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The science behind DIM (or estrogen metabolism/androgen production)

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See what i have to say about substances found in broccoli here on this post:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...p;#entry2213576

also, see:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...li%20pill\

I have DIM arriving probably tomorrow to see for myself if I get the same result that others are reporting. When I run out of it, rather than reorder, I will give broccoli pills a try to compare DIM results to broccoli pills.

Seems the answer was there all along in that old thread but maybe we know more now about how it works.

(Not to mention that things might sabotage it...like green tea alone causing DHT spike!)

Gotta go. More later. Please give me your thoughts.

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++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?

Hi Guys,

I understand that both DIM and CDG can help rid the body of xenoestrogens and other toxins, but that DIM may also have other properties that help with acne...The consensus here seems to be, try DIM for a month or two and then use CDG for maintenance...why can't we use DIM for maintenance? IS CDG supposed to be safer, or is it better studied? Thanks

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++++++++

Okay. I've seen somewhere that the bioresponse DIM seems to spike after a couple hours and wear off by the 5th hour. I've just read somewhere that CDG seems to do most of its work in 5 hours.

I think it is important that users receive some guidance on taking this stuff. I am thinking DIM with food in the morning and if you are taking CDG or other phase 2, take it a couple hours later. Then second daily dose of DIM no more than like 7 hours after the first (preferably sooner, right?) and then couple hours later the phase 2.

There's also the issue of the best foods to eat with this stuff. The liver uses proteins to bind stuff up and fats to expel them. I think people have to be getting adequate protein and fat. The protein is actually the phase 2 part of it (cysteine or taurine or glycine or whatever) so maybe if you supplement it, you're in the clear...but you have to have fats. We may also need to explore what might be contradicting it, as some users haven't seen results.

AND Ultimately, what would be a dietary maintenance routine? Eating cruciferous veggies every day?? Or 4x per week? But I think CDG is just about a requirement these days. Otherwise, how to get rid of all the toxins from car exhaust, etc. I mean, you can use natural lotions, etc and you can buy organic foods to avoid pesticides and other xenoestrogens, but if you live in a city the car exhaust is always there.

Thoughts?

Hi Guys,

I understand that both DIM and CDG can help rid the body of xenoestrogens and other toxins, but that DIM may also have other properties that help with acne...The consensus here seems to be, try DIM for a month or two and then use CDG for maintenance...why can't we use DIM for maintenance? IS CDG supposed to be safer, or is it better studied? Thanks

Not ideally I think you should use CDG along with DIM or even use CDG for a week or 2 before DIM. They are very different supplements so please understand how both work to help control hormonal acne.

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I've been responding on the user's thread (please see my posts there) and I am wondering people's thoughts here regarding the "honeymoon period" and reducing dosage to simply a "booster" dose at some point during treatment (or to just veggies in the diet. yay.). And how about CDG or other phase 2 in that schema?

Also wondering your thoughts regarding expelling excess fluid / fluid retention.

thanks

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I've been responding on the user's thread (please see my posts there) and I am wondering people's thoughts here regarding the "honeymoon period" and reducing dosage to simply a "booster" dose at some point during treatment (or to just veggies in the diet. yay.). And how about CDG or other phase 2 in that schema?

Also wondering your thoughts regarding expelling excess fluid / fluid retention.

thanks

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I've been responding on the user's thread (please see my posts there) and I am wondering people's thoughts here regarding the "honeymoon period" and reducing dosage to simply a "booster" dose at some point during treatment (or to just veggies in the diet. yay.). And how about CDG or other phase 2 in that schema?

Also wondering your thoughts regarding expelling excess fluid / fluid retention.

thanks

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Hi all,

I have been reading through all of the DIM threads from start and think it's great what you are doing here! I'm not too sure though I fully understand what your current conclusions are. So I was wondering if you, maybe in particular Jodiat, could give a short summarization of how you think acne should be treated with DIM;

For example:

- Take the recommended dose of DIM along with CDG and Taurine.

- Stop taking the CDG daily after e.g. 2 weeks and then continue taking it weekly.

- After a few months only take the DIM and Taurine once a week as well.

