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sanjoseskin

Skin Needling Publication

:D Hey Here is an interesting publication. Study performed within 2007-2008, and published in 2009.

32 Patients participated.

Key Notes to pay attention to.

Roller type used including needle length and needle width!

Actual Rolling process... hint hint many are doing it wrong on this forum.

Type of Injury caused

Healing Process

Type of collagen layed down immediately, then replaced over the course of 1 yr.

Conclusion/Results

here is the reference:

Fabbrocini et al. Acne Scarring Treatment Using Skin Needling. Clinical and Experimental Dermatology, Vol 34, Issue 8, pg 874-879, May 2009.

It is only 6 pages, fairly easy to read. If you don't understand something scientific email me i'll translate for you.

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great find sanjose

similar to fernandez's stuff. different topicals.... what did you see

different in the "actual rolling process" which many

here are "doing wrong"???

wow thanks for sharing this article

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I've actually had this done before. The dr shot my face up with nozacaine. The brought out this,,,,like,,,lint roller with a needles and stuff all over it and started rolling it on my face for my scars. I didn't feel it because of the novacaine but the next day and a few days after my face was a little swollen and bruised. I think I paid like $300 for it too.

I wasn't happy with the results. I felt it didnt do anything. Although I only went 1 time

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great find sanjose

similar to fernandez's stuff. different topicals.... what did you see

different in the "actual rolling process" which many

here are "doing wrong"???

wow thanks for sharing this article

Correction Edit

... it seems people are rolling too many times in the same direction, being overly aggressive.

The procedure done in the publication goes 4 times in 4 different directions. horizontal, vertical, diagonal (left and right)

Edited by sanjoseskin

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yeah, i only scanned it for a minute, but that's what

i saw too. i actually am pretty aggressive when i roll

also, but that's based on fernandez's stuff. his reasoning

seems to be a dematologists can be more aggressive

than us because of the pain factor/sedation. so we have

to roll more often to see the same results. there's so many

different points of view with rolling i suppose. I (hopefull)

am grasping the basic fundamentals for success.

best wishes all

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I love how there is so much conflicting information on this site, and nobody bothers to fact check.

There is one person, his name whom I won't say, tells people to avoid vitamin A because it is basically the same as accutane, and vitamin A will cause scars. This is the same person is telling people not to take fish oil. Same person making wild claims about some rare new spontaneous scarring disease. Then he tells everyone to buy a 750 dollar led kit, with no proof it works on scars.. oh my gosh how do the moderators let this junk keep going. watch i'm probably going to get in trouble now.

IF you visit Dr. Desmond Fernandez' website, click on surgery, then scroll down to number 10 PCI...which is skin needling. He talks about how essential it is the be on the HIGHEST levels of vitamin A prior to skin needling. I wonder why he says this?

For the fear instilling person on this website, vitamin A and accutane are not the same thing. Just because one is derived from the other, doesn't mean they both have the same mechanism of action. However, high doses of vit A can be toxic.

Anyways, anybody know why Fernandez says high levels of vitamin A are needed PRIOR to operation?

His environ article talks about vitamin A gel topical afterwards, but why is he talking about high levels of vitamin-A prior? I assume he means vit-A supplements orally

Edited by sanjoseskin

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I love how there is so much conflicting information on this site, and nobody bothers to fact check.

There is one person, his name whom I won't say, tells people to avoid vitamin A because it is basically the same as accutane, and vitamin A will cause scars. This is the same person is telling people not to take fish oil. Same person making wild claims about some rare new spontaneous scarring disease. Then he tells everyone to buy a 750 dollar led kit, with no proof it works on scars.. oh my gosh how do the moderators let this junk keep going. watch i'm probably going to get in trouble now.

....

For the fear instilling person on this website, vitamin A and accutane are not the same thing. Just because one is derived from the other, doesn't mean they both have the same mechanism of action. However, high doses of vit A can be toxic.

Hey sanjose, I don't think Lamarr is the only one linking the former accutane user + vit. A or fish oil to equaling new unexplainable scarring. Other individuals are adamant on the idea that this may have been a cause for scars unrelated to acne to surface. And it's not fear instilling, it's called instilling knowledge that may be helpful to some, whether it's true or not, all we can do is monitor our own bodies.

