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Misslmh

STRANGE - dry & oily ?

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So I am using something called duac , which is BP + clindamycin together

Lately it seems to be making my skin really dry but oil still comes through - i know that sounds wierd ... but its like my skin is trying to re-hydrate by beoming oily , but my skin is stil dry :/

nightmare !

help ?

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I noticed that since starting to use BP my skin is drier than usual, but does still have a slight oily shine to it. If I run my finger over it I get a slight glossy shine on my finger tip. Yet on my face you cant see a thing. Its very strange.

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So I am using something called duac , which is BP + clindamycin together

Lately it seems to be making my skin really dry but oil still comes through - i know that sounds wierd ...

People don't seem to realize that it's ambiguous to say that your skin is "dry", because that could mean different things. It could be "dry" from a lack of moisture, or it could be "dry" from a lack of oil (sebum). Which kind of "dry" are you referring to? :think:

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I have had the same problem. My face would become extreamly oily, but very dry at the same time. Then, a friend told me that the reason that my face was getting so oily was because I was drying out my skin too much. It's the same with hair, if you don't use conditioner, you hair will get even more oily. So, I started using this target brand acne moisturizer (I think it's the equivalent to clean and clear) and my face isn't getting as oily. Hope this helps :) !

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I though as much

Uhm to reply way up there about my dryness

its like eczema , all cracked - but the oil comes through that skin

to the last comment thankyou :)

I think I have resolved it now

i give my skin a break when i know its getting bad

seems to be working (Y) :)

I suppose everyones skin is different with different sensitivities etc,

chrs all ! :D

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I have had the same problem. My face would become extreamly oily, but very dry at the same time. Then, a friend told me that the reason that my face was getting so oily was because I was drying out my skin too much.

Don't listen to your friend. He's wrong about that.

It's the same with hair, if you don't use conditioner, you hair will get even more oily.

Oil on your hair comes from sebum on the scalp, and it gets there only from physical contact (like combing your hair or scratching your head, sleeping on a pillow, etc.). A conditioner isn't going to affect the oil on your hair, unless it alters in some way the way you do those things (combing your hair and scratching your head, sleeping on a pillow, etc.)! :)

Edited by bryan

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Hi,

i was having the same problem because i started using an acne gel that has 10% bp but now

my skin feels normal..

I'm no derm but i think my skin became oily/dry because my skin was responding to the gel..??

lol i dont know.. but all i can suggest is to hydrate hydrate and hydrate!

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same problem here i am using zapzyt's acne treatment gel (w/ 10% BP)

or it could be "dry" from a lack of oil (sebum).

Bryan, I thought you have made it clear that dry skin has nothing to do with lack of sebum? Then why do you contradict yourself with that quote above?

So I am using something called duac , which is BP + clindamycin together

Lately it seems to be making my skin really dry but oil still comes through - i know that sounds wierd ...

People don't seem to realize that it's ambiguous to say that your skin is "dry", because that could mean different things. It could be "dry" from a lack of moisture, or it could be "dry" from a lack of oil (sebum). Which kind of "dry" are you referring to? :think:

or it could be "dry" from a lack of oil (sebum).

Bryan, I thought you have made it clear that dry skin has nothing to do with lack of sebum? Then why do you contradict yourself with that quote above?

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Bryan, I thought you have made it clear that dry skin has nothing to do with lack of sebum? Then why do you contradict yourself with that quote above?

I didn't contradict myself. I was referring to the two different MEANINGS of the word "dry". Sometimes people use that word to mean a lack of moisture, other times people use it to mean a lack of oil.

But as I've made clear a bunch of times, the presence or absence of sebum on the skin has no signifcant effect on the presence or absence of MOISTURE in the skin. There: is THAT clear enough?? :)

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Bryan, I thought you have made it clear that dry skin has nothing to do with lack of sebum? Then why do you contradict yourself with that quote above?

I didn't contradict myself. I was referring to the two different MEANINGS of the word "dry". Sometimes people use that word to mean a lack of moisture, other times people use it to mean a lack of oil.

