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oli girl

'Accutane debate placeholder thread'

Guest Modestm
You will find very few drugs out there that are as deeply embroiled in controversy as isotretinoin.

Hah. That's largely because of people like you populating every forum concerning accutane with alarmist, scaremongering nonsense - a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can be proud of yourself. Let's just forget the thousands of people (like me) who have their lives dramatically changed for the better every year. They outnumber those with proven serious long-term side effects by 99 to 1.

NO drug is 100% safe - read the Wiki entry for ibuprofen, for example. No-one in their right mind would take it after reading the side effects, yet it successfully relieves thousands from pain every day.

Have you considered getting a job touting for trade with a class-action law firm? May as well get paid for your trouble.

Why is there no uproar regarding ibuprofen? Why are people within the FDA flabbergasted that this crap is still in circulation? Again, it's crude science, and people deserve more. On this site, Accutane is pushed for mild acne. There are obviously countless lines here that have been crossed.

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Guest Modestm

Also, no one who is an ideal candidate for that poison will be dissuaded by me, and I will tell you why: the ideal Accutane candidate should have recalcitrant acne (most don't) which has not responded to conventional therapies, in more than likely, years. These people are so fed-up and desperate that they are no longer thinking straight or rational. Only at such a juncture would this chemotherapeutic riddled with side effects seem promising, and present, as a legitimate way out; so in effect, all the sense that I talk is effectively mute against these desperate people. So you can calm down :whistle:

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" ModestM"- Point is, it's the patient's decision to either take Accutane or not. Dermatologists can't feed you the drug. People go on Accutane and a majority of them come off it perfectly fine, (like yourself) to enjoy the rest of their lives either acne free or at least to a different degree of acne that is much more treatable. Is it because your acne came back and thats why your putting Accutane down? If so, thats pretty sad that you would come back here to tell people its a horrible drug when nothing bad happened to you. If you were to develop a side effect, i would feel sympathy for you.

If i were to develop long term side effects, i would be upset, but at the same time i would not come on to a site everyday to try and weave people from taking it when it could potentially change their life for the best. It was my decision, it was your decision. This debate is useless.

Edited by keiko1

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" ModestM"- Point is, it's the patient's decision to either take Accutane or not. Dermatologists can't feed you the drug. People go on Accutane and a majority of them come off it perfectly fine, (like yourself) to enjoy the rest of their lives either acne free or at least to a different degree of acne that is much more treatable. Is it because your acne came back and thats why your putting Accutane down? If so, thats pretty sad that you would come back here to tell people its a horrible drug when nothing bad happened to you. If you were to develop a side effect, i would feel sympathy for you.

If i were to develop long term side effects, i would be upset, but at the same time i would not come on to a site everyday to try and weave people from taking it when it could potentially change their life for the best. It was my decision, it was your decision. This debate is useless.

Quoted for truth.

To the people who constantly discourage others from taking this drug, imagine the time and effort you could have put into improving your own quality of life instead of scaring and delaying people from taking something that is most likely going improve theirs.

Edited by jimmy188

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Guest Modestm
Is it because your acne came back and thats why your putting Accutane down? If so, thats pretty sad that you would come back here to tell people its a horrible drug when nothing bad happened to you.

Pretty much everything you said is not worthy of a re-tort, except that which was said above. I was not affected negatively by that crude chemotherapeutic; however, given that it is what it is, I feel badly for those who were affected by it. It is like no one can fathom someone feeling empathy for someone else. You are questioning me, and my motives. I will question you, sir: why can't you see that isotretinoin is an awful drug for many people; and, that it makes some people wish they still had acne? Why do people have to contend with wishing they were dead, after Accutane?

Edited by Modestm

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Guest Modestm

I am not dissuading anyone; please see post #1049 for further clarification.

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http://dermatology.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2005/524/1

This study was funded 80% by Liam Grant, a fervent anti-Accutaner. This study showed a change in "brain function/metabolism" which has not been replicated since and which is a vague/inflammatory result unless there is a corresponding clinically significant effect (e.g. depression/anxiety) demonstrated, but there was not: "There were no differences in the severity of depressive symptoms between the isotretinoin and antibiotic treatment groups before or after treatment."

Go ahead and look at this figure from the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296731

This review stated in its abstract "... epidemiological studies have reported no consistent link between Accutane use and clinical depression in humans." Sums it up perfectly.

http://www.pnas.org/content/101/14/5111.full

Study in mice not humans, and funded again by Mr Grant.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/5/983

Same as first study you posted.

