INTRAcel would be a perfect treatment for your acne and acne scarring. Whilst it is micro-needling, the same as dermarollers, the machine applies the correct pressure, rather than relying on the pressure applied by your Doctor. Furthermore, it is combined with radio frequency energy to encourage collagen regrowth Whilst INTRAcel is a relatively new machine in the UK, it is clinically proven to assist with acne, acne scarring and skin-tightening - all the things it sounds like you need.

I have had an INTRAcel treatment and can vouch that there is no downtime (just redness and slight puffiness for 24 hours). If you choose a highly experienced Doctor you should achieve excellent results. Dr Natalie at Light Touch Clinic in Guildford ([Removed]) was the 3rd Clinic in the country to get INTRAcel and as a result is highly experienced. As Guildford is just 30 minutes from London you could always go and see her? Especially as she offers complimentary consultations.

Good luck

Hi James

So sorry for your bad experience.

Did you ever take the drug Accutane? as this drug impairs healing

DermaPen will superseed dermaroller everywhere, had first treatment yesterday and it is sooooo much better !

I am honestly sick of looking at the embarrassing patches of ice pick scars on both my cheeks... Can anyone recommend a product for me to try? Please. This is just too depressing. Whatever the product is, I can test try it on a small patch to gauge reaction.

Thank you!

Katie, thanks for your reply, I would be quite nervous about having Intracel, even a patch test, as my skin really has lost it's ability to heal. spots that used to clear in a day or two can take weeks to fully clear now. I would be worried about my skin not being able to heal from any treatment that causes an initial trauma.

girlie, I've never taken accutane, prior to this dermaroller treatment my face would always heal just fine.

hi james

did you moisturise your skin with vitamin A and C prior to dermarolling, at least 2 weeks prior???

Did you take supplements such as zinc, ample amounts of vit C for collagen repair???

I've done more than 5 dermaroller treatments since last year and I have not had any of these effects. Nothing negative.

you said you had this done 5 years ago. How long after that treatment did you first notice the negative effects?

girlie, I wasnt told to do or take anything prior to treatment by Dr Chu and to this day none of the doctors or dermatologists I have seen since have recommended me taking vitamin C supplements. It was only a few weeks ago when I read that it may help skin heal that I have started taking some.

Tortuga, it was obvious after a couple of weeks that my skin was not healing, it was still red and I'd also been left with a thin white horizontal scar under my right eye which I noticed immediately.

I was certain too that the skin was structurally damaged. Every person knows what their own face feels like to touch; I told Dr Chu that my skin no longer felt the same. I had no way to quantify it but at the time I estimated the area he treated lost 60 to 70% of its firmness following his treatment.

It was only in November 2011 that I managed to get ultrasound scans done, the results showed a skin density reading of 40 for the area Dr Chu treated and a density reading of 52 for the rest of my skin!

I was told that these results should have been similar. They collate all results and compare yours against people of the same age. My normal skin density level is considered above average, the area Dr Chu treated is below average!

Ive tried everything I can thats supposed to help build collagen levels, Imedeen tablets and Dove Spas strength within. Beaute Pacifique make some big claims on their site about their creams, backed up with ultrasound before and afters, but my worry is that the damage done goes deeper than that.

Id really like to speak to a skin specialist who understands skin structure and can pinpoint exactly what damage has been done. I dont know if its possible for dermarollers to damage facial muscles but whatever happened was serious enough that my skin was not able to heal itself naturally.

Nope, I really don't know what was damaged within the structure of my skin. I don't know what size dermaroller Dr chu used, I suggested to him it may have been damaged and that might explain the linear and punctuate scarring, 'I don't use damaged dermarollers' was all he said. He repeatedly refused to carry out any test or examination, even telling me that there wasn't any way to examine skin beneath the surface. It was through my own research that I discovered Dermascan which is designed specifically to measure skin density levels.

I only got the scans done to prove to the doctors and dermatologists I was seeing that my skin was structurally damaged, I knew it was damaged just by the feel.

It's difficult to explain but on the areas the Dermaroller was used it's very hard to grab and hold the skin between two fingers, it's like there's nothing underneath to grab onto. Yet once you try and grab the skin in areas that weren't treated, literally a centimetre away, it is much thicker and easier to hold onto.

