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13 minutes ago, cnb30 said:

Finasteride only made things worse

It was a ballsy move taking that but I commend you for trying!!

Not like Roche is ever going to show accountability for putting us in this shit - no responsibility what so ever from them.

It leaves people with little choice but to experiment to get their life back.

Good to hear you’re having better days!!

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Posted (edited)

have you seen this study?

@Dubya_B

Treatment of male rats with finasteride, an inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase enzyme, induces long-lasting effects on depressive-like behavior, hippocampal neurogenesis, neuroinflammation and gut microbiota composition

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305067

 

One month of finasteride withdrawal induced depressive-like behavior.•

Decrease of neurogenesis occurred after one month of finasteride withdrawal.•

GFAP immunoreactivity was increased after one month of finasteride withdrawal.

Finasteride treatment and its withdrawal induced neuroinflammation in hippocampus.

Gut microbiota composition was affected by finasteride treatment and its withdrawal.

 

 

Edited by guitarman01

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, cnb30 said:

Finasteride only made things worse

Did you have any sort of temporary recovery before getting worse? Development of any new symptoms? Any other noteworthy observations? Sorry for being a pest, but I'm genuinely curious about this. I've gone as far as ordering finasteride when I was in a really dark place in the hopes of experiencing what it's like to be alive again, if only for a brief time,  before I die, but backed out at the final moment. The pills are still sitting in my cabinet and I will probably never touch them again.

 

@guitarman01 Yes, very familiar with that study. Very confusing path that Prof. Melcagni's research has taken. He went from a very insightful study showing undetectable levels of key neurosteroids in the cerebrospibnal fluid of PFS patients to studying typical latent effects of finasteride in rats. How many of the rats had PFS, a condition that may have  a rate of occurrence as low as 1/1,000 in humans? The vast majority of people who take the drug don't complain of lasting side-effects, even if they may have detectable long-term changes in their biology. This would be the same as trying to explain post-Accutane side-effects going by data on the typical Accutane patient, who is also unlikely to have severe lasting side-effects. The study you posted is interesting nonetheless, but isn't really a study of PFS if you think about it.

On a related note, something surprising I stumbled upon last Summer shows an effect of ATRA on neurosteroidogenesis in glial cells contradictory to what one would expect after studies have shown decreased hippocampal neurogenesis after ATRA treatment:

 

A. Kushida and H. Tamura, “Retinoic acids induce neurosteroid biosynthesis in human glial GI-1 Cells via the induction of steroidogenic genes,” J. Biochem., vol. 146, no. 6, pp. 917–923, Dec. 2009.
 
H. K. Lee, M. S. Yoo, H. S. Choi, H. B. Kwon, and J. Soh, “Retinoic acids up-regulate steroidogenic acute regulatory protein gene,” Mol. Cell. Endocrinol., vol. 148, no. 1–2, pp. 1–10, Feb. 1999.
 
 
Edited by Dubya_B

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2019 at 11:00 PM, Dubya_B said:

Did you have any sort of temporary recovery before getting worse? Development of any new symptoms? Any other noteworthy observations? Sorry for being a pest, but I'm genuinely curious about this. I've gone as far as ordering finasteride when I was in a really dark place in the hopes of experiencing what it's like to be alive again, if only for a brief time,  before I die, but backed out at the final moment. The pills are still sitting in my cabinet and I will probably never touch them again.

 

@guitarman01 Yes, very familiar with that study. Very confusing path that Prof. Melcagni's research has taken. He went from a very insightful study showing undetectable levels of key neurosteroids in the cerebrospibnal fluid of PFS patients to studying typical latent effects of finasteride in rats. How many of the rats had PFS, a condition that may have  a rate of occurrence as low as 1/1,000 in humans? The vast majority of people who take the drug don't complain of lasting side-effects, even if they may have detectable long-term changes in their biology. This would be the same as trying to explain post-Accutane side-effects going by data on the typical Accutane patient, who is also unlikely to have severe lasting side-effects. The study you posted is interesting nonetheless, but isn't really a study of PFS if you think about it.

