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Do You Holistic Healthers Realize What Bad Science This Stuff Is?

 
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(@bsdetector)

Posted : 10/22/2012 5:50 am

First of all, I just want to know how you all are able to determine what foods "broke you out?" I mean, let's say you keep a food log. So what?

 

Unless you ate nothing but the same thing every day for a couple months or so, you would have no way of identifying what it was you consumed that caused you to break out.

 

And that's assuming it was something you ate that caused you to break out to begin with. Maybe it was the air quality that was responsible. Maybe it was the masturbation that was responsible. Maybe it was radiation.

 

Or maybe it was just your naturally screwed up hormones or bacterial accumulation in narrow follicles and irritation?

 

Regardless, the reality of this forum is you're just throwing a bunch of shit at the wall and hoping it sticks...and ultimately, you're more likely seeing temporary benefits from the placebo effect than anything else. But the same people keep coming back with research and talking about their diets, demonstrating that they haven't solved the acne mystery yet.

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(@o-havoc-o)

Posted : 10/22/2012 6:17 am

First of all, I just want to know how you all are able to determine what foods "broke you out?" I mean, let's say you keep a food log. So what?

Unless you ate nothing but the same thing every day for a couple months or so, you would have no way of identifying what it was you consumed that caused you to break out.

And that's assuming it was something you ate that caused you to break out to begin with. Maybe it was the air quality that was responsible. Maybe it was the masturbation that was responsible. Maybe it was radiation.

Or maybe it was just your naturally screwed up hormones or bacterial accumulation in narrow follicles and irritation?

Regardless, the reality of this forum is you're just throwing a bunch of shit at the wall and hoping it sticks...and ultimately, you're more likely seeing temporary benefits from the placebo effect than anything else. But the same people keep coming back with research and talking about their diets, demonstrating that they haven't solved the acne mystery yet.

 

While i understand what you are getting at and to a point i do agree, however everyone is different.

With some people it can be one variable that breaks them out, with others is genetic or hormonal.

In any case everyone is different and your post is very generic and ignorant in a way. Where is your proof and research that it has nothing to do with diet for ALL CASES of acne.

At least these people here are trying to do something about it. I fully admit i disagree with a lot of the posts on here but at least they can say "i tried" They are trying to get to the bottom of what causes their acne and that requires investigation. Unless you can say for 100% certainty right now diet has nothing to do with then your original post isn't accurate at all.

Everyone has a unique biology which means the react to food in different ways.

What you say is a possibility may be you should back it up with credible conclusive scientific evidence?

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(@jarrit)

Posted : 10/22/2012 7:42 am

BS Detector - do you really avoid all of those foods?

 

In any case, I've been lurking around this forum for a few years, and you do make very valid points. The holistic forum is full of information. Not all of it is pertinent to acne, and very far fetched. There is literally a stab in the dark mentality when trying to cure acne holistically. In a sense, some people go beyond helping themselves, when they attempt to cure their own acne holistically.

 

The term "holistic" in itself is a huge buzz word and has been used to market many "cures," food, even cancer treatment.

 

It's strange that anything that doesn't fall under conventional western medicine can be filed under "holistic" or "eastern medicine," or other.

 

I'm currently attempting to get a BS in Biology. I don't have an end goal for this, other than to try and supplement my acne research and learn new things. Perhaps acne might be cured with a simple pill in the future, or it might require radical changes in lifestyle.

 

This forum seems more open to new ways of curing acne. There's got to be more than just the standard topicals, pills, and "good advice" (e.g. avoid chocolate and wash your face).

 

On another note... How many of us have gotten "Have you tried pro-active?" as acne-advice, from clear-faced peers?

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(@tuffluck)

Posted : 10/22/2012 9:02 am

Who are you to say that the holistic approach = bad science? Holistic approaches exist for a reason, bc to many they have worked. EVeryone is different. Perhaps the holistic approach did nothing for you. That doesn't mean it didn't do something for someone else.

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(@bearishly)

Posted : 10/22/2012 9:26 am

Have you read any of the posts in this section? There are more scientific studies linked here than any other part of the forum.

 

Is there a lot of bad Bro Science, too? Yes. But finding unconventional ways to treat yourself is all about doing the research on your own. You won't learn much in life if you don't learn to separate the gold from the dross.

