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37 minutes ago, Ákos said:


Jason3,

Hi. Only your testosterone was low? And your DHEA? LH and FSH?

I only have low (out of normal range) DHEA. My testosterone is normal but maybe a bit low, though I can’t know what were my level before Accutane. Do you know something about taking DHEA? What I know is that it is considered without side effects (but I also read that it could produce acne/increase sebum, like happened to you, which would make sense in relation to Accutane as “inhibitor”)

Low libido, fatigue, “brain fog” are symptoms of depression, more than they are symptoms of low testosterone. Were you depressed?

 

How are you feeling better?

You don’t feel ostopenia.

And brain fog and depression are psychological, I doubt they are a consequence of Accutane, six years later.


My LH and FSH were well into normal ranges indicating primary hypogonadism.

DHEA is a precursor to your sex hormones. It is needed in fact for your body to make them. Supplementing DHEA works for some but not others. For me, it eliminates any anxiety I have, but some report a very strong libido with supplementation. Others report worsening anxiety and libido with supplementation. DHEA is also estrogenic in men which means that it will typically cause an increase in estrogens (Estradiol) more so than an increase in testosterone. In women it works in the opposite way - more testosterone than estrogen is created by supplementing DHEA. DHEA naturally declines with age after about age 25. I have attached a (simplistic) diagram showing how these hormones are created in the body.

My DHEA was 211 whereas 450-600 is usually optimal depending on the individual. I take 25mg twice a day and that puts me around 550. I would only take it if your lab results indicate you are low or at the bottom of the normal range and I would also start low around 12.5-25mg daily to see if it does anything for you. It is available over the counter and I just buy it from Amazon. Jarrow makes high quality supplements. 

As far as symptoms I have to disagree. Low libido, fatigue, "brain fog" and even depression are all telltale signs of someone with low testosterone. They are also telltale signs of many other problems as well however. I don't think that those symptoms are caused by Accutane itself years after its discontinuation. The half life of isotretinoin is pretty short and that would be impossible. But I do absolutely think that they are symptoms of downstream problems that Accutane causes in some who have taken it.

I do not have depression. Physically my body has changed and improved a lot from all of the testosterone that I take. But I do take a lot and I have to take it every day whereas many TRT patients get by on a single weekly injection. I'm saying you would have no idea that I take a high dose by looking at me. It has very little anabolic effect on my body. Something seems to interfere with that process. In my previous posts I mentioned how my DHT also seems to have a low "set point" no matter how much testosterone I take. I have to force it to go higher and that's when I feel truly great.


 

steroidogenesis.jpg

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On 5/26/2018 at 10:04 AM, flynn said:

Hi Dubya,

Yes I was planning on doing this at some point and putting some money into search engine optimisation etc. for the website. But I have no experience doing these things and not much free time at the moment. I also don't work and don't intend to monetise the website. My main focus has been adding content and compiling info. I have also shared links to it on a few of the facebook accutane forums. My hope would be building a fairly large user base. Upon which we could gather extensive case histories and potentially be mobilised to fund raise to some sort of research/treatment. 

If you could provide any advice it would be hugely appreciated. 

If you have the time. I would also highly value your feedback on the info I put together on the 5 alpha reductase theory of PAS. As it was after reading one of your posts, that really got me interested in researching it more thoroughly. Obviously criticism is more than welcome -  https://pasforum.info/threads/theory-pas-and-pfs-5-alpha-reductase-enzyme-very-plausible-currently-seems-to-be-the-most-likely-cause-of-pas.9/

I've also posted about a potential method of treating PAS and PFS, provided they are indeed caused by changes in 5AR expression, that you might be interested in - https://www.pasforum.info/threads/plausible-cure-crispr-cas9-gene-editing.21/

@flynn  https://www.pasforum.info/    has been added to Google's index and their webcrawler should make most of the site searchable now. This will probably take effect sometime tomorrow.

If any way possible, switching from a .info top level domain to a .org or .com would be beneficial. If only because it appears shady to many people and might not make it past some spam, or attack site, filters. ...It might be a bit late for that though. I'll sign-up to the forum some day soon and check it out more. Well done all in all.


5-ar theory does seem very likely. You seem to have a good grasp on it and explain it well. I do believe though, that this results from AR over-expression via negative feedback of amplified signal negatively regulating 5-ar type I. There is also a great possibility of androgens acting as an inverse agonist because of this over-expression, leading to muscle wastage and tissue changes contrary to the normal effect of androgens. This "opposite effect"  also happens with high doses of some drugs. ...Just my 2 cents. Absolutely no doubt, Accutane is a 5-ar inhibitor, and reduced 5-ar type I activity in certain brain regions is associated with depression. We might have even found a short-cut to causing depression by taking Accutane.

You might find some of the CRISPR systems described in this study interesting:
https://www.nature.com/articles/cr201776

The homology-mediated end-joining method produced decent results in-vivo. They tested on neuronal cells too.


One last thing: My FSH has been below-range low in around 6 out of 8 times I have had it tested, while LH and T have been fairly normal. I remember reading that FSH and LH are supposed to have tight correlation and be roughly equal, with some spikes in LH throughout a typical day. ...My FSH/LH ratio is usually around 1/3.


  Edited by Dubya_B

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On 6/10/2018 at 10:57 PM, Jason3 said:

In my previous posts I mentioned how my DHT also seems to have a low "set point" no matter how much testosterone I take. I have to force it to go higher and that's when I feel truly great.


Jason3,
 

Thank you for the response.

I don’t know this DHT, I think my blood tests never looked for its level. And… how do you force it to go higher?

I attach some values of my tests. It seems that the labs use different units, so you have to see the units. And between brackets there is the normal range, according to the labs. Lab 2, apparently, measures Free T very different from Lab 1.

5b2065e9d99f7_bloodtests.thumb.JPG.8157500928001c0baa483fb37c03c176.JPG

 

According to your knowledge, do you think my testosterone is low? Yes, my total T is normal, and it has increased since my first test. But Free T and Bio T are somehow low…?

Well, you are not depressed now, but before taking testosterone, when you realized you had low libido?

