I agree with some of the things you posted. I guess the official term is "oxidative stress".

This is why I say that it's not just about diet.. It's about portion control as well, although I don't think this applies to everyone. I sure feel like it applies to me though..

I incorporated salmon in my diet daily which I think helps me out as well. Also, I actually do take some good whey protein that's gluten free, although I'm not sure if it's grass fed.. along with glutamine as I heard it's supposed to help bowel movements.

Anyway, interesting post! Will do my own research when I have time.

First, let me just say that you do have a case with the oils, and many have speculated into the components of omega 39 and what it does to acne to have an abundance of 6 rather than 3 for an acne-prone person. Moreover, what happens when consuming vegetable oils when heated, and if they become damaged (which is often, if not using coconut oil), it is very possible that they can cause oxidative stress (just the thing I was arguing). Diet and lifestyle to decrease how much oxidative stress we put ourselves through is important but for some it might not be enough. This is where I argue for the role of antioxidants. In short, my argument was never that you should substitute a healthy diet, no, it was to add to it.

You say: "First of all, I have to question your sanity when you say that "this would be good for ANY disease"...I'm not too sure about that one. Sure, less oxidative stress and more antioxidants is certainly better for the most part but you can't just take a single-pronged approach to all diseases. The factors that may be significant in one disease may not be in another."

Are you kidding? Yes that is exactly what I mean. Not that it will 'cure' every auto-immune disease; but that it will help to get back to your normal glutathione level and SOD level and decrease oxidative stress in your body. You think, personally, that it wouldn't? Please show me actually research where there was a group of patients being studied with some disease and had excellent SOD and glutathione levels, as well as minimal oxidative/nitrosative stress factors present (then I would have to agree with your statement that I am 'insane'). It is not like, "yes come here this is where all your problems come from". No I am saying that it is peculiar that it seems that there is a lack of antioxidants, to fight an abundance of oxidative stress factors and it is making it harder to fight acne, asthma, thyroid problems or whatever.

"The problem about whey though is that it's dairy."

- Raw grass-fed dairy does not pose the same problem, and you would have known that if you would have taken the time to read what I actually wrote. It is the milk you buy at the grocery store that most people with acne can't handle. (Me personally, though, have never had a problem with milk regardless where it came from)

"Glutathione needs several building blocks for its production. I agree though..supplements would not be the answer because stomach acid destroys any valuable content. This all comes back to diet, again."

- where did you find this? This is what I said about SOD. Yes this could be a complication, but whey (grass-fed) might be a solution (this is actually an argument though and if you would have wanted so badly to refute what I had just said then this would be an excellent way to build up something concrete). Also, I said about managing 'stress levels' by yoga or meditation, eating healthy (obviously), and eating gelatin that comes from bones of grass-fed animals (component amino acids for glutathione) and perhaps you can combine this with NAC. I never said, yes lets pill-pop. Please listen to everything I have to say.

I get that you think it is oils, you have said that it several posts, and I agree to an extent. Although, when asked why people still have acne when they do not consume omega 6 vegetable oils (I'm guessing that you mean oxidized damaged vegetable oils) you have no answer. I don't think this goes for everyone. But, if you could successfully increase antioxidant levels, and decrease oxidative stress (oils do play a part here since they do contribute to inflammation) you might actually get somewhere.

Please understand that I only wanted to share what I found, if you do not like what I have found, or it isn't consistent with your own ideas you are free to ignore all of this.

I do not have enough information to agree with the rest of your text. I have no idea if they 'know' or not, but I do not think it is that easy. I think there is more to the story. It is not like people want to hear 'exercise more' and never eat anything else than vegetables and fruit. Some can't follow these regulations, and what we sometimes do here is nearly impossible. All in the name of acne.

First of all, I have to question your sanity when you say that "this would be good for ANY disease"...I'm not too sure about that one. Sure, less oxidative stress and more antioxidants is certainly better for the most part but you can't just take a single-pronged approach to all diseases. The factors that may be significant in one disease may not be in another.

