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SongSungBlue

Latest in solving pigmentation?

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Can anyone say what's great for solving dark/red spots aside from the bleaching creams?

Are photo-facials trustworthy over time?

I've done my research, but the internet is always garbage-in/garbage-out.

Thanks and Best.

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Can anyone say what's great for solving dark/red spots aside from the bleaching creams?

Are photo-facials trustworthy over time?

I've done my research, but the internet is always garbage-in/garbage-out.

Thanks and Best.

Clarify a little on your question, are you saying your spots are red but dark in intensity, or do you have a combination of both dark meaning brown, and also seperate red spots?

For red spots, bleaching cream makes the spot WORSE. To get rid of red spots, do yourself a favor, save 500 bucks or less for spot treatments, and do a full face Vbeam treatment, and your red spots are gone for good. Vbeam may also help for dark brown spots.

However, if the spots are dark brown and caused by hyperpigmentation then bleaching creams with correct use, over time, usually a few months, will lighten the area. You can get over-the-counter bleaching creams at 2-3 percent hydroquinone. This may or may not lighten the area. Or you can get a prescription for a compound bleaching cream, this pharmacy compounded cream included hydroquinone 4-10 percent depening on doctors orders, retin-A, and a topical corticosteroid usually desown, all mixed together. This combo dramatically speeds up skin whitening in contrast to hydroquinone used alone.

Edited by sanjoseskin

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Hey Sanjose,

Dr Rullan suggested that I get VBeam done immediately following my subcision. Have you had it done before? Does it require more than one treatment? Is there any downtime? A little bit of downtime probably won't matter if I am getting subcision done the same day. I am going to wait at least 7 days for the bruising to go away.

He quoted me $300. I was initially thinking about not getting it done since the red marks will eventually fade away but am having second thoughts. I still have a lot of red marks, and one permanent red dot(possibly broken capillary) that it may help on.

Edited by AcnePwns

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Hey Sanjose,

Dr Rullan suggested that I get VBeam done immediately following my subcision. Have you had it done before? Does it require more than one treatment? Is there any downtime? A little bit of downtime probably won't matter if I am getting subcision done the same day. I am going to wait at least 7 days for the bruising to go away.

He quoted me $300. I was initially thinking about not getting it done since the red marks will eventually fade away but am having second thoughts. I still have a lot of red marks, and one permanent red dot(possibly broken capillary) that it may help on.

Hello,

Well let me start off by saying that I am not a doctor, and the following is completely my opinion based on my current knowledge of how Vbeam works. Secondly, Dr. Rullan is a great doctor, so if he doesn't see any conflicts with getting Vbeam done after in conjuction with subcision, then most likely you will be fine. On that note, if you are asking my opinion then this is what I think...

First, it is very interesting you ask this question about getting Vbeam done the same day of sub but AFTER sub. I have thought about this in the past, and I concluded no. I will explain why I think this. Before I get into this, i'm confused...are you thinking about Vbeam for current redness from acne scars, or is Dr. Rullan reccomending Vbeam as a way to prevent post sub brusing and possible pigment issues?

Ok let me get into the science as I understand it, I may be totally wrong on this, so I suggest you ask Dr.Rullan or look the info up yourself to verify. My understanding is that Vbeam laser also known as Pulsed Dye laser is actually a very concentrated intense pulse of light at a specific wavelength. The Vbeam laser is attracted to blood, especially pigments in blood. So lets use broken capillaries as an example. You have broken capillaries on your nose, you expose it to Vbeam, the light is attracted to the blood, this futher causes damage and collapse of the capillary epithialies cells. Epithialial just means the outer covering cells of capillaries, so basically the walls of the veins or capillaries you are treating collapse. Next what happens is your body absorbs the blood in the capillaries and the collapsed/damaged capillary tissue. Boom your capillaries are gone, or any other redness issue you are treating.

Okay so now lets turn to sub. Sub is basically using an 18g Admix Nokor needle to go under the scar, and physically tear apart the scar fibers holding the scar down. What immediately occurs is a response where blood fills the area where you just performed sub, the blood basically pools there. What role does this blood play? A huge and vital role. You want pool of blood to stay there as long as possible. Why? Well because this pool of blood serves basically two vital purposes. One it physically acts as a barrier to prevent the scar fibers from just re-attaching again. It also stimulates fibroblast/collagen growth. So the longer the blood is under your scar during initial healing, the less fiber re-attachment you get, thus more collagen keeps filling in the space, resulting in better "plumping." If you get sub done today, and the swelling goes away tomorrow, you can bet for sure the fibers basically just re-attached overnight.

