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Skiz

Every single time I have fructose (or fruit in general)

This is really pissing me off. First (about like 5 months ago) I thought it was only apples, or cherries, but now it is almost every fruit. Every single time I eat it (eg. 1 apple, half cup of cherries, some chunks of cantelope, grapes, strawberries, and blue berries) my forehead is a mess with under the skin pustules by THAT night. If I completely eliminate all fruit, it completely disappears (i've been weeks to a month without by doing this. But it just seems so unhealthy in the long term, so i'll have a friggen piece of fruit and it happens again and again. At first I thought it was candida, but I can eat all the white rice and pasta in the world and it won't have any effect whatsoever. Normal sugar doesn't have a huge effect either (maybe a few spots here or there, but nothing like the deep stuf on the forehead).

The only fruit that doesn't make it go crazy is pineapple fwiw.

I mean, this happens every time. WTF is wrong with me? It would be one thing if it was just overindulging, but I mean one medium sized apple will do it, same with a handful of cherries.

I was thinking about it being fructose intolerance, but it seems like one of the main symptoms is constant diarrhea and stuff which I never have (usually the opposite, but some insoluble fiber helps that out alot).

Edit: if it helps, it's almost always directly on the forehead area above the eyebrows (so from the eyebrows all the way to the top of my head)

Edited by Skiz

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You might have problems absorbing carbs/fructose. Do you get enough light? have enough quality sleep? Many things affect how we handle carbs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12638695 => exposure to bright light during the day helps carb absorption during evening meal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14535358 => exposure to dim light during the night helps carb absorption during evening meal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11336160 => carb malabsorption and fructose.

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The only fruit that doesn't make it go crazy is pineapple fwiw.

Bingo. Pineapple is probably the only fruit you eat that has a fructose/glucose ratio very close to 1.

I mean, this happens every time. WTF is wrong with me?

Not much, you're just a perfectly tuned example of the root mechanism of acne.

I was thinking about it being fructose intolerance, but it seems like one of the main symptoms is constant diarrhea and stuff which I never have (usually the opposite, but some insoluble fiber helps that out alot).
If you were getting the equivalent amount of fructose from the sources most people do (caffeineated soft drinks), you would get the diarrhea.

So, here's the story (wacky random guy from Internet says):

The gut can efficiently digest fructose when there's a matching glucose molecule. They have to get paired up one by one to efficiently go through the gut lining. When you eat things with a high fructose/glucose ratio (like a sweet apple, for example, a bunch of "extra" fructose molecules don't get absorbed. So then, the fructose falls into the clutches of some varieties of bacteria in your gut.

The bacteria is REALLY happy to get that fructose, and goes nuts. One side effect is that that bacteria then interferes with the digestion of some nutrients that would normally help prevent acne in "normal" people. Most importantly, they interfere with tryptophan (but also zinc) absorption.

You need tryptophan to create melatonin; your body can't manufacture it, it has to come from your food supply. A long and large nightly surge of melatonin from the pineal gland (which turns tryptophan into melatonin every night) prevents acne because melatonin: is anti-androgenic, slows cell division, is directly anti-oxidant, stimulates cells to produce the powerful anti-oxidant zinc superoxide dismutase (but not if you can't digest zinc!), and restores insulin sensitivity.

Did we really evolve to not be able to eat fruits? No, but two things have changed since evolution designed our genes. First, we spent the last couple hundred years breeding fruits to have ever-higher fructose/glucose ratios so they'll taste sweeter and sell more. Second, we don't live in bright outdoor light every day any more. Why does that matter? Because living in dim light slows down your digestive tract and exacerbates carbohydrate (superset that includes fructose) malabsorption.

So, if you monitor closely, you'll find that if you've been spending a couple of days out in bright light all day (with your eyes exposed, not covered up with hat/sunglasses), you'll suddenly be able to eat that apple and not have a breakout. This is why people go nuts about food and acne. If they pay attention, they know food causes acne, but if they really pay attention, they also know that sometimes food doesn't cause acne.

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The only fruit that doesn't make it go crazy is pineapple fwiw.

Bingo. Pineapple is probably the only fruit you eat that has a fructose/glucose ratio very close to 1.

