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jessica.trb.rabbit

Organic foods and Veganism Helps Clear Skin

I have struggled with mild acne since I was 15 (I'm 26 now.) What I hate most about my skin are my large pores and the post hyper-pigmentation that occurs as a result of my acne.

I've tried all sorts of OTC and prescription topicals, chemical peels, and antibiotics (mino-, tetra-, doxcy-). I think those products masked my problem. Oh, and birth control really made me break out.

Most recently I've been eating vegan. What this means is that I don't eat any animal by-products. So, no meat and no dairy (including eggs). Of course this was a hard transistion. I had much motivation however for wanting to change my diet. My reasons included skin care; physical appearance; internal well-being; animal cruelty concerns; and environmentalism.

I've taken a more holistic approach toward my skin care routine in that I only consume pure and organic foods MOST of the time. Dairy products wreaked havoc on my skin. Also, beef and other such meats plugged my pores. Now with a good diet, some mild cleansers and great exercise regimen, I've seen a drastic difference. I recently stopped using Doxcy because of things I've read. Antibiotics don't usually allow your body to digest essential nutrients. When one isn't getting the nutrients they need, their skin will react. At least this is the case for me.

Everyone's skin is different. If you've tried everything, consider a more holistic approach. It sounds crunchy (and it is), but it might do wonders.

My regimen:

Morning and night: Wash face with cetaphyl and proactive (I only use the scrub, not toner or BP lotion)

I eat a lot of tomatoes (anti-inflamatory properties), raw almonds, green veggies, "Detox" tea, whole wheat organic pastas, whole wheat organic bread, soy milk.

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I think a true healthy vegan diet can benefit a lot of people, but I have heard of those whose acne go worse after going vegan. I was vegetarian for 2 years, and while at first it helped my skin, I was finding at the end that my skin was all over the place. I actually have had great success eating meat, but more important eating tons of fruit and veggies and cutting out gluten.

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I wouldn't be able to substain a vegan diet. Gluten affects me pretty badly and so do legumes--and wheat and legumes are probably the two most important sources of protein for vegans. Except for soy. Oh wait, soy messes with my hormones, I forgot. *rolleyes*

Anyway I'm glad that it's working for you. Are you sure that high-quality meat affects you badly? Oftentimes it's the stuff that it's fried in or bad farming techniques that can do it. And what about seafood?

And if you don't mind telling me, where do you get your Vitamin B12? And if you get it from fortified foods like soy milk, how do you think you would have done on a vegan diet before B12 supplements had been invented?

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It's funny that vegan diet is always attacked because of B12. I agree there's a minor change of becoming deficient of B12 on vegan diet. But, as Dr. McDougall says, it's usually because the diet those vegans eat is overall unhealthy and deficient in many other ways also. It's easy to make a vegan diet terribly unhealthy - just eat plenty of grains, soy and cook all your vegetables.

Considering that diet based on animal-products is deficient in almost all essential vitamins and antioxidants humans require attacking vegan diet based on a single deficiency is quite a weak position.

Anyhow, my personal opinion is that it's never about a single food item. Both vegan and non-vegan diets can be healthy - as long as they contain plenty of raw fruits and vegetables and as little processed garbage as possible.

Plus there are many other elements to health also. Diet is just a part of the puzzle and no diet can work in absence of exercise, sleep, positive attitude and so forth.

Oh yes, here's the McDougall article about B12. It's pretty good:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

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It's funny that vegan diet is always attacked because of B12. I agree there's a minor change of becoming deficient of B12 on vegan diet. But, as Dr. McDougall says, it's usually because the diet those vegans eat is overall unhealthy and deficient in many other ways also.

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I never used to believe in organic foods but now I always aim for 100% organic whenever I can, the taste difference is out of this world for me and as much as it is claimed there is no difference I think that's a load of bollocks and I don't want to be eating food that was grown in chemicals thank you very much even if it does cost more.

I find on this site that whenever anyone says they're vegan they are bombarded quite literally to death with vitamin b12 questions and that's all. Why does everyone always focus on that and nothing else?

I remember reading somewhere (don't know where) that 'scientists' are still discovering vitamins and enzymes and amino acids and all that crap so we don't really know exactly what is missing from what we only know what we know so far and we probably don't even know that either so does it really bloody matter about b12.