Ok so now, If Vbeam is attracted to blood, and causes your body to absorb blood, yet a pool of blood is vital to recieve maximum collagen growth with sub, doesn't that seem counter intuitive?

Now let me answer your other questions. Have I had Vbeam before, yes I have. I think it's a marvelous laser. I've had red-marks that never wanted to go away, with one treatment they were gone.

Does it require more than one treatment? Yes and No, it depends. Severe problems require several treatments. The second factor in determing how many treatments you need is the laser setting, or intensity of the light pulse. At normal settings, yes you probably would need more than one treatment. You crank up the light, and you can get great results with probably fewer or even 1 treatment.

So why not crank up the intensity? Well because Vbeam, at high intensity pulse, creates something called "purpura," this phenomenom is basically a side effect. It results in dark purple brusing. The purpura might go away in 1 week, or it might last up to 3 months. I had purpura last up to a month in some spots that were treated with intense setting. Not totally certain but I think that Candela, who are the makers of Vbeam, have released a newer updated version of Vbeam. This updated version supposedly has decreased or elimated the possiblity of purpura occuring. At the time I was treated, Rullans office had the older Vbeam because I did get purpura. If you are interested in a very high intensity treatment, I would call and find out if they have the newer updated Vbeam, if available. If high intensity is not an issue for you, then purpura is thus not an issue. On that note, if you get a normal intensity setting, then the downtime is virtually none. You might be slightly pink like you got a good sun exposure, but thats all.

I would probably get Vbeam done a month after sub. I also wouldn't get it b4 my sub treatment, because if you have any long extended brusing/color changes from sub, it would be nice to zap these with the laser afterwards. It sounds like you have normal redness from acne scars, I honestly think that if you get it done after you heal from sub, at a normal setting, you will see satisfactory results without the down time, meaning you can go back to school or work or whatever.

Everything I just explained is my personal understanding of how sub and Vbeam work. I may be totally wrong, however I've been treating my acne scars for 10 yrs now, and I try to do as much research as I can.

Anyways I hope I was helpfull. Think about what I said, start doing your own research, then make up your mind.

I think you might have said you are a student yes? If so most universities offer students full access to reputible online journals, medical journals, publications, studies etc. Don't google your info, log onto your school account and research this stuff through real reputable sources available only to students, profesors, researchers and doctors. While the general public has no access or has to pay for the full publication. Thats where I try to read up on most of my research.

Anyways take care

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But doesn't the V Beam cause bruising and swelling? I was expecting subcision and V Beam in conjunction to cause even more bruising and swelling than just subcision alone.

So the longer you stay bruised and swelled up from subcision, the better the results? Meaning that I should not use ice packs or arnica to diminish the swelling for a shorter downtime?

I am planning on getting V Beam in between normal and high setting. I am using it for the post acne red marks and some other red irritated spots on my skin. It is NOT for hyperpigmentation problems after subcision. I have a good 10 days to recover and I want the swelling to be 90% gone by that time.

I am planning on getting three subcisions done by the beginning of Summer, which would not give me time in between to get V Beam done. That is why I want to get it done immediately following subcision. Hopefully it will not make subcision less effective.

This is a thread of a member who had subcision and V Beam done during the same day:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Subcision...l&p=2038952

Unfortunately, he did not post his results after he recovered.

BTW, do you know if the Nd:YAG laser works similarly to the V Beam? I found an article from my school's ProQuest that stated that Dr. Obagi has had more success pairing YAG laser along with subcision than just subcision alone.

Edited by AcnePwns

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But doesn't the V Beam cause bruising and swelling? I was expecting subcision and V Beam in conjunction to cause even more bruising and swelling than just subcision alone.

So the longer you stay bruised and swelled up from subcision, the better the results? Meaning that I should not use ice packs or arnica to diminish the swelling for a shorter downtime?

I am planning on getting V Beam in between normal and high setting. I am using it for the post acne red marks and some other red irritated spots on my skin. It is NOT for hyperpigmentation problems after subcision. I have a good 10 days to recover and I want the swelling to be 90% gone by that time.

I am planning on getting three subcisions done by the beginning of Summer, which would not give me time in between to get V Beam done. That is why I want to get it done immediately following subcision. Hopefully it will not make subcision less effective.

This is a thread of a member who had subcision and V Beam done during the same day:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Subcision...l&p=2038952

Unfortunately, he did not post his results after he recovered.