I mean, this happens every time. WTF is wrong with me?

Not much, you're just a perfectly tuned example of the root mechanism of acne.

I was thinking about it being fructose intolerance, but it seems like one of the main symptoms is constant diarrhea and stuff which I never have (usually the opposite, but some insoluble fiber helps that out alot).
If you were getting the equivalent amount of fructose from the sources most people do (caffeineated soft drinks), you would get the diarrhea.

So, here's the story (wacky random guy from Internet says):

The gut can efficiently digest fructose when there's a matching glucose molecule. They have to get paired up one by one to efficiently go through the gut lining. When you eat things with a high fructose/glucose ratio (like a sweet apple, for example, a bunch of "extra" fructose molecules don't get absorbed. So then, the fructose falls into the clutches of some varieties of bacteria in your gut.

The bacteria is REALLY happy to get that fructose, and goes nuts. One side effect is that that bacteria then interferes with the digestion of some nutrients that would normally help prevent acne in "normal" people. Most importantly, they interfere with tryptophan (but also zinc) absorption.

You need tryptophan to create melatonin; your body can't manufacture it, it has to come from your food supply. A long and large nightly surge of melatonin from the pineal gland (which turns tryptophan into melatonin every night) prevents acne because melatonin: is anti-androgenic, slows cell division, is directly anti-oxidant, stimulates cells to produce the powerful anti-oxidant zinc superoxide dismutase (but not if you can't digest zinc!), and restores insulin sensitivity.

Did we really evolve to not be able to eat fruits? No, but two things have changed since evolution designed our genes. First, we spent the last couple hundred years breeding fruits to have ever-higher fructose/glucose ratios so they'll taste sweeter and sell more. Second, we don't live in bright outdoor light every day any more. Why does that matter? Because living in dim light slows down your digestive tract and exacerbates carbohydrate (superset that includes fructose) malabsorption.

So, if you monitor closely, you'll find that if you've been spending a couple of days out in bright light all day (with your eyes exposed, not covered up with hat/sunglasses), you'll suddenly be able to eat that apple and not have a breakout. This is why people go nuts about food and acne. If they pay attention, they know food causes acne, but if they really pay attention, they also know that sometimes food doesn't cause acne.

Just wanted to say thanks by the way. Since i've known about my problem for awhile, i've been reading all of your posts so i'm probably one of your biggest readers on these boards, lol. So far i've blacked out my room, so I can finally get a good nights sleep. I admittedly still need to experiment with the daylight thing, but it's tough right now as it's freezing out. Since you say the eye light is important, do you think it's possible to replicate the results by just sitting next to an open window as much as possible? I really want to try this since whenever I eat most fruit it is like clockwork (a matter of hours before pustules appear, same spot every time), so i'd be a perfect test subject for you and your theory. And yeah, the dim light thing was/is definitely a problem with me, being in class and all, along with the tendency to avoid outside when you have acne (which leads to forms of depression furthering the problem).

I can't remember if you covered this in a previous thread, but have you every tried adding glucose powder with high fructose foods?

Also, is there a main online reference you use to determine the glucose:fructose ratio (in fruits mostly)? I thought I remember examining one awhile ago, but I can't seem to pull it up any more. I found a general one but i'm looking more towards the cherries and berries group as well.

Edited by Skiz

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I just found a decent one I think.

http://www.reducetriglycerides.com/reader_...ctose_fruit.htm

The only thing that confuses a little is cherries, since they are generally one of the better ones with more glucose than fructose, and they seem to give me alot of problems as well. Though the ones i've used are called red pie cherries, so it may have a different profile than the typical ones they are showing.

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I agree that fructose should be balanced, but sweet potatoes are balanced:

Glucose

844

mg

Fructose

752

mg

(from nutrition data). I don't think that sweet potatoes will cause you a problem in that sense.

This ratio is taken into account (along with other things) in the inflammation factor of nutritiondata.com so you might want to look into that. If you expand the carbs tab you can see the content of each sugar type.

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Wow.... I was never aware of that glucose/fructose ratio theory. Good info, Im gonna have to look that up a little more

so you want things with a 1/1 ratio or HIGHER glucose content then fructose content?