In my opinion, utter crap as it may be, you're more likely to die from eating a non vegan diet than a vegan one. I'm not going to argue the point because it's an opinion and we're all entitled to our own.

:)

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I find on this site that whenever anyone says they're vegan they are bombarded quite literally to death with vitamin b12 questions and that's all. Why does everyone always focus on that and nothing else?

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I find on this site that whenever anyone says they're vegan they are bombarded quite literally to death with vitamin b12 questions and that's all. Why does everyone always focus on that and nothing else?

I do actually have many other things I could focus on, if that's what you want: Where do vegans get their preformed omega-3s? How about their preformed Vitamin A? Where's the evidence that non-preformed omega-3s and non-preformed Vitamin A is equal to their preformed counterparts? Where do vegans get certain minerals, like zinc and selenium? If humans aren't suppose to eat meat and dairy, then why is it that people who eat some meat tend to live longer than those who don't? If vegan diets are best, then why are there so many people who react badly to vegan foods such as grains, soy, legumes, and citrus fruits (and sometimes all four at once)? And finally, where's your concrete evidence that vegan diets are better than any other kind of diet?

I remember reading somewhere (don't know where) that 'scientists' are still discovering vitamins and enzymes and amino acids and all that crap so we don't really know exactly what is missing from what we only know what we know so far and we probably don't even know that either so does it really bloody matter about b12.

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As our soil is so depleted of nutrients and scientists have confirmed that modern vegetables and fruits have less vitamins because of this, we can imagine that B12 may have suffered a similar fate in our foods and disappeared completely from the soil. It is one explanation of how veganism could have been sustainable in paleo times and we cannot definitively say that B12 was not present in the soil back then.

Now even omnivore humans are required to take supplements. Carnivores need a lot as meat is deficient in a full spectrum of vitamins which could also be due to nutrient depletion in the soil. Women especially have to take calcium supplements of 1000 mg/day starting in their 20s to prevent osteoporosis, and our ancestors were not plagued by weak bones. So please don't get down on vegans for B12. We've been told that women must eat soy during menopause and children have to drink milk to grow taller...messages that have been reversed...at this point the message that humans must eat animal products could also be a product of marketing.

Most of the acne.org posters seems to be taking supplements as diet alone is not reversing acne in most of us. Most people in this forum are taking mega B doses, omega 3s, Taurine, psyllium husks, soluble fiber supplements, probiotics, or DIM and need the supplement in addition to their diet. So the question arises: How would our quality of life be without our supplements not just vegans?

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As our soil is so depleted of nutrients and scientists have confirmed that modern vegetables and fruits have less vitamins because of this, we can imagine that B12 may have suffered a similar fate in our foods and disappeared completely from the soil. It is one explanation of how veganism could have been sustainable in paleo times and we cannot definitively say that B12 was not present in the soil back then.

Now even omnivore humans are required to take supplements. Carnivores need a lot as meat is deficient in a full spectrum of vitamins which could also be due to nutrient depletion in the soil. Women especially have to take calcium supplements of 1000 mg/day starting in their 20s to prevent osteoporosis, and our ancestors were not plagued by weak bones. So please don't get down on vegans for B12. We've been told that women must eat soy during menopause and children have to drink milk to grow taller...messages that have been reversed...at this point the message that humans must eat animal products could also be a product of marketing.

Most of the acne.org posters seems to be taking supplements as diet alone is not reversing acne in most of us. Most people in this forum are taking mega B doses, omega 3s, Taurine, psyllium husks, soluble fiber supplements, probiotics, or DIM and need the supplement in addition to their diet. So the question arises: How would our quality of life be without our supplements not just vegans?

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As our soil is so depleted of nutrients and scientists have confirmed that modern vegetables and fruits have less vitamins because of this, we can imagine that B12 may have suffered a similar fate in our foods and disappeared completely from the soil. It is one explanation of how veganism could have been sustainable in paleo times and we cannot definitively say that B12 was not present in the soil back then.

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Whenever people raise the issue of veganism on this board vis-a-vis skin issues, it always turns into a knock-down-drag-out debate about whether veganism is bad or good for you. How about respecting other people's affirmations that they feel happy and healthy on a vegan diet?

I don't think the ultimate issue is HOW we could've been vegan back in the dawn of man. It would have been extremely difficult to do so. Meat supplemented us, quite obviously, until agriculture.