According to my experience, depression doesn’t cause low libido by itself, you just feel very bad and you don’t want to do anything. If it is intense, it could lower libido or not, depending on the worries of the particular person. In most cases it is a subjective and psychological pathology, not reducible to any physical pathology.

Of course, I suppose low testosterone by itself reduces libido. And also there are a lot of cases that would proof that Accutane can reduce the activity of certain glands, even after its discontinuation.
 

Edited by Ákos

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On 6/10/2018 at 5:58 AM, kjkjkj2 said:

The website explains that Accutane is vitamin A, which is a fat soluble and stored in the liver.

Can you please provide a source that retinoic acid specifically can be stored in the liver for long periods of time? Accutane is a metabolite of Retinol (vitamin A) known as 13-cis-retinoic acid. The body cannot convert retinoic acid back to retinal or retinol. The half-lives of retinoic acid and their associated metabolites are under 30 hours (Wiegland, 1998).

I read the ebook and wrote my all my disagreements to the author. All due respect, I believe the book is nonesense. I will provide several reasons here, aside from the possible glaring pharmacological error in assuming Accutane stays in the body for years. :D  The author's main premise is that vitamin A is a blanket toxin that is at the root of almost all auto-immune disease. If that is true, he must explain the following:

1. Why do people with IBD show low vitamin A levels? Even if it is the disease causing the deficiency, shouldn't this be advantageous for symptoms? How come people with Chrohn's can be completely emaciated and still show symptoms?

2. If vitamin A is simply a toxin, why does it show efficacy for treating a lung disease?

3. Why is Accutane-induced night blindness helped by vitamin A supplementation? (Well, I can speculate why. Accutane actually interferes with some aspects of vitamin A metabolism due to the large doses of one particular metabolite being supplemented at the expense of everything else.)

4. Why is Accutane induced depression helped by vitamin A supplementation? Danby FW. Oral isotretinoin, neuropathy and hypovitaminosis A. Clin Exp Dermatol. 2008;33(2):190. (Again, I can speculate an answer. Of note, I see these types of anecdotes on my Accutane group too.)

5. The author argues that autoimmune diseases look a lot like hypervitaminosis A and that this is evidence it is the vitamin A is directly causing symptoms. The author must explain how drugs like prednisone, Humira, and topical creams help calm symptoms. Where does this vitamin A go during this symptom relief? Is it literally neutralized?

6. One of the arguments put forth is that liver growth with age helps fend off sub-clinical hypervitaminosis as we age. He uses this idea to explain why kids get Autism and eczema and elderly people get Alzheimer's. Specifically, he focuses on the fact that eczema is common in the very young (small livers) and then again in those age 50+ (those with stagnated livers). This is a bizarre point to me. What about autoimmune illnesses that are commonly developed in those who are in their 20s-30s? IBD? M.S.? How do you explain that?  Also, why do so many people never "outgrow" Autism? Perhaps the age of onset of these autoimmune illnesses have nothing to do with aging/expanding livers. . . . More broadly speaking, how is this theory remotely compatible with autoimmune illnesses that are intermittent/relapsing in nature? Also, through what mechanism would vitamin A (the one main cause of autoimmune illness) cause different autoimmune conditions at different ages? The real answer is that these conditions are much more complicated than the author lets on.

7. If vitamin A is at the root of autoimmune illness, how does this fit into the idea that microbial transplants can both cure and induce a number of autoimmune diseases in mice? Does bacteria make the liver grow or something?

8. He also misunderstands evolution by asking why the immune system behaves in such haywire ways during autoimmune illness if there is no physical reason to (e.g., active presence of vitamin A poisoning). Evolution does not lead to perfect organisms. It is more accurate to say natural selection weeds out traits that are detrimental to one's survival than it is to say natural selection selects for advantageous traits. This is not just semantics. Let me use a convoluted analogy. Let's pretend that when Tigers (for all intents and purposes) were "evolving," some evolved to have 30 pound tails and some evolved to have normal tails. Of course, the tigers with 30 pound tails would die off because it would hinder their ability to stalk prey. Now, if the surviving Tigers had some unnecessary trait such as wisdom teeth or an under-developed fifth leg that hardly hindered their ability to run, evolution has no mechanism to phase out these traits. And it wouldn't have a reason to. Why? Because these Tigers are still reproducing. Perhaps not all of them. Perhaps some of them incur infections from their "wisdom teeth" or are slightly impeded by their under developed limb. But if MOST Tigers are still able to reproduce with these traits, that's good enough for evolution. Some traits are "annoying" to an organism, but do not significantly hinder reproduction, so they stick around. Evolution doesn't care very much about quality of life.

9. The author is feeling better on an extremely limited diet. Yes, it is devoid of vitamin A. But the fact it excludes a number of commonly "triggering" foods should not be discounted as well. He noted reacting poorly to strawberries, which are actually a fairly common trigger food. There is something to be said about diet and autoimmune disease being linked. But I do not think normal levels of vitamin A have anything to do with it.

And there were a couple of other things I took issue with, but that sums it up. I believe Accutane is an extremely dangerous drug simply for the fact it is an overdose of a  metabolite of vitamin A, which many of us consumed daily for months at a time. I believe it causes immune system disturbance. I believe it possibly disrupts the retinoid pathway. I believe it causes global apoptotic effects. I believe it induces gene changes. I do not believe Accutane is actively in our bodies in excess amount,  thereby causing some sort of prolonged, acute response to said Accutane directly. In fact, evidence seems to show that avoiding vitamin A probably has more risks than benefits.
  Edited by ACCUiTy_drANE

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I’m going to investigate the “top 8 tips for reversing Accutane side effects” as shown on YouTube.

1. Bile Acids
2.Tudca
3. Green leafy vegetables 
4. MSM
5. Coconut Oil
6. Calcium D Glucarate 
7. Liquid Vit A ( taken only once you’ve laid off it doing the other procedures first )
8. Vit C

If I give this a go and still don’t feel any better I will look at Testosterone treatment of some sort.

 

Edited by TrueJustice

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5 hours ago, ACCUiTy_drANE said:
Can you please provide a source that retinoic acid specifically can be stored in the liver for long periods of time? Accutane is a metabolite of Retinol (vitamin A) known as 13-cis-retinoic acid. The body cannot convert retinoic acid back to retinal or retinol. The half-lives of retinoic acid and their associated metabolites are under 30 hours (Wiegland, 1998).