- Keep eating cruciferous vegetables and apples!

By the way; I found a website offering both DIM and CDG with a discount: http://www.vitacost.com/Natures-Way-DIM-Pl...la-120-Capsules Good deal? :clap:

--------------

edit:

Another question: Is overdosing possible regarding DIM, CDG and Taurine, respectively?

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I just typed this passage from book I have:

Calcium-D-glucarate, also called glucarate, increases your elimination of environmental chemicals and other pollutants from food, air, and water. Carcinogenic chemicals are neutralized through different bodily processes. One way is glucuronidation, which utilizes a liver pathway. Glucuronidated chemicals are rendered harmless in the liver, and are carried away by the bile for elimination in the feces. Unfriendly bacteria in the digestive system can interfere with this process. Specifically, an enzyme called B-glucuronidase (BG) can destroy a glucuronidated chemical before it can be eliminated. The chemical can then irritate the lining of the colon and actually become reabsorbed by the body, placing stress on the natural detoxification process. Calcium-D-glucarate supplies release of the chemical D-glucaro-1, 4-lactone (GL) in the digestive tract. GL is a natural product found in some fruits, vegetables, and mammals that inhibits problematic BG enzyme production. This means that the glucuronidation process can continue to break down chemical estrogens. Scientists hypothesize that if this process is supported, hormone-related cancers of the breast, cervix, uterine, and prostate maybe prevented. Two to four 500 mg capsules of calcium-D-glucarate daily can aid in elimination of potential environmental carcinogens.
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I just typed this passage from book I have:

Calcium-D-glucarate, also called glucarate, increases your elimination of environmental chemicals and other pollutants from food, air, and water. Carcinogenic chemicals are neutralized through different bodily processes. One way is glucuronidation, which utilizes a liver pathway. Glucuronidated chemicals are rendered harmless in the liver, and are carried away by the bile for elimination in the feces. Unfriendly bacteria in the digestive system can interfere with this process. Specifically, an enzyme called B-glucuronidase (BG) can destroy a glucuronidated chemical before it can be eliminated. The chemical can then irritate the lining of the colon and actually become reabsorbed by the body, placing stress on the natural detoxification process. Calcium-D-glucarate supplies release of the chemical D-glucaro-1, 4-lactone (GL) in the digestive tract. GL is a natural product found in some fruits, vegetables, and mammals that inhibits problematic BG enzyme production. This means that the glucuronidation process can continue to break down chemical estrogens. Scientists hypothesize that if this process is supported, hormone-related cancers of the breast, cervix, uterine, and prostate maybe prevented. Two to four 500 mg capsules of calcium-D-glucarate daily can aid in elimination of potential environmental carcinogens.

Thought it was interesting. I'm currently taking DIM and CDG together.

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Yes! That is what we acne.org folks discovered as well. Good to know that its in the product book too. This website that Jodiat found really spells it out and explains the taurine connection too. How much do you take? (I'm sorry, I know I've probably already asked...but the book says 2-4 of 500mg...seems alot. I think that would be great for a month andthen drop down to 1x. Thats what I hope anyway.)
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Yes! That is what we acne.org folks discovered as well. Good to know that its in the product book too. This website that Jodiat found really spells it out and explains the taurine connection too. How much do you take? (I'm sorry, I know I've probably already asked...but the book says 2-4 of 500mg...seems alot. I think that would be great for a month andthen drop down to 1x. Thats what I hope anyway.)

I can't understand that site. I can't understand it unless it's written in Dr. Seuss language. I wish I could figure out what Phase I and Phase II were. I am drinking detox tea for my liver and taking colon cleanse supplements, but that's it. I don't know whether I need to add CDG or not. I know Jodiat would say I do ( :D ) but I already take so many supplements. Ugh.

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Jodiat's reply is right on.