But in the fantastic world we live in, with supplements, vitamins, fortified foods, and nutritional knowledge, we now have the choice to be happy and healthy by following the diet of our choosing.

I personally follow a vegan diet not only because the lack of dairy has kept nearly blemish-free for over two years, but because it encourages less animal cruelty and engenders a more sustainable way of living on this one earth that we have (costs FAR less energy to produce vegetarian food than animal food, not to mention the methane emission of livestock...http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/cow-emissions-more-damaging-to-planet-than-cosub2sub-from-cars-427843.html).

It's basically the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle: If I can support these personal and global changes and suffer no ill effect, how could I not?

Being vegan has REALLY helped my skin, to any of you reading this post and considering it, and I'm the healthiest I've ever been--lost weight, lowered my cholesterol, and reduced my blood pressure. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but please know - you can be perfectly happy, healthy, and nutrient-deficiency-free either way you go, despite the protestations of some on this board.

Happy experimenting. :dance:

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I think I will go partial VEGAN AGAIN...

I can truly say that when I was eating mainly raw, from Jan of this yr, till march, I saw a vast improvement, to the point where I might of had 1 clogged pore...and that was it..

However I felt weak...

I Then added back in ,baked chicken, but mainly salmon as my meat sources...

I get only AMAZING results with salmon...

With chicken, baked...I dont know...

I think It is because I am too poor...lol..to buy the free range chicken right now whilst being in school...

and I know that makes a difference, QUALITY Organic food.

I want go back to the whole VEGAN way, I just really will not be able to fully, because I am allergic to SOY, and grains...

LEGUMES I do not know about....

So, my question is how does one get the PROTEIN from being a vegan if you are allergic to the foods, that the vegans can eat that will supply protein?

and also, would'nt if you are vegan and need b12, it be best to just supplement it?

Lastly, I must admit to the fullest, When I eat SALMON, I look good, and feel clear minded and sleep really well..

Could I be a 98% VEGAN, eating like only salmon 2 - times a week?

Would that be Alright?

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Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but please know - you can be perfectly happy, healthy, and nutrient-deficiency-free either way you go, despite the protestations of some on this board.

The truth is, many vegeatarians/vegans don't even want a healthy discussion on why they think their diet choices are the best. This a discussion forum, where you discuss different ideas; if you aren' t prepared to discuss your own ideas and explain why you think they are good, then you shouldn't be posting in the first place.

I've said before that I will glady switch to a strict vegan diet if somebody can convince me. But I've yet to see a vegan who can adequately explain why a vegan lifestyle would be the best diet for anybody. Every member on this forum that I have respect for are the members that take the time to make long, detailed posts about why they think what they think. Even if I heartfully disagree with them (which most of the time is not the case), I still have to respect them for backing up their reasoning.

I personally follow a vegan diet not only because the lack of dairy has kept nearly blemish-free for over two years, but because it encourages less animal cruelty and engenders a more sustainable way of living on this one earth that we have (costs FAR less energy to produce vegetarian food than animal food, not to mention the methane emission of livestock...http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/cow-emissions-more-damaging-to-planet-than-cosub2sub-from-cars-427843.html).

That's not a good argument. Without the contributions of animal foods to humans, humans would have to rely even more on grains for calories and protein and nutrients (as it is, 1/5 of the world's calories come from rice). The number of potential humans on the planet would decrease sharply, and the situation in third-world countries would remain the same. Gobal warming might decrease 1%. Is that your goal?

If you're so concerned with excess energy usage, then what you should do is never own a car. In many ways, that would be a less rash decision than switching to a vegan diet.

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I've know some vegetarians that end up suffering severe health issues later on (anxiety, depression, muscle pain, etc etc) because of the lack of meat. But if you have your beliefs I guess thats more important, but I wouldnt do it just for skin reasons.

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Then your vegetarian friends were 'special'. I have been a veggie myself for almost 8 yrs now and I never had any such problem. And I have hundreds of people in my colony who dont touch meat and still are as healthy as they come.

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The truth is, many vegeatarians/vegans don't even want a healthy discussion on why they think their diet choices are the best. This a discussion forum, where you discuss different ideas; if you aren' t prepared to discuss your own ideas and explain why you think they are good, then you shouldn't be posting in the first place.

