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Bulgarian R.

Stem Cells for Acne Scar Repair (SCIENCE FACT, not science fiction!)

I've read some interesting articles lately about stem cells being trialled to regenerate spinal cord cells in humans and to restore eyesight in mice but I think we're looking at a good 10-15 years before we start getting products giving dramatic results in skin wounds. Even if someone tomorrow conducted a miracle study that improved scars 99% it would take 3-5 years to hit the market.

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That's not correct. Google Professor Augustinus Bader (University of Leipzig). He developed a treatment to heal wounds without scars at all!! There are already a few patients, that underwent the treatment, and it worked (it was in the news, german state television, THERE SHOULD BE A LINK, BUT SOMEHOW THEY ALWAYS DISAPPEAR)

There's is an ongoing clinical trial with burn victims.

Edited by dagobert

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3-5 years in the market? i dont belive this its not like stem cells was just discovered. there are already doing this practice in asia and europe. its only a matter of time before it comes to canada or u.s.a.

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I've read a lot about stem cell treatments, I've heard doctors say things... And from that I personally conclude that stem cell treatments fixing scars is not going to happen any time soon, if ever. Other things will happen and they might happen on the short term and they may eliminate scars but stem cell treatments... I think using stem cells by themselves in the first place isn't enough. Ugh, I remember the guy who started this thread giving everyone hope while he knew what he was saying wasn't 100% true. Not cool. He said to someone here "You can get your skin back the way it was." basically while he was talking basically about fat injections... lol Come on.

I firmly believe that scars can be fixed at some point but it's going to be done eventually by a treatment which will get some process going in people's bodies which may envolve stem cells but a treatment which uses stem cells first and foremost or only? Not going to happen.

Imo.

Edited by Lapis lazuli

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I've read a lot about stem cell treatments, I've heard doctors say things... And from that I personally conclude that stem cell treatments fixing scars is not going to happen any time soon, if ever. Other things will happen and they might happen on the short term and they may eliminate scars but stem cell treatments... I think using stem cells by themselves in the first place isn't enough. Ugh, I remember the guy who started this thread giving everyone hope while he knew what he was saying wasn't 100% true. Not cool. He said to someone here "You can get your skin back the way it was." basically while he was talking basically about fat injections... lol Come on.

I firmly believe that scars can be fixed at some point but it's going to be done eventually by a treatment which will get some process going in people's bodies which may envolve stem cells but a treatment which uses stem cells first and foremost or only? Not going to happen.

Imo.

The tratment is there, and it is based on stem cells. READ before you talk. Professor Augustinus Bader from the University of Leipzig has developed it, they showed everything on TV, wound healing process included!!!!

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For god's sake - NO!!!!

Bader is a reputable german scientist, he is working at a german university. He developed a METHOD (stem cells and cytokines applied to a support material matrix, that is placed on the wound). The trick is, to make the body believe, the wound is a very small wound, so it will heal scarless !!!!! Again: READ (all data about his science, and his method, which is called SANAMANDER, is also available in ENGLISH, which is quite common in SCIENCE)

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I tried to post links to his work many times, but they're always gone, as soon as I submit the post - I talked the acne.org guys many times about this problem.

Just look for Professor Augustinus Bader (University of Leipzig). Good articles about his work were published by some german newspapers like "Sueddeutsche Zeitung (SZ)", or "Die Welt", or in TV, for example on NDR (you can search google with "Prof. Augustinus Bader NDR", or "Prof. Augustinus Bader Sanamander").

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Most of the articels I've read about this are older than one year. Still this method hasn't been approved by any clinical studies.

Seems like bogus to me.

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There is a clinical study, ongoing. Currently the method is being tested on burn victims. (Average timespan for such a study: 1 - 5 years) And no, it is no bogus - under extraordianry circumstances, doctors can already use this. Just one example: On TV (NDR, german public television) they showed an old patient suffering from diabetes mellitus. He had a huge wound on one of his heels, that did not heal. Normally the established - conservative - treatment would be amputation - so this counts as 'extraordinary circumstances'. Then his doctor (who already knew about Prof. Bader and his new method of treatment) contacted Bader and so the patients heel was treated with the new method. A support material matrix was placed on the wound, then adult stem cells (I think extracted from the spine) were mixed with cytokines and applied to the matrix. The healing process was shown in fast forward. In the report Prof. Bader himself explains, how the method works; that it's actually quite a simple trick. - - Didn't you ever wonder, why relatively small wounds heal without leaving a scar, and why big ones don't?! The answer is quite simple. For our body a big wound (let's say everything above 2mm²) has to be closed quick to avoid blood loss and infection. But differentiation (subkutis, dermis, membranes, epidermis) needs time. Small wounds don't carry the risk of an unwanted high blood loss (coagulation!!), infection risk is also lower, so the time needed for differentiation is granted.

