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faggotfaggotbanme

Co2 Fully Ablative; average depth treatment?

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I'm considering going in for a CO2 fully ablative laser session, and the doctor I had the consultation with said she would do depths of 120 microns on the first pass, 120 microns on the second pass, and 80 microns on the third pass; total of 300 microns. I've been digging through countless medical journals - which are very interesting reads I might add, but I still cannot find the 'typical' treatment depth. It doesn't seem to me like 300 microns is as aggressive as the setting should be. It should be noted that I'm caucasian and don't tan easily (skin type 1 or type 2). If my research is correct, for each 100 microns of tissue done with the CO2, you get roughly 60 microns of ablation and 40 microns of thermal damage (feel free to correct me on those numbers). This means that at the settings quoted above, for a 300 micron treatment, only 180 microns of actual ablation and 120 microns of thermal damage are acheived. Even taking into account that more depth = more risk, this still just doesn't seem as aggressive as it could be. I just want to make sure I'm not getting substandard treatment; the cost for it is $4000.

If you have had ablative laser therapy on the face, what were your settings?

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Did your doctor give you options, or did you research fractional CO2?

I personally have done both, and would NEVER do fully ablative CO2 again! I don't feel the results were worth the pain and recovery time. Six weeks ago I had fractional CO2 and feel the results are much better, less pain, less recovery time and less risk for hypo and hyperpigmentation issues. I believe my original CO2 caused hypo with me, I am also fair skinned Caucasion.

I don't know what the setting were on the machine when I had my CO2, but I trusted my ps to do it the way he felt would be best for my skin. He was an expert with it years ago and has since retired.

My current ps was very good about explaining the procedure to me, and we also discussed depth and density of the laser. He did one pass on my entire face, then went back over the more heavily scarred areas with a second pass and turned up the settings on the machine. I know certain machines have the higher settings and can go 600-1000 microns.

And just for the record, fractional does not ablate the surface of the skin like traditional CO2, it is STILL ablative. They are still causing thermal damage, which causes the skin to regenerate. My entire face peeled after the fractional, and now it continues to improve as the collagen rebuilds.

Feel free to ask me questions, I did alot of research on the depth density of the fractional, and consulted with 3 surgeons. None of them would even DO the traditional CO2 on me, most dermatologsts and PS's feel it's a dinosaur compared to the new fractional options.

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Jaeks, I too, like LoveMyLife, have done both CO2 and Fraxional(Fraxel Re:Pair). I have also done Dermabrasion, and I consider Re:Pair as the best of the Big Three. You are looking at about 1.6 mm depth of penetration with Re:Pair. 3-4 Re:Pairs are needed for optimum results, but I don't believe even 3-4 CO2's will result in as good of results. The cost of the initial Re:Pair is about the same as CO2.

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I have done both the orginal Fraxel and the C02. I had the C02 done first and the doctor actually gave me a complimentary Fraxel treatment because he was "disappointed" in the C02 results. A lot of pain and a lot of money and little to no improvement. Save your money! I still havent found anything that works, but I am not losing hope! I hope this didn't rain on your parade...just know you are not alone :)

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Nimo84, the "original Fraxel" and Fraxel Repair are as different as night and day. "Original Fraxel" is Erbium non-ablative laser, Fraxel Re:Pair is a CO2 ablative laser and the two cannot be compared. People need to do the proper research, and the only laser comparable to Re:pair is TotalFX.

Jaeks, do your research based on CO2 - "Fraxel Re:Pair ONLY!!" and TotalFX. Most doctors who advertise Fraxel only have Re:store, and I do not recommend Re:store. I will do my 3rd Repair after the summer ends because of the need to avoid the sun.

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I'm considering going in for a CO2 fully ablative laser session, and the doctor I had the consultation with said she would do depths of 120 microns on the first pass, 120 microns on the second pass, and 80 microns on the third pass; total of 300 microns. I've been digging through countless medical journals - which are very interesting reads I might add, but I still cannot find the 'typical' treatment depth. It doesn't seem to me like 300 microns is as aggressive as the setting should be. It should be noted that I'm caucasian and don't tan easily (skin type 1 or type 2). If my research is correct, for each 100 microns of tissue done with the CO2, you get roughly 60 microns of ablation and 40 microns of thermal damage (feel free to correct me on those numbers). This means that at the settings quoted above, for a 300 micron treatment, only 180 microns of actual ablation and 120 microns of thermal damage are acheived. Even taking into account that more depth = more risk, this still just doesn't seem as aggressive as it could be. I just want to make sure I'm not getting substandard treatment; the cost for it is $4000.

If you have had ablative laser therapy on the face, what were your settings?

I might be wrong, but something doesn't sound right...I've had my first Fraxel Restore (non-ablative) last Thursday..and at the end of my session I looked at the screen, it says 1176 micron, which means the penetration was about 1.176 mm.