I read the ebook and wrote my all my disagreements to the author. All due respect, I believe the book is nonesense. I will provide several reasons here, aside from the possible glaring pharmacological error in assuming Accutane stays in the body for years. :D  The author's main premise is that vitamin A is a blanket toxin that is at the root of almost all auto-immune disease. If that is true, he must explain the following:

1. Why do people with IBD show low vitamin A levels? Even if it is the disease causing the deficiency, shouldn't this be advantageous for symptoms? How come people with Chrohn's can be completely emaciated and still show symptoms?

2. If vitamin A is simply a toxin, why does it show efficacy for treating a lung disease?

3. Why is Accutane-induced night blindness helped by vitamin A supplementation? (Well, I can speculate why. Accutane actually interferes with some aspects of vitamin A metabolism due to the large doses of one particular metabolite being supplemented at the expense of everything else.)

4. Why is Accutane induced depression helped by vitamin A supplementation? Danby FW. Oral isotretinoin, neuropathy and hypovitaminosis A. Clin Exp Dermatol. 2008;33(2):190. (Again, I can speculate an answer. Of note, I see these types of anecdotes on my Accutane group too.)

5. The author argues that autoimmune diseases look a lot like hypervitaminosis A and that this is evidence it is the vitamin A is directly causing symptoms. The author must explain how drugs like prednisone, Humira, and topical creams help calm symptoms. Where does this vitamin A go during this symptom relief? Is it literally neutralized?

6. One of the arguments put forth is that liver growth with age helps fend off sub-clinical hypervitaminosis as we age. He uses this idea to explain why kids get Autism and eczema and elderly people get Alzheimer's. Specifically, he focuses on the fact that eczema is common in the very young (small livers) and then again in those age 50+ (those with stagnated livers). This is a bizarre point to me. What about autoimmune illnesses that are commonly developed in those who are in their 20s-30s? IBD? M.S.? How do you explain that?  Also, why do so many people never "outgrow" Autism? Perhaps the age of onset of these autoimmune illnesses have nothing to do with aging/expanding livers. . . . More broadly speaking, how is this theory remotely compatible with autoimmune illnesses that are intermittent/relapsing in nature? Also, through what mechanism would vitamin A (the one main cause of autoimmune illness) cause different autoimmune conditions at different ages? The real answer is that these conditions are much more complicated than the author lets on.

7. If vitamin A is at the root of autoimmune illness, how does this fit into the idea that microbial transplants can both cure and induce a number of autoimmune diseases in mice? Does bacteria make the liver grow or something?

8. He also misunderstands evolution by asking why the immune system behaves in such haywire ways during autoimmune illness if there is no physical reason to (e.g., active presence of vitamin A poisoning). Evolution does not lead to perfect organisms. It is more accurate to say natural selection weeds out traits that are detrimental to one's survival than it is to say natural selection selects for advantageous traits. This is not just semantics. Let me use a convoluted analogy. Let's pretend that when Tigers (for all intents and purposes) were "evolving," some evolved to have 30 pound tails and some evolved to have normal tails. Of course, the tigers with 30 pound tails would die off because it would hinder their ability to stalk prey. Now, if the surviving Tigers had some unnecessary trait such as wisdom teeth or an under-developed fifth leg that hardly hindered their ability to run, evolution has no mechanism to phase out these traits. And it wouldn't have a reason to. Why? Because these Tigers are still reproducing. Perhaps not all of them. Perhaps some of them incur infections from their "wisdom teeth" or are slightly impeded by their under developed limb. But if MOST Tigers are still able to reproduce with these traits, that's good enough for evolution. Some traits are "annoying" to an organism, but do not significantly hinder reproduction, so they stick around. Evolution doesn't care very much about quality of life.

9. The author is feeling better on an extremely limited diet. Yes, it is devoid of vitamin A. But the fact it excludes a number of commonly "triggering" foods should not be discounted as well. He noted reacting poorly to strawberries, which are actually a fairly common trigger food. There is something to be said about diet and autoimmune disease being linked. But I do not think normal levels of vitamin A have anything to do with it.

And there were a couple of other things I took issue with, but that sums it up. I believe Accutane is an extremely dangerous drug simply for the fact it is an overdose of a  metabolite of vitamin A, which many of us consumed daily for months at a time. I believe it causes immune system disturbance. I believe it possibly disrupts the retinoid pathway. I believe it causes global apoptotic effects. I believe it induces gene changes. I do not believe Accutane is actively in our bodies in excess amount,  thereby causing some sort of prolonged, acute response to said Accutane directly. In fact, evidence seems to show that avoiding vitamin A probably has more risks than benefits.
 
Thanks for this it's extremely helpful. I liked the idea presented in the ebook, it seemed to make a lot of sense to me for a number of reasons. One being when I consume high vitamin A foods such as eggs and dairy and seem to get an obvious relapse in my symptoms. I feel like i've been poisoned again. 
Im trying a low vitamin A diet, i've tried so many different things I figured it's worth a try.

You say you sent these questions to the author. Could you let us know if you get a reply? I'd be fascinated to know what he thinks about the great points that you make.

Thanks again,
Lee
 

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8 minutes ago, marshl1 said:
Thanks for this it's extremely helpful. I liked the idea presented in the ebook, it seemed to make a lot of sense to me for a number of reasons. One being when I consume high vitamin A foods such as eggs and dairy and seem to get an obvious relapse in my symptoms. I feel like i've been poisoned again. 
Im trying a low vitamin A diet, i've tried so many different things I figured it's worth a try.

You say you sent these questions to the author. Could you let us know if you get a reply? I'd be fascinated to know what he thinks about the great points that you make.

Thanks again,
Lee
 

Have you gotten rid of excess isotretinoin though??

you’re probably like me where you haven’t and until you do you’ll feel like crap consuming Vit A foods - this is all mentioned in the “8 tips to help reverse Accutane side effects” found on YouTube 

You have to get rid of Accutane first and slowly introduce Vit A in liquid form - gotta get that bile flow moving again they say!!

