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Starting High Calorie and Protein Diet.

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Like the title says im starting a new diet of high proteins and calories to put more weight on - i've reached the peak of working out without putting more weight on so now it's time to pile on the muscle mass but i am slightly concerned that such a high rapid increase like this could make my spots worse.

At the minute i have controllable acne but do experience occasional LARGE spots! lol.gif

So you can imagine im precautious about doing this sort of thing in case of the consequences, I drink 3 litres of water each day to help flush out excess toxins and also found that sleeping with the back of my head on the pillow clears my skin somewhat as pillow's are trapped with dust mites, bacteria etc.

Anyway has anyone experienced any abnormalities while using one of these diets?

BTW - First Post! :smile:

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When I was working out I was eating roughly 4000-5000 kcals per day, mainly clean carbs (regular oatmeal, veggies, whole grains) and lots of steaks, chicken and lean beef. I experienced no excascerbation of acne, I don't think you'll have a problem. I don't believe diet is related to acne (ducks) but watch your caffeine intake...dont let it be excessive.

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Like the title says im starting a new diet of high proteins and calories to put more weight on - i've reached the peak of working out without putting more weight on so now it's time to pile on the muscle mass but i am slightly concerned that such a high rapid increase like this could make my spots worse.

At the minute i have controllable acne but do experience occasional LARGE spots! lol.gif

So you can imagine im precautious about doing this sort of thing in case of the consequences, I drink 3 litres of water each day to help flush out excess toxins and also found that sleeping with the back of my head on the pillow clears my skin somewhat as pillow's are trapped with dust mites, bacteria etc.

Anyway has anyone experienced any abnormalities while using one of these diets?

BTW - First Post!  :smile:

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If you want to gain muscle, you gotta eat carbs. No way around it, becuase insulin is required to transport amino acids to muslce cells and carbohydrate is the most effective way to do that. If you're really worried that carbs will give you acne, eat clean carbs only...i've never seen anyone get fat or have problems from regular oatmeal (add crushed walnut, splenda, cinnamon, and blueberries...you're good to go)

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G.B. Forbes, et al., "Hormonal Response to Overfeeding," Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 49.4 (1989) : 608-611.

Anabolic hormones affect acne. Anabolic hormones increase with overfeeding.

http://thefactsaboutfitness.com/print/20jun2004.htm

High carbs are not needed for muscle growth.

Insulin IS important, but a lot is not needed. Low GI carbs and protein stimulate a fine low level insulin response.

If you notice an effect when you start your bulk... now you have options.

Edited by aaa
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..edited to avoid another pointless debate..

I disagree with your statement that studies have been posted showing a definitive link between diet and acne, as well as the statement that many scientists acknowledge the link between diet and acne. Anyways, that study regarding resistance training doesn't go into detail about what kind of experience they have...starting out, nearly anyone can gain strength even on a crappy diet. But from first hand experience by myself, others, and even some national competetors that I have talked to...if you don't eat enough carbs, you're gonna stagnate in terms of growth and strength gains. This is just a simple fact that anyone with a name in weightlifting will acknowledge...besides, understanding the science behind how one gains strength and muscle it should be pretty obvious that carbs are very beneficial, especially post workout.

And....are you getting acne regardless of the type of carbs you're eating? What i'm advocating here if you think that carbs are giving you acne - is to eat clean carbs, just a lot more of them. I never said to pig out on cake and donuts...

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That makes sense. I don't know how different types of carbs affect me. I did'nt experiment with that, instead, I dropped my total carbs very low.

The most accepted carb/insulin theory suggests that high GI carbs are the 'bad' ones. It is possible that lots of low GI carbs would be ok.

If your interested in the theory about building muscle on a lower carb diet you can check out:

http://www.extique.com/nhe.html

the link for 'ask Rob' is interesting.

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Don't put too much faith in the glycemic index - it is flawed. Basically, as I understand it any food given a glycemic rating is done so by having a subject eat 50 grams (I think? anyway it is some godawfully high amount) of a given food and testing their blood glucose for the type of response. Now for some things this is fine, but for some veggies like carrots there is no way anyone will eat this amount in one sitting. Eating a "normal" amount of carrots does not yield a huge increase in BG, or even a nominal one in my experience. This is one of the foods given a high glycemic rating.