I never had any similar problem with dermarolling either. I have kind of heard of similar things from fractionated laser, like loss of fat, even though they swear the lasers don't go that deep either. I wonder if you have fluid build up under the skin from the inflammatory response? Maybe you should be on something like prednisone. Your reaction sounds rare so you could have an autoimmune problem of the skin. I have been tested for lupus myself as I had abnormal swelling in scars, they just deemed it dermatitis, however, I tested negative for lupus. But later I doctor said you can still have the skin problem and not systemic so sometimes it is hard to detect it. Dermastamping individual scars is better in my opinion.

Tricia, I've never had any kind of autoimmune problems before, I'd had one dermaroller treatment previously and not suffered this reaction, also, I was sent for allergy tests that came back negative.

One thing that did interest me was your comment about lasers causing loss of fat, which was something I had never heard of before. It does sound similar to what happened to me (loss of firmness etc). But the reason I was sent for IPL was to treat the damage that had already been done by the dermaroller, the redness and the linear scarring appeared post dermaroller/pre-IPL.

Theres no doubt the IPL did reduce the redness, but reading peoples horror stories about IPL it does seem possible it also contributed to the damaged structure of my skin.

I'd assumed all along that the collagen level was damaged, which is why I've been using vitamin A creams and taking Imedeen tablets. I hadn't considered or been told of the possibility of 'fat loss'.

I've just started taking high strength vitamin C in tablet form, but would it be better to try the topical treatment? does anyone recommend a particular vitamin C serum that's worked for them?

I would really like to speak to a skin specialist who is trustworthy and knows their stuff, so if anyone has any recommendations of people they've seen they think may be able to help me, I would really appreciate hearing from them.

This is the second case of dermarolling problems I have heard

It will cost money but you could always search out a good plastic surgeon and get fat transfer to your face, it would definitely plump it back up but your face shape may change and the fat may not last as long as you like. I just don't see how a dermaroller could cause fat loss as it shouldn't be that long, ya know, and I assume your fat is located at the same depth as everyone elses. If you want to look at La Viv by Fibrocell that can help your body build back your own collagen. Just google providers. I have read many of the stories about laser causing fat loss and I do believe them but there is than unknown variable with the laser, like maybe the think backfired somehow or the doctor botched it. But a dermaroller seems pretty straight forward, the needles are just not that long.

I just re-read that you had undergone isolagen prior with Dr. Chu. That is now LaViv in US, so maybe it would help but you would have to travel.

Do you/have you smoked cigarrettes? Are you diabetic?

Both of these could signficantly impair your healing process.

never smoked, not diabetic, as mentioned in an earlier reply, prior to this treatment my skin would always heal.

The most upsetting thing is it was near perfect, this would probably have been my last treatment. I have copies of letters Dr Chu sent to my GP prior to this treatment stating 'James looks wonderful' and 'I'm finding it hard finding any scars to treat'!

The problems I had were trivial in comparison to now.

hi james i have had two derma roller treatemtns with dr chu, and this post is scaring me ... i have not got the really bad results u have got, but on the other hand i wouldnt say my skin has improved as of yet (but i know u need a good few treatments) ... i must say i feel like my better side of my face doesnt look that good :S ... there seems to be more scars, but i dont kow if thats in my head... i have heard good of dr chu and i just want to get an improvement x

On 6/20/2012 at 3:56 AM, Nope.avi said:

On 6/19/2012 at 9:54 PM, Remicade said:

This is the second case of dermarolling problems I have heard

He drops a bit more info on it here: http://www.essential...ad.php?tid=4239

here. https://www.realself...ng-inflammation

here. http://www.skincell....e;topic=25534.0

They pretty much all read the same, but each one had a bit of information the last one didn't.

Do you see where im comming from now. This thread is just one of many i encountered where dermarolling ruined peoples skin.This indivdual got bad results in the hands of a so called ''professional''. Since you alrdy posted here, means you ARE aware of the fact that dermarolling can cause damage. Now im really starting to wonder what you are up to by trying to convince people to dermaroll. something is fishy here.....

To james909 i am truly srry for what hapened to you. i wish you can sue that basterd for what he did to you, Only if you was warned before treatment about the dangers of dermarolling....

James, thanks so much for the Dermaroller warning, and I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I know it's been a few months since you wrote in, but I just found your comments and had some ideas for you in case you check back in.

First, my personal feeling is that I would avoid any other mechanical therapies for your skin at this time. By mechanical, I mean therapies that would peel, puncture, or otherwise cause sudden changes in the structure of your skin that it would need to repair.