I'm waiting around for UPS to deliver my DIM right now (although I've heard there are labor strikes today :( ) then I'm off to the HFS to try to see if I can get a steady supply of CDG. I believe I will be taking it for the long term, regardless of how everything else goes (unless I decide to go into seclusion in the mountains and become a goat herder--then it'll be "toxins, what toxins?" lol)

I think CDG addresses some things that diet may not adequately address in "modern" times. So some of the supplements that people are currently taking, they can get from food (i.e. vitamin C from citrus fruit), but the CDG we need to combat pollutants, etc causes the supplement to make sense. If you want to decrease pill-popping, you might drop supplementation of other generally-available-in-food stuff in favor of this.

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Hi all,

I have been reading through all of the DIM threads from start and think it's great what you are doing here! I'm not too sure though I fully understand what your current conclusions are. So I was wondering if you, maybe in particular Jodiat, could give a short summarization of how you think acne should be treated with DIM;

For example:

- Take the recommended dose of DIM along with CDG and Taurine.

- Stop taking the CDG daily after e.g. 2 weeks and then continue taking it weekly.

- After a few months only take the DIM and Taurine once a week as well.

- Keep eating cruciferous vegetables and apples!

By the way; I found a website offering both DIM and CDG with a discount: http://www.vitacost.com/Natures-Way-DIM-Pl...la-120-Capsules Good deal? :clap:

--------------

edit:

Another question: Is overdosing possible regarding DIM, CDG and Taurine, respectively?

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Jodiat's reply is right on.

I'm waiting around for UPS to deliver my DIM right now (although I've heard there are labor strikes today :( ) then I'm off to the HFS to try to see if I can get a steady supply of CDG. I believe I will be taking it for the long term, regardless of how everything else goes (unless I decide to go into seclusion in the mountains and become a goat herder--then it'll be "toxins, what toxins?" lol)

I think CDG addresses some things that diet may not adequately address in "modern" times. So some of the supplements that people are currently taking, they can get from food (i.e. vitamin C from citrus fruit), but the CDG we need to combat pollutants, etc causes the supplement to make sense. If you want to decrease pill-popping, you might drop supplementation of other generally-available-in-food stuff in favor of this.

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Mine FINALLY arrived from Amazon's Vitamin Shoppe. This is huge for me as it was the first time for ordering stuff from home to Greece. It was expensive as hell and I should've bought alot more to ride the $50 delivery fee...but I was too stupid and at the time I ordered and I didn't even know to get taurine and CDG and stuff. aarghh! :evil:

Anyway, now I have this innocent little box of pills sitting in front of me that represents a week's worth of studying and planning and I don't know what to do!!! Well, I'll sideline it I guess and pack up my little boy for a trip to the HFS. I just hope that goes well. There have been city-wide power outages today due to labor strikes. Isn't Greece just lovely?

If this stuff has like NO effect on me, I'll be really pissed off. But I'll be happy if any of my research helped others. And to think, more than anything I ordered this because I especially want to deal with some mood, insomnia, and other hormonal issues. I just hope it doesn't end up clearing my cloggy pores but turning me into permanent PMS bitch from hell or something. That'd be ironic, huh? :cool:

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Im thiking of your long term health tho, CDG is somthing that you can use long term while DIM is somthing short term.

Phase one and two are different detox pathways. Phase one binds toxins from diet and environment into less harmful substances but this method creates free radicals! This is why Vitamin ACE help acne and the liver as they protect agaianst oxidative damage. Phase one can cause a problem like phase 2 if you take low amounts of antioxidents.

Phase two binds other substances to phase one substances and also deals with excess hormones and toxins. It binds a sulphur or protein to the hormone/toxin and allows it to be flushed from the body.

Both phase 1 and 2 are excreted via the kidneys (urine) and bile salts (bowels).

IMO more ppl will be using phase two liver enhancers while using DIM...I do think progesterone cream might be better then DIM or flax anyway.

For CDG ive taken 6 500mg tabs per day, 3grams basically. This is a fair ammount but the ammout you will need depends on 1) state of your liver 2)ammount of DIM,flax,soya,I3C you take. To be safe I would take 2 or 3 times the ammont in CDG to DIM your on. If your very new to any form of detoxing/hormone chnging I would include:

Fiber - To get the bowels moving

Probiotics - Absorb/breakdown food, helps bowel movements and helps create a health bowel

Aloe vera and L-Glutamine - To help rebuild the bowels from candida aka leaky gut

I think this is important because the longer you take to crap the more chance the toxins/hormones you flush from the liver have of being re-absorbed BACK into the blood stream thus never completing the cycle.

