DERMAL GRAFT
If you have had this done post here please!
Okay so I am trying to compile a thread of people that have had some of these procedures done. I know Datura had dermal grafts done, I believe in Alabama, but not sure by which doctor. I'm pretty sure he had good results with the dermal grafts. I know there's been a few others on here that have had it done too. I am looking for other people that have had it done.
Fat Transfer / Fat Graft / Fat injection
If you had had this done post here! Please!
Again I know some people have had this done with success and the result is dependent on the skill of the doctor. I recall a user on this site that said fat injections were like magic and that each time he them done his skin on the surface improved too. The results can be permanent if done correctly. (harvesting, injecting).
PRP (blood injections)
This is where blood is used as a filler, but it's more than just a filler. Blood contains numerous things that are beneficial. It has growth factors, stem cells. There is a lot of science on the web and on the site to back this up. However, I am looking for people that have had this done.
Dermarolling
If you have had dermarolling done or you do it yourself, please post here!
Please don't leave if you have had one of these treatments and it was successful. I am simply making this thread, because I know how hard it is to search for information with tears in your eyes. I am trying to make it easier for people, I know this has been done, but some of the threads are pretty old. Feel free to quote parts from any other thread to make it easier for new members.
I can honestly say that I love each & everyone of you acne.org members, as silly as it sounds we are like a family. We WILL get through this dang it!
Thanks so much.
I will be stalking this thread. I've called up several doctors about fat transfer. Some claim that it isn't permanent and that the fat gets reabsorbed within a couple of years, some claim at least 50% remain because some of the cells die off(?) during transfer and some survive, I read on one site the doctor noting that fat contains stem cells and that results are permanent.
The super expensive doctor in my city who claims to offer permanent results had a very negative review in the last few months...the woman claimed he lied and the results only lasted 6 months.
Also, some people may not come back on this board if their scars are gone or mostly non-existent!
I think Datura got the grafting done in California...I tried sending her a message asking who the doctor was who performed the grafting and she won't respond. 
I had fat graft in October 2012 in conjunction with subcision for my rolling scars on my cheeks. Plastic surgeon destroyed fibers, fixing the bottom of the scars in the derma, with a blunt cannula in a reciprocating/fan-shaped/circular motion (not with a Nokor needle in order to prevent injuries of blood vessels...so weird - it sounded like eating of dry conflakes or the like), afterwards he did the fat graft extensively followed by a very aggressive needling (with the dermapen... full-face because I had Boxscars and a couple of ice-pick-scars on my temples and forehead). Downtime was a week: On day 5/6 the uppermost layer of the skin removed, on day 7 I was absolute socially acceptable, maybe with a nice red/brown glow. The idea was that the stem cells would help to heal the injuries produced by the needling as well as the smoothing effect, in addition the fat layer should prevent a re-connection of the retracted scars. It works very well, maybe I got an improvement of around 50 percent (the rolling scars respond best, the ice-picks and the boxscars on my cheeks/temples seemed to have more shallow due to the needling). So I decided to proceed.
In November I had another full-face-needling, in December the whole procedure of October once again. The results are very impressing: The rolling scars on my cheeks are gone (or at least almost...I have had a larger volume lost on my right cheek bone because of acne cyst) and obviously I look younger (I'm 35 now) - as people say I didn't see for a while. But be aware that is a rocky road: I tried to avoid face movements as good as possible (didn't speak for a week, ate only mashed stuff and so on) plus I ate not only very healthy (with a couple of supplements) but opulent right after the derma graft (mashed walnuts with virgin olive oil [Edited image out]) in order to support of the engraftment - that's why I increased in weight...once a friend in the gym asked if I take cortisone (did fitness/bodybuilding for years - before some wise guys is going to write a comment: I have had acne in school and started fitness/bodybuilding afterwards when I was in the army....plus I never took steroids). But now my cheek bones are back thanks of sport, jogging...
In January and February I had ablative fractional laser treatments (full face) for my boxscars, in March subcision for isolate scars on my temples, in April another ablative fractional laser treatment, in June PRP. Now (after the summer break) I'm going to struggle with my perfectionism-problem - it's astonishing if you suffer for years because of the scars and then you get improvement you aim to perfection.
