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oli girl

'Accutane debate placeholder thread'

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Yes, it has been linked to them. Again remember it's not just during treatment this can occur, but AFTER. So if you suddenly have brilliant cleark skin, from taking accutane, and a year later after finishing your course you experience depression/other side effects - there is still a strong possibility they could or could not be linked. It is however a known and proven side effect.

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K, just wanna say something I noticed. The side effects of :depression, worthlessness, suicidal thoughts, and being lethargic are all also side effects of people who have bad acne without accutane.

I'm sure this has been discussed, but are we sure the pills bring about those side effects?

That's what my derm said when I asked questions about accutane and depression as I was a bit worried (I was already extremely depressed at this point, and pretty suicidal at times.. I didn't want some pills to push me over the edge).

To be honest, I don't think accutane had any effect on my depression. If anything it made me feel a bit better because it gave me hope. Although false hope, but still..

That's just my personal experience - there have been links made between accutane and depression.

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It has been a while since I posted on this thread and I must say wow things got really out of hand. I am just plan tired of people fear mongering about a drug and blaming their life woes on it. So here is all some final evidence regarding this subject! source

Premature epiphyseal closure was reported by Milstone[10] with high doses (3.5 mg/kg/day) over multiple years. Dr. Orlow related that this has not been reported with the use of Accutane for acne vulgaris at standard doses and with standard duration of therapy. A recent study sponsored by Roche (unpublished data) showed no change in mean bone mineral density (BMD) with isotretinoin therapy, although a small percentage of patients had elevated or decreased BMD compared with BMD measures at the beginning of the study.

Another piece of evidence is that quite frankly hundreds of thousands of adolescent boys/girls have taken accutane and the fact of the matter is that there is only 2 known clinical incidents that prove this condition. These incidents came in the 1980's when does control was absent. And at this time the FDA was going through a Scare period because they were getting sued left and right in the 80's. So they put every possible side effect and warnings on all medication. Okay so this is done, hear that Oil girl or is your ignorance causing deafness! :snooty:

PS- I actually grew 3 cm while on accutane

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I don't know why your attacking me. I guess the OP is just making things up....There is nothing to debate on this issue.

It has been long known that retinoids and Vit A toxicity can cause this. You can take regular Vit A in a high dose (which accutane is) and have the same thing happen. Google it

Provide links Please to theese so called studies you reffering to, Or the titles and info on the journals.

Just b/c it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't or can't happen.

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I don't know why your attacking me. I guess the OP is just making things up....There is nothing to debate on this issue.

It has been long known that retinoids and Vit A toxicity can cause this. You can take regular Vit A in a high dose (which accutane is) and have the same thing happen. Google it

Provide links Please to theese so called studies you reffering to, Or the titles and info on the journals.

Just b/c it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't or can't happen.

LOL, oli girl got owned :snooty: , Also I would like make note that you actually were kinda talking trash about him, taunting him about him not coming back with evidence while he was gone, so you kind of asked for that response.

Also, we're not defending the position that this closure does'nt happen, we're defending the point that it does'nt happen often or consistantly enough for it to warrant some of the absolutly bloody ridiculous things I've read on this thread like "regular bone checks" or "height checks everyday".

I swear from reading this waste of space thread I culminated the thought in my mind that I really would get premature Ephyiseal closure and it's like a 90% chance of getting it, when that's far from the truth and the most ironic thing is that the original poster of this thread has no scientfic evidence to prove that accutane really did cause his kids closure. This in any scientific place would be laughed out immediatly.

Hey maybe I will get premature closure, but I'm happy with my over 6ft height, and there will still always be 90% of people out there who take accutane and still won't get it.

The most funny thing though is that you paint roche as being this "fraud" company, when really you are the frauds, you're deliberatly misleading people and putting ideas into peoples minds because you had a bad expierence with accutane, accept the fact that you were un-lucky and move on with your life, there's nothing more sad than a broken record.

