Jump to content
Acne.org
Search In
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Recommended Posts

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor, just an idiot on the Internet. Do nothing without consulting a doctor. I assume you are otherwise healthy and have all the body parts you were born with. I assume you are an adult.

Hypothesis: A significant percentage of chronic acne has zinc metabolism at its root. Specifically, a failure to generate sufficient zinc superoxide dismutase (ZSOD) every night is the proximal cause. Relatively simple diet/lifestyle changes should be able to correct this problem and drastically reduce or eliminate acne. The most obvious way to have insufficient ZSOD is to have insufficient zinc, but simply increasing supplemental zinc is not an acne cure for most people (please don't go take a bunch of zinc and then tell me it didn't work -- that's what I just said!). Multiple factors can interfere with the absorption of zinc. The nightly surge of pineal melatonin is key to stimulating cells to produce ZSOD. The production of melatonin requires healthy levels of serum tryptophan. Multiple factors can interfere both with absorbing tryptophan from diet, and with the production of melatonin from it. All the points in the regimen below relate directly to the desire to increase the nightly production of ZSOD.

Regimen:

I've pointed directly to specific products only because people invariably ask for a pointer. These are not affiliate links; I make no money and have no affiliation with the vendor(s).

  • Meats before sweets. (or "protein before sugars" if you're a vegetarian). Sugars (both fructose and lactose, at least) may interfere with the absorption of tryptophan (a protein you have to get from food, required to create melatonin) and zinc from your diet, making them a double whammy. The solution is to simply postpone eating sugars until the protein has got a running head start to the intestine. Don't drink a drop of the soft drink in your fast food meal until you've eaten everything else. Don't have fruit as an appetizer before a meal, or with the proteins in your meal. Get that protein to the gut first and get the tryptophan/zinc digested before the sugars can interfere. If you taste something sweet, you should be able to look down at your plate and see no remaining sources of protein! Vegetarians statistically have more difficulty getting enough tryptophan, but even for them separating protein from sugars may help.
  • Take a B complex pill The Vitamin B family can help both with the absorption of zinc and tryptophan, and may be synergistic with zinc in the skin directly against acne. Take it on an empty stomach just before bedtime with your zinc pill. Vegetarians may need more effort here too, since it appears they may get less B6 effectively, even if it's technically in their diet. I recommend this one.
  • Take a 50mg zinc supplement The form of zinc doesn't matter except that zinc sulfate is associated with upset stomach. Take it on an empty stomach, just before bedtime. I recommend this one. Apparently, outside the U.S., it's common to (mis)label zinc supplements by listing the dose of the molecule the zinc is complexed with rather than the dose of zinc. Read your labels closely if you're outside the U.S. to see that you're getting 50mg of zinc (aka "elemental zinc").
  • Take a 200mcg selenium pill Selenium may be crucial to moving zinc from the metallothionein pool into ZSOD. I recommend this one.
  • Have healthy Vitamin D levels (>=50ng/ml) The Vitamin D Council has all the answers to your questions on Vitamin D. You can't know how much Vitamin D to take without getting a blood test, sorry. Vitamin D may be important to absorbing zinc.
  • Restrict or eliminate caffeine My suspicion is that you can sneak a lot of caffeine and stay acne-free so long as you cut it off 8 hours before bedtime to avoid screwing up your melatonin cycle. However, if you're sick and tired of acne, go extreme and eliminate caffeine altogether; you can always re-introduce it later.
  • Regular, long sleep in darkness The goal is not sleep, but a healthy surge of nighttime melatonin. You can make your sleep ineffective against acne by going to bed at different times every night. You can make your sleep ineffective against acne by sleeping few hours. You can make your sleep ineffective against acne by letting any light hit your eyes while you're asleep (sunlight, electronic gadget light, turning on the lights to go to the bathroom, even the crack of light below a door can suppress melatonin).

    I sleep 9 hours per night, go to bed at the same time each night, and wear this heavy-duty sleep mask so that even if some light gets into the room, it doesn't get a chance to suppress my melatonin.