On a related note, something surprising I stumbled upon last Summer shows an effect of ATRA on neurosteroidogenesis in glial cells contradictory to what one would expect after studies have shown decreased hippocampal neurogenesis after ATRA treatment:

 

A. Kushida and H. Tamura, “Retinoic acids induce neurosteroid biosynthesis in human glial GI-1 Cells via the induction of steroidogenic genes,” J. Biochem., vol. 146, no. 6, pp. 917–923, Dec. 2009.
 
H. K. Lee, M. S. Yoo, H. S. Choi, H. B. Kwon, and J. Soh, “Retinoic acids up-regulate steroidogenic acute regulatory protein gene,” Mol. Cell. Endocrinol., vol. 148, no. 1–2, pp. 1–10, Feb. 1999.
 
 

Nope, Only worse. I’m so numb emotionally now that I’m at a point where I can’t even remember what it’s like to feel emotions. Sure, I’ve had some improvements, and am hoping that things work out in the long run with this fast, but as a whole, this past year has been significantly worse (like every year)(other than some improvements post fasting).

 

I’ve had some testosterone improvements since cutting out vitamin A though, but as a whole, I will be shocked if I am alive in 5 years unless this diet really works (it’s been less than a month so I’m hesitant to draw conclusions). Not because of any thoughts of suicide, but because I feel like something health wise (like a major organ) will fall apart to a point where I just randomly die, perhaps in my sleep or something.

 

I beg of you not to take that drug.

Edited by cnb30

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On 4/22/2019 at 7:18 AM, cnb30 said:

Nope, Only worse. I’m so numb emotionally now that I’m at a point where I can’t even remember what it’s like to feel emotions. Sure, I’ve had some improvements, and am hoping that things work out in the long run with this fast, but as a whole, this past year has been significantly worse (like every year)(other than some improvements post fasting).

 

I’ve had some testosterone improvements since cutting out vitamin A though, but as a whole, I will be shocked if I am alive in 5 years unless this diet really works (it’s been less than a month so I’m hesitant to draw conclusions). Not because of any thoughts of suicide, but because I feel like something health wise (like a major organ) will fall apart to a point where I just randomly die, perhaps in my sleep or something.

 

I beg of you not to take that drug.

You'll be fine. I bet you live well into your 80s :)

Life's funny like that. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Justdry said:

You'll be fine. I bet you live well into your 80s :)

Life's funny like that. 

I don’t need the snark, and I hope somebody kicks you off of here if you keep it up. It’s unnecessary. 

 

To be honest, I’ve been having serious suicidal thoughts again anyway. While certain things seem to temporarily improve when I do things, my depression/numbness seems to have worsened. I think it will be very hard for me to continue living unless I’m somehow able to push myself to get an architecture degree. I bet I will be dead within 5 years (hopefully if nothing gets better).

Edited by cnb30

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On 4/18/2019 at 2:02 PM, Akos said:

@under_tow

TWO MORE ASSUMPTIONS MADE BY GRANT GENEREUX

 

Third assumption:

- Lard and casein contain retinoic acid. It is not impossible, but he knows this “by thinking and reasoning”, not by analyzing those things.

Remember that Genereux thinks that, in the Vitamin A deficiency experiments with rats, the animals worsened their health and then died because of the supposed content of RA in lard and casein.

ME: Have you confirmed that lard has indeed RA?

GG: I have not confirmed that. I don't have a lab. I'm just one guy. I have to rely on thinking and reasoning.

ME: As a reader, I would like to see a confirmation, something that could be achieved just by analyzing lard in a lab. And the same goes to RA in casein: “Therefore, in their zeal for sterilizing the casein, they converted its included vitamin-A into its most toxic form.” Is this confirmed in the lab?

GG: Me too, maybe someone can confirm this. That would be great.

 

Fourth assumption:

- Grant Genereux’s diet does not contain RA.

ME: Where do you see if a food has Vitamin A, just surfing the Web?

GG: Yes, just enter vitamin A in food X in a google search

ME: Are there foods with retinoic acid? How do you know if certain food has RA if the people who analyze it and list its nutritional facts don’t look for RA?

GG: I've not found a listing of retinoic acid levels in foods.

--

ME: But if I cook a carrot, for example, is the VA transform into RA, by means of “heating and aeration”?

GG: I think it could be. But, I don't have lab tests to back that up yet. Tomatoes would be risky too.