Gotta say that Im surprised that pineapple is your ONLY non-issue fruit since that is a high glycemic one.

Edited by DeAntonio

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The only fruit that doesn't make it go crazy is pineapple fwiw.

Bingo. Pineapple is probably the only fruit you eat that has a fructose/glucose ratio very close to 1.

I mean, this happens every time. WTF is wrong with me?

Not much, you're just a perfectly tuned example of the root mechanism of acne.

I was thinking about it being fructose intolerance, but it seems like one of the main symptoms is constant diarrhea and stuff which I never have (usually the opposite, but some insoluble fiber helps that out alot).
If you were getting the equivalent amount of fructose from the sources most people do (caffeineated soft drinks), you would get the diarrhea.

So, here's the story (wacky random guy from Internet says):

The gut can efficiently digest fructose when there's a matching glucose molecule. They have to get paired up one by one to efficiently go through the gut lining. When you eat things with a high fructose/glucose ratio (like a sweet apple, for example, a bunch of "extra" fructose molecules don't get absorbed. So then, the fructose falls into the clutches of some varieties of bacteria in your gut.

The bacteria is REALLY happy to get that fructose, and goes nuts. One side effect is that that bacteria then interferes with the digestion of some nutrients that would normally help prevent acne in "normal" people. Most importantly, they interfere with tryptophan (but also zinc) absorption.

You need tryptophan to create melatonin; your body can't manufacture it, it has to come from your food supply. A long and large nightly surge of melatonin from the pineal gland (which turns tryptophan into melatonin every night) prevents acne because melatonin: is anti-androgenic, slows cell division, is directly anti-oxidant, stimulates cells to produce the powerful anti-oxidant zinc superoxide dismutase (but not if you can't digest zinc!), and restores insulin sensitivity.

Did we really evolve to not be able to eat fruits? No, but two things have changed since evolution designed our genes. First, we spent the last couple hundred years breeding fruits to have ever-higher fructose/glucose ratios so they'll taste sweeter and sell more. Second, we don't live in bright outdoor light every day any more. Why does that matter? Because living in dim light slows down your digestive tract and exacerbates carbohydrate (superset that includes fructose) malabsorption.

So, if you monitor closely, you'll find that if you've been spending a couple of days out in bright light all day (with your eyes exposed, not covered up with hat/sunglasses), you'll suddenly be able to eat that apple and not have a breakout. This is why people go nuts about food and acne. If they pay attention, they know food causes acne, but if they really pay attention, they also know that sometimes food doesn't cause acne.

OMGGGGGG! I have ALWAYS found I have this same problem! I thought i was crazy but no, I do not tolerate carbohydrates of any kind well at all. I am reduced to eating low starch vegetables only :( and this makes perfect sense that I broke out the worst in my life when i was eating mostly fruit and not going outside in the sun hardly ever, and not sleeping. And Once i started tanning again and sleeping right fruit only broke me out on my face not all over. I get white heads on my face from fruit so no your not crazy... and if fruit sugars inhibit zinc absorption that explains why my acne heals SO fast when i cut out all the fruits/carbs. And if it prevents my body from making tryptophan thats why i have such difficulty sleeping at night after i eat an apple. thank you so much for this information it all makes more sense now.

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same here, but glucose and galactose like in honey does not do that to me.

tomatoes are death for me.

i find this to be supportive for the theory that bacterial dysbiosis is involved in acne as many bacteria prefer disaccharides.

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This will sound completely crazy, but could wearing contacts block or slow down the reaction our eyes normally get from sunlight, therefore messing up our whole melatonin process (etc.)?

I know it sounds paranoid, but I was just brainstorming ideas and crazy theories and threw it out there.

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This will sound completely crazy, but could wearing contacts block or slow down the reaction our eyes normally get from sunlight, therefore messing up our whole melatonin process (etc.)?

Seems unlikely. The cells in your retina that connect to the pineal gland are

driven by intensity. If contacts were significantly cutting down the intensity

of light getting to your eyes, you would probably be complaining about them.

If you had some kind of weird lenses, like blue-blockers or something, then

I could see it.