I've said before that I will glady switch to a strict vegan diet if somebody can convince me. But I've yet to see a vegan who can adequately explain why a vegan lifestyle would be the best diet for anybody. Every member on this forum that I have respect for are the members that take the time to make long, detailed posts about why they think what they think. Even if I heartfully disagree with them (which most of the time is not the case), I still have to respect them for backing up their reasoning.

That's not a good argument. Without the contributions of animal foods to humans, humans would have to rely even more on grains for calories and protein and nutrients (as it is, 1/5 of the world's calories come from rice). The number of potential humans on the planet would decrease sharply, and the situation in third-world countries would remain the same. Gobal warming might decrease 1%. Is that your goal?

First, I'd like to invite you to www.vegweb.com and www.peta.com sites. Tell the forum people there that they don't care to have healthy discussions as to why they've chosen the veg*n lifestyle if you'd like to debate, which is exactly what you're doing in this thread.

Second, people ARE discussing their ideas in this thread so what are you talking about? Just because you don't agree with them or deem them fit enough for your criteria, they shouldn't post?

Third, why should anybody try to convince you? As far as I know, people choose veg*nism because of personal issues, not because someone posts something in a forum. There's more to it than just typed words.

Finally, a good bit of India's population is vegetarian due to Hinduism and they multiply just fine so the argument of relying on grains that will hinder a population doesn't make sense to me.

If someone relies on just grains alone and a few vegetables, yea...that's a suck diet and there are going to be issues, but if someone eats from a variety of the non-meat food groups then there is no problem. I've not had any issues at all, thanks, and I don't take suppliments.

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I find on this site that whenever anyone says they're vegan they are bombarded quite literally to death with vitamin b12 questions and that's all. Why does everyone always focus on that and nothing else?

I do actually have many other things I could focus on, if that's what you want: Where do vegans get their preformed omega-3s?

This is a problem for the general population as fost of our foods including fish are deficiency in preformed omega-3. Ideally we should have a system healthy enough to convert enough of the SCPUFA in LCPUFA and many people indeed have no problems with such convertion. But years of unhealthy eating, unproper development of such system (that seems related to the duration of breastfeeding) and intestinal problem might make certain people in need for supplemented omega-3 which would be a good idea for the population at large as well, no matter how much steak they eat ... EFA deficiency is spread all over the population meat eating or not.

How about their preformed Vitamin A?

Not only preformed Vitamin A is not required but appeared dangerous for the bones in several studies

Where's the evidence that non-preformed Vitamin A is equal to their preformed counterparts?

There's plenty actually.

Vegan beside show no symptoms of vitamin A deficiency.

Where do vegans get certain minerals, like zinc and selenium?

Zinc and selenium are not a problem in the vegan diet.

As long as the diet is varied plants are modest sources

If humans aren't suppose to eat meat and dairy, then why is it that people who eat some meat tend to live longer than those who don't?

Those longevity studies are actually flawed by their nature.

First of all they establish a bland correlation not a causation and on second place it might be all a coincidence. For example many people find out they have some life-threatening diseases or cancer and switch to detoxifying diets including veganism. If they diet they result like vegan in the study while their vegan career lasted few months and 40 years of their life was of junk food eating and smoking but these data are enough to screw the whole results. Also those studies don't even take into account accidental deaths and since the vegan group is smaller than the others the fatalities and diseases within the group influence the result way more than the others.

This is the same problems of those studies finding out that overweight people live longer than thin people. Although is has been used by fanatics to claim that we're not supposed to be thin the results are just nonsense. What they found out is that smoking decreases your longevity while also decreasing your waist (by acting as an hunger suppressant) Therefore in the thin group there were an excess of chronic smokers that screwed the result.

For as many studies that found out a 13 months or something higher longevity in the meat eating group there are as many studies finding the same month longevity increase in the vegan or vegetarian groups. We'd just better leave those studies alone.

If vegan diets are best, then why are there so many people who react badly to vegan foods such as grains, soy, legumes, and citrus fruits (and sometimes all four at once)

What is the real statistic about the people affected by those foods?

Or do you take chit-chat boad for granted most of which includes paranoia, exaggerated claims and placebo? The person eating a single soy bean and claiming to feel his skin inflammation worsening is not talking about something real.