 ME: You eat applesauce, aren’t you eating RA?

GG: I don't think so. The apple sauce is very low in VA and therefore I doubt that it has retinoic acid (RA). Also, I only very occasionally eat apple sauce.

 

So, he doesn’t know for sure if applesauce has RA, but he is not worried because it contains only a small amount of VA.

Hey, thanks for the additional info.   This is still a work in progress theory, so there will be those against and those for testing, those points have come up lots.

Some people are seeing progress doing low VA, that have either been on isotretinoin or just consumed to much carotenoids or pre-formed VA.  Jury is still out, but hopefully people will find these posts and make there own informed decisions.

I am close to 6months and will report at one year how things have proceeded.

 

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4 minutes ago, under_tow said:

Hey, thanks for the additional info.   This is still a work in progress theory, so there will be those against and those for testing, those points have come up lots.

Some people are seeing progress doing low VA, that have either been on isotretinoin or just consumed to much carotenoids or pre-formed VA.  Jury is still out, but hopefully people will find these posts and make there own informed decisions.

I am close to 6months and will report at one year how things have proceeded.

 

Are your symptoms emotional/sexual by any chance? Have you seen any improvement?

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38 minutes ago, cnb30 said:

Are your symptoms emotional/sexual by any chance? Have you seen any improvement?

Hey @cnb30

I have all skin related issues; yellow discoloration, redness, excessive dryness/flaking, excessive sebum oil, plugged pores, dandruff, hair shedding, etc..

I did not get mental and sexual sides, like many have reported, I suspect that they were very minor for me.  If I got those with the skin issues, I probably would not be here anymore...

Seeing less shrinkage on the low VA diet, more nocturnal wood, and libido is strong.

 

I hope the benefits continue, rooting for you man!

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, under_tow said:

Hey @cnb30

I have all skin related issues; yellow discoloration, redness, excessive dryness/flaking, excessive sebum oil, plugged pores, dandruff, hair shedding, etc..

I did not get mental and sexual sides, like many have reported, I suspect that they were very minor for me.  If I got those with the skin issues, I probably would not be here anymore...

Seeing less shrinkage on the low VA diet, more nocturnal wood, and libido is strong.

 

I hope the benefits continue, rooting for you man!

 

Eh, I’m not sure if I’m having benefits, or it’s just psychosomatic.

 

Anyway, with the way my mental health has declined the past year, I’m probably going to be dead within a couple months anyway. Thanks for letting me know that the no Vit A diet actually doesn’t help me with anything I need, and that it’s just for people with dryness.

 

Also, if you are not dealing with mental/sexual side effects, you are in no position to naïvely claim it will all get better (and of course include your stupid snarky emoji). 

Edited by cnb30

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2 hours ago, cnb30 said:

Thanks for letting me know that the no Vit A diet actually doesn’t help me with anything I need, and that it’s just for people with dryness.

Those I just my symptoms(most of them common), everyone is different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A#Signs_and_symptoms

Lists on the sexual sides, that I hope would benefit from depleting VA:

https://nutritionrestored.com/blog-forum/topic/poison-vitamin-a-lowers-testosterone-and-damages-the-testes-testicles/

 

2 hours ago, cnb30 said:

Also, if you are not dealing with mental/sexual side effects, you are in no position to naïvely claim it will all get better (and of course include your stupid snarky emoji).

I am not claiming it will get better, the only way to tell if it will help you, is to put in the time.   There is no cost, just the effort of avoiding VA foods.

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Sure he can do the Anti A diet but he’ll be disappointed if down the track it’s found HPA is screwed and needs attention to fix.

That’s attention from a specialist. So again, people need to stop self diagnosing and do the hard yards by working with someone.

You can avoid Vit A simultaneously if you want - the two don’t have to be seperate!!

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2019 at 4:52 PM, cnb30 said:

Eh, I’m not sure if I’m having benefits, or it’s just psychosomatic.

 

Anyway, with the way my mental health has declined the past year, I’m probably going to be dead within a couple months anyway. Thanks for letting me know that the no Vit A diet actually doesn’t help me with anything I need, and that it’s just for people with dryness.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/grant-genereuxs-theory-of-vitamin-a-toxicity.24722/

I recommend heading to the above link and reading through all the info there on people's symptoms and progress with various issues. Afaik it's the best place to familiarize oneself with what people have achieved with low - no vit A diets and for general discussion of the theory behind it (both for and against). Lots of valuable info to go over if you are pursuing it.

