Hi - I hope some of you will be able to help me!
I started taking a Vitex tincture (Agnus Castus Vitex) a month ago to try to clear my hormonal acne. It has already helped a lot which is wonderful.
But unfortunately, I am starting to lose lots of hair! Appearently hair loss is a quite common side effect of Vitex.
Now my question: Does anyone know why Vitex causes hair loss for some people?
This will help me decide whether I should stop taking the remedy immidiately or I have to wait and see if it's just initial imbalances and hormonal confusion that will wean off.
Hi - I hope some of you will be able to help me!
I started taking a Vitex tincture (Agnus Castus Vitex) a month ago to try to clear my hormonal acne. It has already helped a lot which is wonderful.
But unfortunately, I am starting to lose lots of hair! Appearently hair loss is a quite common side effect of Vitex.
Now my question: Does anyone know why Vitex causes hair loss for some people?
This will help me decide whether I should stop taking the remedy immidiately or I have to wait and see if it's just initial imbalances and hormonal confusion that will wean off.
Vitex inhibits aromatase. In other words it slows the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and pushes metabolism toward dht. DHT can increase body/facial hair but cause the hair on the top of your head to thin. It's called androgenic alopecia.
As long as DHT is elevated you could continue to lose your hair. Over the long term it may cause hair to grow in areas you may not like.
Hi - I hope some of you will be able to help me!
I started taking a Vitex tincture (Agnus Castus Vitex) a month ago to try to clear my hormonal acne. It has already helped a lot which is wonderful.
But unfortunately, I am starting to lose lots of hair! Appearently hair loss is a quite common side effect of Vitex.
Now my question: Does anyone know why Vitex causes hair loss for some people?
This will help me decide whether I should stop taking the remedy immidiately or I have to wait and see if it's just initial imbalances and hormonal confusion that will wean off.
Vitex inhibits aromatase. In other words it slows the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and pushes metabolism toward dht. DHT can increase body/facial hair but cause the hair on the top of your head to thin. It's called androgenic alopecia.
As long as DHT is elevated you could continue to lose your hair. Over the long term it may cause hair to grow in areas you may not like.
If DHT causes acne, how come some women (myself and the OP included) experience CLEAR skin yet increased body hair on vitex? I asked an herbalist and he said vitex is supposed to decrease excess body/ facial hair because it has anti-androgenic properties.
Also, I read conflicting information about vitex's effect on prolactin. The herbalist thinks that prolactin plays a major role in hormonal acne, but it's rarely discussed on these boards. Any thoughts?
Hi - I hope some of you will be able to help me!
I started taking a Vitex tincture (Agnus Castus Vitex) a month ago to try to clear my hormonal acne. It has already helped a lot which is wonderful.
But unfortunately, I am starting to lose lots of hair! Appearently hair loss is a quite common side effect of Vitex.
Now my question: Does anyone know why Vitex causes hair loss for some people?
This will help me decide whether I should stop taking the remedy immidiately or I have to wait and see if it's just initial imbalances and hormonal confusion that will wean off.
Vitex inhibits aromatase. In other words it slows the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and pushes metabolism toward dht. DHT can increase body/facial hair but cause the hair on the top of your head to thin. It's called androgenic alopecia.
As long as DHT is elevated you could continue to lose your hair. Over the long term it may cause hair to grow in areas you may not like.
If DHT causes acne, how come some women (myself and the OP included) experience CLEAR skin yet increased body hair on vitex? I asked an herbalist and he said vitex is supposed to decrease excess body/ facial hair because it has anti-androgenic properties.
Also, I read conflicting information about vitex's effect on prolactin. The herbalist thinks that prolactin plays a major role in hormonal acne, but it's rarely discussed on these boards. Any thoughts?
Hi Wishclean.
DHT doesn't cause acne, testosterone does and it's exacerbated by elevated insulin. DHT does cause body hair growth and baldness.
Does that make sense?
Hi Wishclean.
DHT doesn't cause acne, testosterone does and it's exacerbated by elevated insulin. DHT does cause body hair growth and baldness.
Does that make sense?
Then why do many DHT-blockers like saw palmetto and spironolactone are supposed to help with both acne and hirsutism? Of course, there are people who complain of hair loss on DHT inhibitors too. While I was on vitex the first time, the hair on my head seemed thicker and healthier. When I went off it, the hair loss started. As for facial hair, it began to increase after a few months on vitex, but this was also the time I got laser hair removal on my face (stupid decision) so that may have triggered dormant hair follicles as well. The excess facial/ body hair was noticeable after about 3-4 months on vitex.