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1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Have you gotten rid of excess isotretinoin though??

you’re probably like me where you haven’t and until you do you’ll feel like crap consuming Vit A foods - this is all mentioned in the “8 tips to help reverse Accutane side effects” found on YouTube 

You have to get rid of Accutane first and slowly introduce Vit A in liquid form - gotta get that bile flow moving again they say!!
 
1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Have you gotten rid of excess isotretinoin though??

you’re probably like me where you haven’t and until you do you’ll feel like crap consuming Vit A foods - this is all mentioned in the “8 tips to help reverse Accutane side effects” found on YouTube 

You have to get rid of Accutane first and slowly introduce Vit A in liquid form - gotta get that bile flow moving again they say!!

Well the guy above makes a very compelling argument that Isotretinoin or Retinoic Acid can not be stored in the liver for long periods of time. At least there is no evidence of this. I haven't taken Accutane for 5 years so it wouldn't be stored would it. The ebook treats Accutane as just another form of Vitmain A (a very high dose obviously) which is likely to take you past this threshold level which is pretty much the central theory of the ebook from what I understand. If you continue to consume Vitamin A then you're body is not able to deplete these toxic levels and you continue to get symptoms. 
I don't know what to think anymore, I liked the ebook but the guy above makes some great points against the theory presented in the ebook. Hopefully he'll get some response from the author about his criticism

Im trying this low vitamin A thing anyway, see what happens.

By the way I tried that youtube protocol a while back, it didn't do much for me personally.

Thanks

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7 hours ago, ACCUiTy_drANE said:


4. Why is Accutane induced depression helped by vitamin A supplementation? Danby FW. Oral isotretinoin, neuropathy and hypovitaminosis A. Clin Exp Dermatol. 2008;33(2):190. (Again, I can speculate an answer. Of note, I see these types of anecdotes on my Accutane group too.)

 


Hi Drane,  
Do you by any chance have the excerpt from this article that states the depression can be helped by vit A supps, or any other articles stating this?  Thanks!  

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1 hour ago, marshl1 said:
 
Well the guy above makes a very compelling argument that Isotretinoin or Retinoic Acid can not be stored in the liver for long periods of time. At least there is no evidence of this. I haven't taken Accutane for 5 years so it wouldn't be stored would it. The ebook treats Accutane as just another form of Vitmain A (a very high dose obviously) which is likely to take you past this threshold level which is pretty much the central theory of the ebook from what I understand. If you continue to consume Vitamin A then you're body is not able to deplete these toxic levels and you continue to get symptoms. 
I don't know what to think anymore, I liked the ebook but the guy above makes some great points against the theory presented in the ebook. Hopefully he'll get some response from the author about his criticism

Im trying this low vitamin A thing anyway, see what happens.

By the way I tried that youtube protocol a while back, it didn't do much for me personally.

Thanks

How did they come to know of those 8 tips if it isn’t true?

It must of worked on someone and be true if there’s been success involved - unless they’re bullshiting?

What reason would they have to be bullshiting us? Edited by TrueJustice

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48 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

How did they come to know of those 8 tips if it isn’t true?

It must of worked on someone and be true if there’s been success involved - unless they’re bullshiting?

What reason would they have to be bullshiting us?


I don't know mate, I got all the supplements recommended and tried them about a year ago. I'm sure they think they are right but lots of people think they have the answer to post accutane side effects.

The only way to know for sure if it will help you is to give it a good go. That's what im doing with this low vitamin A although im feeling less confident about it now

Thanks

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10 hours ago, marshl1 said:


I don't know mate, I got all the supplements recommended and tried them about a year ago. I'm sure they think they are right but lots of people think they have the answer to post accutane side effects.

The only way to know for sure if it will help you is to give it a good go. That's what im doing with this low vitamin A although im feeling less confident about it now

Thanks

I’ve tried most of them too mate, although in an ad hoc fashion, I’m going to give it another go with a bit more of a protocol in mind.

As I said, failing that I’m going to look at testosterone, Jason3 has had good results from this, he doesn’t discount that Vit A hasn’t caused some issues but like he says, we don’t know and nor do doctors- we really do just have to experiment unfortunately.

I will say though, I’d hate to go on testosterone treatment when all I had to do was detox Accutane and start building up my natural Vit A again - that would be crazy.

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23 hours ago, ACCUiTy_drANE said:

7. If vitamin A is at the root of autoimmune illness, how does this fit into the idea that microbial transplants can both cure and induce a number of autoimmune diseases in mice? Does bacteria make the liver grow or something?

Not sure how often you frequent the forum, but yes, maybe. 
Except i'm not looking at bacteria atm, but what it evolved to.
Maybe it was never bacteria.

"the diversity of the microbiota on the cheek and the back was significantly increased after acne treatments"

Eukaryotes

Eukaryotes represent a tiny minority of all living things.[8] However, due to their generally much larger size, their collective worldwide biomass is estimated to be about equal to that of prokaryotes.[

Pathogenic shifts in endogenous microbiota impede tissue ... - eLife

The interrelationship between endogenous microbiota, the immune system, and tissue regenerationis an area of intense research due to its potential therapeutic applications. ... The culture of these bacteria yielded a strain of Pseudomonas capable of inducing progressive tissue degeneration.

Shifts in the microbiome impact tissue repair, regeneration ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160826151746.htm
Aug 26, 2016 - Shifts in the microbiome impact tissue repair, regeneration. Summary: A definitive link between the makeup of the microbiome, the host immune response, and an organism's ability to heal itself has been confirmed by scientists.

Role of the Microbiota in Immunity and inflammation - NCBI - NIH

by Y Belkaid - ‎2014 - ‎Cited by 771 - ‎Related articles
The mechanism by which neonate tissues adapt to the formidable challenge of ..... the gut, TLR activation by commensals was required to promote tissue repair ...
Edited by guitarman01

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On 13/06/2018 at 3:01 AM, ACCUiTy_drANE said:
Can you please provide a source that retinoic acid specifically can be stored in the liver for long periods of time? Accutane is a metabolite of Retinol (vitamin A) known as 13-cis-retinoic acid. The body cannot convert retinoic acid back to retinal or retinol. The half-lives of retinoic acid and their associated metabolites are under 30 hours (Wiegland, 1998).