I think another group of researchers are working on something called the insulin index II, which will supposedly be more reliable.

Anyway..there is no doubt in my mind that taking sugar with protein post workout is more effective in terms of shuttle ATP, glycogen and amino acids to muscle cells....and if the workout is hard enough there shouldn't be any negative IR type effects from the sugar. But if you think that sugar gives you acne, you may want to experiment with a high carb diet, but only with clean carbs.

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OMG, Evigrex and I actually agree about something! Wow =)

OK, so anyway, I don't follow the glycemic load or index as I too believe it is flawed. Not only that but...I've found scientific evidence in support of certain carbs over other carbs in reducing one's insulin & hormonal response. Sometimes it agrees with the index, and other times it does not.

Before I even considered switching my diet, I was not a calorie nor carb counter, and I'm still not. We all need to find our own method and motivations, but for me, the method of motivation was that I could probably achieve the same results or better, if I just eliminated certain carbohydrates instead. To me, if I was going to do this, it need to be as "easy" as possible on my poor mind ;-)

I opted to eliminate the one thing that I loved to consume the most, wheat, but refined sugars cause problems too. So what I actually chose to eliminate was gluten grains which includes wheat, barely, and rye. Oatmeal is constantly debated, and the reason some people avoid it is that it may be cross contaminated with gluten, but otherwise it is supposed to be safe.

What I've noticed out of those that train, is that they seem to do fairly well on regimens like the above, or from consuming only gluten-free whole grains, brown rice, or unrefined oatmeal. Many people on here that follow the "Reduced Grain Low Carb diet," lol, consume some spelt (low gluten), or gluten-free whole grains, or brown rice, or unrefined oatmeal, if they choose to consume grains at all.

Also, if you are going to consume protein supplements, please be aware that there are members of this board, including myself, that have broken out severely from Whey Protein (darn it), and others have broken out from Soy Protein. So in case you start to have problems that you normally didn't have, you may wnt to keep those two possibilities in mind when choosing your Carb and Protein Sources. If you want a safer protein source, Brown Rice Protein Powder is supposed to be good. It contains 14g - 27g of Protein per serving, depending on the brand.

Otherwise, I have nothing more to add, and quite happily leave this area to the professionals ;-)

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Protein really slows down the rate carbs affect insulin and since your bulking you need lots of protein. I also agree that you need tons of carbs to bulk, especially if you plan on staying in shape and staying muscular the rest of your life. It has to be clean carbs. Oatmeal and 12 grain bread were my friends here.

Turkey, beef(grass fed), chicken(hormone free), pork(lean hormone free can just as easily be as lean as chicken), fish and certain legumes are going to be your sources for protein(I won't go into dairy as many here hate it but it doesn't affect me at all acne wise).

YOu also have to eat a ton of vegetables in order to get all the nutrients(and to keep your bowels in check with the fiber) but don't forget the carbs. I would die if I ate only 20 carbs a day, let alone 100.

Also take this into account, your brain uses 25% of your calories and it does matter how you get your energy. Carbs are really important, expecially if your active, because your muscles will use the carbs before the brain when you acive and you'll start to think slower. It is proven that people that are active have decreased brain activity when on a low carb diet.

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Protein really slows down the rate carbs affect insulin and since your bulking you need lots of protein. I also agree that you need tons of carbs to bulk, especially if you plan on staying in shape and staying muscular the rest of your life. It has to be clean carbs. Oatmeal and 12 grain bread were my friends here.

Turkey, beef(grass fed), chicken(hormone free), pork(lean hormone free can just as easily be as lean as chicken), fish and certain legumes are going to be your sources for protein(I won't go into dairy as many here hate it but it doesn't affect me at all acne wise).

YOu also have to eat a ton of vegetables in order to get all the nutrients(and to keep your bowels in check with the fiber) but don't forget the carbs. I would die if I ate only 20 carbs a day, let alone 100. 

Also take this into account, your brain uses 25% of your calories and it does matter how you get your energy. Carbs are really important, expecially if your active, because your muscles will use the carbs before the brain when you acive and you'll start to think slower. It is proven that people that are active have decreased brain activity when on a low carb diet.

