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Posted
1 hour ago, brendan452 said:

Hi just a quick question as any body had a liver ultrasound done as I'm going for one very soon thanks 


Yes 2 over last 13 years - found to have a fatty liver. That’s not enough though to have anyone alarmed in the medical world, the response there is clean up diet and exercise more. This approach also applies to high cholesterol and prob numerous other conditions that aren’t life threatening but none the less need addressing 

Whilst I totally agree with this approach it does nothing to help understand what to do with a ”taned” out body/mind.....WE don’t know and it’s now completely understood by all that doctors don’t even know hence the experimenting shall continue.....

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Posted
31 minutes ago, swistak007as said:

So if it's all about DHT, are your DHT levels under the scale?


Some people have low DHT, some have high, others normal - it's likely dependant on whether your receptors were left up or down regulated after taking the drug. There are definitely at least 2 sub-sets, probably more, of how your body is stuck when with post-accutane, PFS, PSSD etc. One of the reasons it's so hard to figure this out, and why people respond differently to things (i.e. what benefits one, doesn't benefit the other).

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Posted
37 minutes ago, tanedout said:

Some people have low DHT, some have high, others normal - it's likely dependant on whether your receptors were left up or down regulated after taking the drug. There are definitely at least 2 sub-sets, probably more, of how your body is stuck when with post-accutane, PFS, PSSD etc. One of the reasons it's so hard to figure this out, and why people respond differently to things (i.e. what benefits one, doesn't benefit the other).

Just to be clear, there’s no receptor test as such is there?

All you can do is test Testosterone levels and go from there correct?

I got Estrogen blood test yesterday which I’ll get results for next week.

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Posted (edited)

Same here, I've seen the best gastro's and endo's money can buy, as I live in a prominent area.  I've had an endoscopy and everything checks out. He recommends a low fat diet and doesn't see anything wrong with supplementing with digestive enzymes or HCI bitters (look it up). He even recommends kefir to his patients with diarrhea, which I don't have, but drink often anyways. I have no bacteria overgrowth in my gut. I have a good relationship with my stomach and bowels and have good communication with them as well. Everyone should eat more raw fruits and vegetables. I urge anyone with any type of health issues to address diet first and foremost, and if you want, try a few detox methods. That is like so obvious.

But, it's not the root of Isotretinoin's trouble. The drug has the potential of disrupting homeostatis in the body system wide. How does it do that? Well, we don't know the mechanisms of action. However, I think that experts have a rough idea. And I get bits and pieces from comments and studies. We know it is toxic, we know it is a teratogen, and we know it is highly lipophilic (which is why they tell you to eat a meal when taking Accutane.)

Do you know what happens when you ingest toxic substances that are highly lipophilic? It is distributed throughout the body. Especially the areas that are high in fat. The brain being comprised of 60% fat. The liver being 10% fat. Also, it being lipophilic wold explain why there is a delayed response in some of the people.

There was a medical student that commented on a finasteride forum, and he purported that the persistent side effects seen in men who took the drug finasteride (its side effect profile resembling Isotretinoin) was due to a dysregulation of the Endocannabinoid system. It's possible. There is a strong relationship with fats and the cannabinoid receptors. So, I'll just leave it at that for now. 

There is more to this puzzle than meets the eye (Gut flora or DHT). It's complicated. Just let me do my trial and error and I will eventually figure it out. Or I will die. It Happens.

------------------------------

As far as my endocrine system is concerned. I think my doctors and I have addressed it well enough.
 

Testosterone 855 ng/dL 264 - 916 ng/dL




I'm fit. I run. I wake up with a full erection like a teenager again. I ate lettuce, avocado, duck eggs, and a steak today. I feel healthy. However, my brain is depressed (or suppressed would be a better word). I cannot elicit pleasure, even when I run miles and miles, my brain is not producing Anandamide or some other neuro chemical transmiter. It sucks and it's been like this ever since cessation of Accutane. For a long time. I gotta fix it. Edited by macleod

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Posted
1 hour ago, swistak007as said:

So if it's all about DHT, are your DHT levels under the scale?


