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1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Accutane is known to cause depression- fact.

Accutane has shown it can cause brain damage- fact.

How can we tell the difference, does the brain damage cause the depression??

These are the questions I’d like to know, I think if I could repair my brain the depression would go - for others you might substitute depression with ED.

I want to know about deep healing without the usual medication they offer up - been there done that!!! for me going down the medication path feels like a bandaid solution.

What else is there? Hyperbaric oxygen therapy perhaps?

I'm surprised that you didn't look into the vitamin A deplete diet more. It doesn't involve medication and there are two entire ebooks freely available explaining the theory.
There's a writer called Matt Stone who's really interested in the chronic vitamin A poisoning theory. Apparently he has quite a large following and he's going to be working to publicize the research presented in those ebooks. He's working with a nutritionist to devise a low vitamin A diet.
I've been doing it for about a month now. It's not that much time but I certainly feel better.
I don't understand why anyone suffering side affects from accutane wouldn't want to know more about this and actually want to give it a go and see what happens. 

Thanks    
 

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Antipsychotics cause Tardive Dyskinesias and my understanding is we don’t yet have a successful treatment for it. 

Just to clarify the symptoms I’m attributing to Depression would be:
Low Mood, Low Energy, Poor Cognition, Poor Memory, Anhedonia, Sleep Distrubances - these are classic features of Depression.
GI Disturbances and Pain, Muscular Pains, Weakness, Erectile Dysfunction, Paraesthesias - these are classic psychosomatic features of Depression.

I’m not saying that Eye Floaters, Thin Skin, Bruising, Delayed Wound Healing and Skin Elasticity are Psychosomatic. But neither am I categorically agreeing that these are due to the drug. Again I really would advise going onto a non-acne medical forum and seeing how many people complain about Delayed Wound Healing. Everyone seems to think that they should heal the way they did when they were a child/teenager. Unfortunately its a fact of life - the older you get the slower your wounds heal. Once you get >50 they might not heal at all. Think of how thin and covered in bruises the skin of old people often is and they probably never took accutane.

Overall I agree accutane probably alters brain chemistry in some way and precipitates Depression. TrueJustice as far as I am aware - there is no macroscopic “brain damage” that can be detected with a scan. I think that a lot of the other problems stem from Depression. Just ponder this - do your other symptoms (the ones im saying are psychosomatic) get worse when your depression gets worse.

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12 hours ago, Benjamin94 said:

Hi Devolution and True Justice. Firstly I again apologize about berating you about Eye Floaters. Evidently I was wrong there and you are using the correct term.

Can I also assure you that I’m not saying that your symptoms are not real. Thats not what psychosomatic means. Facticious Illness means you are making the symptoms up. Psychosomatic means that your brain is causing the symptoms subconciously, due to depression usually. My example with pre-exam anxiety was just to prove to you that mental state can cause somatic symptoms. So if you have a permenantly ill mental state, i.e. depression, its very plausible that this can cause somatic symptoms. This is the psychosomatic theory. 

Can I suggest you take a trip onto another medical forum, Patient.info for instance and look at all the people complaining of exactly the same issues as you who never had acne and never took accutane. A lot of these issues are very common and are currently believed to be psychosomatic conditions as far as conventional medicine is concerned. The main cause of ED in young men is Depression, i.e. its a psychosomatic manifestation of Depression. Tired all the Time and Cognitive Reduction are again two major symptoms of Depression. Eye Floaters are obviously not psychosomatic and you can pursue treatment for those if they’re bothering you.

I had a look at that paper Devolution and yes it nicely shows a link. But it certainly doesnt prove that any of those drugs have caused neurological degeneration of the Pudendal Nerve. I still think that its more likely that accutane is causing ED via causing Depression.

True Justice - I genuinely think your cognitive dysfunction will be due to Depression. I think if you were to have an MRI it would be normal. Lumbar Punctures are done to diagnose meningitis and MS. If you do want investigation, the first step would be to do a cogntive test, such as the Montreal Cognitive Assessment or the Addenbrooke’s Cognitive Assessment.

The PIL is being up-dated to include permanent sexual sides!!

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@hatetane I’m not denying that it causes sexual side effects. We’re debating mechanism. @Devolution Its been thought for a long time that accutane would slow wound healing, due to its antiproliferative effects, but only whilst you’re actually on it. Recent studies have even thrown this into doubt however and instead suggest wound healing is normal. If you search “isotretinoin and wound healing” on pubmed and select best match - and read the conclusions in the abstracts on the surgical study and porcine study, you’ll see what i mean.