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Its not a myth, its the truth! What do you think one of the purposes of glucose is ? Now I doubt many people will experience a signifigant difference unless they enter ketosis - but if you ever enter ketosis or come close to it the difference in cognitive function is astounding.

Any bodybuilder worth their weight only low carb during competition phase - to lose the water weight to give a dry, grainy look. Not when they're bulking up and trying to gain mass....

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LOL. I'm a low carber too. My brain operates just fine, thank you smile.gif I've been doing low carb for a year now. It is definitely a myth the the brain requires glucose to function well. It operates on ketones just fine. Or it can get glucose from the breakdown of proteins. There is a period of adjustment the first few days and then afterwards I actually notice I concentrate better and think even MORE clearly on a low carb diet than a high carb one.

You don't have to be in ketosis either to get the require ketones for the brain to use. Like I said above, glucose can be derived from proteins. Eat adequate proteins and you'll be fine.

Serre

-----------------

Glucose and protein use

When present in sufficient quantities, glucose is the preferred fuel for most tissues in the body. The major exception to this is the heart, which uses a mix of glucose, FFA and ketones.

The major source of glucose in the body is from dietary carbohydrate. However, other substances can be converted to glucose in the liver and kidney through a process called

gluconeogenesis. This includes certain amino acids, especially alanine and glutamine. With normal glucose availability, there is little gluconeogenesis from the body’s protein stores. This has led many to state that carbohydrate has a ‘protein sparing’ effect in that it prevents the breakdown of protein to make glucose. While it is true that a high carbohydrate intake can be protein sparing, it is often ignored that this same high carbohydrate also decreases the use of fat for fuel. Thus in addition to being ‘protein sparing’, carbohydrate is also ‘fat sparing’

If glucose requirements are high but glucose availability is low, as in the initial days of fasting, the body will break down its own protein stores to produce glucose. This is probably the origin of the concept that low carbohydrate diets are muscle wasting. An adequate protein intake during the first weeks of a ketogenic diet will prevent muscle loss by supplying the amino acids for gluconeogenesis that would otherwise come from body proteins.

By extension, under conditions of low glucose availability, if glucose requirements go down due to increases in alternative fuels such as FFA and ketones, the need for gluconeogenesis from protein will also decrease.

Since protein breakdown is intimately related to glucose requirements and availability, we can effectively consider these two fuels together. Arguably the major adaptation to the ketogenic diet is a decrease in glucose use by the body, which exerts a protein sparing effect.

Free Fatty Acids (FFA) and Ketones

Most tissues of the body can use FFA for fuel if it is available. This includes skeletal muscle, the heart, and most organs. However, there are other tissues such as the brain, red blood cells, the renal medulla, bone marrow and Type II muscle fibers which cannot use FFA and require glucose. The fact that the brain is incapable of using FFA for fuel has led to one of the biggest misconceptions about human physiology: that the brain can only use glucose for fuel. While it is true that the brain normally runs on glucose, the brain will readily use ketones for fuel if they are available.

Arguably the most important tissue in terms of ketone utilization is the brain which can derive up to 75% of its total energy requirements from ketones after adaptation. In all

likelihood, ketones exist primarily to provide a fat-derived fuel for the brain during periods when carbohydrates are unavailable.

As with glucose and FFA, the utilization of ketones is related to their availability. Under normal dietary conditions, ketone concentrations are so low that ketones provide a negligible amount of energy to the tissues of the body. If ketone concentrations increase, most tissues in the body will begin to derive some portion of their energy requirements from ketones. Some research also suggests that ketones are the preferred fuel of many tissues. One exception is the liver which does not use ketones for fuel, relying instead on FFA.