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(@alternativista)

Posted : 10/22/2012 10:35 am

When I eat oranges and most other citrus, I get cysts. When I don't eat them. I don't get cysts. Before I discovered this, I was nearly always covered in severe cystic acne and have the scars to prove it.

 

 

Perhaps the holistic approach did nothing for you. That doesn't mean it didn't do something

 

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(@bsdetector)

Posted : 10/22/2012 5:44 pm

Have you read any of the posts in this section? There are more scientific studies linked here than any other part of the forum.

Is there a lot of bad Bro Science, too? Yes. But finding unconventional ways to treat yourself is all about doing the research on your own. You won't learn much in life if you don't learn to separate the gold from the dross.

 

These studies are inconclusive at best. They use small samples and there are invariably other studies that contradict the results of said study. They tend to be obviously flawed studies, too.

Take, for instance, the study on chocolate and acne. Nowhere in that study did they mention giving anyone pseudo-chocolate, so there was no placebo to test the results against. But people in here saw that and took it as gospel. Of course.

BS Detector - do you really avoid all of those foods?

 

It's sarcastic. I'm making fun of how people on here advocate the elimination of entire food groups to the point in which there is basically nothing left to eat.

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(@jarrit)

Posted : 10/22/2012 5:45 pm

Moderation should at least be considered for all things.

 

I'm glad that views here are constantly being challenged, as that is what the holistic approach appears to do in most cases.

 

Calling someone a troll or acting as if someone is a negative person for opposing or questioning your views isn't very open-minded.

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(@daftfrost)

Posted : 10/22/2012 8:07 pm

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

 

I'll be honest, I can stay on a strict diet and maintain health and weight, but sometimes I do admit that I slack off simply because of the taste.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

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(@o-havoc-o)

Posted : 10/23/2012 3:33 am

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

I'll be honest, I can stay on a strict diet and maintain health and weight, but sometimes I do admit that I slack off simply because of the taste.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

 

I'll say again you have interesting points some of which i do agree with.

However you are being too generic with what you say. You are implying a one glove fits all situation which isn't the case.

I cut gluten out of my diet 4 months ago and have very noticeable improvements in my acne. It's not completely gone but it improved.

Others on here have experimented on themselves with diet, like cutting citrus fruits stops them getting cysts.

It worked for one person and they shared that data.

With others diet doesn't have any impact on acne but i would always advocate good diet over eating what we want just for general health.

One more thing. You said a lot of studies are inconclusive. Too true, however do you have conclusive studies to say 100% diet does not effect acne in any way?

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(@bearishly)

Posted : 10/23/2012 12:03 pm

These studies are inconclusive at best. They use small samples and there are invariably other studies that contradict the results of said study. They tend to be obviously flawed studies, too.

Take, for instance, the study on chocolate and acne. Nowhere in that study did they mention giving anyone pseudo-chocolate, so there was no placebo to test the results against. But people in here saw that and took it as gospel. Of course.

 

i don't think you understand the purpose of a placebo.

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(@maximus-decimus-merideous)

Posted : 10/23/2012 12:50 pm

These studies are inconclusive at best. They use small samples and there are invariably other studies that contradict the results of said study. They tend to be obviously flawed studies, too.

Take, for instance, the study on chocolate and acne. Nowhere in that study did they mention giving anyone pseudo-chocolate, so there was no placebo to test the results against. But people in here saw that and took it as gospel. Of course.

 

i don't think you understand the purpose of a placebo.

 

He probably meant a "control" group.

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(@alternativista)

Posted : 10/23/2012 12:51 pm

These studies are inconclusive at best. They use small samples and there are invariably other studies that contradict the results of said study. They tend to be obviously flawed studies, too.

Take, for instance, the study on chocolate and acne. Nowhere in that study did they mention giving anyone pseudo-chocolate, so there was no placebo to test the results against. But people in here saw that and took it as gospel. Of course.

 

i don't think you understand the purpose of a placebo.

 

Besides, 1) I have had long term results from my diet changes and 2) if I was susceptible to the placebo affect, why didn't any of the prescription drugs I was given ever improve my acne one bit?

