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girlie

My First Attempt at Dermarolling = Amazed

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Hi Everyone:

This has been 2 years in the making! I did get some great advice from members here on the board, namely Lamarr and others.

Anyway, two years ago, was the first time I heard of dermarolling. Did tons of research in those 2 years, but was too much of a nervous nellie, until now to try it.

I think I have already gotten improvements with dermarolling after my first attempt. unless this is still swelling, which I hope not

Can you still have swelling after 4 weeks? doesnt seem to be

Anyway, I did a trial dermastamp. I purchased the dermastamp rather than roller. I figure from everything i have read, it is safer, and less chance of tearing the skin, as its stamping motion, rather than rolling; feel i have more control over a dermastamp.

So a month ago,I stamped just my temples. Wanted to see how my facial skin reacted, as I do have sensitive skin

I have decided against using any numbing cream. the dermastamp i used is 0.75mm

It stung; kind of like a grazed burning sensation. but thats okay, as for me, its temporary pain. There was some redness, and i immediately applied my professional terproline cream, that lamarr recommends on another board.

I have seen an improvement on one of my temples already. It is much shallower the scarring there, the other temple, not as much improvemnt, but just a small improvement.

I have a question tho....

do u think different areas of the face react differently? such as do you think the cheeks would react/heal different to the temples, or forehead|??? Would cheeks be more sensitive than temples???

I am pretty impressed with my first attempt

i did up my vitamin c intake a few weeks before attempting dermastamp tho.

I definitely think taking supplements beforehand to help skin heal itself, is crucial to great results.

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That sounds very interesting - i'm curious to hear about the rest of your journey. please do keep posting. this is something i'm considering and been reading up for a while - and like you am scared to give it a shot. my other option is to go for some sort of laser treatment but the side effects/long term effects i hear abou those are really freaking me out. this seems a lot safer.

where did you order your dermastamp from and does it come with the numbing cream and other creams that you're using before and after? I would love it if you could share your regime with me so i have a sense of how this works. Still in the stages of collecting information and researching my options.

A dermatologist recommended to use a home roller twice weekly and to get one that is 0.5mm in depth as the deeper ones can cause bleeding and shouldn't be used at home. What are your thoughts?

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hi there

I have decided against using numbing cream.

I have also been watching a guy dermaroll on youtube, his name is raysdermaroller.somehow watching it seems to ahve desensitised my nervousness, not the pain of course though. but the pains not that bad.

I also read that the skin reacts better without numbing cream, so i want to have as many pluses as possible towards the healing,a nd am willing to forego the numbing cream

as far as needle length i wont go deepoer than an 1mm. unless i was getting absolutley no results.

the 0.75mm is working so far. but that was just on my temples. plus i am only doing this \once a month to be on the safe side. i feel more comfrotable with that.

good luck

there r tons of great articlkes out there. do some research and be well prepared.

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let me know how you go. this is sooo exciting. i can see my skin healing up completley and being smooth and healthy looking again.

Out of efverything i researched, dermarolling has the best odds, with the least amount of risks that is what i have bene lookihng for.

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Yes, thats why i'm looking into it. Too afraid to try lasers or resurfacing. Still trying to figure out which dermaroller/stamp to buy and from where. PM me if you have a link or website you suggest. Thanks

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From what I have read the length you are using does not penetrate deep enough to do anything other than help you absorb your topical better unless you are only using it where the skin is thin at...like the temples compared to thicker areas of the face. You could probably use that .75 stamp once a week safely if not more. I use a 2.0mm dermastamp every 6 weeks and a 0.5mm stamp every other day. I use to use a 2.0mm dermaroller and the pain with it compared to a stamp is like comparing pulling a single hair out of your head to having some1 taking a pair of pliers...grabbing as much hair as they can with it and ripping every bit of it out....over and over. I also use the temproline professional, red/infrared leds and 20% l-ascorbic acid. I have only been doing this since the end of april though. I plan to stick with it 2 years before shooting for fraxel.

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I'm wondering if the length should be less for older people since their skin has less collagen and their dermis is thinner.....

Girlie,

How do you use the stamp exactly? I've read a ton about the roller but not the stamp.

healing,

Which are you saying is more painful?