I’m sorry but i dont think the “long term vitamin A toxicity” theories are true and I dont think avoiding vitamin A will fix your problems - you can measure vitamin A levels in the blood really easily. I think it would have been found if this drug was resulting in that. Edited by Benjamin94

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Made an appointment to see an endo. Never got my hormones tested/read by someone who actually knows what they’re doing. So it’ll be interesting to see. Idk if my high FSH and LH was just a random one time thing but could be that this chemo drug fried my nuts and left me primary hypo. Who knows at this point. Will keep ya updated. Honestly getting so exhausted fighting this shit. 

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1 hour ago, Benjamin94 said:

Antipsychotics cause Tardive Dyskinesias and my understanding is we don’t yet have a successful treatment for it. 

Just to clarify the symptoms I’m attributing to Depression would be:
Low Mood, Low Energy, Poor Cognition, Poor Memory, Anhedonia, Sleep Distrubances - these are classic features of Depression.
GI Disturbances and Pain, Muscular Pains, Weakness, Erectile Dysfunction, Paraesthesias - these are classic psychosomatic features of Depression.

I’m not saying that Eye Floaters, Thin Skin, Bruising, Delayed Wound Healing and Skin Elasticity are Psychosomatic. But neither am I categorically agreeing that these are due to the drug. Again I really would advise going onto a non-acne medical forum and seeing how many people complain about Delayed Wound Healing. Everyone seems to think that they should heal the way they did when they were a child/teenager. Unfortunately its a fact of life - the older you get the slower your wounds heal. Once you get >50 they might not heal at all. Think of how thin and covered in bruises the skin of old people often is and they probably never took accutane.

Overall I agree accutane probably alters brain chemistry in some way and precipitates Depression. TrueJustice as far as I am aware - there is no macroscopic “brain damage” that can be detected with a scan. I think that a lot of the other problems stem from Depression. Just ponder this - do your other symptoms (the ones im saying are psychosomatic) get worse when your depression gets worse.

Hi Benjamin.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but Accutane has been shown to decrease mRNA expression and metabolic activity of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. This enzyme produces neurological steroids that are vital in maintaining both mood and sexual appetite.

Nearly all categories of depression are associated with lowered neurosteroid levels and one of these, allopregnanolone, is currently in clinical trials to treat severe postpartum depression.

So, I have to argue that it is better explained as an altered neurological biochemistry than psychosomatic. That's just a fighting word around these parts.


There are also many who experience severe ED after Accutane with no comorbid depression.
If you really want tangible evidence of Accutane causing bodily harm, then try cross-referencing information on isotretinoin and carotid artery thickening, decreased ovarian reserve, premature epiphyseal closure, rhabdomyelosis, thyroid gland atrophy, and meibomian gland destruction. Pretty solid stuff.

btw- Carotid artery thickening is a sign of atherosclerosis, which is strongly associated with ED. Maybe that's why I also had high blood pressure at 18 years old, after taking Accutane?

. Edited by Dubya_B

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Hi Dubya

Whilst Premature Epiphyseal Plate Closure and Meibomian Gland Dysfunction are at present recognised side effects.

Carotid Artery Stenosis, Rhabdomyolysis and Thyroid Disease are not. 

Most cases of Hypertension are at present idiopathic (i.e. we still don’t know what goes wrong). Many doctors speculate its a problem with autonomic control of vasomotor tone. So again we’re back at a problem with CNS functioning. 

Hypertensive at 18 definately requires investigation for secondary causes however, which I hope you’ve had.

I havn’t read studies about Isotretinoin and 5-AR, but that certainly sounds a plausible theory for how it could lead to Depression (i.e. through down regulation of 5-AR within the brain, leading to decreased DHT synthesis within the brain). I also accept your point that reduced DHT synthesis within the brain could directly reduce libido independently of it causing depression. I respect this as a decent theory. We’ll see if it leads anywhere over the next 10 years.
 

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10 hours ago, marshl1 said:

I'm surprised that you didn't look into the vitamin A deplete diet more. It doesn't involve medication and there are two entire ebooks freely available explaining the theory.
There's a writer called Matt Stone who's really interested in the chronic vitamin A poisoning theory. Apparently he has quite a large following and he's going to be working to publicize the research presented in those ebooks. He's working with a nutritionist to devise a low vitamin A diet.
I've been doing it for about a month now. It's not that much time but I certainly feel better.
I don't understand why anyone suffering side affects from accutane wouldn't want to know more about this and actually want to give it a go and see what happens. 

Thanks    
 

I’m surprised that more people aren’t following the “8 tips to help Accutane side effects”
video that suggests the opposite- that you need to supplement liquid Vit A once you’ve gotten on top of the bile flow issues etc.

Who’s right in all of this? You, me, someone else??

You could spend years trying the anti Vit A path and get nothing out of it. You could spend years doing the 8 tips route and get no effect...

Ive got no idea....stem cell therapy perhaps? Edited by TrueJustice

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Dont waste your time.

Let me give some examples of a follow up from my last post.