But as I've made clear a bunch of times, the presence or absence of sebum on the skin has no signifcant effect on the presence or absence of MOISTURE in the skin. There: is THAT clear enough?? :)

Yes, thank you, much better. But, does sebum have no "significant" effect or no effect at all on skin. The reason i ask is because i took accutane a few years ago and my sebaceous are still completely shut down. There is never sebum on the surface of my skin. With that being said, don't you think sebum is important for your hair? With the absence of sebum, my hair is always frizzy and dry now.

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Bryan, I thought you have made it clear that dry skin has nothing to do with lack of sebum? Then why do you contradict yourself with that quote above?

I didn't contradict myself. I was referring to the two different MEANINGS of the word "dry". Sometimes people use that word to mean a lack of moisture, other times people use it to mean a lack of oil.

But as I've made clear a bunch of times, the presence or absence of sebum on the skin has no signifcant effect on the presence or absence of MOISTURE in the skin. There: is THAT clear enough?? :)

I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but are you admitting that it has some effect by saying it doesn't have "significant" effect? I've read all of your posts and am very familiar with Albert Kligman's studies, but am still uncertain if perhaps having a little sebum on the surface of your skin may be beneficial to keeping skin elastic and wrinkle free. My skin has been lacking sebum for years now because of accutane and i feel like i have aged 10 years in 3. But if Sebum is useless,(which i still believe it atleast is beneficial for your hair) then why have a developed wrinkles and flaky skin. Can accutane have some other sort of dry effect? Because if you say sebum has nothing to with dry skin, why is your skin dry on accutane? Not because of the lack of sebum? Than what is the reason? Sorry for all the questions, im just so angry i ever took that drug and am confused as to why my skin is still dry as well as my hair.

But also, I need to disagree with you on one thing. Hair doesn't just get sebum from the scalp, it recieves sebum from the sebaceous glands attached to the hair follicle. And that i believe is how hair is kept lubricated and moist. If there was no sebum to lubricate your hair, your hair would be constantly dry (as is mine now bc of my lack of sebum).

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Yes, thank you, much better. But, does sebum have no "significant" effect or no effect at all on skin.

I don't know for absolutely certain-sure. But I'm a cautious person, so I always prefer to use words that are less emphatic, and leave me a bit of wiggle-room! :)

The reason i ask is because i took accutane a few years ago and my sebaceous are still completely shut down. There is never sebum on the surface of my skin. With that being said, don't you think sebum is important for your hair? With the absence of sebum, my hair is always frizzy and dry now.

People on acne sites and hairloss sites are always talking about the alleged importance of "natural oils" for your hair, implying that sebum is important, and bad things are going to happen to your hair if you wash it too often, or too harshly. But here's an excerpt from "Studies on the Effect of Shampoos on Scalp Lipids and Bacteria", A.M. Kligman (the great Kligman again! :angel: ), K.J. McGinley, and J.J. Leyden, from the book Hair Research (Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg 1981), who found that even defatting the scalp and hair with ETHER, for God's sake, didn't seem to do any damage to hair:

"...If our explanation is correct, the sequestration of sebum between cuticle cells is a biologically sound device to assure that there will always be a small amount of lipid to protect the fiber from environmental assaults, including highly efficient shampoos. There would appear to be little ground for fearing that the surfactants will do their job too well, leaving the hair 'squeaky clean.' The formulator does not need to worry that he may be creating surfactant systems that remove more oil than soil. In our studies, even after the two cycle ether extraction of the scalp, the hair was neither dry nor squeeky. Indeed, it was suprisingly pleasing with a high lustre and an agreeable feel."

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I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but are you admitting that it has some effect by saying it doesn't have "significant" effect?

No, just being very cautious about what I say (see my previous post above).

I've read all of your posts and am very familiar with Albert Kligman's studies, but am still uncertain if perhaps having a little sebum on the surface of your skin may be beneficial to keeping skin elastic and wrinkle free. My skin has been lacking sebum for years now because of accutane and i feel like i have aged 10 years in 3. But if Sebum is useless,(which i still believe it atleast is beneficial for your hair) then why have a developed wrinkles and flaky skin.

You _are_ getting older all the time, right? :) But seriously, how exactly would sebum keep your skin elastic and wrinkle-free?

