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User80848

NEW UPDATE: Truth about Lasers

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It's especially disappointing that Deep FX did not affect her enlarged pores at all. I don't believe those are actually acne scars but just aging cause I've seen them in people that never had acne.

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Guest missyjean130

I don't understand,I'm sorry.

Why exactly are the results not permanent?You'd think with all the peeling they'd be a bit more shallow...

Can someone explain?

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I don't understand what you expected from that lady in your link: look at her treatment history, it's quite extensive. Ablative CO2 is the gold standard treatment for acne scars, and she has had the procedure done twice. In fact, what she describes as "severe scarring", doesn't look much more than moderate now.

Punch graft/subcision + laser resurfacing is pretty much the SOP now because of minimal downtime. I have a completely different perspective from most of you as I'm a medical student and can peruse actual dermatology and facial PRS journals, so I'm pretty comfortable in knowing what results are achievable. Even then, everyone heals differently.

You need to find someone knowledgeable in the field with extensive experience. Personally, I don't really trust all of these "aesthetic center" operations. For instance, as for the two brothers at SkinNirvana, I couldn't find Richard's ABMS certification, and Kenneth set his to "private", but he's certified in Internal Medicine. They don't provide CV's, list throwaway journal publications, and make lofty claims. Dr. Richard Han received the "Dean's Award" at Rosalind Franklin (which as much as 1/3 the class could potentially receive) and claims to have served as an Associate Professor/Chief Resident (?) before entering private practice, which is an odd way of listing things.

Anyone can operate a laser, it's when complications arise that you really want a derm or facial PRS to be able to treat you. Now, this is all just from perusing his less-than-transparent website, he might be a great guy, but I'd try a few more consultations before settling on someone.

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Wonko what are you trying to prove with this post? Are you thinking that because she has the Deep FX procedure done that her scarring should be gone? The new fractional co2 lasers are new and I think that they are a the better option if one is choosing laser. I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here. I can see your point that swelling has a lot to do with it and that after a few months the results are not that great, but that can be said about a lot of scar treatments. The Deep FX or Fraxel Re:Pair are not the holy grail of scar treatments, but as for lasers they are getting a lot better. Do you realize the depth of which these lasers are removing tissue at. The Fraxel Re:Pair removes columns of tissue at depths of 1.6mm and the Deep Fx at 1mm. That is pretty impressive. The original CO2 laser ablated the entire surface at only 0.3mm. So you can see the difference right there. I see where you are trying to come from, but you seem a bit un-educated here. There is nothing out there to totally rid scarring. I still think that these new lasers can help more than any other laser out right now. You set tempo for negative thinking. You seem to have a lot of info on what not to do, so then what do you suggest is a good scar treatment option? You said you had Fraxel treatments done right, how many did you do? Please give more info on what you all had done as well.

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to me, her results look pretty good. considering it was a one time thing.

golfer, is that true about the depth that the newer lasers reach? i did a full face co2 back in 2005, and got garbage results. i wanna do total fx, cuz it sounds pretty good, but i was worried cuz it's part co2, so i wondered if i'd get similar results.

i sent some emails to doctors who do total fx, and i asked them if there's a difference between total fx and the old co2, in terms of mechanism and healing/revision (basicially, i wanted to know if different results could be expected from total fx than from co2). they just kinda told me that downtime is reduced (which really didn't answer my question).

sheit, if total fx (or re:pair, whatever) goes that much deeper than co2, i might be willing to consider it. although, my doc did go pretty deep on some areas of my face w/ the co2 (right after subcisions), and really, i didn't notice much improvement.

i also found that some doctors answer your first question, and if they decide that you're not a candidate for their place, they just kinda decide that they're done w/ you and ignore you from that point on.

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to me, her results look pretty good. considering it was a one time thing.

golfer, is that true about the depth that the newer lasers reach? i did a full face co2 back in 2005, and got garbage results. i wanna do total fx, cuz it sounds pretty good, but i was worried cuz it's part co2, so i wondered if i'd get similar results.

i sent some emails to doctors who do total fx, and i asked them if there's a difference between total fx and the old co2, in terms of mechanism and healing/revision (basicially, i wanted to know if different results could be expected from total fx than from co2). they just kinda told me that downtime is reduced (which really didn't answer my question).

sheit, if total fx (or re:pair, whatever) goes that much deeper than co2, i might be willing to consider it. although, my doc did go pretty deep on some areas of my face w/ the co2 (right after subcisions), and really, i didn't notice much improvement.

i also found that some doctors answer your first question, and if they decide that you're not a candidate for their place, they just kinda decide that they're done w/ you and ignore you from that point on.