  • No Dairy If you don't already know that dairy doesn't affect your acne, then eliminate it. If you don't eliminate it, at least remember that it contains sugar (lactose). So, don't have dairy with/before a meal containing protein. Let that protein (hopefully containing some tryptophan) get a chance to get digested before you eat/drink the lactose. Butter tends to not be lactose-heavy, and I doubt it's essential to avoid it religiously.

Revision notes:

My understanding of the relationship between sugars and tryptophan has greatly increased. Before, I was focused on increasing evening tryptophan. Now, I believe the root problem is getting enough from the diet into the bloodstream at every meal. This actually makes things less restrictive, it's much easier to deny yourself the order of eating foods than to deny yourself particular foods. It's also worth noting that tryptophan could be the key mechanism that ties acne and depression together, since it turns into serotonin in the brain before being converted to melatonin. Discovering that fructose might be able to block zinc as well as tryptophan immediately made me wonder if this was a primary factor in acne, and self-experiment seems to initially confirm that. Fingers crossed and ask me in a month, but it sure looks like just changing the ordering of my foods is the key to letting me be acne-free with only 50mg zinc/day.

Fructose use has exploded in civilized society, simply because sweetness sells. Health nuts are often obsessed with "high-fructose corn syrup", but fruits have been relentlessly bred for higher sugar content (many apples have huge fructose/glucose ratios), and modern technology lets us pound down sugar-laden fruits year-round rather than just in season and in moderation. A mere two generations ago, an orange might have been the primary Christmas present for a child living at a relatively high latitude in the United States, such was the relative access to fruits out of season. Thus, whether you eat at McDonald's every day or live the holier-istic-than-thou lifestyle of purity in thought/deed/colon, you probably imbibe way more fructose than the acne-free neo-Paleolithic tribes do.

How long would you have to wait after eating protein before eating sugars for this to work? I have no idea, but even though it seems nuts, just postponing my soft drink until I've finished off those yummy hamburgers seems to do the trick. If I were vegetarian (and therefore starting with less tryptophan entering my mouth in the first place), I might try to put more of a delay in (or even look at taking a tryptophan or 5-HTP pill in the evenings, distant from any fructose consumption). I still have maple syrup, razzberries, and blueberries on my crammed-with-wheats/grains pancakes, but I doubt there's much tryptophan in that meal anyway. If you're a meat eater, the meat is the key source of tryptophan and the key thing to keep fructose away from it.

Although far from proven to myself, tinkering has indicated that selenium and B6 were the relevant chemicals in my pill box most influential on the effectiveness of supplemental zinc. Thus, discovering that selenium is a key to the transport of zinc from one zinc compartment to ZSOD sold me on the idea that selenium is relevant to zinc's effect on acne.

Dairy continues to be on my to-research list. Realizing that there's a good chance that lactose may just behave like fructose in terms of blocking tryptophan and zinc absorption could be the end of the story, but my personal experience with the virulence with which dairy induces acne makes me suspect there's more. Maybe bovine chemicals make it into the bloodstream and manage to deplete significant amounts of zinc. Or maybe one of the exotic theories that people like Cordain put forth are actually true and it has nothing to do with zinc. I haven't given up on being able to someday eat ice cream without getting acne, but I sure don't know how to do that at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please emphasize that this is your latest hypothesis that you are only beginning to test. I don't think people got that from your other threads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

databased i think you may be on to something with Vitamin D, it just seems to make sense. I somehow came across your "work" after spending too many hours messing around on the internet and hopefully you are close to working to things out.

I suffer from a lot of digestive problems such as pain, bloating, gas etc and think these may be closely linked to my acne as i there does seem to be a correlation between them ( could all be coincidence i know )

I hear what you are saying about the order in which we should digest sugar and proteins but i was thinking that maybe it should be the other way around? I only say this, because from what i have read, we digest sugars much quicker than proteins. I don't know if there is any science behind it but i have heard of people talking about fruit and sugars fermenting when they are are eaten after protein ( which leads to gas and bloating etc).

I have had some success with food combining in helping to relieve my stomach problems and it does seem to help my acne when i stick to it but to be honest i think i would go mad if i had to stick to it completly.

I think maybe that how you eat your food rather than what you eat could play a role in acne?