Can accutane have some other sort of dry effect? Because if you say sebum has nothing to with dry skin, why is your skin dry on accutane? Not because of the lack of sebum? Than what is the reason? Sorry for all the questions, im just so angry i ever took that drug and am confused as to why my skin is still dry as well as my hair.

Every time you used the word "dry" in those sentences, did you mean oil-dry, or moisture-dry?

But also, I need to disagree with you on one thing. Hair doesn't just get sebum from the scalp, it recieves sebum from the sebaceous glands attached to the hair follicle.

I don't understand what you're saying. Sebum from the scalp _does_ come from sebaceous glands that are attached to the hair follicle.

And that i believe is how hair is kept lubricated and moist. If there was no sebum to lubricate your hair, your hair would be constantly dry (as is mine now bc of my lack of sebum).

"Dry" meaning moisture-dry? Do you think sebum keeps hair in a constantly moist condition? :)

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From my research, sebum and moisture are indeed separate, but also from what I've read they do work together. Sebum locks in the moisture and protects your skin.

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Sebum locks in the moisture and protects your skin.

How do little children manage to get along just fine, without having any sebum to "lock in" their moisture? How do adults with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, a condition caused by genetically defective androgen receptors, and who produce no sebum) manage to do the same? Are little children (and adults with CAIS) known for having a lack of moisture in their skin? And how do you explain that study of the elderly (normal, elderly adults) which found no correlation between the amount of sebum production in their skin, and the incidence or severity of dry (moisture-dry) skin?

Edited by bryan

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For one, babies are born with sebum. It's called vernix caseosa. If babies didn't have this, they'd be wrinkly little prunes. So babies come out of the womb in a film of sebum, and it protects the skin (ie. waterproofing). Not only does it waterproof from external factors, it aids in keeping moisture underneath the acid mantle. Also from what I've read, children have sebum, and production may be increased during puberty. Maybe I should have said "aided" in keeping the skin hydrated before, and that's what I meant by them working together. For two, sebum also mixes with lipids and sweat ON THE SURFACE OF THE SKIN. Sebum is only a PORTION of the oil that coats and protects the skin and REDUCES (not the only factor in moisture) natural water loss.

Finally, I never claimed I was a dermatologist or claimed my statements were concrete facts. Not to mention, science is based on theoretical facts anyway, and it's theoretically diverse to offer more than one explanation based on empirical evidence. That's why I was very specific to say, "From what I'm read.. From my research.." My only goal was to give that poster another avenue for their search for wrinkles and moisture. I do admit I probably should have stated it only aids and is only one factor, because that's what I meant. And I guess since it seems imperative to state as well, this is also learned from research and science textbooks.

Edited by ijpinilla

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I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but are you admitting that it has some effect by saying it doesn't have "significant" effect?

No, just being very cautious about what I say (see my previous post above).

I've read all of your posts and am very familiar with Albert Kligman's studies, but am still uncertain if perhaps having a little sebum on the surface of your skin may be beneficial to keeping skin elastic and wrinkle free. My skin has been lacking sebum for years now because of accutane and i feel like i have aged 10 years in 3. But if Sebum is useless,(which i still believe it atleast is beneficial for your hair) then why have a developed wrinkles and flaky skin.

You _are_ getting older all the time, right? :) But seriously, how exactly would sebum keep your skin elastic and wrinkle-free?

Can accutane have some other sort of dry effect? Because if you say sebum has nothing to with dry skin, why is your skin dry on accutane? Not because of the lack of sebum? Than what is the reason? Sorry for all the questions, im just so angry i ever took that drug and am confused as to why my skin is still dry as well as my hair.

Every time you used the word "dry" in those sentences, did you mean oil-dry, or moisture-dry?

But also, I need to disagree with you on one thing. Hair doesn't just get sebum from the scalp, it recieves sebum from the sebaceous glands attached to the hair follicle.

I don't understand what you're saying. Sebum from the scalp _does_ come from sebaceous glands that are attached to the hair follicle.

And that i believe is how hair is kept lubricated and moist. If there was no sebum to lubricate your hair, your hair would be constantly dry (as is mine now bc of my lack of sebum).