OP- Please let your doctor know. wether you have a hx of depression or not, Accutane can either enhance or cause depression etc... even in thoose with no hx and may or may not go away.

I am NOT denying that Accutane could cause depression but at this stage it seems it could only be due to a rare (<1%) idiosyncratic reaction to the drug, and ALL drugs have rare severe side effects.

OP: tell you derm you are feeling depressed, but if you aren't feeling suicidal then emphasize this point.

I didn't post thoose links to disprove your links, really no links are needed as Roche themselves & generics have a whole page describing that accutane can cause depression, agression etc..(which obviously the OP states he's punching walls)

Well I almost didn't post back, but since you wanted to try and point out that Mr. Grant is a fervent anti Accutaner. I like to point out

A. This man took his own life savings after his son comitted suicide to fund studies and Roche wouldn't even donate the medication for the studies.

b. If Roche believed that Accutane doesn't cause changes in brain, depression etc....Why not donate the medication??

c. If Roche believed that Mr. Liam Grant's claims were false, why would Roche have thier lawyers try and settle for more money then what Mr. Grant would win in a Ireland court? let's no foreget Mr. Liam Grant refused thier money

I could go on...but I leave you with this

What if that was your child? What if you were Liam Grant, Bart Stupak, Richard Todd, Medlands, or any other parent who has a lost a child to accutane? What do they have to gain? Is the study less real b/c he was a father who lost his son to accutane?

Another thing you keep repeating 1%, yet I don't see anywhere in Roche's lit that there is less then 1% in any symptom. I don't show any evidence of 1% from the FDA?? Even if it was say 1% what 20 mil (we will say) have taken Accutane, so that leaves about what 200,000 who have developed depressioin, commited suicide?? That 1 to many lives to me for a harsh drug that treats acne.

16% develop myalgias/arthralgias which can presisit even after treatment, it won't kill you but a life of pain at a young age can't feel good.

To deny the facts or to minimize someone who is clearly getting depression and agression while taking Accutane is just not right to me.

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Is it because your acne came back and thats why your putting Accutane down? If so, thats pretty sad that you would come back here to tell people its a horrible drug when nothing bad happened to you.

Pretty much everything you said is not worthy of a re-tort, except that which was said above. I was not affected negatively by that crude chemotherapeutic; however, given that it is what it is, I feel badly for those who were affected by it. It is like no one can fathom someone feeling empathy for someone else. You are questioning me, and my motives. I will question you, sir: why can't you see that isotretinoin is an awful drug for many people; and, that it makes some people wish they still had acne? Why do people have to contend with wishing they were dead, after Accutane?

But why do you need to come here and explain to people negative effects when you haven't had them. You don't know what it's like to suffer from side effects, therefore you have NO say. I feel for those who have potentially suffered side effects from Accutane and had proven it, dont get me wrong, but you sir aren't one of those people. You finished your Accutane course, you have no negative side effects, therefore move on.

You still haven't answered my question.. did your acne return?

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http://dermatology.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2005/524/1

This study was funded 80% by Liam Grant, a fervent anti-Accutaner. This study showed a change in "brain function/metabolism" which has not been replicated since and which is a vague/inflammatory result unless there is a corresponding clinically significant effect (e.g. depression/anxiety) demonstrated, but there was not: "There were no differences in the severity of depressive symptoms between the isotretinoin and antibiotic treatment groups before or after treatment."

Go ahead and look at this figure from the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296731

This review stated in its abstract "... epidemiological studies have reported no consistent link between Accutane use and clinical depression in humans." Sums it up perfectly.

http://www.pnas.org/content/101/14/5111.full

Study in mice not humans, and funded again by Mr Grant.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/5/983

Same as first study you posted.

OP- Please let your doctor know. wether you have a hx of depression or not, Accutane can either enhance or cause depression etc... even in thoose with no hx and may or may not go away.

I am NOT denying that Accutane could cause depression but at this stage it seems it could only be due to a rare (<1%) idiosyncratic reaction to the drug, and ALL drugs have rare severe side effects.

OP: tell you derm you are feeling depressed, but if you aren't feeling suicidal then emphasize this point.