"There are vitamins still being discovered, thus Vitamin B12 is no longer a necessary nutrient and nobody should give it a bit of attention."

Is that what you're saying?

Vitamin B12 is a substance produced by bacteria interacting with the cobalt in the soil.

The result is that nowadays most are deficient in active B12.

Ideally B12 would be provided by colon bacteria and reachng the gut through the appendix and would be also provided by eating fruits, plants, berries and whatever food in the wild or drinking wild water. Nowadays there's an excess of sanitization and septicism and active B12 from foods just gets destroyed or never got there to begin with. Many microbiological Ochromonas Malhamensis studies found most foods including fish and meat to be terribly deficient in B12.

Besides B12 is strongly intolerant to heating. Everyone would be wise to supplement B12 nowadays. The average level is incredibly low in meat, fish and egg eaters as well.

I think no diet is best per se.

I think there are many typologies of diet and our goal should be to make each typology of diet as healthy as it can get. It's not about what diet is healthier between X and Y. It is about making X as healthy as possible and healthier than all other X's and Y as healthy as possible and healthier than all other Y's.

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I've know some vegetarians that end up suffering severe health issues later on (anxiety, depression, muscle pain, etc etc) because of the lack of meat.

This is hardly what happened.

It was the inadequacy of the diet rather than the lack of meat causing those problems.

Also we should reflect on the fact that when a vegetarian person feels sick because he consumed a diet of french fries and pasta we tend to blame the diet but when a standard-western-diet eatern gets very sick because of their diet we blame the person. For as many vegetarians that might have developed anxiety because of bad dietary choices there are even more common people developing way worse diseases because of their diet, but we tend to point the finger at the vegetarians ones.

Of course sometimes allergic reactions to the food available in a certain diet force us to introduce other foods just to have something to eat. But this is hardly the fault of the diet just like being allergic to fish is hardly the fault of fish eating.

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First, I'd like to invite you to www.vegweb.com and www.peta.com sites. Tell the forum people there that they don't care to have healthy discussions as to why they've chosen the veg*n lifestyle if you'd like to debate, which is exactly what you're doing in this thread.

Been there, done that.

I ask them where people are supposed to get their B12. "From soy/seaweed/etc!" "Those are B12 analogues, and are not absorbed." "Then get it from soy milk!" "Then how would people get their B12 before supplements were invented!" "Well, Indians don't eat meat!" "Actually, they end up eating insects, and they use human fertilizer for their B12." "Well, everybody's different, no one's forcing you to eat a vegan diet!"

Second, people ARE discussing their ideas in this thread so what are you talking about? Just because you don't agree with them or deem them fit enough for your criteria, they shouldn't post?

They are doing an admirable job of putting their ideas out there; but when it comes to backing their ideas up and defending flaws in their theories...

Third, why should anybody try to convince you?

It's not just about me -- I just wonder why anybody would advocate any diet to anybody, if they themselves can't think of good reasons as to why their diet would be the best for them.

And when I see people do this, I tend to call them out on it. It's not just a vegetarian/vegan thing either; I do the same thing when people eat meat but are afraid of saturated fat, or when they eat a raw diet and yet they still end up eating cooked/heat-treated food.

As far as I know, people choose veg*nism because of personal issues, not because someone posts something in a forum. There's more to it than just typed words.

Oh, no doubt about this, and honestly I don't care what diets people choose for themselves, and a vegetarian-vegan diet CAN be healthier than the typical Western diet, so no harm there; I just don't like false information being given out. That's why I try not to make ANY kind of claim without making sure I can back it out if need be. Unlike some vegans (not on this website) who read a single website saying that soy supplies B12, and then leaves it at that.

Finally, a good bit of India's population is vegetarian due to Hinduism and they multiply just fine so the argument of relying on grains that will hinder a population doesn't make sense to me.

We already are relying on grains. 1/5 of the world's calories come from rice. I bet you anything that another 2/5 of the world's calories come from wheat, quinoa, millet, or corn.

I have a question: does the Hindu-Indian population eat eggs/dairy? Because if they do, they are still getting benefits of animal fat/animal nutrients. A vegetarian diet would be plenty healthy if the use of eggs and raw dairy was liberal. In fact, I wouldn't mind going on such a vegetarian diet.