The problem about whey though is that it's dairy.

Glutathione needs several building blocks for its production. I agree though..supplements would not be the answer because stomach acid destroys any valuable content. This all comes back to diet, again.

Also...remember when I mentioned PUFAs? In that chart you had...Malondialdehyde is a product of PUFA degradation and oxidation in the body..I find that one particularly interesting (I've seen his chart before). For this reason and several others, I would have to disagree with you about recommending EPA and DHA and fish oils.

What I'm saying overall is that, the medical community acknowledges that diet plays a role, but they don't suspect or wont admit its the PUFAs in our food supply, because in the western world, people believe that these fats are healthy. What I'm getting at is the opposite, that they are not, and that saturated fat is not the bad guy that everyone thinks it is.

Think of it this way: Lays potato chips have a variety of vegetable/seed oils in the ingredients. Check this out for yourself. People break out from junk food like this. Would you say that these are healthy?

We know this: PUFAs are unstable because they are unsaturated. We also know that free radicals are unstable and cause damage. So, why in the hell would anyone think these are healthy? They sound pretty similar to me.

I'll gladly play the role of the 'conspiracy' guy, if no one else wants to. Have been for a while, actually.

It seems to be that industry only wants to "manage" the problem - and banking on it in the process. You mean to tell me that they know malondialdehyde levels are high in people with acne, but they don't know that it's a product of PUFA degradation? I would have to slap somebody there...

Personally I think the medical industry already knows what the real problem is. They probably just don't want to admit it. That's also probably why dermatologists seem to keep refusing to admit that it's diet to their patients. "Yeah, diet has nothing to do with it.". What benefit would they have to? They would lose a ton of business...approximately $3 billion worth yearly. You can't sell somebody a healthy lifestyle and diet.

Consider this: They seem to be able to develop and market the 'Accutane' drug, which is widely known to be VERY effective...but they don't know what the cause of acne is? I smell bullshit here. I want to be wrong though.

Who sets the recommendations for our diets? The government. When they do, they have a LOT of power in this respect.

Not to get too far out here, but honestly, government and high powers can keep just about anything hidden that they don't want known - probably with the swipe of a pen. Mass manipulation is not new to the 21st century..

Pretty dark stuff to think about though.

The thing that gives me hope that they really don't know is the fact that some people don't get the condition even when eating badly. Although that most likely just has to do with predisposition.

First of all, I have to question your sanity when you say that "this would be good for ANY disease"...I'm not too sure about that one. Sure, less oxidative stress and more antioxidants is certainly better for the most part but you can't just take a single-pronged approach to all diseases. The factors that may be significant in one disease may not be in another.

The problem about whey though is that it's dairy.

Glutathione needs several building blocks for its production. I agree though..supplements would not be the answer because stomach acid destroys any valuable content. This all comes back to diet, again.

Also...remember when I mentioned PUFAs? In that chart you had...Malondialdehyde is a product of PUFA degradation and oxidation in the body..I find that one particularly interesting (I've seen his chart before). For this reason and several others, I would have to disagree with you about recommending EPA and DHA and fish oils.

What I'm saying overall is that, the medical community acknowledges that diet plays a role, but they don't suspect or wont admit its the PUFAs in our food supply, because in the western world, people believe that these fats are healthy. What I'm getting at is the opposite, that they are not, and that saturated fat is not the bad guy that everyone thinks it is.

Think of it this way: Lays potato chips have a variety of vegetable/seed oils in the ingredients. Check this out for yourself. People break out from junk food like this. Would you say that these are healthy?

We know this: PUFAs are unstable because they are unsaturated. We also know that free radicals are unstable and cause damage. So, why in the hell would anyone think these are healthy? They sound pretty similar to me.

I'll gladly play the role of the 'conspiracy' guy, if no one else wants to. Have been for a while, actually.

It seems to be that industry only wants to "manage" the problem - and banking on it in the process. You mean to tell me that they know malondialdehyde levels are high in people with acne, but they don't know that it's a product of PUFA degradation? I would have to slap somebody there...