Ie there maybe something to "food combining" when it comes to acne?

If we do digest things diferently then this could affect how we absorb nutrients from food and then lead to deficiencies as you have mentioned.

I hear what you are saying about fructose and that the amount in fruits we grow has increased but i find it hard to believe that fructose in its self has anything to do with acne and maybe its eating fruit (fructose) in combination with other foods that is causing the problem.

I see alternativista that you say that oranges triggered your worst acne, maybe it is the combination of oranges with other foods rather than oranges themselves that cause the acne?

I only say this because i know that oranges and citrus fruits in particular are what cause my worst stomach problems but i think this maybe because i am combining them with the wrong food types. (probably has nothing to do with it - just a suggestion)

If neo-Paleolithic tribes are acne free then the key to acne lies with them. It makes sense that they get a lot more Vitamin D than us, i wonder in what order and combinations they eat there food?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I suffer from a lot of digestive problems such as pain, bloating, gas etc and think these may be closely linked to my acne as i there does seem to be a correlation between them ( could all be coincidence i know )

Those symptoms are consistent with fructose malabsorption, which is the proposed mechanism for making acne sufferers both tryptophan and zinc deprived (not to mention depressed).

I hear what you are saying about the order in which we should digest sugar and proteins but i was thinking that maybe it should be the other way around?

There could be other reasons to eat in other orders, but for the specific purpose of not being deprived of zinc and tryptophan, this order is the only one that makes sense. I will note that in my personal, single data point, I actually see significantly less intestinal symptoms by using this order. I don't suffer from a lot of pain/bloating/gas, but having a 32-ounce Coke with a giant burrito would pretty much guarantee me tossing and turning that night with gas. I did that a couple of days ago with the Coke delayed 30 minutes, and saw very little problem. YMMV, try it and see.

I hear what you are saying about fructose and that the amount in fruits we grow has increased but i find it hard to believe that fructose in its self has anything to do with acne and maybe its eating fruit (fructose) in combination with other foods that is causing the problem.

The logic goes likes:

a) I know zinc is implicated in my acne because I can be 100% clear on 200mg/day and stop all new acne within 48 hours.

b) Real scientists with beards believe fructose malabsorption can block the absorption of zinc.

Pretty simple logic.

I have had some success with food combining in helping to relieve my stomach problems and it does seem to help my acne when i stick to it but to be honest i think i would go mad if i had to stick to it completly.

I hear ya. I have very little food discipline myself. However, if you can't delay the sweet parts of a meal for 15 minutes to reduce acne, all I can say is acne doesn't affect your life nearly as much as it does mine. :D

If neo-Paleolithic tribes are acne free then the key to acne lies with them. It makes sense that they get a lot more Vitamin D than us, i wonder in what order and combinations they eat there food?

I doubt it matters. They have access to a fraction of the fructose that we do. They eat their meat (zinc/tryptophan source) way less cooked (well, lower temperatures anyway) and processed. AFAICT, caffeine is not a morning-to-dusk ritual there. Their food supply is not depleted of zinc and selenium from 100 years of industrialized farming. They have no choice but to go to bed at the same time every day, sleep long and hard, and in complete darkness. It's also not clear how fructose malabsorption has come to be present in ~60% of the civilized population, whether it's genetic or bacterial or a result of growing up with modern diet/environment or something else. The neo-Paleolithics may simply not exhibit the condition of fructose malabsorption at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please emphasize that this is your latest hypothesis that you are only beginning to test. I don't think people got that from your other threads.

Naw, you're thinking of holistic diet/lifestyle approaches that may take weeks to see some improvement. As you've stated before, you don't believe it matters what causes acne. However, that's all that matters to me, and I'm doing specific chemistry experiments here based on a specific theory of the chemical process of acne, so I have my (personal) test results quick. This is the adult forum where everybody knows what "hypothesis" means (or can look it up) and knows that wacky proposed treatments for acne on the Internet may not work for them. :D

By "quick", I mean days. If you have healthy Vitamin D levels (>=50ng/ml) and a regular sleep cycle in place (the only 2 things that require time to establish), this regimen should produce dramatic reduction in new acne within 5 days at most, else that's an unambiguous failure as far as I'm concerned. There is no place in this model for lengthy delays -- every night is a chance to either manufacture the chemicals required to avoid new acne or fail to, and the results are on your skin the next day. The only delays are those required to get your D levels up and have a normal sleep cycle.