"Dry" meaning moisture-dry? Do you think sebum keeps hair in a constantly moist condition? :)

I guess i mean moisture dry. My skin was and still is sebum dry since being on accutane, but it feels like my skin is moisture from accutane now also. Do you think accutane "moisture" drys the skin as well as shrinking the sebaceous glands. Because if accutane "oil dryed" the skin, it technically isnt really making the skin "dry" because sebum has nothing to do with any state of dryness on the skin, do you agree with that?

So what im asking is, does accutane "moisture dry" the skin?

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You _are_ getting older all the time, right? :) But seriously, how exactly would sebum keep your skin elastic and wrinkle-free?

I'm not sure how it would, but i do notice that people with oily skin seem to have far less wrinkles than those with non-oily skin. A few years ago before i took accutane (3 years ago) i never had even the slightest fine line on my face, now i have several wrinkles on my face and i am positive that accutane is the culprit.

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For one, babies are born with sebum.

I certainly agree with you that babies are born with sebum, and have sebum during infancy. But their sebum levels DECLINE substantially as they continue to grow older, until puberty hits.

It's called vernix caseosa. If babies didn't have this, they'd be wrinkly little prunes. So babies come out of the womb in a film of sebum, and it protects the skin (ie. waterproofing). Not only does it waterproof from external factors, it aids in keeping moisture underneath the acid mantle. Also from what I've read, children have sebum, and production may be increased during puberty.

Yes, absolutely! Sebum production increases DRAMATICALLY during puberty, which is the point I've been trying to get you to acknowledge. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the sebum levels of pre-pubertal children are lower than they are in teenagers or adults who take Accutane! Again I ask you to explain how it is that children (pre-pubertal children) can get by just fine without any dry-skin problems.

Maybe I should have said "aided" in keeping the skin hydrated before, and that's what I meant by them working together.

If there's any truth to that at all, sebum must play a very VERY insignificant role in keeping the skin hydrated.

For two, sebum also mixes with lipids and sweat ON THE SURFACE OF THE SKIN. Sebum is only a PORTION of the oil that coats and protects the skin and REDUCES (not the only factor in moisture) natural water loss.

Yeah, but I've read that sebum (from the sebacous glands) is BY FAR the major component of skin surface lipid. Something like 95% or so, if I remember correctly (the rest being of epidermal origin).

Finally, I never claimed I was a dermatologist or claimed my statements were concrete facts. Not to mention, science is based on theoretical facts anyway, and it's theoretically diverse to offer more than one explanation based on empirical evidence. That's why I was very specific to say, "From what I'm read.. From my research.." My only goal was to give that poster another avenue for their search for wrinkles and moisture.

In my opinion, a lot of the stuff that gets posted on this forum about the function of the skin and the sebaceous glands is just a bunch of unscientific Urban Myths. I advise people to pay closer attention to what doctors and scientists say about these matters, even if sometimes it goes against what seems to be "common knowledge".

Edited by bryan

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I guess i mean moisture dry. My skin was and still is sebum dry since being on accutane, but it feels like my skin is moisture from accutane now also. Do you think accutane "moisture" drys the skin as well as shrinking the sebaceous glands.

Yes I do!

Because if accutane "oil dryed" the skin, it technically isnt really making the skin "dry" because sebum has nothing to do with any state of dryness on the skin, do you agree with that?

So what im asking is, does accutane "moisture dry" the skin?

Yes, absolutely! I don't think there's any question of that!

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I guess i mean moisture dry. My skin was and still is sebum dry since being on accutane, but it feels like my skin is moisture from accutane now also. Do you think accutane "moisture" drys the skin as well as shrinking the sebaceous glands.

Yes I do!

Because if accutane "oil dryed" the skin, it technically isnt really making the skin "dry" because sebum has nothing to do with any state of dryness on the skin, do you agree with that?

So what im asking is, does accutane "moisture dry" the skin?

Yes, absolutely! I don't think there's any question of that!

Well, if you believe accutane "moisture" drys the skin, can i really still be experiencing this side effect 3 years later? And how would accutane moisture dry the skin, it removes the water from the skin? I don't really see this being feasible.

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For one, babies are born with sebum.

I certainly agree with you that babies are born with sebum, and have sebum during infancy. But their sebum levels DECLINE substantially as they continue to grow older, until puberty hits.