Personally I think the medical industry already knows what the real problem is. They probably just don't want to admit it. That's also probably why dermatologists seem to keep refusing to admit that it's diet to their patients. "Yeah, diet has nothing to do with it.". What benefit would they have to? They would lose a ton of business...approximately $3 billion worth yearly. You can't sell somebody a healthy lifestyle and diet.

Consider this: They seem to be able to develop and market the 'Accutane' drug, which is widely known to be VERY effective...but they don't know what the cause of acne is? I smell bullshit here. I want to be wrong though.

Who sets the recommendations for our diets? The government. When they do, they have a LOT of power in this respect.

Not to get too far out here, but honestly, government and high powers can keep just about anything hidden that they don't want known - probably with the swipe of a pen. Mass manipulation is not new to the 21st century...

HELLO, Obamacare...*jonathan gruber on the show*....so, jonathan, would you mind elaborating on why the "american voter is stupid"? Corporate deception is far more of a disease than acne will ever be, and it's been going on about just as long. Gotta "tax the stupid", right? Just like the lottery does, and probably, our dietary recommendations too.

Pretty dark stuff to think about though.

The thing that gives me hope that they really don't know is the fact that some people don't get the condition even when eating badly. Although that most likely just has to do with predisposition.

I've read some articles stating that PUFAs do cause oxidation which can cause inflammation and wreak havoc in our system, but their still has to be more research. The reason I say this is because, I'm Japanese, the Japanese diet consists of myriads of different kinds of seafood, especially FISH. In fact, fish is a staple in our diet, usually almost every meal is associated with some kind of fish. Japan is a very materialistic society much like S. Korea. In terms of beauty, achieving perfect skin is a must. If you take a trip to Japan you'll be quite shocked to see that most of the people have clear skin. Now, I'm not saying every Japanese person has clear perfect skin, but the majority do, and I'm pretty sure diet is a huge contributor. Maybe it's makeup? Haha, doubt it, guys here are not as metro sexual as the S. Korean counterparts.

Maybe it's just genetics? Maybe we metabolize PUFAs differently. Maybe it's because our diet is much healthier compared to a westernized diet. Maybe it's because daily consumption of green tea in Japan is a cultural norm. Or maybe our antioxidant heavy diet counteracts the negative action potential of PUFAs oxidation? I don't know, what I do know is that their is too much variables in play to determine whether this or that is the genesis of acne. We are all different. We all have a different case in the battle against acne. We have different lifestyles, diets, stress, etc.

I do agree though that PUFAs can contribute in forming acne, I've read articles stating this, but their is still too much variables that interact with each other differently to conclude that we should avoid taking Fish oils supplements and anything PUFAs related entirely. With all the variables in play, it's imperative to have a balanced healthy diet.

And that chart that shows antioxidant levels is very interesting. I supplement a handful of antioxidants like: white tea, mathca tea, vitamin C, turmeric, muscadine grape seeds, and astaxanthin daily. And if you calculate the ORAC value of my daily consumption of antioxidants, it easily surpasses 600,000 ¼ mol TE (micromoles of Trolox Equivalents), and that's not even counting antioxidants from ingestion of fruits and vegetables. Maybe their is a connection with antioxidant levels in the system and acne. Maybe that's why I'm clear for the most part. And seeing that the westernized diet is usually dearth of antioxidants, it's reasonable to see why acne is prevalent in westernized society. Interesting read, I haven't seen a study about antioxidants and acne. More research is definitely needed.

And antioxidants are actually VERY effective in fighting certain diseases such as cancer. Their have been numerous studies showing that antioxidants fight cancer growth and in some cases even irradiate cancer entirely. And cancer is a very broad term for a plethora of diseases of the human body.

EDIT: I've just re-read your post and I'm finally starting to understand a little about the relationship between oxidative stress and acne.

As for Gluthatione, I've heard that Broccoli sprouts are one of the highest sources of it. But you must be careful with it since it can get to toxic levels very easily. You can't have too much of anything, even good things.