Sorry for that, but it had to be said.

Oh and before I'm finished with this stupid subject, here's the link to the study that letsgopatriots quoted from:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/442548_4

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Sorry, but nothing came up.....Besides I can post 5 to that showing studies of ephyiseal closure and other bone problems, besides it is well known it can cause problems.

Roche is a fraud and they were fined billion dollars for it, and just recently have to pay 33 million for hiding info that it caused Accutane caused IBD/Chron's. Roche isn't the only Pharma Fraud, Many are......

Were the fraud, right cause it not a borken record to hear the same questions, listening to people post the same side effects over and over, (kinda ironic). Watch people just blow it off like nothing.

Besides I believe I said that it doesn't happen to everyone, but that it can happen.

Anyways, I don't have time to debate something that is not debatable....I really could care less.

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boy am i glad that i waited to take accutane now i mean even when i was 16 i was 6 feet but ive grown two almost three inches and i am now close to 6 3 and being 19 i dont expect to grow to much more if any so you young people should take a look at this try every thing u can and if your still dealing with acne like i am wait till your 19 20 years old to take it. no accutane did your son grow at all on it or since?

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Sorry, but nothing came up.....Besides I can post 5 to that showing studies of ephyiseal closure and other bone problems, besides it is well known it can cause problems.

Roche is a fraud and they were fined billion dollars for it, and just recently have to pay 33 million for hiding info that it caused Accutane caused IBD/Chron's. Roche isn't the only Pharma Fraud, Many are......

Were the fraud, right cause it not a borken record to hear the same questions, listening to people post the same side effects over and over, (kinda ironic). Watch people just blow it off like nothing.

Besides I believe I said that it doesn't happen to everyone, but that it can happen.

Anyways, I don't have time to debate something that is not debatable....I really could care less.

The reason why you can't see the link is because you have to sign up for it, and I suggest you do before you get brutally pwnd anymore :D , it does'nt matter oli girl if you pull up 20, 30 or 40 studies to compare to mine, it does'nt make you the winner of this debate simply because all of these studies don't prove the fact that Ephyiseal closure happens commonly enough like you're trying to make out, so quit trying to mislead people in believeing it.

Once again, I'm not debating the fact that it does'nt happen, so stop putting words into my mouth.

You have to understand, that you have presented no evidence that suggests that ephyiseal closure is common, end of. If something is rare why does it consider this amount of hostility?

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1. You obvouisly can't read cause I posted directly out of Roche information that's printed with accutane. (which u won't find online since Roche took thier prodcut off the market and took down thier website regarding accutane.)

2. I never said that it was sooo common that it would happen to everyone who wasn't done growing. So Stop putting Words In My Mouth.

3. It can and has caused Ephyiseal closure, in fact Vit A toxicity list it as a side effect. Teens who are not done growing should be aware that it can happen, though it doesn't mean it will happen to everyone who is not done growing.

Maybe some this needs to be sent to the debate thread and quit clogging up the OP thread, whoose son got ephyiseal closure from accutane.

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Stop with the personal attacks of "you're ignorant and can't read blah blah blah". The next ones to come out will earn a 3 day suspension. Debate away, but be civil, please.

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Ok so I did not write this article but for those of you who are thinking about taking Accutane I think you will find this to be the most valuable piece of information you may ever read.

Written by the Acne.org user NCC who was banned for trolling, however I still believe that he had something very important to say. Here it is.

Hopefully nobody at Roche reads this,

For all of you that are currently on Accutane or thinking about taking it, this is the most important thing you will ever read in your life,

I want you all to specifically ask your Dermatologists this question “what is the mechanism by which Accutane works to reduce acne?†In fact while you guys are at it, ask every Dermatologist in the nation "what is the bio-mechanism of how Accutane actually works to (sometimes permanently) reduce acne and dry out people's skin?" You know what their response will be? It'll be something like this, "uhhh, I don't know for sure, Roche states in the Physician's Desk Reference that the exact mechanism of action is unkown, but we definitely know that it is excellent against acne." The American Academy of Dermatology's usage of Accutane during the past 25 years can be summed up as, we don't know how this chemotherapy drug works to reduce acne, but we'll go ahead and dish it out to millions of healthy young people anyway.