Spontaneous scarring is documented. It wasn't invented on the acne.org :rolleyes:

Besides, what's wrong with exchanging info about POSSIBLE supplements that may harm collagen on those who used to take accutane? Just because you aren't experiencing it, doesn't mean others aren't! Don't be such a snob. I'm getting tired of your nazi tendencies about what information you think is worthy to be disclosed on here.

Did you know that just because something that is deemed healthy by the "mainstream" may not be so great?

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I love how there is so much conflicting information on this site, and nobody bothers to fact check.

There is one person, his name whom I won't say, tells people to avoid vitamin A because it is basically the same as accutane, and vitamin A will cause scars. This is the same person is telling people not to take fish oil. Same person making wild claims about some rare new spontaneous scarring disease. Then he tells everyone to buy a 750 dollar led kit, with no proof it works on scars.. oh my gosh how do the moderators let this junk keep going. watch i'm probably going to get in trouble now.

....

For the fear instilling person on this website, vitamin A and accutane are not the same thing. Just because one is derived from the other, doesn't mean they both have the same mechanism of action. However, high doses of vit A can be toxic.

Hey sanjose, I don't think Lamarr is the only one linking the former accutane user + vit. A or fish oil to equaling new unexplainable scarring. Other individuals are adamant on the idea that this may have been a cause for scars unrelated to acne to surface. And it's not fear instilling, it's called instilling knowledge that may be helpful to some, whether it's true or not, all we can do is monitor our own bodies.

Spontaneous scarring is documented. It wasn't invented on the acne.org :rolleyes:

Besides, what's wrong with exchanging info about POSSIBLE supplements that may harm collagen on those who used to take accutane? Just because you aren't experiencing it, doesn't mean others aren't! Don't be such a snob. I'm getting tired of your nazi tendencies about what information you think is worthy to be disclosed on here.

Did you know that just because something that is deemed healthy by the "mainstream" may not be so great?

I never said it was created on this site. I said it was discovered in 1918, and there are less than 25 cases in almost 100 yrs. Also you can't make the connection with fish oil and accutane or vitamins or supplements to this disease.

i think it is fine when people state their opinions, but it is different when someone is stating it as medical fact, then everyone follows. not everyone has the intelligence to do their own research. Someone stating something false as medical fact can lead to people getting harmed, taken advantage of, or money down the toilet.

I've been on here sine 2003, I've never had problems with anyone. In fact I always help people to the best of my ability. This site has been a source of great information over the years.

However lately it is turning into science fiction. I don't want this sight to go down the drain. Instead of questioning me. Why don't you ask this person to provide publications that show how common spontaneous scarring disease is. Publications to show fish oil can cause spontaneous scars. And publications to show how a 750 dollar LED system made by some random person helps indented scars. How do you know this LED system is produced under regulation? What if this LED system is the wrong wavelength and causes dimer mutations in DNA leading to cancer. Yes that can very easily occur.

He is endorsing snake oil. It is suspect. If you think i'm a nazi then that is fine, go read my posts over the past 7 years, this is the first time i've ever ever ever been passionate about another user on here. 4 yrs prior to this site, i was a member of voy forums, when that closed most of those members moved here. I never had a problem their either. Ya I don't like this person, this person is giving false info. Also has suspect before and after pics, and endorses a product too strongly.

Just for one second think about this. Think about someone posting something possibly harmful on here. A desperate person, or someone young logs on, and gets false info, does something to their skin and ends up hurting themselves.

Anyways, read the above publication, it is a good read on skin needling.

Peace Out Your Nazi

Edited by sanjoseskin

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I will tell u the info that lamarr gave me was the only thing that helped, and has continued helping so far. the doctors knew squat about it, when i went to them.

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I will tell u the info that lamarr gave me was the only thing that helped, and has continued helping so far. the doctors knew squat about it, when i went to them.

So you have this disease? can you tell us a little about your spontaneous scars. What did you do that helped?

I'm willing to listen, I could possibly be wrong.

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like lamarr told me, i stopped all fish oil, flaxseed oil and any vitamin A i was taking. it has completely stopped now.

glad to hear u r open to listening.

lamarr has helped lots of people here with his time and info that he has researched, and has gained nothing (monetary or otherwise from it)

he is a good guy! :)

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I said i wouldn't post here anymore because of people such as sanjoeskin. But i was directed towards this thread via MSN. So let me get this straight you think i am trying to make money by pushing anti histamines and telling people to stop taking vitamin A and other oils?