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From what I have read the length you are using does not penetrate deep enough to do anything other than help you absorb your topical better unless you are only using it where the skin is thin at...like the temples compared to thicker areas of the face. You could probably use that .75 stamp once a week safely if not more.

Where did you read that? I actually read that 0.5 mm and above can induce collagen. I believe there have been studies that concluded that 0.5 mm was sufficient to induce collagen, but I'll have to check.

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In one study they found new collagen and elastin fiber at about 0.5-0.6 mm from the surface but the study was done with 1.5 mm dermaroller. If your scars are deep 0.5 mm doesn't reach the bottom of the scar. When you roll don't forget to stretch the skin with the other hand.

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I think that length can help. I don't think anyone should go over 1.5 because it will penetrate the dermis, which can cause more scarring. Some people have thinner (or thicker) skin, so a shorter length would be better for them. Personally, I'd work my way up.JMO.

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Personally, I think it's bad to press hard with any length. I think 2.0 is too long for pretty much anyone since it goes into the dermis and can cause infection and more scarring. If you bleed at all with your roller you should use a new one each time. And people whose skin is thinner, like older people, probably have their dermis even closer to the epidermis since it thins out over the years. If you exfoliate or use retin-a, your dermis is likely closer because you're shedding your epidermis quicker than if you don't exfoliate. If it were me, I'd work my way up to higher lengths to see how I reacted to lower ones.

Edited by Prettywords

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Without a doubt rolling hurts worse and there is more bleeding. I dont see how you cant bleed while using it. I bleed when I use the 0.5mm stamp. When I use the 2.0mm roller blood actually drips off my face. When I use the 2.0mm stamp however it bleeds a little more than the 0.5mm stamp. When you push down you have to do it pretty firmly and stretch the skin while you do it or you could just end up pushing in on the fat on your face and not getting full penetration

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Edited by healing2.0

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In general, deeper needle penetrations into the dermis produces better collagen and elastin production. (However, it is also more risky. ) The breaking of blood vessels appears to be key in kick-starting the 12-month healing and reorganizing phase. Anecdotal evidence supports this as some people have reported that treated areas that bled and scabbed led to better results than ones that didn’t. With very short needle lengths, the needle only reaches the topmost layer—there may be improvements, but no dramatic results. This is also less risky. However, even with very short needle lengths, you may find improvements as any topicals you use after needling will penetrate deeper and become more effective many times over.

link

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Hi Healing

sorry I forgot about this thread

I used it just on my temples, where the skin is very thin.

But look at my skin there now, it looks like very minimal improvement

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Keep stamping and evaluate the situation after 12 months . If after 12 months no improvment it means dermarolling it's not working for you.

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Hi Healing

sorry I forgot about this thread

I used it just on my temples, where the skin is very thin.

But look at my skin there now, it looks like very minimal improvement

Hey Girlie, thanks for sharing. Can I ask, how is your skin now, were the improvements you saw at 4 weeks maintained? Have you done any other sessions since?

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From what I have read the length you are using does not penetrate deep enough to do anything other than help you absorb your topical better unless you are only using it where the skin is thin at...like the temples compared to thicker areas of the face. You could probably use that .75 stamp once a week safely if not more. I use a 2.0mm dermastamp every 6 weeks and a 0.5mm stamp every other day. I use to use a 2.0mm dermaroller and the pain with it compared to a stamp is like comparing pulling a single hair out of your head to having some1 taking a pair of pliers...grabbing as much hair as they can with it and ripping every bit of it out....over and over. I also use the temproline professional, red/infrared leds and 20% l-ascorbic acid. I have only been doing this since the end of april though. I plan to stick with it 2 years before shooting for fraxel.

do u use the 0.5 stamp on ur whole face or just ur eye area.

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The whole frequency thing is ridiculous everyone. Everyone is trying to opt for a "more" approach and this is NOT the case with skin healing. I used a 1 mm derma roller and waited 7 weeks because collagen formation takes time. Also, you need to UP your zinc intake (I take 100mg/day with a multivitamin so it's around 116m/day and I make sure the chromium/magnesium intake is up as well (zinc increases the risk of running a deficiency in those two). Also I use a vitamin c serum which has helped IMMENSELY.