Second, from what I recall on the original Dermaroller website, this instrument works by causing minute damage to the collagen underlying the skin. It is the skin's efforts to repair that damage that rebuilds collagen, and in doing so, it corrects scar tissue and provides other benefits.

Based on that, is it possible that the Dermaroller caused some type of unusual damage to your skins collagen versus the fat layer? If so, maybe you could try some natural, gentle therapies to rebuild that collagen. I would recommend that you talk to certified natural health practitioners, such as herbalists, naturopaths, homeopaths, and those knowledgeable in aromatherapy/essential oil. I have used natural therapies sucessfully for a wide variety of conditions for many years, and I think it may offer some good options for you. Here are a couple of examples you could consider, but please ask a certified natural health practitioner before using them.

Rose Hip Essential Oil For external use only. This oil has lots of Vitamin C and is known for rebuilding collagen in the skin and reducing scarring. The Vitamin C would also help your skin improve its ability to heal. I dont know if you would need to dilute it in a carrier oil or not. Ask your natural health practitioner, and try it on a small patch of skin that did not receive the Dermaroller for a week first. (There are also other essential oils that have similar actions.)

Stinging Nettle Herb This herb helps rebuild tissues in the body. I dont know that its ever been used for this purpose, but it would definitely be looking into. This can be taken internally as a tea, and you can also make it into a separate tea that you let cool and then dab with a cotton ball gently on your skin externally every day. Again, I would try it on a small test patch for a week first. (There are also other herbs that may be able to help with scarring that you can ask your natural health practitioner/s about.)

Hope this helps.

bump

I'm not a fan of "professional" treatments....

I do my own regular dermarolling at home using a safe size dermaroller by Dr Philippa of www.cleaskincare.com.u (i.e. 0.25mm length & diameter). I also do my own more intensive single needling on stubborn scar areas. Topical vitamins are essential i.e. C & A (I use fresh lemon juice & retin a...but you can use dermatological serums). Massaging for 15 to 30 minutes after dermarolling with a 0.25mm roller is also very helpful.

Yes, it sounds like the doctor was too aggressive, made too many passes and used a far too long needle length....they say 1.00mm - 1.5mm size needles plus are for the body not the face...

I'm not a fan of "professional" treatments....

I do my own regular dermarolling at home using a safe size dermaroller by Dr Philippa of www.cleaskincare.com.u (i.e. 0.25mm length & diameter). I also do my own more intensive single needling on stubborn scar areas. Topical vitamins are essential i.e. C & A (I use fresh lemon juice & retin a...but you can use dermatological serums). Massaging for 15 to 30 minutes after dermarolling with a 0.25mm roller is also very helpful.

Yes, it sounds like the doctor was too aggressive, made too many passes and used a far too long needle length....they say 1.00mm - 1.5mm size needles plus are for the body not the face...

what kind of scarring do you have aqua?u seem to have a tremendous amount of knowledge with healing and treating atrophic scarring. how long have you been dealing with your scars?

Hi No Hope

I have already fixed most of my acne scarring in the past...I had shallow rolling scars and rough skin texture....I also had lots of red skin through major BP damage and my forehead was severely damaged by longterm BP use i.e. very lined, mottled, aged, pigmented, bumpy, asphyxiated....

I returned recently on this board because I badly burned my skin through using a glycolic acid peel + retin a....in the past, I had no problem with the glycolic acid peel, but the retin a thinned my skin and 3 months ago, I received 2nd degree burns to my face...and they were very bad...It's taken me 3 months to recover from it....beta glucan liquid helped my skin grow back & the intensive single needle pricking helped the collagen to reform (I know it's not advisable, but I used a hygienic safety pin to needle my skin - of course, it's better to use a lancet or proper single needle from owndoc.com)...I'm 90-95% recovered (it truly amazes me to see my face now from where it was just 3 months ago!!!)...I also managed to recently heal a TCA scar, some scars on my chin and 3 surgical scars on my cheeks from mole removals (I massaged my skin along with single intensive skin needling/ rolling for 4 weeks and the scars have just about disappeared - however, you need to eat/ drink super healthy & to use retin a, fresh lemon juice to maximise results)....indeed, healing scars it quite easy to do...it just takes time (1 month for skin cells to renew and 2-3 months for collagen to reform - NB gentle daily exercise helps kick-start the production of your human growth hormones/ factors ), healthy eating, retin a, vitamin c (I now advocate fresh lemon juice not glycolic acid peels), B3 niacinamide (this transformed my forehead! But use it in a proper serum otherwise it could scar your skin as it can exfoliate your skin aggressively), beta glucan liquid, intensive single needling for deep/ stubborn scars and weekly skin rolling with either a 0.25mm or 0.5mm dermaroller. You need a consistent, longterm, multi-pronged approach...