Yes this is true. The depth of penetration is so much deeper than the original CO2 laser, its not even comparible. All the original CO2 laser does is ablate the entire surface layer of your face and not at deep level. Because it ablates the entire surface this why you have such a long healing time and potential risk of infection, scarring, and pigment problems. With the new fractional co2 lasers it not only uses co2 at a fractional approach, but by only ablating columns of tissue it allows these columns to go pretty deep. This is why I don't really understand where Wonko is coming from. This is very excting technology. I had the Fraxel Re:Pair done and so far am happy with the results. Are the results groundbreaking? No. I didn't expect this to be a magic wand. My first question was what is the difference betweens this laser and the older co2 laser and it both the depth of penetration and healing time. The healing time is quicker because of the fractional beams of co2. However when this laser is used to the most it is very powerful. I am still red in the highly treated areas and I had this done over 2 months ago. I was treated at the highest settings. I feel as though the info that wonko is giving is rather silly and un-educated. These kind of opinions don't mean anything to me and I know that my research on the topic proves my info correct. The depth of the Deep FX laser is 1mm and the dpeth of the Fraxel Re:Pair is 1.6mm. These are pretty impressive depths for co2 laser. The active fx and the mixto will not do much for scarring, unless it is superficial and more surface. The original co2 laser only goes at depths of around 0.3 which is what the active fx and mixto do at a fractional treatment. I Hope this helps. Do not listen to un-educated opinions.

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Wonko,

So are you saying in your posts that you are going to have the procedure done now? I am very confused with all of your posts and what you are trying to get across. I feel as though you posted these opinions will very little if any facts behind yourself. You went off a review from Realself.com I didn't see any problems or negativity in that review about the Deep FX. Yes she still has scarring after treatment, what did you expect? Really before you start laying down posts like this, you should really look into this more. Your claim about lasers is silly. Look into these new fractional co2 laser a bit more and educate yourelf. You don't need to just listen to your doctors, the info they are not telling you is out there and you can find it. Please I am curious to know how many of the Fraxel Re:Store treatments you had?

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Wonko what are you trying to prove with this post? Are you thinking that because she has the Deep FX procedure done that her scarring should be gone? The new fractional co2 lasers are new and I think that they are a the better option if one is choosing laser. I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here. I can see your point that swelling has a lot to do with it and that after a few months the results are not that great, but that can be said about a lot of scar treatments. The Deep FX or Fraxel Re:Pair are not the holy grail of scar treatments, but as for lasers they are getting a lot better. Do you realize the depth of which these lasers are removing tissue at. The Fraxel Re:Pair removes columns of tissue at depths of 1.6mm and the Deep Fx at 1mm. That is pretty impressive. The original CO2 laser ablated the entire surface at only 0.3mm. So you can see the difference right there. I see where you are trying to come from, but you seem a bit un-educated here. There is nothing out there to totally rid scarring. I still think that these new lasers can help more than any other laser out right now. You set tempo for negative thinking. You seem to have a lot of info on what not to do, so then what do you suggest is a good scar treatment option? You said you had Fraxel treatments done right, how many did you do? Please give more info on what you all had done as well.

I'm sorry for any confusion that I may have set with these posts, but I guess I'm not as educated in this field as much as, say you? You're right, lasers are getting better and better but they boast false impressions to many people like myself, and that is why after 5 years of searching and and risking big $$$ on treatments, I'm pretty pissed off and uber-PESSIMISTIC about this industry. THERE ARE NO GOOD SCAR TREATMENT OPTIONS FROM WHAT I KNOW AND HAVE GONE THROUGH>these are all bogus claims from an industry that rakes in MILLIONS each year from people like myself and MANY others here. My set tempo is negative??? You're damn right it's negative!

In 2005 I had Erbium/YaG laser at CELIBRE, which scammed me out of $3000. My scars actually got worse after a few months. I DISTINCTLY ASKED THE DOUCHEBAG DOCTOR, "IS THIS PERMANENT IN TREATING ACNE SCARS?" His response, 'YES.'

In 2006 I had a total of 6 FRAXEL TREATMENTS, each costing $1000. What did I get out of this? An empty wallet.

In 2006-07 I've had dermabrasion, peels, bla bla etc etc and they WORK for maybe a month.