Long story short: fat graft in conjunction with needling removed almost all of my rolling scars plus certainly it improved the boxscars on my cheek area (and improved skin surface/texture although I can't say that fat graft helped in this way, laser in that way...all I can say is, that the multiple approach helped a lot).
On 8/26/2013 at 10:05 AM, no_hope said:if you search the archives you will see there are alot of people who have tried these methods before but no longer post here anymore god only knows why
I know it's hard to have hope at times, but please don't think there isn't any. We are all going through the same thing, we are in this together! If I seen any of you in person, I would give you a hug & we could cry together! I also promise one day if I become rich, I will do anything I can to help any scar sufferers. I also want to add that I had subcision done back in June and I cried "because I didn't see any improvement." However, sometimes it becomes hard for us to recognize when we have had improvement.
On 8/26/2013 at 9:42 PM, michi31 said:Hey just wanted to say that you might want to check out realself, there are lots of reviews on fat transfers.
Hey michi, yeah I checked realself, but I am weary of that website because the doctors & people on there are so negative. Not only that, it's websites like that where people go when things go wrong. I know it can be helpful for finding a doctor, but I just don't like all of the negativity. A lot of people have successful scar revision, but they never join websites or report back because it worked. So while I find acne.org beneficial to many, it can be depressing too. I consider it a support, venting group. Sorry to ramble. I wish others came back on here to give us more information about their success, but at the same time I understand that this website reminds them of dark times.
On 8/27/2013 at 10:11 AM, Starlite said:I will be stalking this thread. I've called up several doctors about fat transfer. Some claim that it isn't permanent and that the fat gets reabsorbed within a couple of years, some claim at least 50% remain because some of the cells die off(?) during transfer and some survive, I read on one site the doctor noting that fat contains stem cells and that results are permanent.
The super expensive doctor in my city who claims to offer permanent results had a very negative review in the last few months...the woman claimed he lied and the results only lasted 6 months.
Also, some people may not come back on this board if their scars are gone or mostly non-existent!
I think Datura got the grafting done in California...I tried sending her a message asking who the doctor was who performed the grafting and she won't respond. [Edited image out]
Yeah, from what I hear if it's done correctly it is permanent. There are stem cells in fat, and as long as they continue to live and get a good blood supply, not all of them will die. I know it's something you have to have done more than once, but come on we should be used to that. People tend to get it done more than once, because they don't want it to be over corrected the first time. Also, from my experience reading on the realself website, I have seen some horror stories about how the fat has stayed there forever. While I understand that sucks, but I look on the positive side of it. I think hmm, well it lasted for them. Not only that, I feel that even if it was over corrected, with all the stuff we know on these boards the ability to fix an over correction is there. I think we need to set the bs aside, and realize that many of us on these boards are highly intelligent people. This is a learning experience for us. Here I am rambling again, I will definitely be keeping up with this thread. I hope others do too.
On 8/27/2013 at 8:18 PM, Wolkenbruch said:I had fat graft in October 2012 in conjunction with subcision for my rolling scars on my cheeks. Plastic surgeon destroyed fibers, fixing the bottom of the scars in the derma, with a blunt cannula in a reciprocating/fan-shaped/circular motion (not with a Nokor needle in order to prevent injuries of blood vessels...so weird - it sounded like eating of dry conflakes or the like), afterwards he did the fat graft extensively followed by a very aggressive needling (with the dermapen... full-face because I had Boxscars and a couple of ice-pick-scars on my temples and forehead). Downtime was a week: On day 5/6 the uppermost layer of the skin removed, on day 7 I was absolute socially acceptable, maybe with a nice red/brown glow. The idea was that the stem cells would help to heal the injuries produced by the needling as well as the smoothing effect, in addition the fat layer should prevent a re-connection of the retracted scars. It works very well, maybe I got an improvement of around 50 percent (the rolling scars respond best, the ice-picks and the boxscars on my cheeks/temples seemed to have more shallow due to the needling). So I decided to proceed.
In November I had another full-face-needling, in December the whole procedure of October once again. The results are very impressing: The rolling scars on my cheeks are gone (or at least almost...I have had a larger volume lost on my right cheek bone because of acne cyst) and obviously I look younger (I'm 35 now) - as people say I didn't see for a while. But be aware that is a rocky road: I tried to avoid face movements as good as possible (didn't speak for a week, ate only mashed stuff and so on) plus I ate not only very healthy (with a couple of supplements) but opulent right after the derma graft (mashed walnuts with virgin olive oil [Edited image out]) in order to support of the engraftment - that's why I increased in weight...once a friend in the gym asked if I take cortisone (did fitness/bodybuilding for years - before some wise guys is going to write a comment: I have had acne in school and started fitness/bodybuilding afterwards when I was in the army....plus I never took steroids). But now my cheek bones are back thanks of sport, jogging...