Also a decent amount of info available from people on the diet at Grant's blog/forum here:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/

--------------------------------------

Also, if you haven't already I would recommend reviewing the information/research/experience shared by @Tryingtohelp2014 https://www.acne.org/profile/425960-tryingtohelp2014/

I feel a lot of it has been skipped by many and there is some valuable information shared by him(and others) in this thread that could likely help at least some people.  I am hesitant to recommend a particular strategy as I have personally made my progress through self experimentation and endless general research on information shared by others online, without input from consultation with health professionals (due to issues with social anxiety).. I appreciate this is generally not the best idea for most.

However, I believe I have benefited quite a bit from some of his ideas/strategies, taking supplemental taurine before meals has been beneficial for my digestion and copper 2mg taken on most days for the past 6 months seems to have helped a lot with my mental health/brain function and likely improved skin quality/moisture (am no longer reliant on moisturizing to prevent extreme facial dryness whereas had been for a very long time). I also added zinc later only infequently and now only take both once or twice a week.

I believe Tryingtohelp's posts covered some specific relations (at least decent science backed theory) with copper in relation to accutane. (Thank you @Tryingtohelp2014 and others involved in the discussion for all the info you have shared).

Some other points regarding copper/zinc.

- Digestive issues causing malabsorbtion from dietary sources could cause a deficiency. (If issues are partly related to malabsorbtion any dietary strategy would likely need supplemental digestive aids to help break down food properly. (Betaine HCL for low stomach acid or/and the taurine for helping bile production and potentially digestive enzymes.)
- Zinc is reliant on copper, you can't correct a zinc deficiency without first correcting any pre-existing copper deficiency. Whereas correcting a copper deficiency may be able to resolve a zinc deficiency assuming adequate dietary intake of zinc is present. (This could be an avenue relevant in sexual sides due to zinc's role in that system). Supplementing zinc whilst having a copper deficiency would make the copper deficiency worse whilst failing to solve the zinc deficiency.
- Involvement in formation of connective tissues (collagen/elastin)
- Supplemental copper may have a side effect of helping clear bacterial overgrowth in small intestine
- Play an important role in brain health

----------------------------------------

They certainly haven't solved everything and have not been the only supplements I've been taking, but do feel I've made the most quantifiable improvements around them (copper/taurine).  Am currently 24days into a vitamin A depletion diet in hopes of making further progress, primarily with mental health and dermatitis.

Having been here some time I know it's likely some or all of my post will not be news to you, but I do hope something is helpful.

 

Edited by Warrah
Coherence

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That Zinc/Copper relationship is bang on!!!

remember many many pages ago there were heaps of us with Copper issues post tane.

I wish I could find a genuine link but I saw it in my Kinesiologists room today - a chart on “Neuroimmunolgy”, the Zinc/Copper relationship is stated loud and clear on it - it’s a fundamental aspect of repairing our immune systems!!

Much of this breaking down of biofilms that I’ve been banging on about is stated in chart too, all in relation to rebuilding Immune system 

The end goal is all about balancing left and right sides of brain. Admittedly that doesn’t explain very much but what much of us have been banging on about all these years here on forum fits together with this kinesiology work I’m pursuing right now.

Start reading up on Neuroimmunolgy if nothing else.

 

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On 4/23/2019 at 3:09 PM, cnb30 said:

I don’t need the snark, and I hope somebody kicks you off of here if you keep it up. It’s unnecessary. 

 

To be honest, I’ve been having serious suicidal thoughts again anyway. While certain things seem to temporarily improve when I do things, my depression/numbness seems to have worsened. I think it will be very hard for me to continue living unless I’m somehow able to push myself to get an architecture degree. I bet I will be dead within 5 years (hopefully if nothing gets better).

I wasn't being snarky. I thought you meant dead from post accutane health not mental health. 

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Posted (edited)

Also, the more I think about it, the more I realized that I think Propecia might’ve done damage to my pituitary gland. I don’t know how else to describe this but it’s almost like it’s constantly pumping something in my head to the point where it hurts. Also, it’s intensely worse right after masturbating. Anybody have any idea what I can do to deal with the problem?