Baders method tricks the body - that's it. I would love to publish the link to the NDR multimedia archive, or the one from the newspaper, but somehow I am not able to.

So PLEASE search google "Prof. Augustinus Bader NDR", the result is on the first page and leads directly to the Video.

Edited by dagobert

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I just saw a bit of the video where they have an animation that shows the way it works. So at the end they show a wound getting smaller but not disappearing. It would have been refreshing if they instead of everyone else went all the way and just. said. it. worked. 100%. All this "Yeah, we have something that works. But..........it might not work 100% every time, if ever." is just kind of exhausting.

I don't have time to watch the whole thing properly right now but I'll get back to it later. Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting.

http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/visi...ersalbe101.html

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Hey Dagobert, could you translate the bit where they explain how it works in that video properly? From German to English? It's the "Das Verfahren" section which start at 3:30 in the video, I think.

Edited by Lapis lazuli

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I think I can, yes - but give me some time, because my internet connection is very slow at the moment, so loading the video would take a while. I' ll do it the next days. Anyways I already explained, how it works - at least partly.

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I think I can, yes - but give me some time, because my internet connection is very slow at the moment, so loading the video would take a while. I' ll do it the next days. Anyways I already explained, how it works - at least partly.

I'm gonna try to do it too. Let's see how good I am with this German. Das ist vielleicht nicht einfach. But I'm going to try anyway. ^^

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I saw the video and from the short animation you can tell that what he is performing is the PRP procedure. He takes the patients blood and puts it into a centrifuge to separate the blood from the platelet rich plasma, he then injects it to the damaged area. This is not new.

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I saw the video and from the short animation you can tell that what he is performing is the PRP procedure. He takes the patients blood and puts it into a centrifuge to separate the blood from the platelet rich plasma, he then injects it to the damaged area. This is not new.

Nein! Aka no. He's taking blood and then seperating the stem cells in the centrifuge. What happens from there on I kind of sort of understood but I'd have to see the video again before I can say what all that is.

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No, it's not. While showing that, the Off-comment tells you, that with this procedure stem cells are isolated (then mixed with cytokines and several other substances).

I still didn't have the time for translation, but please - to all the others - do not post unintelligent stuff like "...is PRP".

What you see, is german doctors, german scientists, german documentation broadcasted by public german tv - you can be ABSOLUTELY sure, that this is NO BOGUS (in Germany we would say Hokus Pokus).

This guy works for a big german university. It would be ridiculous to put him and his work in question. Have a look at the webpage of the science team, there you can see all the scientists, that took, and still take, part in this project.

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Ok, so what I think happens is that he takes adult stem cells from your blood and then multiplies them on a surface which is strangely made of bone? :think: The whole is then placed on the wound somewhat like a sheet along with several other things like erythropoietin. They then say that the body adds things naturally and together with everything that is added through the treatment the wound healing is enhanced/supported.

He compares what's need for wound healing to a cooking recipe and says that it is understood/seen more and more what the ingredients are so he took those and put them together in this treatment.

They're doing tests in hospitals right now to see "How well it REALLY works.".

This approach seems to me to have similarities to other treatments which have been proven to only do so much. Meaning, they don't do what we'd like them to do namely reverse the damage done. However, it might be so that this one works beautifully. I guess we'll have to wait and wait and wait and wait and see. lol

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I've read a lot about stem cell treatments, I've heard doctors say things... And from that I personally conclude that stem cell treatments fixing scars is not going to happen any time soon, if ever. Other things will happen and they might happen on the short term and they may eliminate scars but stem cell treatments... I think using stem cells by themselves in the first place isn't enough. Ugh, I remember the guy who started this thread giving everyone hope while he knew what he was saying wasn't 100% true. Not cool. He said to someone here "You can get your skin back the way it was." basically while he was talking basically about fat injections... lol Come on.