I have noticed that in my office, where light is bounced off the ceiling,

the world looks quite noticeably brighter if I open my eyes very wide,

bringing in more of the light from that high angle. I know there is some

condition that makes people's default eyelid position nearly half-closed,

and it would be interesting to figure out if they are more prone to acne

or sleep disturbances or depression. Good luck getting funding for that

wacky idea! :D

There is some evidence that people with darker eye colors (e.g., brown eyes)

tend to require more intense light to suppress melatonin, but I think there's

now conflicting data on that point. I hope the original data proves true, because

I think failure to suppress daytime melatonin increases the odds of auto-immune

disease, and this could neatly explain why the age of onset of rheumatoid

arthritis is younger in Mexico than Canada (way more brown-eyed people

in Mexico).

Gotta say that Im surprised that pineapple is your ONLY non-issue fruit since that is a high glycemic one.

IMHO, glycemic load has little or no effect on acne. It's just that eating a low glycemic load diet will implicitly decrease the amount of carbs you eat that are most prone to the carb malabsorption exacerbated by living in dim light. In any case, given the ability of melatonin to restore insulin sensitivity, it seems illogical for anyone who did believe that acne is insulin-related to not be paying great attention to having a normal melatonin cycle. That is a relatively recent direction in melatonin research but, in general, I think clinicians will continue to ignore the importance of melatonin so long as there's no convenient way to measure it.

so you want things with a 1/1 ratio or HIGHER glucose content then fructose content?

Of the spectrum of carbohydrate malabsorption problems, that should reduce or eliminate fructose malabsorption. Not sure there is any natural food that contains more glucose than fructose, apart from sometimes honey (honey seems to have a pretty wide variation -- guess those bees aren't working to ISO standards yet). In general, fructose malabsorption may be part of a bigger category of carbohydrate malabsorption. See the FODMAP hypothesis for more info. The Japanese study that demonstrated decreased carb malabsorption with bright light used pasta and fruit juice as the meal designed to cause problems. My suspicion is that the Japanese have hit upon the key reason for a whole host of increased disease rates, from acid reflux to prostate cancer (getting less zinc). We simply did not evolve to live in dim light during the day, and sleep in light pollution every night. Night and day are the most ancient and powerful environmental signals we have, and melatonin has been its hormonal transmitter since before we climbed onto dry land. We mess that up completely and assume there are no consequences...

do you think it's possible to replicate the results by just sitting next to an open window as much as possible?

I bet it is if you actually face the window, and keep moving to new windows as the light moves, and have really big windows, and sit really close to them. All those qualifications are by way of saying I just could not personally get the same results sitting by a window as I did sitting outdoors. I would sit on the deck, in the shade, but facing out towards the sky as much as possible, and that's a lot of extraneous light hitting my eyes from all angles, even on cloudy days.

Now that it's too cold/rainy for me to read/type outdoors all day, I'm in week 1 of my experiment of using seriously bright indoor lights that have an emphasis on blue spectrum (GE Chroma 50 fluorescent bulbs). My original scheme of using banks of indirect light bounced off the ceiling did not work, but it initially looks like using bare bulbs pointed right at me from 4 feet away may possibly work as well for me as outdoor light. I do have my butt parked in front of that light 10-12 hours per day, though.

I can't remember if you covered this in a previous thread, but have you every tried adding glucose powder with high fructose foods?

Never tried it, but it's an interesting idea. It's not clear to me how closely paired the fructose and glucose molecules have to be, whether they have to be neatly paired, or if a fructose molecule just gets stuck and waits for any old glucose molecule to float by. Would be an interesting experiment.

I agree that fructose should be balanced, but sweet potatoes are balanced:

It is the excess molecules of fructose that matter, so if you eat enough of a food with a modest fructose/glucose ratio, you can get the same amount of excess fructose as comes with eating a smaller amount of something with a high ratio.

I should be clear that, in general, I don't personally mess with worrying about the fructose content of anything. Since bright light exposure lets me eat almost anything I want (but not evening caffeine), I mostly just focus on making that happen. I guess I'm trading one inconvenience for another, but I find it real hard to give up my daily noon 32-ounce Coke (fructose/glucose ratio about equivalent to the worst fruits, like apples and pears).