BTW, do you know if the Nd:YAG laser works similarly to the V Beam? I found an article from my school's ProQuest that stated that Dr. Obagi has had more success pairing YAG laser along with subcision than just subcision alone.

Yes Vbeam causes brusing, called Purpura. Swelling with vbeam, I'm not sure about. I never experienced it. Remember Vbeam is almost a no downtime procedure, most people can have it done today and return back to work tomorrow.

ice packs, lol i'm sure you can use ice packs. but comparing ice packs to vbeam is different.

I don't think there is any scientific evidence saying vbeam with sub is bad. It is just a conclusion I came to on my own as a normal scar patient who has done my own individual researching about the two procedures seperatly. I'm sure you will be just fine if the doctor said it's okay. If you have any doubt in your head, why not just get vbeam like a month later? Like i said vbeam has virtually no down time, unless you get super high settings with purpura.

If you decide you want Vbeam done, but not at the same time as sub, but the only thing holding you back is recovery time then I think you should do this. Call Candela, makers of Vbeam. Find out if there truely is such a thing as a "new purpura free" vbeam. If so, this solves your problem! Then you can find a doctor who has the purpura free vbeam, you can get vbeam on a friday and be healed by monday class morning. Heck prolly even friday night.

you also asked if you stay bruised and swollen longer will you get better results. i think the key is the blood pooling lasting longer. This is based on a subcision article I read years ago. i think some doctors even inject a filler at the same time as sub to increase plumping and prevent re-attachment of scar tissue. Anyway Brusing can persist superficially, while the blood pool is gone, right? Brusing from sub usually goes away in a couple weeks, but transient brusing might be there even after the swelling and blood goes away.

I'm starting to worry i might be giving you wrong info based upon my own findings, I really do think the best source is your doctor, and luckily you are going to a pretty good one.

You also mentioned the Nd:Yag, I've never had any experience with it. However, if that article sounds promising then you might want to consider that an option. I think obaji works out of beverly hills, so pretty close to you I think.

i have about 10 days off from school also, where do you go?

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I actually remember Dr. Obagi being from Pennsylvania when I read that article hours ago.

I'm pretty sure I will get subcision and V Beam done the same day since I have 10 full days to recover. I also want a somewhat aggressive V Beam treatment, but not aggressive enough to cause any purpura that will last over a week. I was also able to negotiate to get the entire package for $1,400, which is pretty reasonable IMO.

I just go to local community colleges in SD, but will transfer to SDSU next Spring or Fall (stupid budget cuts). I only have 10 days off because of the President's Day holiday. I thought that I should take advantage of this time and try to get my skins fixed as much as possible. What school do you go to?

It's ridiculous how much money us college students are blowing away for acne scar treatment! I worked my butt off though in 08-09 so luckily I can afford my treatment.

Do you recommend me taking arnica before and after my treatment to reduce downtime and bruising/swelling? I'm a bit confused on whether the bruising is a good thing or not.

Edited by AcnePwns

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I actually remember Dr. Obagi being from Pennsylvania when I read that article hours ago.

I'm pretty sure I will get subcision and V Beam done the same day since I have 10 full days to recover. I also want a somewhat aggressive V Beam treatment, but not aggressive enough to cause any purpura that will last over a week. I was also able to negotiate to get the entire package for $1,400, which is pretty reasonable IMO.

I just go to local community colleges in SD, but will transfer to SDSU next Spring or Fall (stupid budget cuts). I only have 10 days off because of the President's Day holiday. I thought that I should take advantage of this time and try to get my skins fixed as much as possible. What school do you go to?

It's ridiculous how much money us college students are blowing away for acne scar treatment! I worked my butt off though in 08-09 so luckily I can afford my treatment.

Do you recommend me taking arnica before and after my treatment to reduce downtime and bruising/swelling? I'm a bit confused on whether the bruising is a good thing or not.

I have no idea what arnica is, I personally have used Bromelain in the past, two weeks prior to my lasers/chemical peels to reduce swelling. I don't know if it works, it's one of those herbal category things I guess. Bromelain is actually pinapple root enzyme I think.

I think bruising and blood pooling is important, ask the dr i'm sure he knows.

How did you negotiate??? what does your entire package include. I always get embarassed with doctors trying to negatiate prices, Usually just accept what they tell me.

I go to UCLA, but i'm glad to hear you are transfering to the state system instead. UC system has too many budget cuts, over crowding, teachers who only do research and throw the class responsibility on graduate student TA's. State system does not have an emphasis on research, so you get good quality 1-1 time with the professor whenever you want.