In January and February I had ablative fractional laser treatments (full face) for my boxscars, in March subcision for isolate scars on my temples, in April another ablative fractional laser treatment, in June PRP. Now (after the summer break) I'm going to struggle with my perfectionism-problem - it's astonishing if you suffer for years because of the scars and then you get improvement you aim to perfection.
Long story short: fat graft in conjunction with needling removed almost all of my rolling scars plus certainly it improved the boxscars on my cheek area (and improved skin surface/texture although I can't say that fat graft helped in this way, laser in that way...all I can say is, that the multiple approach helped a lot).
First off, before I say anything I want to thank you for posting your experience. I honestly appreciate it, and I'm sure many others do too. I completely understand the concept of a multi approach to the problem we are struggling with. It gives many people an idea for a treatment plan. Can I ask how much it cost you for the subcision/fat transfer/needling? Another question, where did the doctor take the fat from? I have read some take it from the back of the knee, some take it from the stomach, and some take it from behind the ear. Yeah you are so right there, we can never get enough improvement. Sometimes, we don't even realize that we have had improvement. I also understand that it is important to eat healthy and get the right supplements. Honestly though, I think the most important thing to do when you are healing is to be as positive as you can be. I remember being really negative with each treatment. I cleaned the house and moped around, because I looked to crazy to go outside. Are emotions are stronger than we think. I definitely think vitamin C is important though, because it is proven to boost the mood. One should look into mood boosting foods in the recovery process. Also, where is your doctor located? I won't be able to have anymore treatments for awhile, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead.
*One more thing I want to add to people reading this, I know it can be hard to have a positive mindset. However, don't let your scars "own" you. Know that there will be improvement, know that you WILL get through this! Know that there are treatments out there you haven't tried. Know that even though you might of had some treatments done, they are more beneficial when done together. Know that your life's not over. Don't let this hold you back from doing anything you enjoy, because that makes it worse. In order to become what you want to be, you really do have to see the bright side and feel that you are there. We are our own worst critics. Why do you think we strive for perfection? Know that you are beautiful. Know that this is a learning experience. Know that it's OKAY to cry, it's OKAY to let anger out.*
You're welcome! Before I started my treatment I had read a lot in this forum. It gave hope to realize that other people obtained success. Thats why I thought maybe posting my experience can encourage someone to attack the skin problem if it affects the life. As Dudley wrote: On any forum like this negative people will hang around longer and have more to say than positive people who just move on because they have accomplished their goal. The absence of good news create a wrong impression so maybe it's helpful for someone to read about my realistic (i.e. not euphoric) counterpoint. That means: Of course it takes time to see results (my doctor predicted a year to see a satisfy improvement - and I was enervated because of such a long term), but time flies with or without a treatment. So start as soon as possible in order to see results (not solutions) as early as possible.
Ok, that are my general remarks, in terms of your questions, xscarringx: My doctors are located in Germany, so its probably a little bit too far away but treatments are a lot cheaper here, so possibly a travel is worth the effort. I will send you a PN with the details.
For all the people reading this: The surgery is no big deal. It wasnt painful at allthe most uncomfortable aspect was to wear an abdominal bandage/ compressing dressing for the first 24h (itching, pressure, thats why I couldnt sleep in the night as is usual). And of course you have to expect and accept moderate bruises for a week. In my first session the fat was taken from the stomach, second from my dorsum. The procedure in a nutshell: I got the local anesthesia (its the most painful part), than some injections of saline solution in my stomach respectively in my dorsum, afterwards I had to wait around 1/2 h, following this, the fat was taken (~ 15min). During the subcision (~ 20 min) the fat was separated in its components and was filled in injections. After subcision the fat was grafted (~15 min), followed by the needling (~30 min).