Not to be cocky or anything, but I know more about Accutane than anybody else on this board and probably more than any Dermatologist, because Derms get all of their information from Roche drug sales reps and never conduct any due diligence of their own. I’ll destroy anybody that tries to debate me about anything related to Accutane. I’ve written a well referenced comprehensive 50 page report on Accutane’s history and pharmacology that is now making the rounds all over the internet. In this report I’ve provided a very strong hypothesis for Accutane’s mechanism of action that I discovered by researching Accutane’s role in chemotherapy (I essentially discovered how Accutane works in chemotherapy against cancer) Several doctors have read my report and they’ve all said that it sounds very promising as an explanation for the mechanism of action.

Part of the reason why this trash has managed to remain on the market for so long is because the side effects have been dramatically downplayed by a lot of people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Whenever something bad gets reported in the press, the spin usually diverts the attention AWAY from Accutane, instead of focusing the attention on the biological causation evidence of the side effects.

So the question is, what’s it going to take to wake everyone up!!! This is specifically why I’ve written my report. The truth is that Roche does know how Accutane works, they've known for the past 25 years, they've known ever since they developed different retinoids (like Accutane) to be used in chemotherapy, but do you think that they ever wanted this information to be widely known by everybody? Do you think that they want people to know that Accutane dramatically reduces cell division / proliferation in several different areas all over the human body? Not a chance, because then nobody would ever want to take Accutane and they'd be out billions of dollars.

Once more is understood about Accutane's mechanism of action, nobody will ever want to take it, and those who have already taken it will have to live with the consequences of knowing that they've exposed themselves to a powerful cell-proliferation reducing chemotherapy drug that has damaged their body at the cellular/DNA level and depending on the extent of the damage, possibly shortened their life expectancy. That's how it works to reduce acne. But this critical information has never been disclosed to acne patients because Roche has always used the lame excuse in the Physician's Desk Reference that "the exact mechanism of action is unkown."

Them stating that “the exact mechanism of action is unknown†for the past 25 years is just a ruse to distract people from learning the information that the systemic cell division reducing effect of retinoic acid is specifically what’s responsible for making their acne go away and causing a lot of the side effects. In a study that can be found on PubMed, Scientist James Crandall states point blank how Accutane works and what’s causing the side effects.

"Retinoic acid (active form of Accutane) induces differentiation and reduces proliferation of stem and progenitor cells. It works on acne by inducing similar events in basal sebocytes. These same actions also lead to 13-cis-retinoic's (Accutane’s) side effects, and these are directed towards proliferating cells in the adult such as in the skin, gut and bone."

"A wide ranging effect of retinoic acid is to inhibit proliferation in dividing cells, and this accounts for its frequent consideration as an anti-cancer agent."

Being a systemic chemotherapy agent, Accutane does NOT know the difference between cancer (cancer is a group of renegade cells dividing out of control) and your body’s own rapidly dividing cells. With the knowledge that many parts of the human body (such as the skin, digestive tract, bone, lungs, mucous membranes, and sexual organs) rely on rapid and plentiful cell division/proliferation/mitosis to sustain their proper function throughout a person’s lifetime, this information about retinoic acid having a “chemotherapy like†cell division reducing effect becomes extremely important. Because it means that if you take too much Accutane for too long of a period of time, you are essentially slowing down or stopping cell division in areas of your body where cells are supposed to remain dividing for your entire lifetime. In my opinion this is what is causing a lot of the chronic long term side effects, these people basically have the opposite problem that people with cancer have. My explanation for the mechanism of action involves human telomerase reverse transcriptase (hTERT), the chief regulator of cell division in our body’s rapidly dividing cells. It has already been shown that retinoic acid down-regulates hTERT in cancerous cells, leading to telomere shortening, growth arrest and cell death, but what’s to say that this effect doesn’t also occur in our body’s own rapidly dividing cells? This evidence is sufficient to call for an investigation of Accutane’s effects on hTERT in the human leukocytes (white blood cells), enterocytes (gut), keratinocytes (skin) and basel sebocytes (oil glands).