I can't tell how important Vitamin D levels are in this regimen, since mine have been above 50ng/ml for years. It's possible that it's not crucial at all. If you don't know your levels but you at least have a regular sleep cycle, you might give it a 5 day try and, if there are no results, put it on the shelf until some future date when you have got your levels up.

As acne regimens go, it's pretty cheap, requires only the most modest sacrifice or discipline, and only takes a few days to test out for yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm like a psycho replier but I'm intelligent and have dealt with this shit longer than most and am gonna give this a try. Your post are very empirical and I appreciate your obsession as I have one similar, but am younger than you. Hopefully you can point us in the right direction before its to late. Look at my thread on resveratrol, cause thats the first supp to really make a difference and it has scientific research to back it up/. Its not good enough yet, but maybe with you, zink and VD3 we can be content. Take a looksy and let me know what you think. Ive tried everything else and the holistic health forum makes me feel like a degenerate so let me know if you can help figure this shit out.

Hers my thread, I appreciate your commitments as it could potentially help a lot of people in a very significant way.

Yours truly, JA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Databased,

Interesting stuff. When are you taking the selenium? And are you taking all 50mg of zinc just before sleep or in split doses? I am also curious what kind of success you have experienced with this (i.e., how long have you remained clear under this regimen).

Much thanks,

Nantucket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please emphasize that this is your latest hypothesis that you are only beginning to test. I don't think people got that from your other threads.

Naw, you're thinking of holistic diet/lifestyle approaches that may take weeks to see some improvement. As you've stated before, you don't believe it matters what causes acne.

No, that's not what I believe. However, I think it's unlikely most people will ever know. And the only time I ever said that here was when you implied there was some problem with a healthy diet in that the dieter wouldn't know what it was that cleared their skin. Also implying that it's one thing and not a variety of factors. Which it usually is.

However, that's all that matters to me, and I'm doing specific chemistry experiments here based on a specific theory of the chemical process of acne, so I have my (personal) test results quick. This is the adult forum where everybody knows what "hypothesis" means (or can look it up) and knows that wacky proposed treatments for acne on the Internet may not work for them. :D

Yes, they should know, but from reading replies in your threads, few people are getting that.

As acne regimens go, it's pretty cheap, requires only the most modest sacrifice or discipline, and only takes a few days to test out for yourself.

I already do take vitamin D, get sun, sleep as part of my healthy diet and lifestyle. And as a result, my skin is clear more than 99% of the time. But acne is not all that matters to me. It has far, far more valuable benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Databased after reading altenavistas post, I feel compelled to ask what kind of chemistry experiments you are doing, rather than only seeing how you respond to your evolving strategies.

And alternavista I think that we will undoubtedly know what cause acne eventually through genetically identifying it. Once the genome is more deciphered as it inevitably will I'm sure that at least babies will be able to to stare clear of the affliction all together. Unfortunately its probably not a priority for any lab doing that kind of research.

You need more guinea pigs that can talk databased! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Resveratrol I've taken, though not in that large of dose, and mainly because of in vitro evidence it is synergistic with Vitamin D against breast cancer cells. Anytime I see a plant compound synergistic (not just additive) with Vitamin D against cancer, I add it to the pill box or diet (resveratrol/breast, carnosic acid/leukemia, etc.).

I'm a little unenthusiastic about trying megadose resveratrol because I can't see how it gets me to my goal of understanding the underlying mechanism of acne. I don't see how the acne-free neo-Paleolithics could be getting such large doses, and barring the sudden revelation that that study was fudged and they really weren't all acne-free, I view them as a touchstone for any model of the underlying chemistry of the disease.

I used to always take my selenium pill with my other lunch-time pills, but recently started taking them in the evening with the zinc/B pills just to see if that made some noticeable difference, such as making red spots heal quicker. Haven't seen any particular difference; don't currently have a lot of reason to believe the timing matters with the selenium, since I don't know that it's as tricky to get absorbed through the gut lining as zinc is.