By the third day of ketosis, all of the non-protein fuel is derived from the oxidation of FFA and ketones. As ketosis develops, most tissues which can use ketones for fuel will stop using them to a significant degree by the third week. This decrease in ketone utilization occurs due to a down regulation of the enzymes responsible for ketone use and occurs in all tissues except the brain. After three weeks, most tissues will meet their energy requirements almost exclusively through the breakdown of FFA. This is thought to be an adaptation to ensure adequate ketone levels for the brain. Except in the case of Type I diabetes, ketones will only be present in the bloodstream under conditions where FFA use by the body has increased. For all practical purposes we can assume that a large increase in FFA use is accompanied by an increase in ketone utilization and these two fuels can be considered together.

http://www.allyourstrength.com/nutrition_1002Fuel.html

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Generally, one has to eat a huge amount of fat and an extremely low amount of carbs (<10 grams sometimes) for several days to enter ketosis - i've tried this once and the difference for me was obvious.....and don't think you're automatically in ketosis just because you're low carbing, you must test for blood ketones to verify whether you're in ketosis or not. For endomorphic folks, entering ketosis can be difficult. I don't know if you will acknowledge it (the difference in cognitive function), but there is a difference.... after searching the usenet for opinions it seems that most people agree.

You're right that all foods produce a glucose response, but the difference in protein and carbohydrate in terms of a blood glucose response is quite large.

Personally, I think that low carbing while trying to gain muslce is pure insanity - the science behind how amino acids, glycogen and ATP to muscle cells is transported to muscle cells is there ... so it should be obvious that a diet with a higher amount of carbohydrate is much better for strength and mass gains..but hey, whatever floats your boat man.

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carbs r important, maybe if u want to lose some weight but if ur going to be working out ur going to need them.

try to have a ratio of bout 40/30/30 between the calories u get from carbs protein and fat 40 being carbs

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I think the main concern of those involved is acne. I don't think there is a link at all between carbohydrates and acne, but if one is suspected - why not eat a larger amount of clean carbs (ie no sugar or refined foods) as an alternative? When I first started weightlifting years ago, I noticed that my strength gains stagnated week by week - when I stopped eating like a bird and formulated a very regimented diet, my strength skyrocketed and so did gains. I gained almost 30 pounds naturally with almost no bodyfat gain in around a year doing this.

Now if your reasonings for carb depletion are more related to losing bodyfat - I can totally understand that. There is no question that a diet with a caloric and carbohydrate deficit will be more effective than traditional diets in that sense, but you may still want to cycle between high carbs and low carbs to maximize strength gains.

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I think the main concern of those involved is acne.  I don't think there is a link at all between carbohydrates and acne, but if one is suspected - why not eat a larger amount of clean carbs (ie no sugar or refined foods) as an alternative?    When I first started weightlifting years ago, I noticed that my strength gains stagnated week by week - when I stopped eating like a bird and formulated a very regimented diet, my strength skyrocketed and so did gains.   I gained almost 30 pounds naturally with almost no bodyfat gain in around a year doing this.

Now if your reasonings for carb depletion are more related to losing bodyfat - I can totally understand that.  There is no question that a diet with a caloric and carbohydrate deficit will be more effective than traditional diets in that sense, but you may still want to cycle between high carbs and low carbs to maximize strength gains.

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It's always been very hard for me to put weight on, and while I have my theories on that, how much carbohydrates and protein are you guys consuming to build muscle?
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And about the ketogenic diet that I'm on now, my brain works just fine without carbs. I have energy in the gym, not as much as with carbs, but enough to finish my workouts. My maximum strength level hasn't dropped at all in a month, though I'm sure they will at some point.

As for my skin, my Accutane course ended about 2 weeks ago. The skin is definately getting more oilier, and there was a first zit in my cheek today. So this was my last course of this drug, it has caused me enough scars and missery, so no more. Reducing carbs dramatically doesn't seem to have any effect to my skin either, but I will keep monitoring the situation.

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For me, the best way to put on a bit of weight was to eat a ridiculous amount of calories first and foremost (5000 calories) and then divide that into about 1-2 grams of protein per lb. of bodyweight and 2-3 grams of carbs per pound, with good fats thrown in there for a good measure. Lots of steaks, tuna, steaks, lean ground beef, steaks, steaks and more steaks. Worked pretty well!

LOL I can't ever acknowledge an opposing view in a debate, you should know that! I once argued with a stop sign and by god.... the sign is now gone because it has seen things my way.

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just want to bring this topic back up :) very useful information right here.

i don't break out from protein supplements unlike some people here. I think it depends on the brand.

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