The herbalist who put me back on vitex now recommended I only take the full dose for 3 months, then check my prolactin levels and lower the dose until my stress levels become more manageable. I'm still taking inositol to hopefully combat any hair loss from the vitex...so far, it's helped my hair a bit. I still don't get why herbalists say vitex is anti-androgenic...??!?! I'm reading conflicting information on it and it seems that we can't tell for sure how it affects each woman's cycle and hair growth.
Hi Wishclean.
DHT doesn't cause acne, testosterone does and it's exacerbated by elevated insulin. DHT does cause body hair growth and baldness.
Does that make sense?
Then why do many DHT-blockers like saw palmetto and spironolactone are supposed to help with both acne and hirsutism? Of course, there are people who complain of hair loss on DHT inhibitors too. While I was on vitex the first time, the hair on my head seemed thicker and healthier. When I went off it, the hair loss started. As for facial hair, it began to increase after a few months on vitex, but this was also the time I got laser hair removal on my face (stupid decision) so that may have triggered dormant hair follicles as well. The excess facial/ body hair was noticeable after about 3-4 months on vitex.
The herbalist who put me back on vitex now recommended I only take the full dose for 3 months, then check my prolactin levels and lower the dose until my stress levels become more manageable. I'm still taking inositol to hopefully combat any hair loss from the vitex...so far, it's helped my hair a bit. I still don't get why herbalists say vitex is anti-androgenic...??!?! I'm reading conflicting information on it and it seems that we can't tell for sure how it affects each woman's cycle and hair growth.
Saw palmetto has 5a reductase inhibition properties. It decreases conversion of testosterone to dht and therefore pushes the reaction toward elevated estradiol. This has two distinct effects:
1. Estradiol opposes the action of testosterone and reduces it potency and side effects; and
2. Estradiol concentration is directly correlated to SHBG. Increasing estradiol increases SHBG that combines with free testosterone, decreasing the circulating free fraction. This decrease in free levels has a positive effect on acne.
Saw palmetto has 5a reductase inhibition properties. It decreases conversion of testosterone to dht and therefore pushes the reaction toward elevated estradiol. This has two distinct effects:
1. Estradiol opposes the action of testosterone and reduces it potency and side effects; and
2. Estradiol concentration is directly correlated to SHBG. Increasing estradiol increases SHBG that combines with free testosterone, decreasing the circulating free fraction. This decrease in free levels has a positive effect on acne.
I wish it were as straightforward as you describe, but the varied experiences and reviews indicate that people respond differently. I read reviews on vitex, for instance, claiming it helps with hair loss. The herbalist who recommended it to me insists there is no way it can cause hairloss and exacerbate hirsutism...he told me an elaborate explanation on why this is impossible but then again my experience suggests otherwise.
Also, according to some things I read on this forum, too much progesterone can be androgenic, yet how do you explain the studies on inositol (as well as my personal experience) reducing acne thanks to its testosterone decreasing and progesterone increasing ability? I don't think it's a simple equation.
@ billiebean, I added vitex to my regimen for the 3rd time, this time after being on inositol since September. I mainly added vitex to see if it would help with histamines/ allergies and estrogen dominance symptoms, as my skin was almost clear on inositol alone. Inositol seems to have helped me grow some baby hairs on my head, so maybe it's something worth taking along with vitex to combat any hair loss from the vitex?
Saw palmetto has 5a reductase inhibition properties. It decreases conversion of testosterone to dht and therefore pushes the reaction toward elevated estradiol. This has two distinct effects:
1. Estradiol opposes the action of testosterone and reduces it potency and side effects; and
2. Estradiol concentration is directly correlated to SHBG. Increasing estradiol increases SHBG that combines with free testosterone, decreasing the circulating free fraction. This decrease in free levels has a positive effect on acne.
I wish it were as straightforward as you describe, but the varied experiences and reviews indicate that people respond differently. I read reviews on vitex, for instance, claiming it helps with hair loss. The herbalist who recommended it to me insists there is no way it can cause hairloss and exacerbate hirsutism...he told me an elaborate explanation on why this is impossible but then again my experience suggests otherwise.
Also, according to some things I read on this forum, too much progesterone can be androgenic, yet how do you explain the studies on inositol (as well as my personal experience) reducing acne thanks to its testosterone decreasing and progesterone increasing ability? I don't think it's a simple equation.