I read the ebook and wrote my all my disagreements to the author. All due respect, I believe the book is nonesense. I will provide several reasons here, aside from the possible glaring pharmacological error in assuming Accutane stays in the body for years. :D  The author's main premise is that vitamin A is a blanket toxin that is at the root of almost all auto-immune disease. If that is true, he must explain the following:

1. Why do people with IBD show low vitamin A levels? Even if it is the disease causing the deficiency, shouldn't this be advantageous for symptoms? How come people with Chrohn's can be completely emaciated and still show symptoms?

2. If vitamin A is simply a toxin, why does it show efficacy for treating a lung disease?

3. Why is Accutane-induced night blindness helped by vitamin A supplementation? (Well, I can speculate why. Accutane actually interferes with some aspects of vitamin A metabolism due to the large doses of one particular metabolite being supplemented at the expense of everything else.)

4. Why is Accutane induced depression helped by vitamin A supplementation? Danby FW. Oral isotretinoin, neuropathy and hypovitaminosis A. Clin Exp Dermatol. 2008;33(2):190. (Again, I can speculate an answer. Of note, I see these types of anecdotes on my Accutane group too.)

5. The author argues that autoimmune diseases look a lot like hypervitaminosis A and that this is evidence it is the vitamin A is directly causing symptoms. The author must explain how drugs like prednisone, Humira, and topical creams help calm symptoms. Where does this vitamin A go during this symptom relief? Is it literally neutralized?

6. One of the arguments put forth is that liver growth with age helps fend off sub-clinical hypervitaminosis as we age. He uses this idea to explain why kids get Autism and eczema and elderly people get Alzheimer's. Specifically, he focuses on the fact that eczema is common in the very young (small livers) and then again in those age 50+ (those with stagnated livers). This is a bizarre point to me. What about autoimmune illnesses that are commonly developed in those who are in their 20s-30s? IBD? M.S.? How do you explain that?  Also, why do so many people never "outgrow" Autism? Perhaps the age of onset of these autoimmune illnesses have nothing to do with aging/expanding livers. . . . More broadly speaking, how is this theory remotely compatible with autoimmune illnesses that are intermittent/relapsing in nature? Also, through what mechanism would vitamin A (the one main cause of autoimmune illness) cause different autoimmune conditions at different ages? The real answer is that these conditions are much more complicated than the author lets on.

7. If vitamin A is at the root of autoimmune illness, how does this fit into the idea that microbial transplants can both cure and induce a number of autoimmune diseases in mice? Does bacteria make the liver grow or something?

8. He also misunderstands evolution by asking why the immune system behaves in such haywire ways during autoimmune illness if there is no physical reason to (e.g., active presence of vitamin A poisoning). Evolution does not lead to perfect organisms. It is more accurate to say natural selection weeds out traits that are detrimental to one's survival than it is to say natural selection selects for advantageous traits. This is not just semantics. Let me use a convoluted analogy. Let's pretend that when Tigers (for all intents and purposes) were "evolving," some evolved to have 30 pound tails and some evolved to have normal tails. Of course, the tigers with 30 pound tails would die off because it would hinder their ability to stalk prey. Now, if the surviving Tigers had some unnecessary trait such as wisdom teeth or an under-developed fifth leg that hardly hindered their ability to run, evolution has no mechanism to phase out these traits. And it wouldn't have a reason to. Why? Because these Tigers are still reproducing. Perhaps not all of them. Perhaps some of them incur infections from their "wisdom teeth" or are slightly impeded by their under developed limb. But if MOST Tigers are still able to reproduce with these traits, that's good enough for evolution. Some traits are "annoying" to an organism, but do not significantly hinder reproduction, so they stick around. Evolution doesn't care very much about quality of life.

9. The author is feeling better on an extremely limited diet. Yes, it is devoid of vitamin A. But the fact it excludes a number of commonly "triggering" foods should not be discounted as well. He noted reacting poorly to strawberries, which are actually a fairly common trigger food. There is something to be said about diet and autoimmune disease being linked. But I do not think normal levels of vitamin A have anything to do with it.

And there were a couple of other things I took issue with, but that sums it up. I believe Accutane is an extremely dangerous drug simply for the fact it is an overdose of a  metabolite of vitamin A, which many of us consumed daily for months at a time. I believe it causes immune system disturbance. I believe it possibly disrupts the retinoid pathway. I believe it causes global apoptotic effects. I believe it induces gene changes. I do not believe Accutane is actively in our bodies in excess amount,  thereby causing some sort of prolonged, acute response to said Accutane directly. In fact, evidence seems to show that avoiding vitamin A probably has more risks than benefits.
 

I sent this on to the author of the ebook and here is what he had to say if you're interested.
 

"Can you please provide a source that retinoic acid specifically can be stored in the liver for long periods of time? Accutane is a metabolite of Retinol (vitamin A) known as 13-cis-retinoic acid. The body cannot convert retinoic acid back to retinal or retinol. The half-lives of retinoic acid and their associated metabolites are under 30 hours (Wiegland, 1998).
 
Yes, I am aware that the reported half-life for RA is documented to be very short. However, I'm not buying that information. Firstly, the Accutane victims that have contacted me typically report that they are still experiencing the "side-effects" after more than 10 years later. So, on one hand, there's no question the drug causes long term damage, but the body should have been able to recover from that damage after 10 years. Therefore,it more likely that the half-life is much longer than reported. Secondly, the 30 hours claim is complete nonsense because the treatment of Accutane is often for 6 months or more. Over that time, the Accutane accumulates in the lipids that the body continuously moves out into the sebaceous glands of the skin. This is functional mechanism of the drug, and it typically takes about 6 or more months for the drug to "work". It works by toxifying the lipids to such an extent that the RA then poisons the bacteria living in those lipids. So, since this process has been drudging and accumulation process has repeated millions of times over now, clearly accutane persists in this lipids for at least 6 months, or more.  Thus, someone is lying about the 30 hours. Of course, the RA is not just poisoning the bacteria living on the skin, it is also poisoning the all-important stem cells too.
 