So yes, I'm uneducated but I know how this business works.

to me, her results look pretty good. considering it was a one time thing.

golfer, is that true about the depth that the newer lasers reach? i did a full face co2 back in 2005, and got garbage results. i wanna do total fx, cuz it sounds pretty good, but i was worried cuz it's part co2, so i wondered if i'd get similar results.

i sent some emails to doctors who do total fx, and i asked them if there's a difference between total fx and the old co2, in terms of mechanism and healing/revision (basicially, i wanted to know if different results could be expected from total fx than from co2). they just kinda told me that downtime is reduced (which really didn't answer my question).

sheit, if total fx (or re:pair, whatever) goes that much deeper than co2, i might be willing to consider it. although, my doc did go pretty deep on some areas of my face w/ the co2 (right after subcisions), and really, i didn't notice much improvement.

i also found that some doctors answer your first question, and if they decide that you're not a candidate for their place, they just kinda decide that they're done w/ you and ignore you from that point on.

Yes this is true. The depth of penetration is so much deeper than the original CO2 laser, its not even comparible. All the original CO2 laser does is ablate the entire surface layer of your face and not at deep level. Because it ablates the entire surface this why you have such a long healing time and potential risk of infection, scarring, and pigment problems. With the new fractional co2 lasers it not only uses co2 at a fractional approach, but by only ablating columns of tissue it allows these columns to go pretty deep. This is why I don't really understand where Wonko is coming from. This is very excting technology. I had the Fraxel Re:Pair done and so far am happy with the results. Are the results groundbreaking? No. I didn't expect this to be a magic wand. My first question was what is the difference betweens this laser and the older co2 laser and it both the depth of penetration and healing time. The healing time is quicker because of the fractional beams of co2. However when this laser is used to the most it is very powerful. I am still red in the highly treated areas and I had this done over 2 months ago. I was treated at the highest settings. I feel as though the info that wonko is giving is rather silly and un-educated. These kind of opinions don't mean anything to me and I know that my research on the topic proves my info correct. The depth of the Deep FX laser is 1mm and the dpeth of the Fraxel Re:Pair is 1.6mm. These are pretty impressive depths for co2 laser. The active fx and the mixto will not do much for scarring, unless it is superficial and more surface. The original co2 laser only goes at depths of around 0.3 which is what the active fx and mixto do at a fractional treatment. I Hope this helps. Do not listen to un-educated opinions.

Calling people like myself 'silly' seems a little childish to me. You're sounding like someone who works and solicits for the industry

Sorry that you felt as though the Erbium/YaG laser was a permanent fix to acne scars. You should have known that a permanent fix does not exist. As for your 6 Fraxel treatments, I am sorry to tell you that for acne scars your looking at well over 10 treatments at the highest levels to start making a impact on the. Come on bud, I am educated not a emplyee of a laser company. I want my scars gone just as bad as you and everyone else on this board. I look into treatments very deep and I never am looking for a permanent fix because it isn't there right now. The new fractional co2 laser blow the Fraxel Re:Store out of the water. Also when you had your fraxel treatments done, did you have the blue dye on your face?

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Wonko,

So are you saying in your posts that you are going to have the procedure done now? I am very confused with all of your posts and what you are trying to get across. I feel as though you posted these opinions will very little if any facts behind yourself. You went off a review from Realself.com I didn't see any problems or negativity in that review about the Deep FX. Yes she still has scarring after treatment, what did you expect? Really before you start laying down posts like this, you should really look into this more. Your claim about lasers is silly. Look into these new fractional co2 laser a bit more and educate yourelf. You don't need to just listen to your doctors, the info they are not telling you is out there and you can find it. Please I am curious to know how many of the Fraxel Re:Store treatments you had?

I'm D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-E. I'm willing to TRY anything nowadays...Although I have my doubts YES I'm willing to give this procedure a try. You again claim me as being 'silly.' Why? People come here because they want to find some kind of hope for their scars, just as I am. After so many failures in treatments, any kind of new hope would get me excited, so yes I might've gotten over my head by posting things in a hasty manner BUT that's because of all the BS produced by this industry for so long. I don't need to just listen to my doctors?? Aren't they supposed to KNOW about these better than anyone else? If you can restrain yourself from calling me 'silly' than I would appreciate it.

I never said I had Fraxel REpair, I had the original.