My regimen (Topicals):

H&S CC face wash (AM & PM)

Aveeno Calming face wash (PM)

Vitamin C serum (The Body Shop) (3x/day)

Differin 0.3% (PM)

Vitamins/Minerals:

Zinc 50mg (2x/day)

Multivitamin (1x/day) (to maintain magnesium/chromium levels)

Vitamin D3 (2,000 IU/day)

Super B Complex (1x/day)

Overall I have seen a HUGE improvement in my scars, I would say after my first treatment with the 1mm derma-roller I have seen a 15%+ improvement in my skin and how it looks.

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The whole frequency thing is ridiculous everyone. Everyone is trying to opt for a "more" approach and this is NOT the case with skin healing. I used a 1 mm derma roller and waited 7 weeks because collagen formation takes time. Also, you need to UP your zinc intake (I take 100mg/day with a multivitamin so it's around 116m/day and I make sure the chromium/magnesium intake is up as well (zinc increases the risk of running a deficiency in those two). Also I use a vitamin c serum which has helped IMMENSELY.

My regimen (Topicals):

H&S CC face wash (AM & PM)

Aveeno Calming face wash (PM)

Vitamin C serum (The Body Shop) (3x/day)

Differin 0.3% (PM)

Vitamins/Minerals:

Zinc 50mg (2x/day)

Multivitamin (1x/day) (to maintain magnesium/chromium levels)

Vitamin D3 (2,000 IU/day)

Super B Complex (1x/day)

Overall I have seen a HUGE improvement in my scars, I would say after my first treatment with the 1mm derma-roller I have seen a 15%+ improvement in my skin and how it looks.

Congratulations! That sounds very promising. What kind of scars are you treating if I may ask - rolling, ice-pick or boxcars? Shallow or deep?

I'm considering dermarolling and individual needling, but I'm still in the research and test needling phase. I'm treating shallow-moderate boxcars and very shallow ice-picks/scarred pores.

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The whole frequency thing is ridiculous everyone. Everyone is trying to opt for a "more" approach and this is NOT the case with skin healing. I used a 1 mm derma roller and waited 7 weeks because collagen formation takes time. Also, you need to UP your zinc intake (I take 100mg/day with a multivitamin so it's around 116m/day and I make sure the chromium/magnesium intake is up as well (zinc increases the risk of running a deficiency in those two). Also I use a vitamin c serum which has helped IMMENSELY.

My regimen (Topicals):

H&S CC face wash (AM & PM)

Aveeno Calming face wash (PM)

Vitamin C serum (The Body Shop) (3x/day)

Differin 0.3% (PM)

Vitamins/Minerals:

Zinc 50mg (2x/day)

Multivitamin (1x/day) (to maintain magnesium/chromium levels)

Vitamin D3 (2,000 IU/day)

Super B Complex (1x/day)

Overall I have seen a HUGE improvement in my scars, I would say after my first treatment with the 1mm derma-roller I have seen a 15%+ improvement in my skin and how it looks.

Congratulations! That sounds very promising. What kind of scars are you treating if I may ask - rolling, ice-pick or boxcars? Shallow or deep?

I'm considering dermarolling and individual needling, but I'm still in the research and test needling phase. I'm treating shallow-moderate boxcars and very shallow ice-picks/scarred pores.

I am treating very shallow atrophic (slightly boxcar-ish but mainly rolling) long scars on my face. The ice pick scar hasn't improved as much, I think it may have become slightly smaller in diameter but color wise its still pretty hyperpigmented. The two atrophic hyper-pigmented rolling/boxcar-ish scars though have become smoother a bit less noticeable. But overall it's the texture/evenness of my skin that has improved from the derma-rolling the most. Although for me it's difficult to pinpoint what is causing the 'fixing' the timeline of events in the recent past suggests that it would be from the derma rolling. Its November 30th and I derma-rolled on November 22nd, and thats only a part way to the 2-3 week mark which is when more drastic improvements are seen, but you can see the progress to those improvements around a week or so in (I would say this is a fairly rapid improvement).