@ billiebean, I added vitex to my regimen for the 3rd time, this time after being on inositol since September. I mainly added vitex to see if it would help with histamines/ allergies and estrogen dominance symptoms, as my skin was almost clear on inositol alone. Inositol seems to have helped me grow some baby hairs on my head, so maybe it's something worth taking along with vitex to combat any hair loss from the vitex?
Good morning,
I understand what you are saying here and have a few thoughts.
1. None of us have the ability to collect a complete history, exam and order the correct lab work. Without this level of data, you have an incomplete clinical picture.
2. You have no idea if forum posts are based on truth. In other words, I can tell you Vitex is causing one thing and it may be doing the opposite. I may not even be taking it and making it all up.
3. Herbs are a wild card. They haven't been extensively studied and have more than one active ingredient.
4. Therapies should be prescribed based on the individual hormonal imbalance. You may be estrogen dominant and the next person may be estrogen deficient. Prescribing a hormonal therapy that has an impact on estrogen could have a dramatically different result.
5. The various nutritional supplements like inositol are also a wild card. We don't really know how it works to resolve acne/hair loss.
6. Generally speaking, this includes me, we don't want to address diet. Insulin plays a part in this puzzle and most people won't address it. There is just as much scientific prejudice among the general public on nutrition as there is in the medical community.
7. I'm not familiar with herbalists, their training or medical expertise. However, the things I read here that others claim they say appear questionable.
So, my take is that the best way to address acne is:
1. Create a complete food log for 3 days:
2. Get checked out by a doc that understands and is interested in bio identical hormone replacement. The history and exam should take about an hour and there should be an extensive questionnaire to complete before seeing the doc. This, of course, will include an extensive and thorough lab work up.
I know the whole thing is annoying. I try and focus on following principles that are well established. There is absolutely enough scientific data to correct any imbalance and resolve acne. The hard part is finding the correct individual to treat the problem.
There is also inconclusive evidence on vitex's impact on dopamine levels, and in turn inconclusive evidence on whether dopamine plays a role in acne. What I know is that both times I have been on vitex it cleared my skin, so obviously something in its mechanism worked for my skin.
The reason why we don't know enough about herbs and supplements is lack of substantial funding for adequate research. Whenever there is substantial evidence that a supplement/herb can be as beneficial as a drug, companies try to patent it (as in the case of Chiral Balance's d-chiro-inositol supplement) but it's much harder to patent a supplement/herb than a pharmaceutical drug. In my opinion, there are supplements and herbs that work just as well if not better than "studied" drugs, but of course if pharmaceutical companies admitted that the entire medical field would collapse.
As for your suggestions about a food log...I have been keeping one consistently, and sticking to mostly the same food groups. But I noticed that since starting vitex I have been able to eat more freely and even had foods I haven't had in a year to test this. No new breakouts. My guess is it could be reducing my histamine reactions by balancing out my estrogen levels...if indeed estrogen dominance can exacerbate histamine reactions.
I did see 2 doctors specializing in bio-identical hormones, I can't afford to see anyone else at the moment. The one I am currently seeing is one of the highest doctors in my area for integrative medicine (including bio-identical treatments) and even she was asking me why I quit vitex if it was working for me. She said it's more likely to work for me again that any other mixture of bioidentical hormones. I have a progesterone cream prescription from her but why bother filling it out if she's just speculating, like most other doctors I've seen?
Good morning,
I understand what you are saying here and have a few thoughts.
1. None of us have the ability to collect a complete history, exam and order the correct lab work. Without this level of data, you have an incomplete clinical picture.
2. You have no idea if forum posts are based on truth. In other words, I can tell you Vitex is causing one thing and it may be doing the opposite. I may not even be taking it and making it all up.
3. Herbs are a wild card. They haven't been extensively studied and have more than one active ingredient.
4. Therapies should be prescribed based on the individual hormonal imbalance. You may be estrogen dominant and the next person may be estrogen deficient. Prescribing a hormonal therapy that has an impact on estrogen could have a dramatically different result.
5. The various nutritional supplements like inositol are also a wild card. We don't really know how it works to resolve acne/hair loss.
6. Generally speaking, this includes me, we don't want to address diet. Insulin plays a part in this puzzle and most people won't address it. There is just as much scientific prejudice among the general public on nutrition as there is in the medical community.
7. I'm not familiar with herbalists, their training or medical expertise. However, the things I read here that others claim they say appear questionable.
So, my take is that the best way to address acne is:
1. Create a complete food log for 3 days:
2. Get checked out by a doc that understands and is interested in bio identical hormone replacement. The history and exam should take about an hour and there should be an extensive questionnaire to complete before seeing the doc. This, of course, will include an extensive and thorough lab work up.