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I agree that fructose should be balanced, but sweet potatoes are balanced:

It is the excess molecules of fructose that matter, so if you eat enough of a food with a modest fructose/glucose ratio, you can get the same amount of excess fructose as comes with eating a smaller amount of something with a high ratio.

But since sweet potatoes have more glucose than fructose, theoretically, no matter how much you eat, shouldn't there be no chance of you getting any excess fructose?

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This will sound completely crazy, but could wearing contacts block or slow down the reaction our eyes normally get from sunlight, therefore messing up our whole melatonin process (etc.)?

Seems unlikely. The cells in your retina that connect to the pineal gland are

driven by intensity. If contacts were significantly cutting down the intensity

of light getting to your eyes, you would probably be complaining about them.

If you had some kind of weird lenses, like blue-blockers or something, then

I could see it.

I have noticed that in my office, where light is bounced off the ceiling,

the world looks quite noticeably brighter if I open my eyes very wide,

bringing in more of the light from that high angle. I know there is some

condition that makes people's default eyelid position nearly half-closed,

and it would be interesting to figure out if they are more prone to acne

or sleep disturbances or depression. Good luck getting funding for that

wacky idea! :D

There is some evidence that people with darker eye colors (e.g., brown eyes)

tend to require more intense light to suppress melatonin, but I think there's

now conflicting data on that point. I hope the original data proves true, because

I think failure to suppress daytime melatonin increases the odds of auto-immune

disease, and this could neatly explain why the age of onset of rheumatoid

arthritis is younger in Mexico than Canada (way more brown-eyed people

in Mexico).

Gotta say that Im surprised that pineapple is your ONLY non-issue fruit since that is a high glycemic one.

IMHO, glycemic load has little or no effect on acne. It's just that eating a low glycemic load diet will implicitly decrease the amount of carbs you eat that are most prone to the carb malabsorption exacerbated by living in dim light. In any case, given the ability of melatonin to restore insulin sensitivity, it seems illogical for anyone who did believe that acne is insulin-related to not be paying great attention to having a normal melatonin cycle. That is a relatively recent direction in melatonin research but, in general, I think clinicians will continue to ignore the importance of melatonin so long as there's no convenient way to measure it.

so you want things with a 1/1 ratio or HIGHER glucose content then fructose content?

Of the spectrum of carbohydrate malabsorption problems, that should reduce or eliminate fructose malabsorption. Not sure there is any natural food that contains more glucose than fructose, apart from sometimes honey (honey seems to have a pretty wide variation -- guess those bees aren't working to ISO standards yet). In general, fructose malabsorption may be part of a bigger category of carbohydrate malabsorption. See the FODMAP hypothesis for more info. The Japanese study that demonstrated decreased carb malabsorption with bright light used pasta and fruit juice as the meal designed to cause problems. My suspicion is that the Japanese have hit upon the key reason for a whole host of increased disease rates, from acid reflux to prostate cancer (getting less zinc). We simply did not evolve to live in dim light during the day, and sleep in light pollution every night. Night and day are the most ancient and powerful environmental signals we have, and melatonin has been its hormonal transmitter since before we climbed onto dry land. We mess that up completely and assume there are no consequences...

do you think it's possible to replicate the results by just sitting next to an open window as much as possible?

I bet it is if you actually face the window, and keep moving to new windows as the light moves, and have really big windows, and sit really close to them. All those qualifications are by way of saying I just could not personally get the same results sitting by a window as I did sitting outdoors. I would sit on the deck, in the shade, but facing out towards the sky as much as possible, and that's a lot of extraneous light hitting my eyes from all angles, even on cloudy days.

Now that it's too cold/rainy for me to read/type outdoors all day, I'm in week 1 of my experiment of using seriously bright indoor lights that have an emphasis on blue spectrum (GE Chroma 50 fluorescent bulbs). My original scheme of using banks of indirect light bounced off the ceiling did not work, but it initially looks like using bare bulbs pointed right at me from 4 feet away may possibly work as well for me as outdoor light. I do have my butt parked in front of that light 10-12 hours per day, though.

I can't remember if you covered this in a previous thread, but have you every tried adding glucose powder with high fructose foods?