I am sorry I don't mean to be rude and call you silly. However when you come in creating posts that are boldly calling lasers a scam I can not help but call you silly. You had a few laser treatments done. Sorry, but 6 Fraxel treatments are not going to cut it. I am desperate too and I feel for you. Your right you don't need to just listen to your doc's, go into you appts. educated and ready with questions. I hope that you see great results with your Deep FX treatement, I really mean that bud. Just don't expect to see perfect.

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Wonko,

Do you understand how deep these new fractional co2 lasers are penetrating? They go so much deeper than the old co2 laser. I really think that when you get your Deep FX done you will be happy and maybe it will change your thinking about lasers. If possible try to find a doc that uses the Fraxel Re:Pair. It goes deeper than the Deep FX and the density of treatment is a lot more which will give you better results.

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Let's not forget though that exactly the same claims about helping with acne scarring were made by the original Fraxels and I don't see the glowing reviews of those. It's basically marketing claims.

If the technology is not proven and effective protocols not established in practice, I fail to see why people are being charged thousands of dollars for a 30 mins treatment ....

Drilling holes in your scars doesn't matter how deep, doesn't mean they are gonna flatten with the rest of skin - I simply don't see the logical reason why they would do that ....

If I have to go through that procedure, the practitioner has to prove to me it works with a test spot. Of course I doubt many 'professionals' would do that, they are too busy grabbing money ....

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Yes I claim that 6 Fraxel treatments is not going to cut it for acne scars. If these scars are more superficial and surface related then maybe, but yours don't sound like that. Would 6 more Fraxel treatments do it? Maybe. It depends on the energy settings being used as well. Do you recall what settings you were treated at? Keep trying these treatments, we all are here. I know it can get frustrating, just know that a post calling all lasers fraud is kind of off the wall and silly.

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Yes I claim that 6 Fraxel treatments is not going to cut it for acne scars. If these scars are more superficial and surface related then maybe, but yours don't sound like that. Would 6 more Fraxel treatments do it? Maybe. It depends on the energy settings being used as well. Do you recall what settings you were treated at? Keep trying these treatments, we all are here. I know it can get frustrating, just know that a post calling all lasers fraud is kind of off the wall and silly.

Wow man you are something else. How old are you?? I'm calling your BS, I'm beginning to think you're full of it.

I am 26 years old and have a face full of scars. Calling what BS? Don't let my knowledge scars you bud. You may of had these treatments done, but do you realize that they have been mainly treating the surface of your skin. The Fraxel treatments were going deeper, but only with heat. Do you think this is fun for me? Calling my BS? I am only passing on info that I have learned. And how old are you?

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Yes I claim that 6 Fraxel treatments is not going to cut it for acne scars. If these scars are more superficial and surface related then maybe, but yours don't sound like that. Would 6 more Fraxel treatments do it? Maybe. It depends on the energy settings being used as well. Do you recall what settings you were treated at? Keep trying these treatments, we all are here. I know it can get frustrating, just know that a post calling all lasers fraud is kind of off the wall and silly.

Wow man you are something else. How old are you?? I'm calling your BS, I'm beginning to think you're full of it.

I am 26 years old and have a face full of scars. Calling what BS? Don't let my knowledge scars you bud. You may of had these treatments done, but do you realize that they have been mainly treating the surface of your skin. The Fraxel treatments were going deeper, but only with heat. Do you think this is fun for me? Calling my BS? I am only passing on info that I have learned. And how old are you?

I'll be a gentleman and end this with you here

Gentleman or not, your silly and all you do by making posts like these is ruffle feathers. Your info about lasers is not accurate and please I do mean it when I say I hope you see results with the Deep FX.

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Wonko, honestly with your 6 Fraxel treatments I don't think this makes you a expert on if lasers work or don't work on acne scars. Your post has a title of Truth About Lasers: New Update. Is this written by Dr. Wonko or what? Lets get real here. Calling me a fake or a laser co. employee. I have scars and I hate them. I hate every waking day due to these f-ing holes on my face. Post things on this website of fact and not your un-educated opinions please. Get Deep FX done and get the results you need. If you don't get the results you need after one treatment, then keep going. This is what we are all doing here.

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Sorry Wonko, one more reply. You are on here bashing the Deep FX and lasers right? Then why are you going and having the Deep FX laser done? I understand you are desperate, but still a man of your knowledge and understanding of lasers would make sure that he doesn't go and waste anymore money on them. All you are doing is feeding into the companies that make lasers that do not do anything. You are so anti laser that even derperation should not sway you to try another. Lets get real here Wonko. Don't make posts of such silly info. Sorry your procedures are not giving you the results you want, they probably are for others.