I was able to go home without any problems (of course I was really red and really swollen...the taxi driver looked a little bit irritatedand when I washed my face at home I had a feeling as if I wash E.T.), on the next day I had to come in the clinic for a checkup. Periodically I had to wash the face and had to put a special oil on - till the 5th/6th day when the upper layer of the skin removed. A week after the treatment I had to come in the clinic once again (I went by local passenger traffic, maybe I was a little bit bronze/red, but it was cold weather, so everybody had red cheekies) for a final check up and in order to remove of the stitches which were in my navel/on my back (absolutely no big deal). So, all in all, it was not as big a problem as expected. BUT: THIS IS YOUR FACE, IT'S YOUR SKIN, IT'S YOUR CONFIDENCE, SO DO NOT SHOP AROUND FOR THE BEST PRICE SHOP AROUND FOR THE BEST/ MOST REPUTABLE DOCTOR!!!
Another recommendation: As I already remarked I ate healthy and took a couple of supplements, namely vitamin C, zinc, biotin and siliceous earth. But my impression is that I got a boost when I started to increase my food supplements for athletes (whey protein, amino acids, creatine if you are interested take a look in the internet for the importance of essential amino acids for collagen synthesis).
Last but not least: Get ready for disappointments. Its seems that Icepick- and Boxscars become shallower but wider (and therefore more noticeable) when they improve. Maybe that's why some people pass a negative comment on a laser or needling treatment. Be prepared for a long journey that takes time as well as energy. When the micro-swelling was gone I was devastated. Its hard to stay positive when you see this setbacks but its truly important to stay positive. The skin is a reflection of our soul, so the skin is worse when the emotions are negative. But fortunately it works in the opposite way also: If you see improvements, you get a positive dynamic. Thats why its not convenient to look into the mirror all the time/every day from a closer distance. Check out the progress once a week, then you realize the results and get into this positive dynamic development.
On 8/27/2013 at 8:18 PM, Wolkenbruch said:I had fat graft in October 2012 in conjunction with subcision for my rolling scars on my cheeks. Plastic surgeon destroyed fibers, fixing the bottom of the scars in the derma, with a blunt cannula in a reciprocating/fan-shaped/circular motion (not with a Nokor needle in order to prevent injuries of blood vessels...so weird - it sounded like eating of dry conflakes or the like), afterwards he did the fat graft extensively followed by a very aggressive needling (with the dermapen... full-face because I had Boxscars and a couple of ice-pick-scars on my temples and forehead). Downtime was a week: On day 5/6 the uppermost layer of the skin removed, on day 7 I was absolute socially acceptable, maybe with a nice red/brown glow. The idea was that the stem cells would help to heal the injuries produced by the needling as well as the smoothing effect, in addition the fat layer should prevent a re-connection of the retracted scars. It works very well, maybe I got an improvement of around 50 percent (the rolling scars respond best, the ice-picks and the boxscars on my cheeks/temples seemed to have more shallow due to the needling). So I decided to proceed.
In November I had another full-face-needling, in December the whole procedure of October once again. The results are very impressing: The rolling scars on my cheeks are gone (or at least almost...I have had a larger volume lost on my right cheek bone because of acne cyst) and obviously I look younger (I'm 35 now) - as people say I didn't see for a while. But be aware that is a rocky road: I tried to avoid face movements as good as possible (didn't speak for a week, ate only mashed stuff and so on) plus I ate not only very healthy (with a couple of supplements) but opulent right after the derma graft (mashed walnuts with virgin olive oil [Edited image out]) in order to support of the engraftment - that's why I increased in weight...once a friend in the gym asked if I take cortisone (did fitness/bodybuilding for years - before some wise guys is going to write a comment: I have had acne in school and started fitness/bodybuilding afterwards when I was in the army....plus I never took steroids). But now my cheek bones are back thanks of sport, jogging...
In January and February I had ablative fractional laser treatments (full face) for my boxscars, in March subcision for isolate scars on my temples, in April another ablative fractional laser treatment, in June PRP. Now (after the summer break) I'm going to struggle with my perfectionism-problem - it's astonishing if you suffer for years because of the scars and then you get improvement you aim to perfection.