BACTERIAL INHERITANCE LEADS RESEARCHERS TO RETHINK HEREDITY

BY DOUGLAS MAIN ON 2/19/15 AT 9:14 AM
http://www.newsweek.com/bacterial-inheritance-leads-researchers-rethink-heredity-307855

Now im jumping around here a bit, going back and forth. Im aware of this.
You see these gene mutations?
This might tell you what bacteria you may be lacking.
ive seen this in my own mutations.

VKORC1 rs2359612 and rs9923231 polymorphisms correlate with high risks of cardiovascular and cerebrovascular diseases
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2015/vol14-4/pdf/gmr6188.pdf

now lets dig a little further from what was just mentioned

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2305050016301257

Effect of black soybean natto extract (Glycine soja) on reproduction system of hypercholesterolemia male mice
Black soybean natto extract influenced on reproduction system of male hypercholesterolemic mice by increasing the testosterone level and increasing the density and motility of sperm.
This is also a vitamin k producing bacteria.

There's also bacteria that produce carotenoidsin the gut, right at the site of absorption.
same for b12, biotin, folic acid, digestive enzymes.
Microbes are also responsible for multiple metabolisms.
Things like glucose, heavy metals, cholesterol.
Bacteria can Also degrade a form of estrogen that is a powerful endocrine disruptor. 
example.

Isolation and characteristics of 17beta-estradiol-degrading Bacillus spp. strains from activated sludge.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20135340

Did you know they discovered a fungus that eats plastic? 

Something that is unexplored to me is individual probiotic strains.
even strains from the same genus can compete with each other.

Did you know the p.acnes bacteria might get its origins from the soil?

"Propionibacteria are commonly found in milk and dairy products, though they have also been extracted from soil."

There is a probiotic that happens to not fall too far from the acne tree.
 Propionibacterium freudenreichii.

So your looking at what gets knocked down, like p. acnes. and what went along with it.
your looking at knocking down bacteria along with fungus from isotretinoin. 
But then what came back?
After or during treatment.

Id be curious about looking at ubiome in some of us.
If and when I get these test results, I will be sure to share.

maybe in the future a bacterial or even fungal deficiency as it relates to human microbials will be so much more important than any vitamin deficiency as you can see just one strain can do so much more than a single nutrient. 

So this is what I will be exploring for the near future.

 
Edited by guitarman01

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Guitarman,

Outside of your research, what are you taking these days?

What supplements etc?

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On 6/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, marshl1 said:

Im pretty sure he's talking about vitreous floaters and I have them post accutane too along with photophobia and dry eyes. 

@marshl1Did you have dry eye and photophobia during the intake or after it? If it is the latter, how much later did you notice the symptoms?

How is your photophobia? Just the sunlight or you have problems with computer screens and TVs?
 

On 6/23/2018 at 8:10 PM, TrueJustice said:

Yep - that’s me too, esp The photosensitivity!!


@TrueJustice 

How is your photophobia? Just the sunlight or you have problems with computer screens and TVs?

Do you also have dry eyes? Other eye physical symptoms?

@marshl1 and @TrueJustice 

I found out that I have eye floaters when I began feeling the photophobia and the dry eye symptoms, just because I was more conscious about my eyes. And I noticed them when I saw a white surface. That is the only way I can see them, they never bother me. I think eye floaters are very common, I couldn’t say they were caused by Accutane, probably not.

How do you know yours were caused by Accutane? Are they obvious and you didn’t see them before Accutane? 

On 6/21/2018 at 4:13 PM, Benjamin94 said:

Treatment: Isotretinoin 60mg OD on week 10. 


@Benjamin94 Are you taking Accutane NOW?

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On 6/24/2018 at 8:59 AM, HideAndSeek said:

So my question is: does anyone know if over the counter Retinol (not Tretinoin) goes in your bloodstream or there are any risks of side effects? I don’t want to do any further damage. 


@HideAndSeekAfter Accutane I noticed that my eyes were gradually drier, and I was not able to use contact lenses any more. But I began my serious dry eye and photophobia when I was using isotretinoin in gel. I used it for like 6 weeks, because of a breakout, probably induced by some supplements and a drug. After that I quitted the gel and all I was taking. I never used an acne gel again, because I don’t need it, “thanks” to Accutane.

I don’t know if isotretinoin in gel had something to do with my sudden eye worsening. Maybe it was a combination of things.

I don’t know if the gel goes to the blood, probably not, but I personally wouldn’t like to be close to this drug again.

Be careful with your eyes. Do you have a lot of acne? Don’t use anything, just don’t touch your face and don’t focus your attention on your acne. I guess you tried benzoyl peroxide…?

Edited by Ákos

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Akos 

I didn’t have floaters before Accutane- got them on tane or just after.

Just sensitivity to sunlight really, I can deal with lights inside etc.