Enough about me, and I would like to address your piece. First things first, shallow-moderate boxcars respond well usually to derma-rolling/PCI/CIT. The boxcars I had on my temples have dramatically decreased in size, reduced in their scar-ish look, and have become smoother. I wouldn't say they are perfect but once again this is 8 days out for a treatment that runs 6 weeks plus per treatment so all I can say is that I am impressed. Shallow ice-picks/scarred pores will respond well but only with the right understanding and procedure.

I will outline below what that is:

Understanding CIT/PCI.

A quick google scholar search with the terms "Percutaneous Collagen Induction" or "Collagen Induction Therapy" will bring up numerous articles. There are 6-8 that show the efficacy of PCI/CIT in the context of scarring/acne etc.. These pertain to us.

A quick summary of what all of them say.

1) Scars are made of collagen/elastin, both of which are found in normal skin.

2) The difference between scars and normal skin is that scar tissue collagen fibers are parallel vs. the latice pattern healthy normal skin has.

3) Pigmentation differs because of insufficient healing in the melanocytes, which reside in the lower layers of the skin.

ALL scar treatments rely on:

a) cutting the scar out and trying to make the 'next'/'new' scar less noticeable

b) damaging the scar with micro-wounds so that the skin has a chance to re-heal (CO2 lasers, Fraxel, Erbium lasers...etc).

The problem with lasers and such is the issue of hyper/hypo-pigmentation. Whereas these can go "too deep" and harm the menlanocyte via thermal tissue damage, the small size of micro needs simply go 'between' melanocyte cell bundles, resulting in no damage.

Before you micro-needle these steps cannot be overlooked.

1) If you are on a strong retinoid regimen, take that into consideration (I would say Differin 0.3% is the max you should be if you are to derma-roll).

2) Vitamin C 500mg and Zinc 50mg+/day

3) Multi-vitamin

4) Healthy diet overall (At least be aware/mindful)

5) A managed acne regimen that has been fairly fail proof for at least 5 months.

6) Vitamin C serum

These are all used to prepare your body to be able to respond quickly (time is of the essence) and efficiently to the micro wounds you are creating. Just as someone who wants to work out needs to provide themselves with enough nutrients and protein to promote muscle growth, you need to prepare your skin for HEALTHY collagen growth.

So we have our 'ingredients'. The topical retinoid should be on for the past 3 months if not longer. The Vitamin C serum should be applied 2x/day for at least a month before hand. The Zinc + Vit. C supplements should be administered for about 2 weeks before any needling. This gets your body primed for fast/efficient healing.

The needling piece itself:

1) Buy a quality CIT/PCI device. Owndoc has its reviews, I would utilize that in making your decision. To be on the safe side don't buy a PCI/CIT device off Amazon, they can be good/can be bad, please don't play Russian Roulette with your skin, it ruins the image of what derma-rolling is and its effectiveness. You wouldn't buy someone's "homemade Asprin" to treat pain and then when you get sick tell everyone "Asprin" doesn't work, so don't do that to PCI/CIT.

2) Either:

A) Get a quality scar cream that has proven ingredients (Invicible Scars has Vit. C, Aloe Vera, Silicone, 2 EFA oils) or just use a quality Vitamin C serum/product. Be careful it's not too oily.

3) Read/watch many instructions/videos on how to derma roll effectively. Please do not become someone who announces how they have "rolled 5+/week with a 1mm", that is NOT what any of the medical professionals or professional CIT clinics do. It's a 6-8 WEEKS for any needle length that deems the procedure a "Medical Procedure". Needle length for Medical procedure is usually equal to or greater than 1mm.

4) The star pattern is officially out (rolling vertically, horizontally, and diagonally) This over does a small centered piece of skin that gets way too many holes poked. I would recommend just vertically horizontally.

5) Pressure, I would say do what is slightly uncomfortable but bearable. I did NOT use a numbing cream the first time I rolled so I could gauge the pressure/pain I was applying. This worked rather effectively, I looked sunburned (I don't usually, I have brownish skin), and that went away over 48 hours, which indicates an effective roll.