I don't think I had specifically stated that RA can be stored in the liver for a long period of time. But, it definitely persists in the skin lipids for long periods of time. That fact has been completely proven. Lastly, there's been so much fraud and corruption surrounding the justification for Accutane, it would not surprise me at all to learn the 30 hour half-life determination was made by the marketing department. But, since we know that RA accumulates in the skin lipids for six months or more, why would we believe its not going to accumulate in other body lipids too?
 
Quite ironically, I am now totally convinced that acne is the result of the over-accumulation of VA in the sebaceous glands in the first place. This over-accumulation causes them to swell up and expand, and that opens the skin pores to the allow bacteria to more easily enter. It also provides the non-stop transport of lipids that fuels the growth of that bacteria. What's happened to me now is that after 4 years of no VA is all of my skin has become super smooth, super nice, almost like it was when I was 10 years old. The pores have definitely become tiny ( as in normal).
 
 
I read the ebook and wrote my all my disagreements to the author. All due respect, I believe the book is nonesense. I will provide several reasons here, aside from the possible glaring pharmacological error in assuming Accutane stays in the body for years. :D
The author's main premise is that vitamin A is a blanket toxin that is at the root of almost all auto-immune disease. If that is true, he must explain the following:1. Why do people with IBD show low vitamin A levels? Even if it is the disease causing the deficiency, shouldn't this be advantageous for symptoms? How come people with Chrohn's can be completely emaciated and still show symptoms?
 
Not only do people with IBD show low levels of vitamin A, it is also reported in schizophrenia, autism, and post measles infections too. I believe it’s because there is prolonged cellular damage leading to the more rapid conversion of circulating VA to retinoic acid. Thus, this causes the depletion of the so-called vitamin. 
 

2. If vitamin A is simply a toxin, why does it show efficacy for treating a lung disease?
 
In all three of these studies, taking very high doses of beta-carotene, with or without 25,000 IU retinyl palmitate or 325 mg aspirin, did not prevent lung cancer. In fact, both the CARET and ATBC studies showed a significant increase in lung cancer risk among study participants taking beta-carotene supplements or beta-carotene and retinyl palmitate supplements.
Source: National Institutes of Health
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminA-HealthProfessional/
 

3. Why is Accutane-induced night blindness helped by vitamin A supplementation? (Well, I can speculate why. Accutane actually interferes with some aspects of vitamin A metabolism due to the large doses of one particular metabolite being supplemented at the expense of everything else.)
 
Yes, there are a lot of reports of  Accutane-induced night blindness.
 
I've read similar reports of vitamin A supplementation being used to treat the condition. But, what so amazing to me about these reports is that they fail to see the most obvious thing in the world. It that they've first STOPPED the Accutane treatment, and then STARTED the vitamin A supplementation, and then claim the VA helped ameliorate the disease. Obviously, they simply stopped adding the toxin causing the night blindness, and the body then starts repairing that damage. So, if they even supplementation these people with say sawdust, they would have still recovered from night blindness. They would have probably recovered even faster too. The VA supplementation had nothing to do it it (other than the oil containing the VA could be beneficial).
 

4. Why is Accutane induced depression helped by vitamin A supplementation? Danby FW. Oral isotretinoin, neuropathy and hypovitaminosis A. Clin Exp Dermatol. 2008;33(2):190. (Again, I can speculate an answer. Of note, I see these types of anecdotes on my Accutane group too.)
 
AS ABOVE
 

5. The author argues that autoimmune diseases look a lot like hypervitaminosis A and that this is evidence it is the vitamin A is directly causing symptoms. The author must explain how drugs like prednisone, Humira, and topical creams help calm symptoms. Where does this vitamin A go during this symptom relief? Is it literally neutralized?
 
The drugs block up the same cellular receptors as used to transport the retinoids in to the cytoplasm. So, no, they are not literally neutralizing the VA, just postponing it.
 
 

6. One of the arguments put forth is that liver growth with age helps fend off sub-clinical hypervitaminosis as we age. He uses this idea to explain why kids get Autism and eczema and elderly people get Alzheimer's. Specifically, he focuses on the fact that eczema is common in the very young (small livers) and then again in those age 50+ (those with stagnated livers). This is a bizarre point to me. What about autoimmune illnesses that are commonly developed in those who are in their 20s-30s? IBD? M.S.? How do you explain that? Also, why do so many people never "outgrow" Autism? Perhaps the age of onset of these autoimmune illnesses have nothing to do with aging/expanding livers. . . . More broadly speaking, how is this theory remotely compatible with autoimmune illnesses that are intermittent/relapsing in nature? Also, through what mechanism would vitamin A (the one main cause of autoimmune illness) cause different autoimmune conditions at different ages? The real answer is that these conditions are much more complicated than the author lets on.
 
I do extensively document this process of liver volume correlating to disease, and explain exactly why the disease often first shows up the 20s-30s. In my second book, I do explain that autism is really brain damage. Most people are not going to recover from that. But, some do.
 

7. If vitamin A is at the root of autoimmune illness, how does this fit into the idea that microbial transplants can both cure and induce a number of autoimmune diseases in mice? Does bacteria make the liver grow or something?
 
No, the bacteria is helping to consume the VA, and expel it from the body via the digestive waste.
 
 

8. He also misunderstands evolution by asking why the immune system behaves in such haywire ways during autoimmune illness if there is no physical reason to (e.g., active presence of vitamin A poisoning). Evolution does not lead to perfect organisms.
 
I disagree with this. Evolution does lead to perfect organisms.There are millions of animal and plant species that are perfected well adapted to their environments.
 
 
It is more accurate to say natural selection weeds out traits that are detrimental to one's survival than it is to say natural selection selects for advantageous traits.
 
it's not  natural selection.
 
This is not just semantics. Let me use a convoluted analogy. Let's pretend that when Tigers (for all intents and purposes) were "evolving," some evolved to have 30 pound tails and some evolved to have normal tails. Of course, the tigers with 30 pound tails would die off because it would hinder their ability to stalk prey. Now, if the surviving Tigers had some unnecessary trait such as wisdom teeth or an under-developed fifth leg that hardly hindered their ability to run, evolution has no mechanism to phase out these traits. And it wouldn't have a reason to. Why? Because these Tigers are still reproducing. Perhaps not all of them. Perhaps some of them incur infections from their "wisdom teeth" or are slightly impeded by their under developed limb. But if MOST Tigers are still able to reproduce with these traits, that's good enough for evolution. Some traits are "annoying" to an organism, but do not significantly hinder reproduction, so they stick around. Evolution doesn't care very much about quality of life.
 