Edited by cnb30

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, cnb30 said:

Also, the more I think about it, the more I realized that I think Propecia might’ve done damage to my pituitary gland. I don’t know how else to describe this but it’s almost like it’s constantly pumping something in my head to the point where it hurts. Also, it’s intensely worse right after masturbating. Anybody have any idea what I can do to deal with the problem?

Have you ever had your prolactin levels checked out? If they are high, it could be indicative of a prolactinoma which is a benign tumor that sits on the pituitary gland that constantly secretes prolactin into your system.

Elevated prolactin levels can cause erectile dysfunction and low libido (I have read cases of people reporting absolutely zero libido, similar to many people here, due to elevated prolactin). Elevated prolactin can also effect your "drive" for life too since it's an antagonist of dopamine. Prolactinomas can also cause  headaches, and although I am no doctor, at first glance it makes sense that you get a headache after masturbation because prolactin is released after climax.

Do you have any vision problems? They are associated with prolactinomas as well.

Edited by HumaneCyclone
More info

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HumaneCyclone said:

Have you ever had your prolactin levels checked out? If they are high, it could be indicative of a prolactinoma which is a benign tumor that sits on the pituitary gland that constantly secretes prolactin into your system.

Elevated prolactin levels can cause erectile dysfunction and low libido (I have read cases of people reporting absolutely zero libido, similar to many people here, due to elevated prolactin). Elevated prolactin can also effect your "drive" for life too since it's an antagonist of dopamine. Prolactinomas can also cause  headaches, and although I am no doctor, at first glance it makes sense that you get a headache after masturbation because prolactin is released after climax.

Do you have any vision problems? They are associated with prolactinomas as well.

I don’t think I’ve had too many vision problems, although the tumor would make sense as I remember people mentioning it as a possible Finasteride side effect. Also, it feels as though someone is slowly secreting some sort of cold mist through my dopamine passageways as well (if that’s what prolactin feels like). You aren’t the first person to have mentioned increased prolactin either, but that would make sense.

Is there anything I can do about it? I’m kinda back at a point where I feel as though I’m at the end of a string, and I don’t want to live anymore if it means being in the state I’m currently in.

 

I also took Abilify for a time, and I know that increases prolactin levels too, right?

Also, I should add that I don’t really have the money or time to get these tests done, and don’t know how the hell to convince my parents.

Edited by cnb30

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7 hours ago, cnb30 said:

Also, the more I think about it, the more I realized that I think Propecia might’ve done damage to my pituitary gland. I don’t know how else to describe this but it’s almost like it’s constantly pumping something in my head to the point where it hurts. Also, it’s intensely worse right after masturbating. Anybody have any idea what I can do to deal with the problem?

Could be HPA dysfunction- extended periods of raised cortisol levels have depleted the system, adrenal fatigue sets in amongst gut issues and depression.

I’d work on the theory that’s it’s related to this over a tumour but it wouldn’t hurt to get prolactin tested just to be sure.

I go in each week for my kinesiology treatment and raise the possibility that I have this and that, my specialist says he doubts it - he’s pretty sure he knows what’s going on so far. This week I even mentioned Myopathy due to muscle fatigue but he dismissed it.

Accutane can cause myopathy and it can cause tumour growth - these are both documented. So again I stress the importance of working with a specialist, if nothing else it will ease the burden of trying to work all this shit out for yourself- that’s just too stressful in my opinion 

let us know if you do any tests - post results if that’s ok.

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Posted (edited)

another thing worth mentioning is that I have began to exercise and lift weights fairly heavily the past few weeks, and I am wondering if perhaps this is affecting something. For example, I was just finished lifting weights, and that seems to have at least helped the problem somewhat with what I think was the “prolactin”. 

 

Also, I wouldn’t call what I’m dealing with “depression” per say. I don’t have a “low mood” as much as “no mood”, and I don’t feel lethargic either.

Edited by cnb30

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Posted (edited)
On 4/25/2019 at 9:59 PM, cnb30 said:

I don’t think I’ve had too many vision problems, although the tumor would make sense as I remember people mentioning it as a possible Finasteride side effect. Also, it feels as though someone is slowly secreting some sort of cold mist through my dopamine passageways as well (if that’s what prolactin feels like). You aren’t the first person to have mentioned increased prolactin either, but that would make sense.

