacity to begin to interpret human evolution, but I'm sure someone out there has or will come up with what appears to be an evidence based theory on what constitutes an ideal human being. Humanity itself could be considered a "disease" on the Planet.
You see what I'm getting at? That's both the beauty and beast of science, in some regard. Not to say you shouldn't keep striving to increase your knowledge of the world. Try and be more optimistic. Work with people, rather than against them.
And yes, you can say things like "I think" on a forum or "I feel" because we are not writing a thesis statement for school. But, I assure you, if it was between you and Moisturer to come up with your OWN hypothesis, and write a report on it, he/she would win. So, try and be more open minded, you are in the presence of an intelligent passionate human being (moisturer)..
Accutane doest destroy the cause of acne,it shrinks the gland but after you're off the gland will SLOWLY grow back. That is why some people experienced acne relapse,and others experienced full remission because they have already outgrow the acne
And how exactly does it shrink the oil glands? Nobody seems to know the exact answer to this. You say that the gland will "SLOWLY" return, yes and if it does, so will the acne, and then it's not permanent. If the oil gland doesn't come back, then i'm sure we can agree that we can use the term "destroyed, right?
Merch appears to fabricate his own facts regarding mechanism of action of Accutane and possible effects. but let's ask some experts.
An example of Accutane permanently altering the structure and function of a type of sebaceous gland, the meibomian gland:
A. Moy, N. A. McNamara, and M. C. Lin, Effects of Isotretinoin on Meibomian Glands, Optom Vis Sci, vol. 92, no. 9, pp. 925930, Sep. 2015.
The available literature indicates that isotretinoins effect on the meibomian glands likely mimics its effects on the sebaceous glands of the skin in the treatment of acne...
...Currently, there is no definitive method to restore the structure and function of damaged meibomian glands; thus, treatment options for isotretinoin-associated meibomian gland dysfunction are primarily palliative to manage patient symptoms.
Not so sure I would want to jump on a treatment for a cosmetic condition that requires "pallative care" to manage the side effects.
I'm sorry i might hv some misunderstanding of this accutane. i took it on 2009, after a year a mild form of acne came back and then this year 2015 my skin has returned to where it was before accutane. I asked a derm about it and he said yes the gland will start to grow back and if you still didnt outgrow the acne by the time it returns to normal you will suffer with acne again. So now i'm only on low dose(20mg)/day (i'm 70kg btw)and he planned to put me on topical retinoid for maintenance after 4-5 months of this low dose accutane