Read all my threads you total k**b jockey. I have never once said that the LED pannels will stop this scarring. I have suffered from accutane side effects for about 3 years now, amungst these side effects was something which I DISCOVERED was AMVC, I took my findings to DR TONY CHU (world famous dermatologist) and he had NEVER heard of it. When i showed him my findings what was the first thing he said? He said oh boy this sounds and looks EXACTLY like what you have....

I have DOZENS of people messaging me all the time, because guess what? they have success with the dermaroller/needling/led protocal i have written up. Not only that, but i have spoken to aproximately 10 people who have told me about their AMVC, i personally note that when i take flaxseed, vitamin a or ANY form of OMEGA 3 fatty acid, my AMVC (ACCUTANE INDUCED) comes back.

I found that as i questioned people their was a common trend in that shortly before this scarring occurs, they have nearly always taken something that either A) contains lots of vitamin A or B) contains alot of omega 3. Of which cod liver oil contains both.

SO YES I RECOMMEND PEOPLE STOP TAKING THEM WHEN THEY HAVE 1) TAKEN ACCUTANE IN THE PAST AND 2) ARE SUFFERING FROM THE SAME SPONTANEOUS SCARRING I HAVE PERSONALLY SUFFERED FROM.

Guess what? every time i tell someone to do the above mentioned things, it STOPS. SO go and read more of my threads then come back and say sorry. The led units i recommend as they have also PERSONALLY helped me, i also recommend other led units such as the baby quasar.

I hate hate hate people like you who read a few of my posts and come to your own conclusions. If the mod doesn't give you a warning for personally attacking me then there is something seriously wrong with the newer mods round here.

I share my findings on here, then you get dousch bags like you who read litrature and base everything on that. I base my findings on litrature and hours of personal interaction with people in the same situation as me.

You stating it is a rare disease with 25 cases in nearly 100 years is THE most MORONIC thing i have ever heard. do your SERIOUSLY think this gets reported anywhere near as often as it happens?

The first thing a doctor is gonna say to someone who presents with this (especially if they have taken accutane) is that they are imagining it and it isn't possible. I know this as i have had derms tell me this, i was just bery lucky that DR CHU was open to the possibility and took a close look and agreed.

I will save this reply just incase a mod deletes it and keep re posting it until i am banned.

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Lamarr has done nothing but help people on this site, he took the time to personally help me with my problems and guess what, since following his recommendations I got the results he told me I would.

He recommended me to take piriton anti histamine, how exactly would he benefit from me purchasing an over the counter product from my local chemist? Or from getting some to buy LED lights from America when he lives in the UK? He has never discouraged anyone from buying the same or similar products from anywhere else.

If you don't agree with what someone is saying that is fine, after all we are all here for the same thing right? We are trying to find the best solutions to our problems. You don't have to bad mouth someone.

Lamaar has had great results from doing his own research, he found what worked for him and tried to help others through sharing his experiences, how exactly can you criticise that?

I for one hope he doesn't take offence to your posts and keeps posting here, as he is a valued member of this community and I hope to call on his advice again at some point.

Edited by goodlife

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sanjose,

if memory serves me fernandez was referring to topical application, bid, of both

vitamin a and vitamin c prior to rolling, a 1-3 month prepatory period.

_______________________________________________________________

generally speaking, whenever i read any post about procedure, or "I do this" and

"this is working for me", i try to verify with other posts and true "experts" in the

field, with what their doing..... a prime example are LED's. A member touted

they were great for wound healing, collagen, etc....... so i read mountains, and

mountains, and mountains of information saying the same thing, from researchers

at NASA and universities. So I started using them.

I so appreciate opinions of others here, and the help they have given me, as

well as countless researchers in the field. I have even found opposing views

from researchers on the exact same subject, choosing myself which view to

take (vitamin a for example, one saying use it twice a day and the other saying

be careful with overuse, it can cause scarring if overused).

I just want to get rid of my scars, I'm sick of them. Slowly their fading with

what I am doing.

best wishes to all

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(Lamarr, I just PM'ed you with this e-mail. I decided to post it for all to see. I'm also adding another introduction paragraph, separated with asterisks, and another sentence to the second paragraph, also with an asterisk).