I know the whole thing is annoying. I try and focus on following principles that are well established. There is absolutely enough scientific data to correct any imbalance and resolve acne. The hard part is finding the correct individual to treat the problem.
There is also inconclusive evidence on vitex's impact on dopamine levels, and in turn inconclusive evidence on whether dopamine plays a role in acne. What I know is that both times I have been on vitex it cleared my skin, so obviously something in its mechanism worked for my skin.
The reason why we don't know enough about herbs and supplements is lack of substantial funding for adequate research. Whenever there is substantial evidence that a supplement/herb can be as beneficial as a drug, companies try to patent it (as in the case of Chiral Balance's d-chiro-inositol supplement) but it's much harder to patent a supplement/herb than a pharmaceutical drug. In my opinion, there are supplements and herbs that work just as well if not better than "studied" drugs, but of course if pharmaceutical companies admitted that the entire medical field would collapse.
As for your suggestions about a food log...I have been keeping one consistently, and sticking to mostly the same food groups. But I noticed that since starting vitex I have been able to eat more freely and even had foods I haven't had in a year to test this. No new breakouts. My guess is it could be reducing my histamine reactions by balancing out my estrogen levels...if indeed estrogen dominance can exacerbate histamine reactions.
I did see 2 doctors specializing in bio-identical hormones, I can't afford to see anyone else at the moment. The one I am currently seeing is one of the highest doctors in my area for integrative medicine (including bio-identical treatments) and even she was asking me why I quit vitex if it was working for me. She said it's more likely to work for me again that any other mixture of bioidentical hormones. I have a progesterone cream prescription from her but why bother filling it out if she's just speculating, like most other doctors I've seen?
Good morning,
I understand what you are saying here and have a few thoughts.
1. None of us have the ability to collect a complete history, exam and order the correct lab work. Without this level of data, you have an incomplete clinical picture.
2. You have no idea if forum posts are based on truth. In other words, I can tell you Vitex is causing one thing and it may be doing the opposite. I may not even be taking it and making it all up.
3. Herbs are a wild card. They haven't been extensively studied and have more than one active ingredient.
4. Therapies should be prescribed based on the individual hormonal imbalance. You may be estrogen dominant and the next person may be estrogen deficient. Prescribing a hormonal therapy that has an impact on estrogen could have a dramatically different result.
5. The various nutritional supplements like inositol are also a wild card. We don't really know how it works to resolve acne/hair loss.
6. Generally speaking, this includes me, we don't want to address diet. Insulin plays a part in this puzzle and most people won't address it. There is just as much scientific prejudice among the general public on nutrition as there is in the medical community.
7. I'm not familiar with herbalists, their training or medical expertise. However, the things I read here that others claim they say appear questionable.
So, my take is that the best way to address acne is:
1. Create a complete food log for 3 days:
2. Get checked out by a doc that understands and is interested in bio identical hormone replacement. The history and exam should take about an hour and there should be an extensive questionnaire to complete before seeing the doc. This, of course, will include an extensive and thorough lab work up.
I know the whole thing is annoying. I try and focus on following principles that are well established. There is absolutely enough scientific data to correct any imbalance and resolve acne. The hard part is finding the correct individual to treat the problem.
Most physicians don't understand that acne is a hormonal disorder. They claim the etiology is unproven. So, It makes sense that your doc would say to continue using an herb that works. When I consult with clients (scientific, but non-medical field) I could easily see saying the same thing. It it's not broken, don't fix it.
I have also had to deal with a much more serious chronic medical issue that I ultimately was able to resolve. I did this by persistently researching and working with the best physician in my area. There were many times when I would approach him with ideas that had no significant evidence to support their mechanism of action or efficacy and he was unwilling to try them. At the time I didn't understand why, however now I do. It makes no sense to chase a rabbit down it's hole when there are options that are known to work.
My view is that if you have something that works and the benefit cost ratio makes sense, then continue. Otherwise stick to the known principles rather than getting frustrated that no one will support a therapy that is backed only by anecdotal evidence.
Elevated estrogen is not a statistically significant risk factor for acne.
Properly evaluate your endocrine condition, correct the deficiencies or excesses and follow a proper diet. I really think this our best bet for resolving the problem.