 

I've done some research and this is what I've learnt:

• Acne Causes
  • Types of Acne
    • hormonal imbalance (e.g. puberty, menstrual cycle, pregnancy, some adults)
      • Function of hormones
        • Increase sebum production

        •  

        • Increase skin cell growth

        •  

        • Prevent skin cell separation after death

        •  

        • Increase inflammatory response to P. Acnes bacteria in blocked pores

        •  

      •  

    •  

    • Inflammatory acne (e.g. gut/autoimmune disorder and other health problems that increase inflammation)

    •  

    • acne-prone skin[polygenic, main cause of acne] (sensitive to irritation and acne causing hormones even at normal level; different colony of P.Acnes bacteria compared to those with clear skin)

    •  

    • Combination of above

    •  

  •  

  • Root cause of acne
    • mTor molecule (affects hormonal type acne), DHT, Hormones (Androgen, Insulin, IGF-1)

    •  

    • acne sufferers tend to have different formation of P.Acnes bacteria strains compares to those with clear skin; they tend to have more bad and less good P.Acnes bacteria. Good P.Acnes bacteria protects against the formation of acne. And those with clear skin also has a unique P.Acnes bacteria that's not present in those with acne-prone skin.

    •  

    • hormonal imbalance (acne causing hormones are androgen, Insulin and IGF-1. However, acne sufferers usually have similar hormone levels to those with clear skin, so what's different is that acne sufferer's acne-prone skin is more sensitive to those hormones)
      • I personally think hormones aren't the main cause of acne but it just aggravates it. If that was true, than majority of teenagers would get acne. The main cause is probably acne-prone skin.

      •  

    •  

    • few studies show that acne sufferer's overall systematic inflammation(oxidative stress) in body is higher and have lower levels of anti-inflammatory antioxidant vitamins and enzymes compared to non-acne sufferers - why? I don't know.

    •  

    • acne-prone skin also mounts an excessively strong immune response against P. Acnes bacteria

    •  

    • genes make acne-prone skin more sensitive acne causing hormones

    •  

  •  

  • Hypothetical Treatment
    • temporary or permanently shrink sebaceous gland size through topical cream or laser treatment?

    •  

    • reduce overall inflammation in body with antioxidant supplement/drug? (NAC, high quality green tea etc.)

    •  

    • topical cream to increase the good P.Acnes bacteria and reduce the bad P.Acnes bacteria?
      • Permanently change the colony of P.Acnes bacteria on the skin especially where acne tends to grow? (Probably not possible to change the colony permanently since your P.Acnes bacteria colony is governed my your skin's genes.)
        • fix hormonal imbalance (not possible in males and probably a bad idea since you're messing with your natural bodily function.)

        •  

        • reduce immune system's response to P.Acnes bacteria? (probably not possible unless through hard drugs like Accutane)

        •  

        • viral drug to kill bad P.Acnes bacteria? (research found a virus that kills only the bad P.Acnes bacteria)

        •  

      •  

      • Options to treat Acne as of 2014
        • topical cream, diet and lifestyle changes (if you can put up with daily topical cream, strict diet and lifestyle change, you might not need to go on Accutane.)
          • Diet to reduce acne
            • Reduction of overall caloric intake

            •  

            • Reduction of high glycemic index carbohydrates

            •  

            • Reduction of dairy products

            •  

            • Reduction of leucine-rich proteins

            •  

            • Omega 3 fatty acids

            •  

            • Vitamin D3

            •  

            • Food high in zinc, vitamin E, A, C

            •  

            • High quality green tea

            •  

          •  

          • List of Topical gel (make sure it's in a gel form since cream form is comedogenic)
            • Antibiotic
              • Clindamycin

              •  

              • Benzoyl Peroxode 2.5%

              •  

              • Aczone(Dapsone)

              •  

              • Sodium Sulfacetamide

              •  

            •  

            • Retinoid
              • Differin (Adapalene)