What's my status? First, in the big picture, I have to say that compared to 1 year ago when I was trying to control my acne via the usual diet/exercise/topicals, what I call an "outbreak" today is what I would have called "a good day" back then. AFAICT, when I follow the described regimen, new acne stops within 48 hours at the most. My face shows when I was on the regimen and when I fell off.

But what's more important to me in some sense is an increased sense of control. I messed up a few days ago, didn't postpone my Coke to the end of the meal, stayed up a couple of hours late, ate significant cheese two days in a row, and had not the slightest doubt that acne would appear, which it did. Back on the program, and I predicted there would be no new acne after 24 hours, and there wasn't.

In the old days, as I chased endless food "allergies" and other concepts, I would periodically get some sense of control ("Aha, just eat carrots and walnuts every day and acne is better!"), only to see some awful outbreak that showed I really didn't understand the disease at all. It's been a long time since I've seen new acne I didn't know was coming, or relied on any kind of severe diet restriction for help/hope. You can only extract so much useful information from a single patient, but it certainly feels like I'm groping in roughly the right direction to understand something about how acne works. The acid test is to get dramatic effects in other people with the simplest possible regimen -- that's the only way to see how far from or close to reality a model of acne is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

I'm following your progress with great enthusiasm but currently have some questions

Do you take Vitamin A daily? If yes, how much IU?

Currently, I'm taking 10000 IU a day from beta carotene pills. Is this ok?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And alternavista I think that we will undoubtedly know what cause acne eventually through genetically identifying it. Once the genome is more deciphered as it inevitably will I'm sure that at least babies will be able to to stare clear of the affliction all together. Unfortunately its probably not a priority for any lab doing that kind of research.

Well, I wasn't talking about the future, I was talking about us, here and now.

But we already do know some of the ways we are genetically predisposed to getting acne. The tendency towards hyperkeratinization is genetically influenced.

Also, some of us have more of the enzymes that convert testosterone to DHT than others. I don't know if anyone has researched if that's genetic, but since male pattern baldness seems to run in families, I think it's a good possibility.

But genetics is not the only issue. Just like with conditions like diabetes, heart disease, cancers, etc., genetics only counts for a small part in the odds of your developing acne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see alternativista that you say that oranges triggered your worst acne, maybe it is the combination of oranges with other foods rather than oranges themselves that cause the acne?

I only say this because i know that oranges and citrus fruits in particular are what cause my worst stomach problems but i think this maybe because i am combining them with the wrong food types. (probably has nothing to do with it - just a suggestion)

No. It has nothing to do with food combining. In fact I was eating an orange everyday as an afternoon snack when I figured it out. With no other food.

And you need to deal with your digestion issues. This is far more important than people seem to think. Food needs to be digested completely. Do not eat food you can't digest. And it may clear your skin if that's all that matters to you.

Have you tried avoiding gluten? From all the IBS/Leaky Gut and Celiac or other gluten intolerance sufferers and discussion threads, I've heard it said over and over that gluten damages the intestinal linings allowing undigested food particles into the blood stream causing all kinds of digestion problems and food intolerances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you take Vitamin A daily? If yes, how much IU?

Currently, I'm taking 10000 IU a day from beta carotene pills. Is this ok?

No Vitamin A in my pillbox; I eat carrots. Beta carotene is likely safer than large-dose Vitamin A, though multiple studies have shown increased risk of cancer in smokers taking beta carotene. I speculate that's because beta carotene may increase absorption of non-heme iron, and smokers (who always skew all cancer studies, which is why smoking is always controlled for) probably have more micro-cancer laying around that views extra iron as fertilizer. The NIH says there is no data to suggest a cancer risk for non-smokers from taking beta carotene.

The prospects that Vitamin A (retinol) can help acne seem dubious to me, despite it's popularity among patients. A study comparing 135mg zinc/day to the same zinc plus 300,000IU of retinol found that adding the Vitamin A brought no additional improvement. The lowered Vitamin A levels seen in acne patients may be an irrelevant downstream effect of the same process that leads to lowered zinc levels in acne patients.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you take Vitamin A daily? If yes, how much IU?