Also, no one here took the chocolate study as gospel. That's just one more example of the BS in BS's posts. He's made up in his head what we believe and then attacks us for all these imaginary opinions when he is entirely mistaken about what what we discuss and do. On top of being incredibly clueless about health and nutrition.

And that would because he isn't here to participate. Only to attack. If he would participate, he might learn something.

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(@alternativista)

Posted : 10/23/2012 1:18 pm

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

I'll be honest, I can stay on a strict diet and maintain health and weight, but sometimes I do admit that I slack off simply because of the taste.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

 

I'll say again you have interesting points some of which i do agree with.

However you are being too generic with what you say. You are implying a one glove fits all situation which isn't the case.

I cut gluten out of my diet 4 months ago and have very noticeable improvements in my acne. It's not completely gone but it improved.

Others on here have experimented on themselves with diet, like cutting citrus fruits stops them getting cysts.

It worked for one person and they shared that data.

With others diet doesn't have any impact on acne but i would always advocate good diet over eating what we want just for general health.

One more thing. You said a lot of studies are inconclusive. Too true, however do you have conclusive studies to say 100% diet does not effect acne in any way?

 

Did you quote the wrong post? If not, You are almost as bad as BS making arguments against things no ine said or based on invalid assumptions. He didn't say one diet fits all. And didnt say anything about diet not affecting acne. Few people here do and when they do, they are usually come here to tell everyone their miracle cure and then leave. They are not one of the members that sticks around to help, discuss and share like daft frost.

Just like no one discussing intermittent fasting has said that the quality of the food doesn't matter, yet you've argued that point at least half a dozen times. Who are you arguing with?

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(@bsdetector)

Posted : 10/23/2012 2:13 pm

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

I'll be honest, I can stay on a strict diet and maintain health and weight, but sometimes I do admit that I slack off simply because of the taste.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

 

I'll say again you have interesting points some of which i do agree with.

However you are being too generic with what you say. You are implying a one glove fits all situation which isn't the case.

I cut gluten out of my diet 4 months ago and have very noticeable improvements in my acne. It's not completely gone but it improved.

Others on here have experimented on themselves with diet, like cutting citrus fruits stops them getting cysts.

It worked for one person and they shared that data.

With others diet doesn't have any impact on acne but i would always advocate good diet over eating what we want just for general health.

One more thing. You said a lot of studies are inconclusive. Too true, however do you have conclusive studies to say 100% diet does not effect acne in any way?

 

That's that whole "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" thing the theists try to use to argue for the existence of God.

The problem is, you can not be asked to prove a negative.

My take on all this holistic health stuff is diet may have an effect on how your immune system functions/responds, which in turn affects the appearance of acne. It has nothing to do with acne condition itself. You're not going to "regulate your hormones" with food, you're not going to reduce your oil production with food, and, as a whole, you're not going to fix the process that leads to acne.

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(@akl)

Posted : 10/23/2012 3:35 pm

Oh crap, not again... Why can't there be a discussion about holistic approaches without everyone calling each other names?!

 

Troll or not, BSDetector simply doesn't agree with much of the "evidence" presented in this forum. And that's his good right, in fact he's not even wrong on all counts, even though I don't agree with everything he says. It's very simple: the holistic approach with all the nutrient dense foods and healthy lifestyle choices will NOT eliminate acne in many cases. If anyone disagrees: show the evidence. And by "evidence" I mean real evidence, just show the studies or other evidence proving that it will eliminate acne in 90+% of the people taking this approach. The phrase "many people have cured their acne by following this or that diet" is not sufficient, nor is it true. Unless you can prove otherwise, but so far no one has been able to. We've already had stupid discussions about meat and grains, no one provided any substantial evidence at all, yet they keep claiming that certain foods are evil. Clutching at straws, that's all it is. It's exactly what Taketotheskies has said more than once: everyone is different, and there is no proof that dietary changes will help people get rid of acne, just like there's no proof it won't. From my experience, most people need more than that.

 

With that said, I'm closing this thread now and clean it up later. Name-calling and other nonsense will not make you win the argument (and I won't tolerate it), just post proof.

 

Thanks to the member reporting one of the posts here!

 

eta: topic reopened.

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(@alternativista)

Posted : 10/23/2012 4:18 pm

My take on all this holistic health stuff is diet may have an effect on how your immune system functions/responds, which in turn affects the appearance of acne. It has nothing to do with acne condition itself. You're not going to "regulate your hormones" with food, you're not going to reduce your oil production with food, and, as a whole, you're not going to fix the process that leads to acne.