I didn't post thoose links to disprove your links, really no links are needed as Roche themselves & generics have a whole page describing that accutane can cause depression, agression etc..(which obviously the OP states he's punching walls)

Well I almost didn't post back, but since you wanted to try and point out that Mr. Grant is a fervent anti Accutaner. I like to point out

A. This man took his own life savings after his son comitted suicide to fund studies and Roche wouldn't even donate the medication for the studies.

b. If Roche believed that Accutane doesn't cause changes in brain, depression etc....Why not donate the medication??

c. If Roche believed that Mr. Liam Grant's claims were false, why would Roche have thier lawyers try and settle for more money then what Mr. Grant would win in a Ireland court? let's no foreget Mr. Liam Grant refused thier money

I could go on...but I leave you with this

What if that was your child? What if you were Liam Grant, Bart Stupak, Richard Todd, Medlands, or any other parent who has a lost a child to accutane? What do they have to gain? Is the study less real b/c he was a father who lost his son to accutane?

Another thing you keep repeating 1%, yet I don't see anywhere in Roche's lit that there is less then 1% in any symptom. I don't show any evidence of 1% from the FDA?? Even if it was say 1% what 20 mil (we will say) have taken Accutane, so that leaves about what 200,000 who have developed depressioin, commited suicide?? That 1 to many lives to me for a harsh drug that treats acne.

16% develop myalgias/arthralgias which can presisit even after treatment, it won't kill you but a life of pain at a young age can't feel good.

To deny the facts or to minimize someone who is clearly getting depression and agression while taking Accutane is just not right to me.

20,000.

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this is kinda random and i apologize if im not contributing by helping this thread's author... but what do i have to do to be able to start my own thread???

thanks in advance

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http://dermatology.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2005/524/1

This study was funded 80% by Liam Grant, a fervent anti-Accutaner. This study showed a change in "brain function/metabolism" which has not been replicated since and which is a vague/inflammatory result unless there is a corresponding clinically significant effect (e.g. depression/anxiety) demonstrated, but there was not: "There were no differences in the severity of depressive symptoms between the isotretinoin and antibiotic treatment groups before or after treatment."

Go ahead and look at this figure from the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296731

This review stated in its abstract "... epidemiological studies have reported no consistent link between Accutane use and clinical depression in humans." Sums it up perfectly.

http://www.pnas.org/content/101/14/5111.full

Study in mice not humans, and funded again by Mr Grant.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/5/983

Same as first study you posted.

OP- Please let your doctor know. wether you have a hx of depression or not, Accutane can either enhance or cause depression etc... even in thoose with no hx and may or may not go away.

I am NOT denying that Accutane could cause depression but at this stage it seems it could only be due to a rare (<1%) idiosyncratic reaction to the drug, and ALL drugs have rare severe side effects.

OP: tell you derm you are feeling depressed, but if you aren't feeling suicidal then emphasize this point.

I didn't post thoose links to disprove your links, really no links are needed as Roche themselves & generics have a whole page describing that accutane can cause depression, agression etc..(which obviously the OP states he's punching walls)

Well I almost didn't post back, but since you wanted to try and point out that Mr. Grant is a fervent anti Accutaner. I like to point out

A. This man took his own life savings after his son comitted suicide to fund studies and Roche wouldn't even donate the medication for the studies.

b. If Roche believed that Accutane doesn't cause changes in brain, depression etc....Why not donate the medication??

c. If Roche believed that Mr. Liam Grant's claims were false, why would Roche have thier lawyers try and settle for more money then what Mr. Grant would win in a Ireland court? let's no foreget Mr. Liam Grant refused thier money

I could go on...but I leave you with this

What if that was your child? What if you were Liam Grant, Bart Stupak, Richard Todd, Medlands, or any other parent who has a lost a child to accutane? What do they have to gain? Is the study less real b/c he was a father who lost his son to accutane?

Another thing you keep repeating 1%, yet I don't see anywhere in Roche's lit that there is less then 1% in any symptom. I don't show any evidence of 1% from the FDA?? Even if it was say 1% what 20 mil (we will say) have taken Accutane, so that leaves about what 200,000 who have developed depressioin, commited suicide?? That 1 to many lives to me for a harsh drug that treats acne.

16% develop myalgias/arthralgias which can presisit even after treatment, it won't kill you but a life of pain at a young age can't feel good.

To deny the facts or to minimize someone who is clearly getting depression and agression while taking Accutane is just not right to me.

Everything you asked has been responded to by me already in posts #1003 and #1030 in this thread; please read them.