Never tried it, but it's an interesting idea. It's not clear to me how closely paired the fructose and glucose molecules have to be, whether they have to be neatly paired, or if a fructose molecule just gets stuck and waits for any old glucose molecule to float by. Would be an interesting experiment.

I agree that fructose should be balanced, but sweet potatoes are balanced:

It is the excess molecules of fructose that matter, so if you eat enough of a food with a modest fructose/glucose ratio, you can get the same amount of excess fructose as comes with eating a smaller amount of something with a high ratio.

I should be clear that, in general, I don't personally mess with worrying about the fructose content of anything. Since bright light exposure lets me eat almost anything I want (but not evening caffeine), I mostly just focus on making that happen. I guess I'm trading one inconvenience for another, but I find it real hard to give up my daily noon 32-ounce Coke (fructose/glucose ratio about equivalent to the worst fruits, like apples and pears).

Any update with the bright light experiment?

Also are there specific bulbs that you can link me to that I can use if you did have success.

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I'm so insanely interested in this idea as I've found i can go nuclear with some fruits.

Going on this table it seems the 'safe' fruits to eat (and I need to find safe fruit) would be

apricots

avo

banana - quite surprised at this - and happy too cos i eat them A LOT

blueberries

cherries

figs

grapefruit

jackfruit

kiwi fruit

lemon

lime

orange (just)

peach

pineapple

plum

pomegranate

passion fruit

raspberries

starfruit

strawberries (just)

tomatoes (just)

i don't do dried fruit so don't care about that really

would this be correct?

databased - i love your discussions and am just trying out your ideas about sunlight and darkness to see if it makes a difference

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There is the possibility that you have Fructose Malabsorption Syndrome and could take a hydrogen breath test at the doctor's office to diagnose it. There are other symptoms of Fructose Malabsorption Syndrome but I'm wondering if some people might only display light symptoms such as the ones you have instead of the more severe symptoms.

Edited by Dotty1

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Where do you guys check out the fructose and glucose ratio of fruits?

there's one here

so far i have only eaten blueberries and grapefruit with no bad results - i'm checking them all out slowly but surely to see if there are any problems - next on my list, pineapple!!

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Here's a pretty good chart of fruits and the amounts of each type of sugar they contain per 100 grams.

Thanks for that - REALLY useful

Here is why the fruit you buy in stores in no way reflects the fruits man has been eating for eons:

I don't really care about that, fruit still has vitamins and minerals and I want to eat it. but cheers anyway

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You might have Fructose Malabsorption Syndrome. Google it and read the symptoms. You can get it diagnosed with a hydrogen breath test at the doctor's office.

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This is really pissing me off. First (about like 5 months ago) I thought it was only apples, or cherries, but now it is almost every fruit. Every single time I eat it (eg. 1 apple, half cup of cherries, some chunks of cantelope, grapes, strawberries, and blue berries) my forehead is a mess with under the skin pustules by THAT night. If I completely eliminate all fruit, it completely disappears (i've been weeks to a month without by doing this. But it just seems so unhealthy in the long term, so i'll have a friggen piece of fruit and it happens again and again. At first I thought it was candida, but I can eat all the white rice and pasta in the world and it won't have any effect whatsoever. Normal sugar doesn't have a huge effect either (maybe a few spots here or there, but nothing like the deep stuf on the forehead).

The only fruit that doesn't make it go crazy is pineapple fwiw.

I mean, this happens every time. WTF is wrong with me? It would be one thing if it was just overindulging, but I mean one medium sized apple will do it, same with a handful of cherries.

I was thinking about it being fructose intolerance, but it seems like one of the main symptoms is constant diarrhea and stuff which I never have (usually the opposite, but some insoluble fiber helps that out alot).

Edit: if it helps, it's almost always directly on the forehead area above the eyebrows (so from the eyebrows all the way to the top of my head)

It could be a fructose intolerance but according to my inflammation chart, most fruits are minus, not plus.

blueberries -28

cantelope plus 78

apple is -21

cherries -47

grapes -56

strawberries plus 28

Pineapple plus 65

Why not try to eat just cantelope, pineapple, and strawberries and see what happens.

Edited by steeler

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