*Added paragraph: I am a nurse in the U.S. I've seen spontaneous legions, once, from a very common antiobiotic. In this person's situation, the legions were life threatening. Fortunately, this individual survived. I believe, however, due to what a doctor told me, will be present for the rest of his life, in some form. Any doctors or other health-care professionals know the condition I'm referring to? I was actually watching television last night and saw a a commercial, done by a law-firm, for people afflicted by this disease, and cause by very widely used medications.

I bring this up as an example justifying the validity of Lamarr's referenced "spontaneous scarring." I appologize for not referencing with the exact title, AMVC?, I don't have all day to write a proper journal article. I suppose that is what would be needed, however, to appease this angry SanJoseSkin character.

I also want to say that I'm a long-time lurker. I've found great knowledge for the treatment of my acne and acne-scarring on these boards.*

Subject of PM to Lamarr: "Everyone who is in a position of leadership..."

.. Is always criticized! Don't worry about this SanJose character. Because you are in a position of authority -- due to your knowledge and inkling to share that knowledge; whether the knowledge is real or imagined -- you will receive criticism. This is due to the fact that you are gaining followers, and this sometimes angers people who are not very good at being followers. *I also think this is mainly due to the fact that you are just voicing yourself and putting an opinion out there. This takes guts, and knowledge for people to believe you, and immediately puts you in a position of authority (simply because you are a main voice being heard).

Anywho, as you can tell, I'm a lurker. I've lurked for long and short stretches of time for a few years now. There are times when I don't come on these boards for 6+ months at a time.

I'm a nurse and was working in a setting that afforded me some time to watch television and peruse my laptop last night. I was vigorously perusing this board and reading your posts, Lamarr, as they piqued my interest due to their seeming thoroughness and usefulness. I've thought about derma-rolling for some time now and ordered one last night! (I also happened to have seen a law-firm commercial while watching television last night, see above paragraph on spontaneous legions).

Because of your posts, I'm thinking about Terproline. I also live a healthy, active lifestyle here in the Rocky Mountain region in the U.S. I've taken a multi-vitamin and flax/seed or fish oil for many months now; maybe almost a year. I haven't noticed any spontaneous scarring for me, but certainly believe that this can happen. *I TOOK ACCUTANE many years ago, and in a fit of depression and anxiety, I took a VERY abrasive pad and rubbed it hard on my face where a lot of acne and scarring were present. I believe this two things gave me moderate rolling scars.

I've taken this multi and flax just for health. I'm now thinking maybe this is good, because I already have my prep for derma-rolling out of the way?

Anywho, I'd love to hear your advice on my topicals. Do you think that I should drop my flax? Can vita a help as a prep for derma-rolling?

Thanks for your knowledge. I'm sorry that you're dealing with the ramifications of leadership, but learn a lesson from this! I think you're going to continue to be a leader in your life, so the sooner the better.

Cheers!

P.S. Sorry for the emphatic, discombobulated post. I've observed, though, that such is the way for people on these boards, due to our excitement! (And the person nature of what we deal with). I like to write, so my instinct is telling me to edit the hell out of this, but WHATEVER. =D

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In response to this nurse. Spontaneous lesions from antibiotic use are not the same as this disease. This is a what is called an allergic reaction. Allergic breakouts on the skin due to antibiotic use is very common, and yes allergic response to antibiotics can lead to death. ALso yeast infections from antiobitic use are common. Don't confuse an allergic response, to this disease.

Edited by sanjoseskin

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Actually, no, SanJose. Although I can understand you thinking I am talking about an allergic reaction, I am talking about a disease. Here's the definition of a disease:

A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.

Cheers.

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I have a question to those who suffer from spontaneous scarring. Do you just have it occur on your face and nowhere else after taking the vitamins? If so I wonder why you wouldn't find scarring on any part of your skin as how would the vitamins know to differentiate to your face? Now if there were some acne present on your face and the vitamin caused the scarring that would make sense. Also I know fish oil is supposed to help inflammation, maybe once the inflammation was reduced in the face you saw the pitted scars? I'm sure you will disagree with that, but really it is hard to believe fish oil could hurt someone and I understand those skeptical, I don't think anyone wants to really personally attack another here, just voice opinions.