ALL drugs have rare severe side effects including Accutane whose prevalence is <1% for ALL of its severe side effects combined, not just depression and suicide, neither of which have been conclusively causally linked to Accutane anyway (see post #1034 in this thread and the two studies you yourself posted), perhaps aside from rare idiosyncratic reactions like all drugs have. This overall figure (<1%) is not based on stats from the FDA, which are underestimates due to underreporting, but is based on many clinical trials and studies conducted over ~30 years by dermatologists/scientists around the world (certainly not only by "Roche" as you seem to believe). Patients aren't accountable to the FDA whereas they see their Derms regularly throughout treatment.

The figure is less than 1%, not exactly 1%. No one knows the exact prevalence but it is <1% and could in fact be very low.

Want evidence? Go ahead and look in post #1030. Got any evidence suggesting otherwise? Didn't think so (there's none). Just pure speculation.

______________________________________________________________________________

Jennifer (oli girl),

You have been on this website for two years bashing Accutane.

Your very first post on this site claimed "...I am only going to post once on this board", yet you are still here 2 years and 1000 posts later bashing something which you took VOLUNTARILY at age 32 (evidently without researching it enough beforehand) and which has been shown by independent research to characteristically improve quality of life (1, 2, 3, 4).

We all understand and sympathise that you have had a bad experience with the drug, probably a idiosyncratic reaction to it, but ALL drugs have rare unpredictable idiosyncratic reactions, even advil and tylenol, which are available over the counter.

In fact, the whole reason I've had acne for the last 5 years is because it was a residual side effect from another prescription med I was taking. Therefore I predictably _hate_ that med because of what it's done to me, AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHY I AVOID INTERNET FORUMS CREATED FOR THAT MED. I know that any advice I give would be inherently biased and would probably do more harm than good.

______________________________________________________________________________

Will you be here in another 2 years with another 1000 posts bashing Accutane, which in fact characteristically improves quality of life in acne patients, or will you have finally moved on and be focused entirely on improving your quality of life?

Only time will tell.

.

Edited by jimmy188

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Guest Modestm
But why do you need to come here and explain to people negative effects when you haven't had them. You don't know what it's like to suffer from side effects, therefore you have NO say. I feel for those who have potentially suffered side effects from Accutane and had proven it, dont get me wrong, but you sir aren't one of those people. You finished your Accutane course, you have no negative side effects, therefore move on.

You still haven't answered my question.. did your acne return?

I still had extremely mild/infrequent acne after the isotretinoin; and, I was not sufficiently stupid to keep pushing my luck. I treated it with a bit of B5 (very small dose).

Let's get to the question the audience wants answered: Why can you not concede that Accutane is a crude chemotherapeutic which is essentially an abomination and a misappropriation of nature that gets passed falsely as legitimate science? *Moderator edit - Do not pretend to be a moderator*

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But why do you need to come here and explain to people negative effects when you haven't had them. You don't know what it's like to suffer from side effects, therefore you have NO say. I feel for those who have potentially suffered side effects from Accutane and had proven it, dont get me wrong, but you sir aren't one of those people. You finished your Accutane course, you have no negative side effects, therefore move on.

You still haven't answered my question.. did your acne return?

I still had extremely mild/infrequent acne after the isotretinoin; and, I was not sufficiently stupid to keep pushing my luck. I treated it with a bit of B5 (very small dose).

Let's get to the question the audience wants answered: Why can you not concede that Accutane is a crude chemotherapeutic which is essentially an abomination and a misappropriation of nature that gets passed falsely as legitimate science? *Moderator edit - Do not pretend to be a moderator*

An abomination that has helped many such as You and I. I laughed when i read misappropriation of nature i don't even know how to reply to that. How does it get passed falsely as legitimate science? It's been proven to help patients and is THE best acne treatment on the market. Yet again, how can you be so upset at the drug when you are the one that pops the pill out of the package and puts it in your mouth. You need to research any drug you take, and need to ask questions.

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Once a drug is released onto the market it is subject to testing by scientists/doctors all over the world. Therefore, even if there was some "cover up" by Roche it would have to have been revealed by now by other scientists in the 30 years since the drug was released and taken by millions of people worldwide.

Vioxx is a good example.

Evidently, research still supports that Accutane helps many more people than it harms (like all drugs because all drugs have rare severe side effects, <1%). Otherwise it simply wouldn't be on the market.

Like all drugs the rare idiosyncratic severe side effects are (unfortunately) not predictable, otherwise people wouldn't end up with them. (Think about it.)

Edited by jimmy188

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Isotretinoin would be a great drug if it wouldn't cross the blood barrier and wouldn't induce chronic colitis in a subset of patients [i can agree that all other side effects are rather mild]. I excluded teratogenicity because if someone gets pregnant on isotretinoin then he simply deserves all the consequences.