I think its the androgenic receptors that are messed up. They refuse to interact with available DHT the way they're supposed to.

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Posted

I thought the idea with the latest hemp oil is that it’s NOT supposed to get you high?? 

Id love to take it but, who do you get the good stuff off? especially when it’s still illegal as far as I know, I’d have no idea who to get it from in Sydney and I’m not into making my own.

Also I’m a sales manager out on the road driving all day, it would only take a Random Drug Test which the cops are big on doing these days and I could lose my job...fucked if that’s happening!!

As a group we definitely should be candidates for legally having access to hemp oil, it’s actually the one good fucking thing the medical community could do for us after all the crap in my opinion, it would certainly be a point in the right direction that’s for sure....an acknowledgment at least.

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Posted
nothing depends on the level of your hormones but on the level of response (receptors) that your body has to take advantage of them
														

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Posted
everything that you inhibit, blocks or decreases for a while, when you stop it you are lessened it will be more because your body creates more response to that for the moment being "missing" and everything you raise with something when you stop taking what is increasing the answer to that will be less because your body thinks that "you have a lot and do not need as much" your body will always try to seek balance, you should not take anything that changes its natural form, just having a good diet and that will give you the necessary, this is for everything, hormones, vitamins, etc, if I knew the many things I know nowadays before taking accutane I would be very well, only thing that served all this disgrace of accutane was to have greatly increased my knowledge and started to study and research a lot to try to find a solution for this
														

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Posted
1 hour ago, namelk said:

nothing depends on the level of your hormones but on the level of response (receptors) that your body has to take advantage of them
																

Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?

Who's field of expertise is that?

If the answer is you can't well..........

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:

Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?

Who's field of expertise is that?

If the answer is you can't well..........

METHODS:

Patients undergoing transurethral resection of the prostate and either treated or not treated with finasteride between 2004 and 2010 at the University of Wisconsin-Hospital were retrospectively identified using an institutional database. Prostate specimens from each patient were triple-stained for androgen receptor, prostate-specific antigen, and basal marker cytokeratin 5. Morphometric analysis was performed using the multispectral imaging, and results were compared between groups of finasteride treated and non-treated patients.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24789081

---
Unless you're part of a study, or insanely rich, you pretty much can't. Edited by ailaeshiz

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Posted

^there is a scenario for a study that involves accutane, finasteride and ssri's, I've already been thinking about this. This would coordinate with what the rxrisk website has going on right now. 

Also to be clear about my thoughts about taking fin to fix sides. I think its bullshit. I think its a made up theory. My question is where did this originally spawn from?  Dr. Pezzi? I can discredit him. 

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Posted

Some days I think I don’t need anymore tests, I just have “chronic cellular dehydration” end of story.

If I’m being honest, nothing in the last 20 years has given me back the hydration I once had, not one supplement, no diet, no amount of water...nothing.

Ive argued this with my kinesiologist who is a very smart guy, he says the cells replace every 7-8 years.....
For me, all I know is how I feel, the dryness I constantly experience etc.

Sure we can look into the repercussions of this cellular dehydration but will we ever get to fix this problem??

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Posted
2 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?

Who's field of expertise is that?

If the answer is you can't well..........
I’m pretty positive there was a Propecia thread rebuttaling the whole “AR Mutation” theory. If it is a receptor problem then we should just say fuck it because as of right now, there is no way around that. I honestly don’t know what to believe anymore. This is so individualized it’s crazy. For instance... my beard/body hair may grow a little slower but it still grows? How could that be a receptor problem if I can still grow a damn beard? Slow beard/body hair growth has also been a symptom of plain old hypogonadism in several cases. 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Colinboko said:
3 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?

Who's field of expertise is that?

If the answer is you can't well..........
I’m pretty positive there was a Propecia thread rebuttaling the whole “AR Mutation” theory. If it is a receptor problem then we should just say fuck it because as of right now, there is no way around that. I honestly don’t know what to believe anymore. This is so individualized it’s crazy. For instance... my beard/body hair may grow a little slower but it still grows? How could that be a receptor problem if I can still grow a damn beard? Slow beard/body hair growth has also been a symptom of plain old hypogonadism in several cases. 