Long story short: fat graft in conjunction with needling removed almost all of my rolling scars plus certainly it improved the boxscars on my cheek area (and improved skin surface/texture although I can't say that fat graft helped in this way, laser in that way...all I can say is, that the multiple approach helped a lot).
wolkenbruchthank you for posting your experience. i admire your journey. im jurious though howcome you was doing treatments one moth apart form each other? that seems a bit odd to me. its great to have you on the org since alot of people that have done fat graft no longer post here, unfortunatley i only have boxcars and ice picks. do you think fat grafting with subcision is worth it for those? im currently going receiving treatment that uses filler + subcision . do you think fat is better compared to filler?
Wolkenbruch, very interesting posts! Thanks for sharing your success story!
I am glad that only in less than a year you seem to have achieved great improvement for your scars! In fact you could expect even better results as collagen continues to build up for 6 to 12 months post procedure.
I am particularly interested in your experience because I am also based in Germany and right now I am in the process of gathering information on different treatment options that could come into question. Fat transfer and ablative laser resurfacing make my top 5 search items after Dermarolling failed to give me the desired results for a couple of deep untethered rolling scars. I hope fat transfer could help with these as the problem is loss of subcutaneous fat tissue.
I am very curious about your treatment plan and I have a few questions If you don't mind answering. It would help a lot.
So what were your scars in terms of depth and extent? Would you describe them as mild, moderate, severe?
Also what kind of fractional CO2 laser did you go for? What is your skin- rather thin or thick?
I gather you got the stem cell -enhanced fat injection? I find it an interesting approach that the fat transfer was directly followed by the Dermapen. I have had the Dermapen treatment and this involves pressure to the tissue. Any adverse effects? Do the results seem to be permanent now months after the transfer?
And last but definitely not least..could you please send me a PM with the doctor's contact details? I would really appreciate it!!
Up until now I have been traveling abroad to get treatment for my scarring and I would not want to miss out on a skilled scar specialist in Germany if there is one here.
nohope <- you better get some hope 
Hey I think the reason the treatments were spaced so close together were done that way to stimulate the fat transfer. When you get treatments done, it really gets the blood flowing, especially when it's done to targeted areas. I also read that drinking alcohol can help too, because it also gets blood flowing. The blood techinically grabs on to the fat and new vessels are created, which keeps the fat alive and and it continues to multiply, if done right. (not over correct) It just turns over, if that makes sense? like cell turnover...also i think that the fat transfer could work for boxcars to a least help raise them and keep them raised after subcision combined with needling
Anna
You're so lucky you live in Germany lol,, I am really considering a trip there. I am curious to know how much dermarolling helped you? i hear it's really beneficial
Hey Xscarringx, rolling was beneficial for me too. I think the success depends on the severity of the scars. My superficial ones on my cheeks filled up, the moderate boxscars maybe by 50-60 % but that's fine for me, now I can make them disappear with make up. On the deeper ones there was some improvement but it was not satisfactory for me. I had hoped for more dramatic results, because they are bothering me the most.
Dermapen was waayyy way better than the roller-much less pain, less redness, longer downtime.
I literally couldn't hold back my tears when I had the dermaroller, even with Emla cream on the pain was almost intolerable because the doctor did the procedure very aggressively, but maybe that' why I have got results.The Dermapen procedure was a walk in the park!
I haven't yet tried the Dermastamp. I have been following the threads on that kind of treatment on this board with interest.
Antria is conducting clinical trials on fat graft check them out.
I'm pleased to read that some people are interested in my post. I will try to answer the questions, but Im not a medic, so aware that I post my sciolism here.
I went to different doctors, the first one recommended subcision+HA, the second one subcision+fat grafting, the third one laser treatments and so on. If you question four doctors you will get five opinions [Edited imageo out], one of the doctors recommended spending the money in a world cruise, because my scars are not so bad. So, the first thing I learned was to form my own opinion.
What plausible sounded to me was thats necessary to start with subcision because old scars (>1 year) do not respond to correction methods satisfiable until the fibrosis fibers are formed in the scar bottom area, fixing it in the derma, are not are destroyed. Read for example: Atrophic Scars and Stretch Marks by Igor Safonov, especially p. 39-42, 49-52 [by the way: take a look into the treatment pictures on p. 72 and 73]. A deep needling caused a subcision effect too but its not quite comparable to a real subcision treatment.
When the bridles are released the surface is able to elevate. An injected layer is supposed to prevent a re-connection of the retracted scars. That can be HA/other fillers (with the advantage of very minimal risks [an allergic reaction] and the disadvantage that HA lasts only several months). Or it can be your own body fat.