Here are the two studies that are the smoking gun for Accutane’s mechanism of action, if anybody wants a more in-depth explanation, give me your email and I’ll send you my report. I’ve written everything in simple straightforward language and it’s not that hard to understand

Retinoids down-regulate telomerase and telomere length in a pathway distinct from leukemia cell differentiation

"A second pathway of hTERT regulation, identified in the RAR-responsive, maturation-resistant NB4-R1 cell line, results in a down-regulation of telomerase that develops slowly during two weeks of all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA) treatment. This pathway leads to telomere shortening, growth arrest, and cell death, all events that are overcome by ectopic expression of hTERT.â€

Here's another interesting quote from the scientific abstract of a study. I’ve provided the link to this study below,

Telomerase targeting by retinoids in cells from patients with myeloid leukemias of various subtypes, not only APL

"These results support the idea that, by hTERT targeting, retinoids can induce telomere shortening and cell death and their integration in therapy protocols for myeloid leukemias refractory to maturation should be considered."

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I'm on my 3rd month of accutane so my attention span is low.

Can I get the clifnote version of this THEORY.??

1) You're gonna die

2) Accutane might make you die earlier, but with clear skin.

3) Some people have acute reactions to accutane, and come on the internet to bitch about it, discourage others through fear tactics, and generally just troll because that's what the internet is good for.

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1. I don't even know why this got thrown in the debate thread, when the orginal thread is still out there. http://www.acne.org/messageboard/NCC-post-...html&hl=Ncc

Not to mention noone was debating...

2. The person who has done the study and soon to have it published did not orginally or ever post it on acne.org and the reason for why Morgeno did is discussed above, also You can find where the report is posted in the thread link above.

3. Basically in summary it explains who Accutane works as a chemotherapy drug, which yes it is and was orginally used for cancer.

Edited by oli girl
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The hair loss thing really sucks though with this drug. I mean you take Accutane to make you less depressed by getting rid of the acne, but it makes you depressed again because now you're losing your hair.

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A recent study showed that 80 percent of all Isotretinion users have mild-moderate acne (Leeds Universtiy Hospital). Congressional studies and other studies alike estimate that between 60 and 85 percent of Isotretinion users have mild to moderate acne. Isotretinion is only intended to treat severe acne--thus, companies like Mylan, Barr, and Actavis are able to make profits off of Isotretinion because dermatologists are violating the Hippocratic Oath and failing to do their jobs. What I'm trying to tell all of you is not "DONT TAKE ISOTRETINION", rather it is "DONT BLINDLY PUT YOUR FATE IN THE HANDS OF DERMATOLOGISTS WHO AREN"T LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR BEST INTERESTS". Question your dermatologist about Isotretinion, and more importantly, ask yourself the question: "Do I need to ingest one of the most powerful drugs on the market to "cure" some red marks that are on my skin"? Let me remind all of you that acne is natural, and humans have been getting acne from the day that humans were put on this earth. More importantly, let me remind all of you that most teenage acne fades away around the age of twenty. I will say "DONT TAKE ISOTRETINION" to all those teenagers out there who have mild-moderate acne. Isotretinion is not for you, and even though you may be suffering socially because of your acne, your acne will most likely pass in a few years. There are many products out there and I urge you to try as many as you can before deciding to take this drug. Let me also ask all of you thinking about taking isotretinion this : How do you know that isotretinion is being produced in a safe manner? Does anybody here remember the whole Rambaxy/Sotret debacle? As we know, the FDA has been a pretty shitty regulatory agency over these past few years. Be a smart consumer; I wasn't.