I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.


I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!

I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs. Edited by TrueJustice

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.


I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!

I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs.

Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this. 

The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.

Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.

It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not.  Edited by tanedout

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Posted
1 hour ago, tanedout said:

Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this. 

The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.

Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.

It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not. 
Sources of it acting as a progestin ??? 

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Posted
7 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.


I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!

I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs.
The thing is, most guys on our forum haven’t experimented with TRT anyways... so we wouldn’t know if it’s receptors or not! That’s what I’m saying. The whole receptor theory is a tough one to prove. Like I said, wouldn’t a receptor issue cause things like body hair growth to completely stop? 

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Posted (edited)
My friend, I practice bodybuilding at 5 years, and I'm 3 in this accutane disgrace, about 4 months ago before I started thinking about this finasteride trial, I took 500 mg of testosterone per week for 10 weeks and 90 mg oxandrolone (dht derivative) for 6 weeks together, one thing I felt was a small, small even, increase in libido and muscle strength / size, as I already have a well developed body and it was my first time with hormones it was for me to have felt much more effects for the dosage and for being the first time my body had contact with hormones, then after that I started to believe even more that our receptors are fucked, since I was with almost 4.000 ng/dl free testosterone in the blood (I did tests to check) and I felt practically nothing different, that is, the level does not matter if its receptors are fucked to give the answer to the level of the hormone
														

 

 

 

I am using finasteride now to test, if it is receptors sensitivity I will have an improvement when I leave it, relax that we will find out, I will use it for about 28 to 30 days, I think I am at day 15 today

Edited by namelk

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Posted
2 hours ago, Colinboko said:
4 hours ago, tanedout said:

Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this. 

The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.

Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.

It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not. 
Sources of it acting as a progestin ??? 

Progestins are anti-androgens - and as we already know accurate is an anti-androgen;

In addition to their progestogenic activity, some progestins are antagonists of the androgen receptor and can be used therapeutically as anti androgens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestin) -> Antiandrogens, also known as androgen antagonists or testosterone blockers, are a class of drugs which prevent androgens like testosteroneand dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from mediating their biological effects in the body. They act by blocking the androgen receptor (AR) and/or inhibiting or suppressing androgen production.[1][2] Antiandrogens are one of three types of sex hormone antagonists, the others being antiestrogens and antiprogestogens. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogen)

there is additional evidence for theantiandrogenic effects of isotretinoin. Regarding substances acting on both levels, androgen receptor binding and 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9557251)

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Posted (edited)
@namelk why do your posts always look so weird?


Edit - I mean the formatting Edited by ailaeshiz

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, namelk said:

I am using finasteride now to test, if it is receptors sensitivity I will have an improvement when I leave it, relax that we will find out, I will use it for about 28 to 30 days, I think I am at day 15 today

Good luck. So the question is if there is a rebound effect does this dissipate, return to baseline and  become even more suppressed requiring another cycle and the process repeats to where you are requiring more and more cycling. 
Also if there is a possibility that finasteride simultaneously antagonizes vitamin k processes when its inhibiting the androgen receptor, more might be affected than just hormones. Edited by guitarman01

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, guitarman01 said:
English isn't his first language.
sorry, I meant the formatting. Check out his posts in desktop mode. They're all scrunched into a tiny column. Edited by ailaeshiz

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Posted

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Posted (edited)
On 12/13/2017 at 6:43 PM, ailaeshiz said:

I think its the androgenic receptors that are messed up. They refuse to interact with available DHT the way they're supposed to.
You could take this a step further and include all steroid receptors. This includes estrogen, corticosteroids and progestogens. Maybe their metabolism as well. Edited by guitarman01

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Posted
12 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:
You could take this a step further and include all steroid receptors. This includes estrogen, corticosteroids and progestogens. Maybe their metabolism as well.
Which of course raises another question: why the hell can't our receptors remember how to function properly?

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