So, it took about 1.5 years to heal most of my acne scarring i.e. 95%...however, the red skin is chronic...this has been by far the most difficult thing to rectify in my experience (and my forehead too)...I guess my skin is still healing from the severe BP damage...however, it is getting much better from using the fresh lemon juice & super green face masks i.e. super green powder by Synergy Natural {chlorella/ spirulina/ wheat grass/ barley grass) + Manuka honey (factor 10) + fresh lemon juice. Also, I drink a fresh veg/ fruit juice daily with a scoop of super green powder. This helps heal my body at a DNA/ RNA level. And I try to get a little sunlight daily on my skin too for vitamin D.

I know that everyone can heal their skin, they just need to take a holistic approach, use key topicals that work and be diligent over 1 to 2 year period. However, if you don't eat healthy, are feeling down all the time and drink soda/ coffee/ teas etc, you aren't going to heal your skin. That's because your skin can only heal if you are feeling your best, eating/ drinking very healthy, gently exercising & generally at your optimum wellness level. Only then can dermarolling work. Because for collagen to begin reforming after the controlled injury to your skin through dermarolling, your body needs optimum nutrition & a strong immunity - otherwise, the dermaroller won't work effectively. The key to maximise dermarolling results is to get super healthy, fit, well & use key topicals...i.e. cultivate a super positive mindset before you start dermarolling/ eat well/ drink well/ gently exercise/ use good topicals/ sleep well/ be well...then when you dermaroll, you'll see results within 2 to 3 months that will motivate you to keep-up with the dermarolling & healthy lifestyle. Just keep assessing your progress every 2-3 months to get a true indication of how well dermarolling is improving your skin.

Lastly, YOU MUST DO MORE INTENSIVE SINGLE NEEDLING ON MAJOR SCARS/ DEEP SCARS. Massaging the area for 15 -30 minutes after needling is also very helpful (use a natural oil like grapeseed, rosehip, jojoba, and then wash off if you're still acne prone). You should follow the needling with fresh lemon juice and on occasion, retin a, beta glucan and a dermatological serum with B3 Niacinamide. See The Body Deli, Pure Skin Junkie, Jes Organics, Bion Research etc for some good topicals...

Cheers

PS Healthy food/ drink should be delicious just as much be nutritious !!!

PPS A few drops of copper peptides is also good...

new poster here ^^

just to give a bit of context to the dermaroller treatments:

a .25mm roller only partially penetrates the stratum corneum and its main purpose is for the penetration of topical ointments, which reportedly increases boiavailability (how much active ingredient makes it into your skin) by up to 1000%. The larger dermaroller needles penetrating up to 2.5mm penetrate through the epidermis and epidermal-dermal junction, which is about as far as they should go in order to stimulate the collagen growth.

Ttwo main things can go wrong in a dermaroller treatment. If you roll too hard you can push the needle into dermis, which goes past the dermal stem cells (fibroblasts) that produce collagen. Any physical damage beyond this point won't necessarily harm you, but it isn't doing any good either. and if the dermaroller is not properly sterilised, you can introduce bacterial pathogens into the localised area, causing infection-related inflammation (hence you would not use dermaroller with any active cases of acne).

the fat-lipid layer loss that accompanies some dermaroller, fraxel, and other laser treatments is a phenomenon that science has not been able to explain yet -the occurances are too rare and for better or worse the people involved do not volunteer themselves for further study and the medical community does not have any accurate pathophysilogical models to work off. unfortunately, what the original poster advised they were told by the skin doctor is wrong - exactly the same side effects can occur with laser treatments, 'potentially' due to the redox reaction they cause in your skin. extremely rare, and i don't know of any studied cases, but there is at least one complain on RealSelf about this reaction.

I can understand some of your frustrations with the treatment and good advice is definitely hard to find in a money-driven field like this. However, don't you think any treatment that carried absolutely no risk of side effects would not already be used universally around the world? We are all pretty self conscious of our appearance

Lasers burn, destroy eccrine glands, and can cause unintentional pigmentory changes. Dermarollers can introduce bacterial infections. Both have a rare chance of causing neuropathies, autoimmune reactions or other side effects. No different to any other medical treatment, really.

Hope that provides some context