The disadvantages of fat grafting are: It is more or less a surgery (read my other posts) with the risk of a surgery like inflammations, embolism and so on. But thats are all risks which are more theoretical to cause an embolism its almost necessary to inject fat into the blood vessels intentionally - and thats hard to achieve because of the blunt cannula which is used. All in all, it is a safe treatment based on well-proven procedures. Besides from that: I think, fat grafting works more extensively/ arealI dont know whats the correct word. What I mean is with HA probably you can treat single scars better.
The advantages of fat grafting are: 1) The results are permanent (of course there is the normal aging process with fat loss). But in most cases a second treatment (or more) is necessary in order to prevent an overcorrectionits unpredictable to know how much of the fat will stay alive. 2) Perhaps the most important advantage: Obviously the engraftment can literally heal scar tissue (not only improve). Please note, as my doctor said, this is some kind of a experimental approach because the idea is not completely documented in studies and so on, but it seems that pluripotent stem cells (contained in fat) are able to differentiate into other cells like skin cells (for further information take a look into the internet). Therefore a deep needling is necessary. It produces injuries which will be healed by the stem cells, as well as it supports the engraftmentthis is a process called angiogenesis...feel free to google it. In addition the needling stimulates the production of collagen (operated by the grown factors of your blood) and so on.
I got the needlings (2,5mm on my cheeks) with the dermastamp no pain, honestly! Anna, Ive read that you received this treatment too. So, you know that needling with the dermapen involves only a little bit pressure to the tissue (different to the dermaroller I think - I never have had a dermaroller treatment). So, no adverse effects. And yes, the results seems to be permanent (>1/2 year after my last fat grafting). I can literally feel the difference; my skin is thicker/tighter/more plump. The surface is smoother but Im not able to estimate the amount effected by the fat graftsthe needling and laser treatments helped a lot too.
I was interested in the shrinking and the peeling effect thats why I booked into the laser treatments. Watch out!
240 min:
1:42 :
no_hope: I think it was a good decision to doing the laser treatments spaced so close apart - the laser treatments improved my surface due to the peeling effect. But I have to say that I have very insensitive skin.I tried peelings in the past and in case of weaker concentration absolutely nothing happend. Anna, Ive had box-/icepickscars similar to Robs I guess (take a look into the profile of Rob_X_22 ). I received the treatments with ECo2 (by Lutronic) and EXELO (Quantel Derma). xscarringx: I wouldnt drink alcohol for blood flow. First of all, think about the negative affects of alcohol concerning cells. If you are interested in encourage blood flow maybe its better to take acetylsalicylic. But be careful its explicitly not allowed to take aspirin in connection with surgeries because it inhibits the clotting of blood. My advice will ever be: sport. no_hope: I guess you would benefit from subcision+filler. At least subcision stimulates the production of collagen, so why should it be useless? But Ive read about your success with airgent so maybe you should wait and see what the second and third round will bring?
Hopefully I answered all question. The special ones I will reply in PM.
This doctor combines treatments to get good results. The before and after pics looks good for some.
http://www.doctorenzer.com/fasula-scar-removal/
http://www.drbafitis.com/dr-bafitis/meet-dr-bafitis/stem-cell-therapy-and-regenerative-medicine/
Out of curiosity, and because I plan on getting a fat transfer I wanted to know Which doctors will store the fat for you? I have some surgeons here that are willing to do a fat transfer, however, they do not want to store the excess fat. That really sucks, because I don't want to have the lipo part done twice. I mean I will if I absolutely have to, but if I can find a doctor that will just store it for me the proper way, then I would rather go that route. Thanks guys !
You can still do fat transfer if you are skinny. There are different places to grab the fat from (behind you knee, your abdomen, butt, thighs, etc.)
I wanted to know for anyone who has had fat transfer, I am looking for a doctor who will save my fat for future use. I really don't like the idea of getting cut open multiple times, I'd rather have my fat saved and possibly cultivated for stem cells. Please respond.
bump
1st pic was taken april 2013. 2nd pic was taken feb1 2014.
the 1st pic was before restylane/ anytpe of dermroll /topical.
2nd pic is 9months post restylane, 6 months dermroll with topicals
edit--
the scar is really deep in the 1st pic, i just didnt use good lighting to show it
Dr. Rahimi does a pretty nice job.