Currently, I'm taking 10000 IU a day from beta carotene pills. Is this ok?

No Vitamin A in my pillbox; I eat carrots. Beta carotene is likely safer than large-dose Vitamin A, though multiple studies have shown increased risk of cancer in smokers taking beta carotene. I speculate that's because beta carotene may increase absorption of non-heme iron, and smokers (who always skew all cancer studies, which is why smoking is always controlled for) probably have more micro-cancer laying around that views extra iron as fertilizer. The NIH says there is no data to suggest a cancer risk for non-smokers from taking beta carotene.

The prospects that Vitamin A (retinol) can help acne seem dubious to me, despite it's popularity among patients. A study comparing 135mg zinc/day to the same zinc plus 300,000IU of retinol found that adding the Vitamin A brought no additional improvement. The lowered Vitamin A levels seen in acne patients may be an irrelevant downstream effect of the same process that leads to lowered zinc levels in acne patients.

but then again, the 'magic bullet' aka accuratane is just intensive vitamin A in a pill, isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but then again, the 'magic bullet' aka accuratane is just intensive vitamin A in a pill, isn't it?

Vitamin A = retinol

Accutane = isotretinoin

Related, but not the same. There is a wild-assed theory I like (but surprisingly, did not invent!) that says that accutane actually works by damaging cells in the eye that suppress daytime melatonin. I like it both because it would support my theory that melatonin inducing ZSOD is crucial to avoiding acne, and because it would support my theory that most circadian joint pain is due to failure to suppress daytime melatonin. But it's a stretch. Unfortunately, you have to have a sleep lab to accurately inspect somebody's melatonin cycle, so nobody's ever looked at Accutane patients to see if theirs is abnormal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so basically, in terms of supplements, what is the essential stuff? 50mg zinc, 200mcg selenium, b complex and thats it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just wondering, for supplements, is it better to take 02 x 100 mcg or 01 x 200 mcg? I have always thought that it should be better to 'spread' out the intake throughout the day as it will maximise absorption by the body. What's your view on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, if you take the biggest megadose of Zinc, Vitamin D-3, or whatever supplement you decide to experiment with, unless you cut out or at least cut back on refined sugars, is going to be futile. Look at it this way, if you go to McDonald's to eat, and have a 32 oz. Coke with your meal, you're going to have acne. No amount of megadosing on anything is going to combat that. Beware of candy, cookies, doughnuts, cakes, pastries, ice cream and McDonalds hot apple & cherry pies. You're just providing a portal for acne to thrive on eating junk. This could be very difficult seeing they put sugar or some variation of it in everything, why...to make food taste good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I´m posting to say thank you to databased, for sharing your experiments about "zinc"with us. I'm following your thread with much interest. I´m 39 years, spanish girl, and I have suffered from acne, since I can´t remember.

But, I'm curious, do you keep improving with "zinc"? Do you have breakouts, and that's the reason you have to look for something else (Vitamine D...). Please, let us know your situation actually.

And you say you are not a doctor, but probably you have a degree in another career, please let me know if you don't mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
refined sugar does include white bread, rice and instant noodles, but excludes pasta etc right?

Refined carbs do include pasta, but some, like pasta and rice are better than others. You can look at a GI index to get an idea of the 'worst' but it is the GI of the whole meal that matters, so don't avoid nutrient dense foods just because of their GI, just combine them with low GI foods. Also, any food can have a high GI if you eat them in excessive amounts. It's really the Glycemic Load of the meal that matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Look at it this way, if you go to McDonald's to eat, and have a 32 oz. Coke with your meal, you're going to have acne. No amount of megadosing on anything is going to combat that.

Sorry, I've done exactly that every day and been acne-free for weeks at a time.

That kind of "I know if anyone does X they'll get acne" shows a complete failure to grasp how little is understood about the disease and how the symptoms can be made to correlate with everything and nothing at all. If sugar has some ability to influence symptoms, it absolutely positively cannot be a simple relationship for most acne sufferers -- unless you blithely ignore the evidence of real people's experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Personalized Advice Quiz - All of Acne.org in just a few minutes

×