Edited by yowasup
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I do agree with you to a certain extent on the teenager part about just dealing with acne for a while and waiting til late teens or whenever for it to pass. For example I wouldn't want my daughter to be on it when she's 16-17 if she had mild-moderate acne. But when you hit the age of ~21 things change a lot. Mild-moderate acne becomes something that won't just "come and go" like a teenager growing up.

Let me ask you this... What is the difference between someone lets say 22 years of age having mild (or moderate acne), as opposed to having extreme acne? I mean really is there a difference when you think about it? The lack of confidence along with everything bad acne brings into someones life will still be there with them regardless of how "severe" or "mild" their acne may be. Acne is acne. Accutane is taken to cure those un-wanted effects that acne brings into someones life by curing the acne.

When people take Accutane, its about the pursuit of a better quality of life. Not just to "cure some red spots" as you worded it.

edit: also, the derm part of your argument.. that's pretty much all opinion/propaganda.

Edited by Jxr
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I pretty much agree with Jxr.

And I respect yowasup's opinion.

However, I would like to share mine.

Accutane has been on the market since 1982, and Roche alone treated over 13 million successful patients with it. It is a serious drug, but if it truly ruined lives then it would not be on the market (despite how "terrible" the FDA is, it would not let a drug be on the market for 27 years). Dermatologist are becoming more liberal in prescribing it because they have seen so much success with it and little or no repercussions from its use. My derm has treated hundreds, if not thousands with it and he says that the aside from dryness the only serious side effect he's encountered has been one girl who had suicidal thoughts....and her father passed away while she was on the course. He said for that reason, he is prescribing it to patients with persistent moderate acne now.

I would never let my child take this drug while in high school. However, when one gets to college,has moderate to severe acne and has tried everything in the book besides accutane, it is time to make an important decision. Take the risk of using a potentially life altering drug, or shut up and live with your acne.

At 19 years old, I had to make that decision. I went my freshman year in college without taking accutane because I was giving my acne one more chance to clear up on its own. It didn't, and now I'm taking clavaris. I would be lying to you if I told you I'm not scared, but i made the decision and it wasn't a rash one by any means.

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I agree with "yowasup". Accutane is intended for severe cases not the light ones. Accutane is not the best solution for acne because it just patch the problem and could have side effects ... and people go for it in several tours.

I think that antibiotics taken properly and after that a good regimen can help to control acne. And for those hard cases, accutane (or the pill for a woman).

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I do agree with you to a certain extent on the teenager part about just dealing with acne for a while and waiting til late teens or whenever for it to pass. For example I wouldn't want my daughter to be on it when she's 16-17 if she had mild-moderate acne. But when you hit the age of ~21 things change a lot. Mild-moderate acne becomes something that won't just "come and go" like a teenager growing up.

Let me ask you this... What is the difference between someone lets say 22 years of age having mild (or moderate acne), as opposed to having extreme acne? I mean really is there a difference when you think about it? The lack of confidence along with everything bad acne brings into someones life will still be there with them regardless of how "severe" or "mild" their acne may be. Acne is acne. Accutane is taken to cure those un-wanted effects that acne brings into someones life by curing the acne.

When people take Accutane, its about the pursuit of a better quality of life. Not just to "cure some red spots" as you worded it.

edit: also, the derm part of your argument.. that's pretty much all opinion/propaganda.

I agree. Someone who has been suffering from moderate acne for a long period of time and is no longer a teenager should consider accutane. The derm part of my argument isn't opinion at all. The fact of the matter is that the majority of accutane prescriptions are for TEENS with mild-moderate acne. And since accutane isn't intended to treat mild-moderate acne, especially in teens, dermatologists haven't been following accutane warnings and guidelines. I don't see how that's propaganda... it's a fact.

Edited by yowasup
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