For something like a full ablative Co2 laser, I'd think the depth is more than a non-ablative laser, but again- I've never done full ablative laser before. Dudley can answer this better but looks like if your skin can handle it, Fraxel Repair is 'fractional ablative' means less risk, but penetration supposedly around 1.3-1.5 micron (pardon me if I'm wrong), which is around 20% deeper than non-ablative Fraxel Restore.

Looks like CO2 Full ablative is a thing of the past...

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Jaeks, I too, like LoveMyLife, have done both CO2 and Fraxional(Fraxel Re:Pair). I have also done Dermabrasion, and I consider Re:Pair as the best of the Big Three. You are looking at about 1.6 mm depth of penetration with Re:Pair. 3-4 Re:Pairs are needed for optimum results, but I don't believe even 3-4 CO2's will result in as good of results. The cost of the initial Re:Pair is about the same as CO2.

I live north of Toronto, and as far as i'm aware the only fraxel repair in or around toronto is Dr Ellis, and he charges $6000 for it. The laser I talked about in the first post is the CO2 FeatherTouch/SilkTouch. The doctor I saw charges $4000 for the fully ablative co2, or $2500 for fractional ablative co2 (her website is at:http://www.fairviewcosmeticsurgery.com/facial-rejuvenation-toronto.htm). I didn't ask what depths she would go with the fractional laser.

I found an interesting diagram at:http://drseckel.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/small-diagram.png - the accompanying explanation can be found at:http://www.zimbio.com/Boston+Plastic+Surgeon/articles/42/Fractional+Laser+Skin+Resurfacing+Future+Laser

From the diagram, it seems traditional co2 doesn't stimulate deep collagen remodeling. So for deeper scars, it seems multiple treatments would be necessary to push the scars to the surface and therefore would be a waste of money and time. I'm not sure of the depth of my scars, but I would rate them as at least moderate. They're noticable in good light and in bad light, they look... well, BAD. I was looking for a one-off kind of treatment, but my scars probably aren't shallow enough. Even so, I saw before and after pictures of several of her patients who had scars deeper than mine, and six months after only one fully ablative treatment they looked really good, so I don't see why I couldn't get similar results. The science behind these lasers is so convoluted, I don't even know what to think or to expect.

Anyways, I'm limited by my geography and lack of selection. I can't find a single doctor within the greater toronto area that has TotalFX, paying $6k for one fraxel repair is ridiculous, and two other clinics nearby that have co2 lasers utilitze the same FT/ST system. No fraxel, no totalfx. If I decide to go with a fractional laser, I'm still limited to the FT/ST laser... surely the results of one fractional co2 laser should be pretty similar among other fractional co2 laser brands, right?

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Jaeks, if you search through these boards you will find postings from other people from Toronto and most were considering a trip to Buffalo to save a ton of money. That doctor in Toronto has a corner on the market and he is taking advantage of it. It appears you are doing good research so make you decision on that research and not geography. I am looking at a possible hair transpant in the future and the doctor I have picked out is 1,000 miles away. Full CO2 is sort of considered yesterdays technology replaced by Fraxel Repair and TotalFX. Be careful reading that last link you posted because he is referring to Restore not Repair. I assume you already know about this site to search for a doctor. http://www.fraxel.com/patients.aspx

Here is the only Repair I found within 75 miles of zipcode 14201

Daniel A. Buscaglia, DO

Cosmetic Vein & Laser Center

52 South Union Road, Suite 203

Williamsville, New York, 14221

Phone: 716-632-5200

Here is all of Canada, but most of these won't offer Repair.

http://www.fraxel.com/findDoctorResult.aspx?country=Canada

Unless you have very superficial scars you will need multiple treatments, that is the cold hard fact. 4 months after CO2 I could see no improvement. 4 months after my first repair I saw about a 30% improvement and 6 months after my second Repair I am at about 50-60% improvement. I would not do CO2 again, but I am scheduling my 3rd Repair for the fall.

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Jaeks, if you search through these boards you will find postings from other people from Toronto and most were considering a trip to Buffalo to save a ton of money. That doctor in Toronto has a corner on the market and he is taking advantage of it. It appears you are doing good research so make you decision on that research and not geography. I am looking at a possible hair transpant in the future and the doctor I have picked out is 1,000 miles away. Full CO2 is sort of considered yesterdays technology replaced by Fraxel Repair and TotalFX. Be careful reading that last link you posted because he is referring to Restore not Repair. I assume you already know about this site to search for a doctor.

Here is the only Repair I found within 75 miles of zipcode 14201

Daniel A. Buscaglia, DO

Cosmetic Vein & Laser Center

52 South Union Road, Suite 203

Williamsville, New York, 14221

Phone: 716-632-5200

Here is all of Canada, but most of these won't offer Repair.

Unless you have very superficial scars you will need multiple treatments, that is the cold hard fact. 4 months after CO2 I could see no improvement. 4 months after my first repair I saw about a 30% improvement and 6 months after my second Repair I am at about 50-60% improvement. I would not do CO2 again, but I am scheduling my 3rd Repair for the fall.

There's one in London, Ontario; i'm checking it out next week. A related question for you: prior to your fraxel treatments, do you pre-treat your face with retin-a?

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