 If anyone has really bothered to read Darwin's Evolution of the Species, they would realize that Darwin know full well that random mutation, and natural selection plays such a tiny role in evolution. Darwin's clearly documented that it was a breading selection the was the real driver in evolution. Moreover, he also knew that it was the mother's life experiences that "programmed" the so-called mutations in the offspring. It is not random.
 

9. The author is feeling better on an extremely limited diet. Yes, it is devoid of vitamin A. But the fact it excludes a number of commonly "triggering" foods should not be discounted as well. He noted reacting poorly to strawberries, which are actually a fairly common trigger food. There is something to be said about diet and autoimmune disease being linked. But I do not think normal levels of vitamin A have anything to do with it.
 
I'm not just "feeling better". I've now fully recovered from doctor diagnosed cataracts, eczema, and kidney disease too. I have zero doubt that vitamin A had everything to do with it. I continue to live on my VA deplete diet to prove that vitamin A is not a vitamin. No after 4 years, I think someone has some explaining to do in support of that vitamin theory.
 

And there were a couple of other things I took issue with, but that sums it up. I believe Accutane is an extremely dangerous drug simply for the fact it is an overdose of a metabolite of vitamin A, which many of us consumed daily for months at a time. I believe it causes immune system disturbance. I believe it possibly disrupts the retinoid pathway. I believe it causes global apoptotic effects. I believe it induces gene changes. I do not believe Accutane is actively in our bodies in excess amount, thereby causing some sort of prolonged, acute response to said Accutane directly.
 
In fact, evidence seems to show that avoiding vitamin A probably has more risks than benefits"
 
Oh yeah? Like what?
 
But, let's not get too bogged down into debates. Debates are almost pointless. This is science, so let's see what the experiments show us. If you have time, and space I'd highly recommend repeating my small animal experiment.
 
Just so that you know, I'm not alone in this. I've been contacted by four separate academic medical researchers that very much agree with my observations and theories. It's just too early for them to make any public statements.
 
I hope this helps.

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"Quite ironically, I am now totally convinced that acne is the result of the over-accumulation of VA in the sebaceous glands in the first place. This over-accumulation causes them to swell up and expand, and that opens the skin pores to the allow bacteria to more easily enter. It also provides the non-stop transport of lipids that fuels the growth of that bacteria"

Perhaps some evidence should be used to support this.   

Edited by mikez

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37 minutes ago, mikez said:

"Quite ironically, I am now totally convinced that acne is the result of the over-accumulation of VA in the sebaceous glands in the first place. This over-accumulation causes them to swell up and expand, and that opens the skin pores to the allow bacteria to more easily enter. It also provides the non-stop transport of lipids that fuels the growth of that bacteria"

Perhaps some evidence should be used to support this.   


It sounds like an educated guess to me. I think he's provided us with plenty of very useful information, check out his ebook if you haven't

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Hello,

sorry for m bad English at first, I am from Germany.
My name is Dennis, I am 23 years old & have do Accutane about 1 year at 10mg/day (Last pill was on the beginning this year)
So I am 6 months without Accutan.
But I have some Problems left.

1. I am sweating like shit. Tones of sweat even when it’s 20C+.
It starts 2 Month after start taking accutan and don’t remove :(
When I sit my ass and my back is wet as hell. My forehead is wet always when the sun is shining on it..
and it does not go better.
Aluminium salts don’t work very good.
can someone please help me?

2. But not sooo heavy problem.
my skin get very ugly scars when it’s hurt.

I am very thankful if somebody can help my with this terrible live destroying sweating :)

King Regards!
Dennis

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4 hours ago, marshl1 said:

It sounds like an educated guess to me. I think he's provided us with plenty of very useful information, check out his ebook if you haven't
Thank you @marshl1 for contacting GG (the author), his points are indeed useful. I'm too trying to adopt zero vit. A diet. It would probably be good to create a separate thread on these board dedicated to his theory.

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13 hours ago, marshl1 said:

It sounds like an educated guess to me. I think he's provided us with plenty of very useful information, check out his ebook if you haven't

 Will check it out soon.  Edited by mikez

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45 minutes ago, sacha_n said:
5 hours ago, marshl1 said:

It sounds like an educated guess to me. I think he's provided us with plenty of very useful information, check out his ebook if you haven't
Thank you @marshl1 for contacting GG (the author), his points are indeed useful. I'm too trying to adopt zero vit. A diet. It would probably be good to create a separate thread on these board dedicated to his theory.

I think that's a great idea. How are you finding the zero vitamin A diet? It's difficult isn't it

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6 hours ago, Kolonie said:

Hello,

sorry for m bad English at first, I am from Germany.
My name is Dennis, I am 23 years old & have do Accutane about 1 year at 10mg/day (Last pill was on the beginning this year)
So I am 6 months without Accutan.
But I have some Problems left.

1. I am sweating like shit. Tones of sweat even when it’s 20C+.
It starts 2 Month after start taking accutan and don’t remove :(
When I sit my ass and my back is wet as hell. My forehead is wet always when the sun is shining on it..
and it does not go better.
Aluminium salts don’t work very good.
can someone please help me?

2. But not sooo heavy problem.
my skin get very ugly scars when it’s hurt.

I am very thankful if somebody can help my with this terrible live destroying sweating :)

King Regards!
Dennis


You’d be like many of us in that you have a Sebum production issue!!

Why? Well you could look at some of the posts on previous page for an explanation, there’s plenty on that page alone!!

I’m also thinking though that lack of “testosterone” can result in Sebum loss. Sweat just pours out of me and I’m 20 years after taking Accutane so time alone won’t heal you.

So you can either jump on the anti Vit A diet and see how that pans out, try increasing testosterone or work on gut health bacteria - these seem to be the 3 main areas of interest on the forum.

Keep us updated on how you progress!! Edited by TrueJustice

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14 hours ago, marshl1 said:

I sent this on to the author of the ebook and here is what he had to say if you're interested.
 