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Sanjose, is your main disagreement with lamaar his reccomendation to stay off Vitamin A, fish oils, and flax seed if a person has been on accutane?

I'm just curious. I've never been on accutane but I've found lamarr's dermarolling information very helpful.

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I have a question to those who suffer from spontaneous scarring. Do you just have it occur on your face and nowhere else after taking the vitamins? If so I wonder why you wouldn't find scarring on any part of your skin as how would the vitamins know to differentiate to your face? Now if there were some acne present on your face and the vitamin caused the scarring that would make sense. Also I know fish oil is supposed to help inflammation, maybe once the inflammation was reduced in the face you saw the pitted scars? I'm sure you will disagree with that, but really it is hard to believe fish oil could hurt someone and I understand those skeptical, I don't think anyone wants to really personally attack another here, just voice opinions.

AMVC scarring only affects the face.

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I did read that it only affect the face, however there is nothing that states why except genetics. So, I wonder how taking fish oil would weaken the skin so much after accutane to cause spontaneous scars, yet only on the face. I guess the vitamin would have to affect your genes in some way, if that is even possible. It's just odd that not everyone has this after taking accutane and fish oil if it really does weaken the skin that much. It is kind of like those thay say vaccines cause autism, maybe you were already susceptible to it with your genes and it weakened you, yet I don't think there can by any direct correlation from fish oil to this factually rare disease.

Fish oil does have benefits, but for those who find it hurts them definitely stop taking it. I think allergic reactions can happen with anything, so the histamine blocker makes sense to use.

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Sanjose, is your main disagreement with lamaar his reccomendation to stay off Vitamin A, fish oils, and flax seed if a person has been on accutane?

I'm just curious. I've never been on accutane but I've found lamarr's dermarolling information very helpful.

My main disagreement is this. AMVC is a very rare disease with a pathology that has never been linked to accutane, vit A, flaxseed, fish oil, or other omega-3's.

If you are going to make the link between AMVC accutane and fish oil, and you are going to state that as medical fact, then you migth be worthy of a nobel prize.

Look I just want him to show proof that omega-3 causes this disease. Is it so hard to provide proof other than "i've talked to dozons of people online." Sorry that is not proof.

You also have to understand, the american diet is rich in omega-6. so the fish tablets you are taking, are probably having very little effect, because omega-6 and omega-3 compete in the body, and omega-3 ususally loses.

He has said he has done hours of research, fine I believe you, then produce evidence we can read, something that links omega-3 to this disease.

Look i'm going to apolgize, I don't think he is a bad guy. If he is truely here to help people, then that is fantastic. If people are doing what he says, and they like it, then stick with it. However, strong claims about fish oil and this disease are pretty far fetched. Just provide me some literature to read. Saying that you have talked to dozens of people doesn't cut it.

I could sit here and talk to dozens of people who are convinced they have heart disease, and are suffering from heart murmors, and heart attacks. when the truth is every single one of them probably have acid reflex.

Get my pt? My point is, we don't know the the details or the full scope of the circumstances revolving around these people online who think they have this disease now. What they perceive as this disease could simply not be the case.

Look, I don't go around telling people this. I had a rare form of cancer, about 1 in 10 million people get it. If I talk to other people with this cancer, there is a strong possibly we can find commonalities. For example, we all like whip cream on our starbuck fraps. I cannot then make a link to whip cream on my fraps, to my disease, just because we all share this commonality.

I also took accutane, and I also use carlson's fish oil. And flaxseed. If I find other people with my type of cancer who conform to this combination, I can not make wild claims that my cancer was sparked by this.

I dunno, I give up. I guess people are free to do what they want.

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Thanks for the explanation.

I understand why you don't want people following another person's advice if there is no proof. I think it's good that you question it and ask for some evidence.

But even if there is no proof, what's the big deal if people don't take omega3s? There seems to be little harm in following lamarrs advice even if he is wrong.

It's true that fish oils have benefits. But are the benefits so great that it's not worth stopping their use to try and prevent acne scars? Lamarr said it worked for him and he's sharing that experience with other people. If you find that stopping omega 3 intake doesn't stop your acne scarring then start using them again. Everyone is different and needs to do some experimentation.

This seems to be a big to-do over nothing.

Edited by pogo

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