If someone relies on just grains alone and a few vegetables, yea...that's a suck diet and there are going to be issues, but if someone eats from a variety of the non-meat food groups then there is no problem. I've not had any issues at all, thanks, and I don't take suppliments.

Be specific. What kind of variety are you talking about?

If vegetarians don't eat grains, then they'll have to eat legumes or seeds or tubers, all of which will have a similar effect on the human body as grains. For simplicity's sake, all calorie-rich, slow-perishing foods are grains. Most of the healthiest foods in the world are the ones that WON'T be able to sit in a kitchen cabinet for three years unrefrigerated, and then safely be able to be eaten.

I'm glad that you aren't having any issues on this diet, nor am I surprised. Most diets that supply sufficient calories will be able to be sustained, which is a function of the human body I'm sure. But put the entire world on a vegetarian, or worse, vegan, diet, and you have a problem.

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EFA deficiency is spread all over the population meat eating or not.

That's right.

So, back to the question: where do vegeatarians get preformed omega-3s at all? Algae? Because most vegetarians I know don't eat algae.

Not only preformed Vitamin A is not required but appeared dangerous for the bones in several studies

The reason retinol disturbed bone density in those studies was because of an imbalance of fat soluble vitamins, which is simple.

Get too much Vitamin A, and your Vitamin D, Vitamin E, and Vitamin K status will be compromised. That's why you shouldn't supplement Vitamin A without making sure you're also getting plenty of Vitamin D and Vitamin K (which is why cod liver oil is such a great supplement).

Please make no mistake about it: retinol is not bad for your bones. It's an imbalance of vitamins that is bad for your bones

By the way, do you know why beta carotene is apparently non-toxic? Because it doesn't upset the balance of fat-solubles. Why not? Because beta carotene is not Vitamin A.

And you'd be hard-pressed to prove that vegans have good Vitamin A status, considering that Vitamin A deficiency is seen in many Western meat-eaters as well (and Vitamin A deficiency is one culprit of the early-onset puberty, braces, myopia epidemic).

What is the real statistic about the people affected by those foods?

Let's see. It's theorized that a fifth or more of America's population is affected by gluten in ways they don't want to be. Citrus and soy are well-established, common allergies. Legumes aren't necessarily common allergens (with the exception of peanuts), but considering how many anti-nutrients and enzyme-inhibitors they have, it's no wonder that so many people's digestion is compromised by eating them.

Vitamin B12 is a substance produced by bacteria interacting with the cobalt in the soil.

The result is that nowadays most are deficient in active B12.

Ideally B12 would be provided by colon bacteria and reachng the gut through the appendix and would be also provided by eating fruits, plants, berries and whatever food in the wild or drinking wild water. Nowadays there's an excess of sanitization and septicism and active B12 from foods just gets destroyed or never got there to begin with. Many microbiological Ochromonas Malhamensis studies found most foods including fish and meat to be terribly deficient in B12.

Besides B12 is strongly intolerant to heating. Everyone would be wise to supplement B12 nowadays. The average level is incredibly low in meat, fish and egg eaters as well.

And all of this may be true, but after all is said and done, the truth of the matter is that humans have never been a vegan species. It's unlikely they were ever a vegetarian species either, considering that dairy consumption is somewhat recent and that it's unlikely that humans would have stolen eggs, but didn't eat the animal that laid them.

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That's right.

So, back to the question: where do vegeatarians get preformed omega-3s at all? Algae? Because most vegetarians I know don't eat algae.

Preformed LCPUFA would be necessarily supplied by supplements

Not only preformed Vitamin A is not required but appeared dangerous for the bones in several studies

By the way, do you know why beta carotene is apparently non-toxic? Because it doesn't upset the balance of fat-solubles. Why not? Because beta carotene is not Vitamin A.

Beta-carotene is not Vitamin A but fulfill the same functions without problems.

Other than a biochemical point is also a matter of common sense.

Vegans have no retinol source and yet they survive.

Because no mistake, if you're deficient in vitamin A you'll have problems but if you lack vitamin A period you can't survive.

And you'd be hard-pressed to prove that vegans have good Vitamin A status, considering that Vitamin A deficiency is seen in many Western meat-eaters as well .

If you check the average status of veg* population you'll see Vitamin A status is good. And the reason is that overall they get more than enough beta-carotene, unlike sad eaters that gets both little vitamin A and both little beta-carotene.