              •  

              • Tretinoin 0.5mg

              •  

              • Tazorotine

              •  

              • Retin-A Micro

              •  

            •  

            • Combination (Antibiotic & Retinoid)
              • Duac

              •  

              • Benzaclin

              •  

              • Epiduo

              •  

            •  

          •  

        •  

        • Wait for safer/more effective future treatments for acne if you can deal with the severity of acne that you have now

        •  

        • Wait until you might grow out of acne until the age of 30 if you can deal with the severity of acne that you have now (statistically, most people tend to grow out of acne between the age of 24 - 30)

        •  

        • Birth Control (only for females)

        •  

        • Oral Antibioic

        •  

        • Laser Treatment (current technology is not reliable?)

        •  

        • Accutane (long-term remission or possibly a cure)

        •  

      •  

    •  

Their needs to be a way we can edify this to the general acne sufferers. This is excellent information about the different causations of acne and ways to ameliorate it. This is almost identical to the regimen I abide with. Everyone needs to absorb this valuable information; very useful information indeed.

maybe.

 

I've done some research and this is what I've learnt:

• Acne Causes
  • Types of Acne
    • hormonal imbalance (e.g. puberty, menstrual cycle, pregnancy, some adults)
      • Function of hormones
        • Increase sebum production

        •  

        • Increase skin cell growth

        •  

        • Prevent skin cell separation after death

        •  

        • Increase inflammatory response to P. Acnes bacteria in blocked pores

        •  

      •  

    •  

    • Inflammatory acne (e.g. bowel/autoimmune disorder and other health problems that increases inflammation in the body)

    •  

    • acne-prone skin[polygenic, main cause of acne] (sensitive to irritation and acne causing hormones even at normal level; different colony of P.Acnes bacteria compared to those with clear skin)

    •  

    • Combination of above

    •  

  •  

  • Root cause of acne
    • mTor molecule (affects hormonal type acne), DHT, Hormones (Androgen, Insulin, IGF-1)

    •  

    • acne sufferers tend to have different formation of P.Acnes bacteria strains compares to those with clear skin; they tend to have more bad and less good P.Acnes bacteria. Good P.Acnes bacteria protects against the formation of acne. And those with clear skin also has a unique P.Acnes bacteria that's not present in those with acne-prone skin.

    •  

    • hormonal imbalance (acne causing hormones are androgen, Insulin and IGF-1. However, acne sufferers usually have similar hormone levels to those with clear skin, so what's different is that acne sufferer's acne-prone skin is more sensitive to those hormones)
      • I personally think hormones aren't the main cause of acne but it just aggravates it. If that was true, than majority of teenagers would get acne. The main cause is probably acne-prone skin.

      •  

    •  

    • few studies show that acne sufferer's overall systematic inflammation(oxidative stress) in body is higher and have lower levels of anti-inflammatory antioxidant vitamins and enzymes compared to non-acne sufferers - why? I don't know.

    •  

    • acne-prone skin also mounts an excessively strong immune response against P. Acnes bacteria

    •  

    • genes make acne-prone skin more sensitive acne causing hormones

    •  

  •  

  • Hypothetical Treatment
    • temporary or permanently shrink sebaceous gland size through topical cream or laser treatment?

    •  

    • reduce overall inflammation in body with antioxidant supplement/drug? (NAC, high quality green tea etc.)

    •  

    • topical cream to increase the good P.Acnes bacteria and reduce the bad P.Acnes bacteria?
      • Permanently change the colony of P.Acnes bacteria on the skin especially where acne tends to grow? (Probably not possible to change the colony permanently since your P.Acnes bacteria colony is governed my your skin's genes.)
        • fix hormonal imbalance (not possible in males and probably a bad idea since you're messing with your natural bodily function.)