Is there anything I can do about it? I’m kinda back at a point where I feel as though I’m at the end of a string, and I don’t want to live anymore if it means being in the state I’m currently in.

 

I also took Abilify for a time, and I know that increases prolactin levels too, right?

Also, I should add that I don’t really have the money or time to get these tests done, and don’t know how the hell to convince my parents.

Prolactin is very interconnected with dopamine. So, assuming you have elevated prolactin levels, increasing dopamine would be a way to effectively treating elevated prolactin. This is an actual way of treating/getting rid of prolactinomas actually: They usually give you a drug named Cabergolin which is a dopamine agonist (meaning it mimics the effects of dopamine).

On 4/26/2019 at 12:04 AM, cnb30 said:

another thing worth mentioning is that I have began to exercise and lift weights fairly heavily the past few weeks, and I am wondering if perhaps this is affecting something. For example, I was just finished lifting weights, and that seems to have at least helped the problem somewhat with what I think was the “prolactin”. 

 

Also, I wouldn’t call what I’m dealing with “depression” per say. I don’t have a “low mood” as much as “no mood”, and I don’t feel lethargic either.

Exercising is known to increase dopamine, so it makes sense that you feel better after exercising. Although, exercising too much can also elevate prolactin since prolactin can be categorized as a stress response hormone (it increases in concentration due to things such as mental and physical stress).

Also, I personally have elevated prolactin levels, and I know there are many theories going around on this forum and others, but I personally believe that for accutane, the sexual side effects are due mainly because of dopamine/serotonin disruption. We know for a fact that Accutane has the ability to negatively influence the dopamine circuity of our brains (I'll link the study if you'd like), and it also effects serotonin aswell. I feel like this could also partially explain why people believe it's the Androgren receptor being down regulated that's causing our symptoms because serotonin is known to be a potent AR inhibitor.

Also i know people have mentioned the D2 receptor and what not as being something of importance, but I don't believe it's getting the amount of attention that it should be getting.

If you'd like, pm me and I'll discuss my theory more.

 

Edit: Here are some links to studies discussing Accutane and dopamine

Accutane's effect on D2 receptor (although it doesn't entirely focus on it, just ctrl-f "D2): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637283/

 

Edited by HumaneCyclone

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2019 at 10:00 PM, Dubya_B said:

On a related note, something surprising I stumbled upon last Summer shows an effect of ATRA on neurosteroidogenesis in glial cells contradictory to what one would expect after studies have shown decreased hippocampal neurogenesis after ATRA treatment:

sorry for the long pause. Maybe the paradoxes come into effect looking at a higher sustained dose such as Accutane.

by MH Theus - ‎2017 - ‎Cited by 2 - ‎Related articles

All-Trans-Retinoic Acid Augments the Histopathological Outcome of Neuroinflammation and Neurodegeneration in Lupus-Prone MRL/lpr Mice. Show all authors.

 

 

What's one of the mechanisms? 

 

Dec 3, 2014 - Lupus is a well-known autoimmune disease that causes inflammation in several organs and can sometimes be fatal. ... Vitamin A has been shown in humans to relieve the symptoms of Lupus, so the researchers fed the Lupus mice both retinol (pure vitamin A), as well retinoic acid (a metabolite of vitamin A).
 
So then what goes wrong in these small groups post Tane, Fin, and SSri's?
 
is it more human genetics or bacterial genetics?
 

More than half your body is not human - BBC News - BBC.com

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43674270

The field is even asking questions of what it means to be "human" and is leading to new innovative treatments as a result.

 

Genetically we're even more outgunned.

The human genome - the full set of genetic instructions for a human being - is made up of 20,000 instructions called genes.

But add all the genes in our microbiome together and the figure comes out between two and 20 million microbial genes.

Prof Sarkis Mazmanian, a microbiologist from Caltech, argues: "We don't have just one genome, the genes of our microbiome present essentially a second genome which augment the activity of our own.

"What makes us human is, in my opinion, the combination of our own DNA, plus the DNA of our gut microbes."

 
Edited by guitarman01

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