What is the real statistic about the people affected by those foods?

Let's see. It's theorized that a fifth or more of America's population is affected by gluten in ways they don't want to be. Citrus and soy are well-established, common allergies. Legumes aren't necessarily common allergens (with the exception of peanuts), but considering how many anti-nutrients and enzyme-inhibitors they have, it's no wonder that so many people's digestion is compromised by eating them.

The antinutrients in legumes don't influence digestion.

They might influence mineral status but only as long as the intake of the antinutrients itself is high enough. This isn't going to occur with two or three portions of legumes. In fact the antinutrients content and power of such intake is so irrelevant that JAMA considers antinutrients in legumes or seeds or nuts irrelevant for the western population. The only circumstance in which we should worry about them is caloric deficient, nutrients deficient diet, whose 95% of the food consumed is one rich in antinutrients consumed by an already underfed and underweight person.

Vitamin B12 is a substance produced by bacteria interacting with the cobalt in the soil.

The result is that nowadays most are deficient in active B12.

Ideally B12 would be provided by colon bacteria and reachng the gut through the appendix and would be also provided by eating fruits, plants, berries and whatever food in the wild or drinking wild water. Nowadays there's an excess of sanitization and septicism and active B12 from foods just gets destroyed or never got there to begin with. Many microbiological Ochromonas Malhamensis studies found most foods including fish and meat to be terribly deficient in B12.

Besides B12 is strongly intolerant to heating. Everyone would be wise to supplement B12 nowadays. The average level is incredibly low in meat, fish and egg eaters as well.

And all of this may be true, but after all is said and done, the truth of the matter is that humans have never been a vegan species. It's unlikely they were ever a vegetarian species either, considering that dairy consumption is somewhat recent and that it's unlikely that humans would have stolen eggs, but didn't eat the animal that laid them.

The boundaries are very thin. No animals is completely vegetarian at this point since even bovines eat insects or small animals if needed. But the necessity of the circumstance has little to do with what is ideal and while I'm not suggesting one diet is better than another I have yet to find any evidence that speculating what our species use to eat back then is of any use to determine the perfect diet. The only reason I have defended the paleo diet is that it is mostly based on hunter-gatherer studies and the health of certain hunger-gatherer population is something concrete. So it their diminutive BMI compared to us all and also their rather moderate meat intake even compared to the western standards (of course it's not like people eat lot of meat by cooking themselves roast. It is more a matter of a diet based on fast-food, hambuger, hot-dog, steak house, chicken nudjets, wurstel and so on)

A discussion about what diet is best expecially using dobious studies and paleolithic speculation is pointless and would certainly lead us to huge methological and conclusion flaws. This shouldn't be about what diet is better. This should be about how whatever diet can be turned in the best of its kind while respecting personal choices and giving a thought about famine, world economy and the exploitation of the environment.

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I've know some vegetarians that end up suffering severe health issues later on (anxiety, depression, muscle pain, etc etc) because of the lack of meat.

This is hardly what happened.

It was the inadequacy of the diet rather than the lack of meat causing those problems.

Also we should reflect on the fact that when a vegetarian person feels sick because he consumed a diet of french fries and pasta we tend to blame the diet but when a standard-western-diet eatern gets very sick because of their diet we blame the person. For as many vegetarians that might have developed anxiety because of bad dietary choices there are even more common people developing way worse diseases because of their diet, but we tend to point the finger at the vegetarians ones.

Of course sometimes allergic reactions to the food available in a certain diet force us to introduce other foods just to have something to eat. But this is hardly the fault of the diet just like being allergic to fish is hardly the fault of fish eating.

It's definately not because of poor diet. One woman I know must be the healthiest eater I know, and she is extremely knowledgeable about health and nutrition, don't even go there. She *never* eats fries either. Once she started eating meat, all her troubles went away.

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It's definately not because of poor diet. One woman I know must be the healthiest eater I know, and she is extremely knowledgeable about health and nutrition, don't even go there. She *never* eats fries either. Once she started eating meat, all her troubles went away.

This doesn't make any sense though.

From a biochemical point of view there's nothing in meat you can't find in plant foods and supplements if needed let alone eggs or dairy. And often knowledge doesn't mean doing the right thing. When you reduce food sources it becomes a more subtle thing than eating or not eating junk food and french fries.

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