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back to the topic: i've read the whole theard. why is Deep FX better than fraxel re:pair? i thought both of them would go into the same depth? and does anybody know if fraxel re:pair and Deep FX available in Europe? and the results of all lasers are not permanent, is that true? why? sry for the questions, but im really pissed off my fuckin scars and i searched for one year for solutions to treat my scars.

thanks

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As far as which laser is "better", DeepFX and Re:pair are pretty much toss-ups. Penetration depth is only a part of the equation, and I do believe the DeepFX can actually go deeper (2 mm maximal depth at 30mJ, source: www.medicalspamd.com/the-blog/2008/6/16/deepfx-forum-exclusively-for-encore-ultrapulse-users.html) but has poor clinical results so many opt to play it safe.

All of that is irrelevant if you don't find a good physician. Your physician should recommend an entire treatment course: pre-op and post-op. Having your face lasered as a one-shot deal isn't going to do shit, to be blunt. Lasers are still resurfacing adjuncts to surgical options. For instance, I would describe my scarring as "minor", as most were small, superficial scars with depth < 0.2 mm. Even then, my physician had me start Retin-A 3 months prior to even considering scheduling a day for the laser in addition to having me supplement vit. C, zinc, and forcing me to apply a broad spectrum UVA/UVB sunscreen with physical dispersion (TiO2, or ZnO usually). I had UV photos taken monthly to make sure I was applying the sunscreen, and I had 4 punch grafts done two months prior to the laser procedure so the resulting scar line could be resurfaced.

Wonko, I don't know anything more than I could dig up quickly on the internet about SkinNirvana. ABMS is the American Board of Medical Specialties, which tracks every physician's board certifications and is searchable. A CV is a curriculum vitae, which is basically one's academic resume. Now, there's nothing wrong with being certified in IM, Family, or Peds and opening up a laser shop, but here's the rub: they aren't trained to treat post-op complications. Anyone can operate the laser because the companies send out techs and nurses to show the people that buy them how, but they have minimal fund of knowledge in actually treating post-operatively. For instance, I'm assuming you're Asian, so you should know there's a risk of PIH after laser resurfacing. Someone without experience may prescribe hydroquinone and be done with you, while a derm, for instance, will be knowledgeable in different options for you specifically.

Also, God forbid you have serious complications, you need to know if these aesthetic center doctors have hospital privileges to admit their own patients, and not pawn you off to tertiary care. I doubt they do since they do no surgical procedures and list more spa-like procedures.

My ideal doctor (and the one I found) would tailor my own personal treatment plan as I outlined above to match my expectations and finances, and have the credentials, experience, and proof (VISIA analyses, recommendations from previous patients, etc.). Ideally I'd want a MOHS derm to do it as they'd have surgical skill and derm knowledge, but I'd speculate that combination would be extremely rare in offering cosmetic laser procedures. So, your best bet is to go with a derm that has lots of experience in subcision/punch grafts and CO2 lasers, or a facial PRS (ENT, PRS, even GS) with similar experience.

However, if you feel comfortable with the treatment plan outlined by the folks at SkinNirvana, by all means go for it. Being comfortable with your provider is as important as the aforementioned.

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Wonko,

Sorry to say this, but you do sound a bit silly. All you just did with these posts is cause a loss of hope. Just because you had no luck with your laser treatments doesn't mean they do not work. Honestly post your Fraxel settings and which of the Fraxel lasers you had done. What is your skin type? Do you realize that the other treatments you had done were mainly for the surface and didn't go that deep. They may have beat your face up pretty bad, but still didn't go all that deep. I think you will see results with the Deep FX. Let us know

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Wonko,

Sorry to say this, but you do sound a bit silly. All you just did with these posts is cause a loss of hope. Just because you had no luck with your laser treatments doesn't mean they do not work. Honestly post your Fraxel settings and which of the Fraxel lasers you had done. What is your skin type? Do you realize that the other treatments you had done were mainly for the surface and didn't go that deep. They may have beat your face up pretty bad, but still didn't go all that deep. I think you will see results with the Deep FX. Let us know

Wonko, I respect you, but Turtle101 is correct. It all depends on your type of scarring and levels of treatment (energy levels, passes). Lasers do work, but since the price for a session is so high, it may not be "worth" the results, but nontheless it does do something with scars.

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Hi im not trying to change the subject but im new and i dotn know how to post i was jus twondering if you can use aha while using acv as a toner thx

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