6) After you roll, wait 15-20 minutes before you apply anything. The product penetration will still be there, but introducing a substance RIGHT after you roll has had some side effects such as extreme burning (sensation, not actually skin burning- EXCEPT in the case of people who have rolled and applied tazorac right after, HUGE NO-NO).

7) Wear an SPF 50+ the next day if you HAVE to be outside. Try to remain indoors for the first 48 hours. It takes 5-ish hours for the holes to heal, but the photosensitivity is there for approximately a solid week, by day 7 your skin should be fine.

So thats all the technical bits and pieces of it all, here is what the process/time line of events usually appears as:

T+ 12 hours: Skin is burny, maybe itchy. Things after your first night of sleep will look 'plump', this is due to micro-swelling, no actual improvement has taken place.

The skin is still in the hemostasis phase. It's sending out appropriate hormones, growth factors, coagulating agents to respond to the 'injury'.

This segues into the inflammatory response phase, which lasts 4 to 6 days. During this time your skin is actually responding to the hormones, growth factors, coagulating agents that had arrived to the injury. The skin will gradually begin to look slightly worse as this phase goes on due to the fact that the micro-swelling goes down and the skin looks tired for a few days. As the proliferation phase kicks in which is between day 4 and 24, the skin becomes its own barrier fully once again. During this stage your body begins rebuilding the structures into the 'wound', blood vessels, macrophages, etc.. This is when you will see the very first signs of a very slight but noticeable improvement if everything else was done correctly. After this period has passed, which can go even further than day 24 (it's been observed to last 30-40 days) the skin moves into the remodeling phase. This is where the actual and long lasting improvement takes place. As the skin has now developed the infrastructure to improve, the actual improvements begin. This lasts from day 30 onwards for the next 6-8 months at minimum. During all these phases, you will greatly benefit from supplying your skin topically with nutrition (Vitamin C, scar creams, things that don't burn or make you break out) and internally with good nutrition. By advocating for your skin and internal health your body has the proper building blocks and tools to begin the repair work.

I hope you found this post helpful.

Edited by kesh22

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Great post Kesha. Question. Since remodelling occurs for 6-8 months, wouldn't it make sense to wait until after this time period to roll again? What impact does new wound creation have on that remodelling process if one were to roll again prior to the conclusion of this time period?

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Thank you for that post, kesh22. :) I have pretty much come to the same conclusions, but it's good to have all the relevant information in one place! The reason why I haven't tried dermarolling or needling properly yet is the fact that right now my acne regimen is not working well enough. I need to sort out the mild inflamed acne I've been getting recently, but after that I'm looking forward to trying needling and dermarolling.

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Michi31 - The reason you do not have to wait 6-8 months is because the proliferation phase is what you're really after. By re-repeating the cycle 1-2 months after, you're keeping the area of your skin that you're treating in the proliferation phase. The proliferation phase is vital because skin that is blemished/broken/scarred/injured in any way suffers from a lack of adequate resources so that it can be healthy and continually improve. Topicals work wonder for 'healthy' skin because skin is able to absorb and utilize the nutrients/active ingredients in those topicals. By forcing your body to re-build the 'infrastructure' (capillaries, blood vessels, collagen/elastin) and then by providing quintessential vitamins/minerals for their organized healthy development, you are giving your body what it needs to improve the damaged area.

Note to my last post concerning my regimen. I have adjusted my zinc intake for a reason I feel everyone should be aware of. Zinc alters your body's ability to absorb iron. Iron deficiency is normally found in women due to 'that time of the month' but malabsorption is the second leading cause of iron deficiency. I would suggest that 30mg is plenty for anyone. I was taking 116mg and recently was not allowed to donate blood due to low blood iron levels. If you notice excessive hair shedding, tiredness, fatigue, I would strongly recommend you either see a doctor or intensively research your own case (I understand that for some going to the doctor isn't an option due to health costs, but if any serious symptoms show up that impede your ability to work/function, please see a doctor). Despite all the research one can do, remember that by introducing a new level of any vitamin or mineral into your body, you are changing a delicate balance in a highly complex system. Please take precautions and be mindful of how you feel following any changes.

Best of luck to all

Edited by kesh22

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