Yes I get dry eyes, my sight is ok and has recently been tested - all good. I don’t take anything for dry eyes though, dryness for me isn’t a major problem. Skin dryness- that’s a whole other story....

I’m open to correcting floaters should anyone know how to do that??

GP once said to me, it’s just an age thing, I was like 26 at the time - no fucking idea about any connection to Accutane yet look how many victims state that they have this issue post treatment. The fucking clueless medical world....just fucking useless!!!!

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2 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

 The fucking clueless medical world....just fucking useless!!!!


But modern medicine did get rid of your acne. Accutane does work. 

Again I would advise going onto a non-acne forum and reading the stories of all the other 20 year olds with health problems who never took accutane. I’m afraid everything does go down hill from 18.

From now until the day you die, you are going to develop more and more health problems. I’m just wondering are you going to blame them all on Accutane?

I agree its possible that your problems are due to the drug, but I hope you can open your mind to the possibility that they’re not and that you would have got them anyway even if you hadn’t taken the drug.

I would also point out that these theories on the internet havn’t helped you either - so they’re just as “fucking clueless”.

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You know when you’ve been accutained, it’s completely different to regular aging issues, not even questionable.

You’re right it does work in terms of clearing up acne. I just didn’t sign up to all this other shit. I also technically didn’t have to go on this drug, at the end of the day it was my ill informed choice back in 1998 so I have to take responsibility for my part in all this.

The theories on internet are from people trying to work this shit out, I’ll never point the finger at a victim trying to resolve a problem, at the very least they are talking about health issues related to a dangerous drug, hopefully that in of itself is enough to deter someone going on it - that’s a positive contribution in my book!!

Edited by TrueJustice

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10 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

You know when you’ve been accutained, it’s completely different to regular aging issues, not even questionable.


I’m sorry but thats not a rigorous argument. 

Do you know how common Depression is in the early 20s. At my Uni, I was once told by a tutor that 1 in 4 of his students were on antidepressants.

Likewise google “Delayed Wound Healing” - see how many people complain about this on internet forums.

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Well at the end of the day we can debate things all we want, it’s not what I’m looking to do.

Just show me how to get out of depression, show those uni students how to get out of their depression without medication!!

I just want results, I don’t have the energy to debate the causes, Accutane can bring on depression, fine - what do you do to fix it??

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10 hours ago, Ákos said:

@marshl1Did you have dry eye and photophobia during the intake or after it? If it is the latter, how much later did you notice the symptoms?

How is your photophobia? Just the sunlight or you have problems with computer screens and TVs?
 


@TrueJustice 

How is your photophobia? Just the sunlight or you have problems with computer screens and TVs?

Do you also have dry eyes? Other eye physical symptoms?

@marshl1 and @TrueJustice 

I found out that I have eye floaters when I began feeling the photophobia and the dry eye symptoms, just because I was more conscious about my eyes. And I noticed them when I saw a white surface. That is the only way I can see them, they never bother me. I think eye floaters are very common, I couldn’t say they were caused by Accutane, probably not.

How do you know yours were caused by Accutane? Are they obvious and you didn’t see them before Accutane? 


@Benjamin94 Are you taking Accutane NOW?


My vitreous floaters appeared after I took accutane for a second time. I only ever took low dose.
I also had LASIK and for a long time I put my eye symptoms down to that. Now i'm pretty sure it was accutane.

Both eyes are filled with floaters, I know they won't get better but i've looked into the possibility of a Floaters Only Vitrectomy in the US to have them removed. The photophobia occurs mainly when looking at tv or computer screens. The floaters are more bothersome outside. My eyes have been extremely dry and i've suffered headaches and sinus issues for the last 4 years.

That said im doing a lot better lately. The floaters aren't going anywhere but they are bothering me less.

Lee

 

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@DevolutionI’m sorry that I’ve upset you. It wasn’t my intention. The problem with the internet is that it can only communicate words, rather than delivery and manner. 

I am not a massive fan of psychotropic drugs and I acknowledge that sexual dysfunction is a classic side effect of SSRIs and is particularly upsetting for men. Sertraline is the softest of them as well, so its a shame that it effected you so badly. 

People dont talk about mental health. Its a taboo subject. But Depression is so common. 25% of GP appointments are people going about mental health or psychosomatic problems. People hide it and hide it well, but it is real and we’re not great at treating it.

I have Depression also and I have Chronic Functional Diarrhoea (a Functional GI Disorder - Functional is another word for psychosomatic). My GI issues get worse every time my mental health gets worse. I had these long before I started taking accutane, but my Depression has exacerbated whilst on Accutane. I have never taken SSRIs and I hope that it never gets bad enough that I need to. I personally would only take them if i was depressed to the extent that I was suicidal. Something that I find very helpful for Depression is going to saunas, spa pools, steams rooms, swimming, etc. These are usually quite cheap as well. I would really advise you try them. 

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