 

Actually, diet affects all of those things as well as many other factors that lead to acne. Bigger factors than the immune system.

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(@bearishly)

Posted : 10/23/2012 4:24 pm

Acne is merely a symptom of something else going on in your body. What you eat affects your body; there's no way it could not.

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(@dejaclairevoyant)

Posted : 10/23/2012 4:25 pm

Calling someone a troll or acting as if someone is a negative person for opposing or questioning your views isn't very open-minded.

 

It's sarcastic. I'm making fun of how people on here advocate the elimination of entire food groups to the point in which there is basically nothing left to eat.

 

Definition of a troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[4] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Call me crazy, but I would certainly think that coming into a forum specifically devoted to people who are suffering from an unpleasant, frustrating and sometimes painful skin condition (and doing everything they know how to fight it), and admittedly making fun of those people, is trolling.

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

 

I couldn't agree more. I have eliminated many different foods and food groups in order to help my skin condition and overall health. According to BS, I should be starving to death. Yet I eat a delicious balanced dinner every night and lay on the couch after, feeling stuffed and happy. Funny eh? I must be magical. :)

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(@onefatalgoose)

Posted : 10/23/2012 4:33 pm

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

 

Agreed and Agreed

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(@alternativista)

Posted : 10/23/2012 4:46 pm

Calling someone a troll or acting as if someone is a negative person for opposing or questioning your views isn't very open-minded.

 

It's sarcastic. I'm making fun of how people on here advocate the elimination of entire food groups to the point in which there is basically nothing left to eat.

 

Definition of a troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[4] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Call me crazy, but I would certainly think that coming into a forum specifically devoted to people who are suffering from an unpleasant, frustrating and sometimes painful skin condition (and doing everything they know how to fight it), and admittedly making fun of those people, is trolling.

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

 

I couldn't agree more. I have eliminated many different foods and food groups in order to help my skin condition and overall health. According to BS, I should be starving to death. Yet I eat a delicious balanced dinner every night and lay on the couch after, feeling stuffed and happy. Funny eh? I must be magical. :)

 

Yes. His posts are perfect examples of trolling. And he's rarely posted anything else. He also knows nothing about us. We do not all follow the same diet. We are not all addressing the same health issues. And we certainly do not avoid all food groups to the point there is nothing left to eat. His ridicule and attacks are based are invalid assumptions clearly pulled from the place BS usually comes from.

.

. It's very simple: the holistic approach with all the nutrient dense foods and healthy lifestyle choices will NOT eliminate acne in many cases. If anyone disagrees: show the evidence. And by "evidence" I mean real evidence, just show the studies or other evidence proving that it will eliminate acne in 90+% of the people taking this approach.

 

If that is what he said, then it would be a valid discussion as opposed to a troll. Although it would be a completely pointless post as few people here would and ever have argued that 100% of cases could be cleared via diet alone.

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(@akl)

Posted : 10/23/2012 6:32 pm

Yes. His posts are perfect examples of trolling. And he's rarely posted anything else. He also knows nothing about us. We do not all follow the same diet. We are not all addressing the same health issues. And we certainly do not avoid all food groups to the point there is nothing left to eat. His ridicule and attacks are based are invalid assumptions clearly pulled from the place BS usually comes from.

 

OK, that last sentence made me lol lol.gif

Anyway, if that's this community's definition of trolling, then everybody posting a "This is the cure" topic (with the best intentions, obviously) is a troll as well. But they're taking a holistic approach, so they're hardly ever under attack. I'm all for proper diets (though that's subjective) and a healthy lifestyle, but I also don't mind people questioning the methods and science that are posted here. All people replied with are vague and general terms, nothing to the point (some exceptions). It's a trend in this forum to call people "not helpful" or even trolls whenever they question something. To them I'd say: question your own logic and research, always. And try to keep an open mind, it won't hurt. I'm definitely with jarrit on this.