"Can you please provide a source that retinoic acid specifically can be stored in the liver for long periods of time? Accutane is a metabolite of Retinol (vitamin A) known as 13-cis-retinoic acid. The body cannot convert retinoic acid back to retinal or retinol. The half-lives of retinoic acid and their associated metabolites are under 30 hours (Wiegland, 1998).
 
Yes, I am aware that the reported half-life for RA is documented to be very short. However, I'm not buying that information. Firstly, the Accutane victims that have contacted me typically report that they are still experiencing the "side-effects" after more than 10 years later. So, on one hand, there's no question the drug causes long term damage, but the body should have been able to recover from that damage after 10 years. Therefore,it more likely that the half-life is much longer than reported. Secondly, the 30 hours claim is complete nonsense because the treatment of Accutane is often for 6 months or more. Over that time, the Accutane accumulates in the lipids that the body continuously moves out into the sebaceous glands of the skin. This is functional mechanism of the drug, and it typically takes about 6 or more months for the drug to "work". It works by toxifying the lipids to such an extent that the RA then poisons the bacteria living in those lipids. So, since this process has been drudging and accumulation process has repeated millions of times over now, clearly accutane persists in this lipids for at least 6 months, or more.  Thus, someone is lying about the 30 hours. Of course, the RA is not just poisoning the bacteria living on the skin, it is also poisoning the all-important stem cells too.
 
I don't think I had specifically stated that RA can be stored in the liver for a long period of time. But, it definitely persists in the skin lipids for long periods of time. That fact has been completely proven. Lastly, there's been so much fraud and corruption surrounding the justification for Accutane, it would not surprise me at all to learn the 30 hour half-life determination was made by the marketing department. But, since we know that RA accumulates in the skin lipids for six months or more, why would we believe its not going to accumulate in other body lipids too?
 
Quite ironically, I am now totally convinced that acne is the result of the over-accumulation of VA in the sebaceous glands in the first place. This over-accumulation causes them to swell up and expand, and that opens the skin pores to the allow bacteria to more easily enter. It also provides the non-stop transport of lipids that fuels the growth of that bacteria. What's happened to me now is that after 4 years of no VA is all of my skin has become super smooth, super nice, almost like it was when I was 10 years old. The pores have definitely become tiny ( as in normal).
 
 
I read the ebook and wrote my all my disagreements to the author. All due respect, I believe the book is nonesense. I will provide several reasons here, aside from the possible glaring pharmacological error in assuming Accutane stays in the body for years. :D
The author's main premise is that vitamin A is a blanket toxin that is at the root of almost all auto-immune disease. If that is true, he must explain the following:1. Why do people with IBD show low vitamin A levels? Even if it is the disease causing the deficiency, shouldn't this be advantageous for symptoms? How come people with Chrohn's can be completely emaciated and still show symptoms?
 
But, let's not get too bogged down into debates. Debates are almost pointless. This is science, so let's see what the experiments show us. If you have time, and space I'd highly recommend repeating my small animal experiment.
 
Just so that you know, I'm not alone in this. I've been contacted by four separate academic medical researchers that very much agree with my observations and theories. It's just too early for them to make any public statements.
 
I hope this helps.

I am trying to understand this. So, someone wrote a book and is making the case that isotretinoin must stay in the body because people report symptoms years later. That's their argument - and they call it "science"?

Isotretinoin has a half life of 10-20 hours. It's not even close to years. Not even if you tried to come up with some made up justification in your head. Maybe they should read up on RAR and RXR. What is known is that retinoic acid has the ability to alter molecular "switches" in the body. It binds to your DNA via RAR.

And of course you can find retinoic acid in your body. There are proteins that regulate it, but it is always present.

A more plausible explanation is that the genome becomes damaged and in some people it can be weeks to years for it to become severe and/or widespread enough to exhibit symptoms. The severity is dependent upon the individual's genome, what damage, and where. That could also explain why it seems to be permanent and why there is such a multitude of symptoms.
 

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Jason3 - is the testosterone treatment you have success with working on anything other than just your testosterone levels?

Is it helping repair genome damage for instance or is that completely unrelated?

What do we have to do here? Go to an anti ageing clinic or something to look at repairing cellular damage?

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Hey,

I think the testosteron Theorie is absolotly wrong. I have taken it 2 years in low to high doses for bodybuilding and it changed nothing. Yes maybe you feel better, but only becomes testosteron makes you little better feeling, if you stop, then it’s the same shit. And it’s not an magic drug, the chances in feeling and so are very little. 

And maybe it’s hart to hear, but I have read many of this pages and other sides... and I had a 30 minutes call with a medicin man from a manufacturing firm of Isotretinoin (Isogalen in Germany) but I think we have absolutely no correct idea and will never find the right way to make accutan undone. I don’t think it can be undone, because DNA etc.

And when there is a way, we won’t find it, maybe a laboratory research can, but actually there isn’t, no one is interested in research about accutan... it’s hopeless..
sorry for this bad words, but I think it’s useless to make hope any more.
i am so done with this shit..

Edit: And accutan is NOT in our body’s anymore, my dry lips got after threadment wet again, so I think it has left my body.

Edited by Kolonie

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3 hours ago, Jason3 said:

I am trying to understand this. So, someone wrote a book and is making the case that isotretinoin must stay in the body because people report symptoms years later. That's their argument - and they call it "science"?

Isotretinoin has a half life of 10-20 hours. It's not even close to years. Not even if you tried to come up with some made up justification in your head. Maybe they should read up on RAR and RXR. What is known is that retinoic acid has the ability to alter molecular "switches" in the body. It binds to your DNA via RAR.

And of course you can find retinoic acid in your body. There are proteins that regulate it, but it is always present.

A more plausible explanation is that the genome becomes damaged and in some people it can be weeks to years for it to become severe and/or widespread enough to exhibit symptoms. The severity is dependent upon the individual's genome, what damage, and where. That could also explain why it seems to be permanent and why there is such a multitude of symptoms.
 

You won't understand his theory if you don't read the ebook but it sounds like you have it all figured out anyway.

Good luck to you if you are making progress.

Thanks

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