That's the issue with finding new treatments though, that most doctors are unwilling to try out alternative routes of treatment. But obviously, the current mainstream treatments for acne are more like crutches, not long term solutions. At this point, I'm more comfortable pursuing my own customized plan than take a pill that can mess up other things in the process of helping acne. And it's not like I haven't tried everything else - from ages 14-25, I took everything the doctors prescribed. I'm not even sure my hormonal acne would have been as bad if I hadn't started birth control for my acne at a young age.
Anyway, I read some studies on vitex and some even better studies on inositol, so I know at least that those can back up anecdotal evidence. With these types of treatments, anecdotal information comprises the majority of testimonials, so we can't completely dismiss it as useless just because it's subjective. Controlled studies are also subjective to an extent. Any side effects reported are definitely milder than side effects from acne medication and bcp.
I think that by resolving estrogen dominance, it's one way to get closer to hormonal balance and thus reduction of acne (theoretically speaking).
Most physicians don't understand that acne is a hormonal disorder. They claim the etiology is unproven. So, It makes sense that your doc would say to continue using an herb that works. When I consult with clients (scientific, but non-medical field) I could easily see saying the same thing. It it's not broken, don't fix it.
I have also had to deal with a much more serious chronic medical issue that I ultimately was able to resolve. I did this by persistently researching and working with the best physician in my area. There were many times when I would approach him with ideas that had no significant evidence to support their mechanism of action or efficacy and he was unwilling to try them. At the time I didn't understand why, however now I do. It makes no sense to chase a rabbit down it's hole when there are options that are known to work.
My view is that if you have something that works and the benefit cost ratio makes sense, then continue. Otherwise stick to the known principles rather than getting frustrated that no one will support a therapy that is backed only by anecdotal evidence.
Elevated estrogen is not a statistically significant risk factor for acne.
Properly evaluate your endocrine condition, correct the deficiencies or excesses and follow a proper diet. I really think this our best bet for resolving the problem.
That's the issue with finding new treatments though, that most doctors are unwilling to try out alternative routes of treatment. But obviously, the current mainstream treatments for acne are more like crutches, not long term solutions. At this point, I'm more comfortable pursuing my own customized plan than take a pill that can mess up other things in the process of helping acne. And it's not like I haven't tried everything else - from ages 14-25, I took everything the doctors prescribed. I'm not even sure my hormonal acne would have been as bad if I hadn't started birth control for my acne at a young age.
Anyway, I read some studies on vitex and some even better studies on inositol, so I know at least that those can back up anecdotal evidence. With these types of treatments, anecdotal information comprises the majority of testimonials, so we can't completely dismiss it as useless just because it's subjective. Controlled studies are also subjective to an extent. Any side effects reported are definitely milder than side effects from acne medication and bcp.
I think that by resolving estrogen dominance, it's one way to get closer to hormonal balance and thus reduction of acne (theoretically speaking).
Most physicians don't understand that acne is a hormonal disorder. They claim the etiology is unproven. So, It makes sense that your doc would say to continue using an herb that works. When I consult with clients (scientific, but non-medical field) I could easily see saying the same thing. It it's not broken, don't fix it.
I have also had to deal with a much more serious chronic medical issue that I ultimately was able to resolve. I did this by persistently researching and working with the best physician in my area. There were many times when I would approach him with ideas that had no significant evidence to support their mechanism of action or efficacy and he was unwilling to try them. At the time I didn't understand why, however now I do. It makes no sense to chase a rabbit down it's hole when there are options that are known to work.
My view is that if you have something that works and the benefit cost ratio makes sense, then continue. Otherwise stick to the known principles rather than getting frustrated that no one will support a therapy that is backed only by anecdotal evidence.
Elevated estrogen is not a statistically significant risk factor for acne.
Properly evaluate your endocrine condition, correct the deficiencies or excesses and follow a proper diet. I really think this our best bet for resolving the problem.
Estrogen dominance is essentially unopposed estradiol. It's treated properly with progesterone.
Since acne is caused by elevated free testosterone and estradiol opposes testosterone, estrogen dominance does not contribute to acne. If anything it helps to control acne by neutralizing androgens.
Estrogen dominance is essentially unopposed estradiol. It's treated properly with progesterone.
Since acne is caused by elevated free testosterone and estradiol opposes testosterone, estrogen dominance does not contribute to acne. If anything it helps to control acne by neutralizing androgens.
Yeah, I see what you are saying and theoretically it makes sense. But again going by myself as an example, my acne responds to treatments that either boost progesterone and/or lower estradiol. My skin never cleared on anti-androgens alone, that's why I think testosterone is not the only factor involved here.
I'm researching prolactin and dopamine to see if those could possibly affect acne as well, even if only indirectly.