Deja, I agree, the "making fun of" part is unnecessary, he could have done without, but you called him a troll before he posted that, and that's unnecessary as well. I also agree with alternativista and Bearishly that what you eat affects your body. It's impossible for it not to. But that's hardly enough evidence to say that what you eat causes acne, or that avoiding certain foods or even entire food groups will get rid of it, no matter what your diet is like. Some people are able to find their trigger(s) and eliminate acne by avoiding them, but in my experience most people aren't that lucky. It's my guess that this is what BSDetector is trying to say, in his own, peculiar way. He does have a point when saying that it could be external factors playing a role as well, since just about everything has completely changed over the last century.

If that is what he said, then it would be a valid discussion as opposed to a troll. Although it would be a completely pointless post as few people here would and ever have argue that 100% of cases could be cleared via diet alone.

 

Haha yeah, exactly!

@BSDetector: what is your diet like? Do you have acne, if so, what grade? Have you tried eliminating certain foods? Which ones, for how long? Sleep schedule? Stress levels? (yes, I've read your post in which you asked what stress is. Do a Google search, you'll find out) Exercise? You must have a reason why you're so convinced that a holistic approach doesn't have any impact on (your) acne at all, I assume.

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(@dejaclairevoyant)

Posted : 10/23/2012 8:28 pm

Deja, I agree, the "making fun of" part is unnecessary, he could have done without, but you called him a troll before he posted that, and that's unnecessary as well.

.

I was going off of threads from the past as well. But I have nothing personal against the dude.

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(@o-havoc-o)

Posted : 10/24/2012 3:14 am

These studies are inconclusive at best. They use small samples and there are invariably other studies that contradict the results of said study. They tend to be obviously flawed studies, too.

Take, for instance, the study on chocolate and acne. Nowhere in that study did they mention giving anyone pseudo-chocolate, so there was no placebo to test the results against. But people in here saw that and took it as gospel. Of course.

 

i don't think you understand the purpose of a placebo.

 

Besides, 1) I have had long term results from my diet changes and 2) if I was susceptible to the placebo affect, why didn't any of the prescription drugs I was given ever improve my acne one bit?

Also, no one here took the chocolate study as gospel. That's just one more example of the BS in BS's posts. He's made up in his head what we believe and then attacks us for all these imaginary opinions when he is entirely mistaken about what what we discuss and do. On top of being incredibly clueless about health and nutrition.

And that would because he isn't here to participate. Only to attack. If he would participate, he might learn something.

 

Nothing to eat? There's much to eat, it's just that you are choosing the wrong one led by your desire of wanting to eat.

I'll be honest, I can stay on a strict diet and maintain health and weight, but sometimes I do admit that I slack off simply because of the taste.

I also used to think "what is there to eat when there's no grains", but hell was I wrong.

 

I'll say again you have interesting points some of which i do agree with.

However you are being too generic with what you say. You are implying a one glove fits all situation which isn't the case.

I cut gluten out of my diet 4 months ago and have very noticeable improvements in my acne. It's not completely gone but it improved.

Others on here have experimented on themselves with diet, like cutting citrus fruits stops them getting cysts.

It worked for one person and they shared that data.

With others diet doesn't have any impact on acne but i would always advocate good diet over eating what we want just for general health.

One more thing. You said a lot of studies are inconclusive. Too true, however do you have conclusive studies to say 100% diet does not effect acne in any way?

 

Did you quote the wrong post? If not, You are almost as bad as BS making arguments against things no ine said or based on invalid assumptions. He didn't say one diet fits all. And didnt say anything about diet not affecting acne. Few people here do and when they do, they are usually come here to tell everyone their miracle cure and then leave. They are not one of the members that sticks around to help, discuss and share like daft frost.

Just like no one discussing intermittent fasting has said that the quality of the food doesn't matter, yet you've argued that point at least half a dozen times. Who are you arguing with?

 

Yeah i did, my bad.

I was wondering why i was getting a strong post from you?

I was meant to quote a post above the one i quoted from the OP

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(@tritonxiv)

Posted : 10/24/2012 12:02 pm

Diet has nothing to do with my acne, but naturally the holistic forums are going to claim that almost everything can be cured through proper nutrition and diet.

 

Sorry to say it, but it's not true.

 

I did many elimination diets with zero positive or negative effect. I ate incredibly healthy with every supplement under the sun. I cook all my own food with fresh ingredients. What cleared me 100% after many many years was avoiding orgasms.

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