        •  

        • reduce immune system's response to P.Acnes bacteria? (probably not possible unless through hard drugs like Accutane)

        •  

        • viral drug to kill bad P.Acnes bacteria? (research found a virus that kills only the bad P.Acnes bacteria)

        •  

      •  

      • Options to treat Acne as of 2014
        • topical cream, diet and lifestyle changes (if you can put up with daily topical cream, strict diet and lifestyle change, you might not need to go on Accutane.)
          • Diet to reduce acne
            • Reduction of overall caloric intake

            •  

            • Reduction of high glycemic index carbohydrates

            •  

            • Reduction of dairy products

            •  

            • Reduction of leucine-rich proteins

            •  

            • Omega 3 fatty acids

            •  

            • Vitamin D3

            •  

            • Food high in zinc, vitamin E, A, C

            •  

            • High quality green tea

            •  

          •  

          • List of Topical gel (make sure it's in a gel form since cream form is comedogenic)
            • Antibiotic
              • Clindamycin

              •  

              • Benzoyl Peroxode 2.5%

              •  

              • Aczone(Dapsone)

              •  

              • Sodium Sulfacetamide

              •  

            •  

            • Retinoid
              • Differin (Adapalene)

              •  

              • Tazorotine

              •  

              • Retin-A Micro

              •  

              • Tretinoin

              •  

              • Isotrex

              •  

            •  

            • Combination (Antibiotic & Retinoid)
              • Duac

              •  

              • Benzaclin

              •  

              • Epiduo

              •  

            •  

          •  

        •  

        • Wait for safer/more effective future treatments for acne if you can deal with the severity of acne that you have now

        •  

        • Wait until you might grow out of acne until the age of 30 if you can deal with the severity of acne that you have now (statistically, most people tend to grow out of acne between the age of 24 - 30)

        •  

        • Birth Control (only for females)

        •  

        • Oral Antibioic (this is the next step if topical gel, dietary and lifestyle changes doesn't work for your type of acne. Although Antibiotics doesn't cure acne, you can cycle through it until you *hopefully* grow out of acne. The side effects are also less severe compared to Accutane at least for me)

        •  

        • Laser Treatment (current technology is not reliable?)

        •  

        • Accutane (provides long-term remission or possibly a cure but you need to carefully assess the risk and reward since this is a very heavy duty drug)

        •  

      •  

    •  

Question: Why do some people only get acne on back, cheek, neck etc. Is it because there's bad colony of P.Acnes bacteria only in those places? Or larger sebaceous glands(producing more oil) in those places compared to other places?

Maybe certain areas become damaged and therefore P.acnes can thrive there more easily. That is why if you have a big breakout because of some reason, you continue to get breakouts there until that area can heal which it never does until you get control of the acne to begin with. Just a thought though.

Inflammatory acne (e.g. gut/autoimmune disorder and other health problems that increase inflammation)

few studies show that acne sufferer's overall systematic inflammation(oxidative stress) in body is higher and have lower levels of anti-inflammatory antioxidant vitamins and enzymes compared to non-acne sufferers - why? I don't know.

What about the gut connection? Couldnt there be a connection between lack of antioxidants and gut problems, in that they do not properly digest? And if so, how could we change that? There is an idea of this IGg test (food intolerances). I havent tried it, but this is how this girl (Thelovevitamin.com) got control of hers. It is super expensive, but it might really help inflammatory acne if these foods create some sort of inflammatory reaction in the body, and somehow impair the absorption of nutrients = less antioxidants. I havent searched for any research on this yet though.

The question is why only some with stomach problems have acne while some do not, hinting at genes. Maybe other people get eczema or something else, or nothing. We react differently.

reduce overall inflammation in body with antioxidant supplement/drug? (NAC, high quality green tea etc.)

people have been drinking green tea a lot o help acne and it has actually helped, just seems really odd that we somehow have the ability to absorb this but not vitamins, at least not enough.

I started using Vaseline on my skin at night, and since then I have never had acne form during the night. One month before I started Accutane this is what I tried, and it calmed my skin down a lot. Probably by 50%. Why? I still use it every night and I never get acne during the night. When I do get acne, it is only during the day. Dermatologists keep saying that it is going to cause acne so I really dont get it.