I firmly believe that scars can be fixed at some point but it's going to be done eventually by a treatment which will get some process going in people's bodies which may envolve stem cells but a treatment which uses stem cells first and foremost or only? Not going to happen.

Imo.

This thread still gives me hope. I've been following it for overr a year. I've read every one of Bulgarian R's (Bird) posts a couple of times trying to absorb as much information as I possibly can. Sometimes I was obsessively searching for technical details that I imagined I had originally missed, while at other times I just wanted to reconfirm what I already thought about a well presented hypothesis. Perhaps this was the way that my HOPE could have the necessary momentum to get me through tough times.

Lapis Lazuli, you are either intentionally disinforming people about what bird said, or you are unintentionally writing misinformative statements due to your limited knowledge. You say that Bird was talking about simple fat injections, even though in july of 2009 he explicitly stated the following,

"Post culturing, the procedure that I've developed involves four primary steps:

1) I perform subcision and needling at the site of each and every acne scar to be treated. This creates macro and micro damage at the deeper dermis and hypodermis levels. Inflammation occurs immediately.

2) Right after step (1) I inject a customized PRP solution that I've discussed before. The platelets aggregate at the site of injection and coagulate in and around the normal blood scaffold that has formed there from the subcision. As previously said, a concentrated number of growth factors is then naturally released by coagulating platelets that trick the body into thinking that there is a relatively serious injury in that particular area. At the same time additional GFs/proteins (artificially added to the PRP solution: TGF-b3, Thymosin-b4, Fetuin-A and Laminin 511) suppress hyper inflammation, which is itself counterproductive. They also help control the stem cell response. Right before injection the PRP is further enhanced by a injectable ECM solution that contains endogeneic ECM particulates.

3) I perform secondary subcision to recreate what I call endo-dermal pockets right through the already apparent haematoma. I then inject the stem cells into this same site. They are immediately guided by GF signalling in the area. Soon after they begin their work as they integrate themselves in the coagulated blood scaffold that is itself reinforced by the said ECM particulates.

4) 6 hours following the 3rd step I have patients undergo their first post treatment LLLT dose. This continues daily in the comforts of their own homes as they have personal LED panels with red and infrared light output. This helps to stimulate the regenerative histological activities post treatment and at the same time further controls the inflammation."

Can you explain to me how he is referring to fat injections? Can you tell me how he is simply saying that stem cells alone will do the trick when his methodology involves subcision, PRP, a cocktail of anti-inflammatory proteins including growth factors, ECM components and adipose derived stem cells?

He also mentioned that his procedure is designed to work as an enhanced filler for atrophic scarring, and he never mentioned scarless healing. He simply said that stem cells and the specific growth factors mentioned could remodel SOME of the scar tissue, and that the most important goal was to get near perfect flattening of the atrophied area with the rest of the skin. Anyone with boxscar and rolling acne scars knows this is by far the most important issue to resolve. If you need more quotes I can certainly post them here because it doesn't seem like you've read this thread in detail. Please don't post incorrect, perhaps even disingenuous information in this thread.

His procedure is in my opinion imprasctical because it's too complex and time consuming. Given the details he has provided I imagine it would cost upwards of $20,000 in the US. Although that sucks, I think Bird did his best to use current scientific knowledge and technical capabilities to do something inspirational and innovative.

Thanks and hello to everyone...

Edited by devil's pet

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Professor Bader also explains, that stem cells alone don't do the work. As he says, you only have to support the healing process in order to achieve a scarless healing. (Again: His method is based on stem cells, cytokines and a support material matrix)

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Professor Bader also explains, that stem cells alone don't do the work. As he says, you only have to support the healing process in order to achieve a scarless healing. (Again: His method is based on stem cells, cytokines and a support material matrix)

Isn't it intersting that what Bird said two years ago in this thread is only now starting to look credible by the medical community? What once seemed incredulous when he said it in the past is now apparently on the cusp of being mainstream. I find it particularly telling that more and more researchers and doctors are repeating today what Bird had been saying all along. Stranger still, they are "developing" methodologies that seem to copy Bird's to a T. It seems this thread has influenced people beyond the mere acne sufferer online social circle. That's the power of sharing knowledge on the net and utilizing patients to get the message out to their physicians. In my line of work we'd call it logistical crowdsourcing.

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