It's called vernix caseosa. If babies didn't have this, they'd be wrinkly little prunes. So babies come out of the womb in a film of sebum, and it protects the skin (ie. waterproofing). Not only does it waterproof from external factors, it aids in keeping moisture underneath the acid mantle. Also from what I've read, children have sebum, and production may be increased during puberty.

Yes, absolutely! Sebum production increases DRAMATICALLY during puberty, which is the point I've been trying to get you to acknowledge. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the sebum levels of pre-pubertal children are lower than they are in teenagers or adults who take Accutane! Again I ask you to explain how it is that children (pre-pubertal children) can get by just fine without any dry-skin problems.

Maybe I should have said "aided" in keeping the skin hydrated before, and that's what I meant by them working together.

If there's any truth to that at all, sebum must play a very VERY insignificant role in keeping the skin hydrated.

For two, sebum also mixes with lipids and sweat ON THE SURFACE OF THE SKIN. Sebum is only a PORTION of the oil that coats and protects the skin and REDUCES (not the only factor in moisture) natural water loss.

Yeah, but I've read that sebum (from the sebacous glands) is BY FAR the major component of skin surface lipid. Something like 95% or so, if I remember correctly (the rest being of epidermal origin).

Finally, I never claimed I was a dermatologist or claimed my statements were concrete facts. Not to mention, science is based on theoretical facts anyway, and it's theoretically diverse to offer more than one explanation based on empirical evidence. That's why I was very specific to say, "From what I'm read.. From my research.." My only goal was to give that poster another avenue for their search for wrinkles and moisture.

In my opinion, a lot of the stuff that gets posted on this forum about the function of the skin and the sebaceous glands is just a bunch of unscientific Urban Myths. I advise people to pay closer attention to what doctors and scientists say about these matters, even if sometimes it goes against what seems to be "common knowledge".

Well, I totally applaud you for setting people straight. I've encountered a lot of people who still believe that sebum and moisture are pretty much one-in-the-same, which soooooo not true. I can still see the side that sebum may not be the most significant factor in protecting the skin's moisture, seeing as they are many other factors (and I admit I don't know about all of them, but I love to learn ;) ) So it seems these "other factors" (protein keratin seems to be a significant one) are at work for the cases you stated, and I'm in agreement. Sebum may not be the significant factor when there's not much of it, but biologically I have stated it's job. I just go back to the days of my Bio lab in college when you learn the basics that water and oil do not mix without an emulsifier, so I just get this mental imagine of water in a cup with oil poured on top and remaining there. haha! But of course, I'm sure it's an oversimplification to compare this very basic lab experiment to the workings of the skin.

Although, I'm not completely convinced yet that sebum is entirely useless (although maybe not significant for the skin), because sebum is important for the eye, and from my understanding dysfunction of these glands in the eye does result in dry eyes and a lot of disgusting inflammation conditions. Also, I should state for the benefit of differentiating the glands in the eyelids and skin, meibomian sebaceous glands are the ones in the eyelid. Maybe these specific glands just do their job correctly? :lol:

Since you're very knowledgeable, are sphingolipids components for sebum as well? I ask because I've heard these lipids hold skin cells together to aid in moisture retention and protect the skin from the external environment. What do you think?

Edited by ijpinilla

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Although, I'm not completely convinced yet that sebum is entirely useless (although maybe not significant for the skin), because sebum is important for the eye, and from my understanding dysfunction of these glands in the eye does result in dry eyes and a lot of disgusting inflammation conditions. Also, I should state for the benefit of differentiating the glands in the eyelids and skin, meibomian sebaceous glands are the ones in the eyelid. Maybe these specific glands just do their job correctly? :lol:

I think you're right about that: the meibomian glands in the eyelid are vital for maintaining tear fluid, but that function can't be logically extended to include the sebaceous glands in the skin. Who am _I_ to argue with Kligman's view that the sebaceous glands in skin are "living fossils"? :)

Since you're very knowledgeable, are sphingolipids components for sebum as well? I ask because I've heard these lipids hold skin cells together to aid in moisture retention and protect the skin from the external environment. What do you think?

To the best of my knowledge, they aren't components of sebum. From everything I've read, they seem to be purely of epidermal origin.

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