If u study various researches available on pubmed u will realize that this drug is mostly used to treat various types of cancer and for chemoprevention.

After all the research I've done on 13-cis-retinoic acid [i think I read most of the studies available online] I have to conclude that this drug is safe only in low doses [<0.25mg/kg]. Of course teratogenicity occurs even on the lowest dose.

And it's kinda sad that in 21st century they still don't know how to surpress sebum production without such heavy systemic ingerention.

:cry:

Edited by VanceAstro

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Isotretinoin would be a great drug if it wouldn't cross the blood barrier and wouldn't induce chronic colitis in a subset of patients . I excluded teratogenicity because if someone gets pregnant on isotretinoin then he simply deserves all the consequences.

If u study various researches available on pubmed u will realize that this drug is mostly used to treat various types of cancer and for chemoprevention.

After all the research I've done on 13-cis-retinoic acid I have to conclude that this drug is safe only in low doses [<0.25mg/kg]. Of course teratogenicity occurs even on the lowest dose.

And it's kinda sad that in 21st century they still don't know how to surpress sebum production without such heavy systemic ingerention.

:cry:

Isotretinoin is used more in acne than in cancer. Think about it, many more people worldwide have acne than cancer. More than 10 million people have used isotretinoin for acne. Are you saying more than that have used iso for cancer?

Anyway, iso is generally used at much lower doses in acne (0.5 - 1.0 mg/kg) than in cancer (~3 mg/kg).

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Does Accutane cause inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)? Gastroenterologists respond.

People seem to think that Accutane definitely causes IBD (ulcerative colitis/Chron's) and that it may even be a common occurrence. Can't say I blame them when they are exposed to such information on television from birth. I argue that even if Accutane causes IBD (and it's not established that it does), it is a rare occurrence that by itself does not justify avoiding this medication if you have significant acne.

But what do gastroenterologists have to say about this?

I sent 119 apparent gastroenterologists the following email after obtaining their email addresses consecutively from papers from 2009-2011 issues of a particular gastroenterology journal ("European Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology") if and only if the corresponding author worked for a department with the words "gastroenterology" and/or "intestinal" in its name. These doctors are from all around the world (from the USA to Turkey).

Hello,

I'm currently on Accutane for my moderate acne vulgaris, and I've heard that Accutane may cause inflammatory bowel disease.

I've had no gastrointestinal symptoms, but to your knowledge does Accutane cause inflammatory bowel disease?

Kind regards

Edited by biggs881

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3 responses with an answer so far (names withheld for privacy):

The short answer is we don't know yet. One recent study suggested that people who took Accutane were 4 times more likely than people who didn't take the drug to get ulcerative colitis over the near term future. However, this might be confounded by other factors--could certain forms of acne be associated with ulcerative colitis, or could another drug taken for acne, such as minocycline, be a trigger? We just don't know yet.

Sincerely

Edited by jimmy188

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https://www.ipledgeprogram.com/Documents/Ro...e%20InsertI.pdf

266 Inflammatory Bowel Disease

267 Accutane has been associated with inflammatory bowel disease (including

268 regional ileitis) in patients without a prior history of intestinal disorders. In some

269 instances, symptoms have been reported to persist after Accutane treatment has

270 been stopped. Patients experiencing abdominal pain, rectal bleeding or severe

271 diarrhea should discontinue Accutane immediately (see ADVERSE

272 REACTIONS: Gastrointestinal).

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THEY PROBABLY DO KNOW HOW TO CURE ACNE BUT ITS ALL ABOUT $$$ UNFORTUNEATLY. :cry:

I don't think a cure would stay hidden if it was known.

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i disagree. acne is a billion dollar business. if they had one cure with no side effects all the other acne companies would go out of business.

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i disagree. acne is a billion dollar business. if they had one cure with no side effects all the other acne companies would go out of business.

Yeah, but if there was such a cure, it would infinitely more marketable than accutane, people would pay good money for it, and the company would never go out of business as more teenagers and adults develop acne every year.

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i disagree. acne is a billion dollar business. if they had one cure with no side effects all the other acne companies would go out of business.

Yeah, but if there was such a cure, it would infinitely more marketable than accutane, people would pay good money for it, and the company would never go out of business as more teenagers and adults develop acne every year.

Agree.

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how do you become an acne cure doctor btw anyone know? lol. what is the profession called?

i would love that job... i like learning about acne. i know kinda weird. lol

Is it molecular biology ?

Edited by Acnesucks33

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