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I actually remember Dr. Obagi being from Pennsylvania when I read that article hours ago.

I'm pretty sure I will get subcision and V Beam done the same day since I have 10 full days to recover. I also want a somewhat aggressive V Beam treatment, but not aggressive enough to cause any purpura that will last over a week. I was also able to negotiate to get the entire package for $1,400, which is pretty reasonable IMO.

I just go to local community colleges in SD, but will transfer to SDSU next Spring or Fall (stupid budget cuts). I only have 10 days off because of the President's Day holiday. I thought that I should take advantage of this time and try to get my skins fixed as much as possible. What school do you go to?

It's ridiculous how much money us college students are blowing away for acne scar treatment! I worked my butt off though in 08-09 so luckily I can afford my treatment.

Do you recommend me taking arnica before and after my treatment to reduce downtime and bruising/swelling? I'm a bit confused on whether the bruising is a good thing or not.

Ok I found that article you were speaking of. To clear up the Obagi confusion. The study you read was done by Dr. Suzan Obagi. This is not the same "famous" obagi of beverly hills. The famous obagi is the guy who has the Obagi skin care line, Obaji medical line, and the ever more popular Obagi Blue Peel, which is basically a TCA peal with blue dye. most people when they hear obagi in connection to dermatology think of this dude, thats what I thought. I was even more shocked that he cared about acne scars to do a real study like that. To me he is a beverly hills useless MD.

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It actually wasn't much negotiating, I just asked if I can add the V Beam to the subcisions package for an additional $200.

It will include 3 subcisions and 1 V Beam for $1,400. My goal is to be somewhat content with my skin by this Summer.

Dr. Rullan's assistant recommended me buying arnica montana pills. It is common in the plastic surgery world as it reduces recovery time, bruising, and swelling. I don't know if I want to use it though. Unfortunately, there are no studies on the effects of arnica or bromelain on the end result of subcision. So while it may reduce downtime, it may restrict some improvement. I do have 10 days to recover but V-day is just days after my treatment and I would like to take the gf out without looking like a monster haha.

Decisions, decisions...

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I mean to say I have both red and brown spots. The reds have gone from dark to lighter over a course of a few months, so there is progress. Overall, in the past few weeks especially, I've made my best progress, particularly because I have been rampaging on heavy supplements, like mutlivitamins, zinc, grape seed extract and fish oil. It really couldn't be working better.

I have learned that dealing with skin problems is a fight that needs to be taken both internally and externally. I now feel safe to use castor oil, I will see how that goes... So for the sake of saving money, I shall say no to photo facials, at least for the time being.

Thank you all for your responses.

Best,

Matt

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I mean to say I have both red and brown spots. The reds have gone from dark to lighter over a course of a few months, so there is progress. Overall, in the past few weeks especially, I've made my best progress, particularly because I have been rampaging on heavy supplements, like mutlivitamins, zinc, grape seed extract and fish oil. It really couldn't be working better.

I have learned that dealing with skin problems is a fight that needs to be taken both internally and externally. I now feel safe to use castor oil, I will see how that goes... So for the sake of saving money, I shall say no to photo facials, at least for the time being.

Thank you all for your responses.

Best,

Matt

I think if you want to go the laser route, and just be done with it. Get Vbeam for red spots, and IPL for brown spots. Both relatively safe procedures.

Thats basically your answer.

If you wan't to play with topicals, I dunno I guess you can try retin-A and hydroquinone for the brown spots, but then this makes red spots worse. Or you can try microderms, but this makes red spots worse too. I think you are just going to go in circles with topicals.

See a derm, get their opinion, this is a relatively easily problem to resolve, you shouldn't stress over this, there are solutions.

Take Care.

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I mean to say I have both red and brown spots. The reds have gone from dark to lighter over a course of a few months, so there is progress. Overall, in the past few weeks especially, I've made my best progress, particularly because I have been rampaging on heavy supplements, like mutlivitamins, zinc, grape seed extract and fish oil. It really couldn't be working better.

I have learned that dealing with skin problems is a fight that needs to be taken both internally and externally. I now feel safe to use castor oil, I will see how that goes... So for the sake of saving money, I shall say no to photo facials, at least for the time being.

Thank you all for your responses.

Best,

Matt

Finally this thread is moved...

Anyways, if red and brown marks are your only problems, I wouldnt worry about it too much. Since money is an issue for you, I suggest you to just use Retin-A or some AHA such as GA or ACV as a topical.

I also recommend at home GA peels. There's DIY thread here somewhere.

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