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[...]

Your question is harder for me to answer as I use Flax lignans (almost the same method of use as DIM so I think I could answer it). Over dosing of DIM would be beneficial in the begining but this is only true IF your liver is not stressed which simply isnt our case. Now after taking 5 grams of Flax for a week (similar to 5 grams of DIM) I would say I tested myself in the wrong way. I got ill and broken out reallllly bad! Not good. So If you plan on over dosing on anything I would use CDG or Taurine in larger ammounts over DIM. Taurine is ok for 3grams per day and CDG 3 grams is ok aswell but CDG is quite expensive but worth it.

My summary atm would to be to use DIM and Progesterone cream. This is a different arguement so ill stick to DIM only.

For DIM I would start out at half the dose the label says for 3 days, then increase to the full dose after this. Simply because you dont want to shock your liver and playing it safe for a few days is better then nursing more red marks from acne. If you have it start using CDG or Taurine (or any other phase 2 helper) from day one. The ammount can be quite liberal for these 2 (upto 3grams).

Stick to this for 3 weeks then your liver has some freedom and you could work yourself up to a gram of DIM (5 lots of 200mg)...do this slowly over 3 months. At the end of 3 months, your maybe on 1gram of DIM and 3 grams of Taurine/CDG then I would cut down on both. If however your still not happy you could play around alot more with the DIM ammount while keeping CDG/taurine to 3 grams.

To maintain I would use DIM every 3/4 days with CDG/Taurine. Now letting diet take over by eating plenty of lower sugar fruits and veg thats are full of Sulphur and DIM (i.e. Broccoli) with moderate but not excess protein while increasing fat to help bile production. This will take over your supplements and is an added reason to alter diet to help acne.

p.s. IMO Progesterone cream is where its at, at least for women maybe less for men. I know DIM is big right now but I do think looking at the science behind it progesterone cream if much better, works faster and fixes the problem more soundly then changing Estrogen motabolism. Maybe Progesterone + DIM is need for some people.

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use a breakout?

3) As long as your taking DIM and CDG (and Taurine?) in the recommended dosages, how could you then still suffer from breakouts?

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Hi guys,

I'm really confused and hope someone can help me! I have no idea whether I am estrogen or androgen dominant! I seem to have symptoms of both...I have a lot of the estrogen dominant symptoms (fibrocysts, mood swings, bloating at certain times of the month, irregular periods), but I do have one major androgen dominance symptom (I think this is androgen dominance) very oily skin/hair...my oil has decreased over the last couple of months through diet and skin care etc...BUT now I'm kind of worried about taking DIM. I've read that it can make androgen dominance worse and women who think they may be androgen dominant should not take it! I wonder if this is one reason it makes some people break out? If you are really estrogen dominant, DIM may help but if you are androgen dominant (even with some symptoms of elevated estrgoen) maybe it makes your acne worse? I read that those with PCOS shouldn't take DIM...what do you guys think?

I;m only taking 1 nature's way per day...but do you guys know of something else I can take that will not allow my androgens get out of control? Would CDG work for that? HELP!

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Sie: Im glad your stuffs arrived. That would be ironic but have some faith and get dome CDG or/and Taurine and take more of this then DIM and youll be on your way to testing it out.

Merf: Broken record or not Im really interested in this even if it just helps my fiancee and not me in the slightest, I love learning about the body. You do sound like you have it figured out with what you say you take so Im not worried over you as much as new people jmping in the deep end and not understanding how it works and why it goes wrong.

Daniell: I dont want to offend but spend a little more tme reading this thread because I think what youve said lacks understanding of what DIMs role is and how CDG helps.

1. Yes Its ok to take DIM and CDG with Taurine together...Id advocate to anyone playing with hormonal balance.

2. Yes taking larger ammounts in theory could break you out. To explain again. Once the hormones (released by DIM) is binded in phase 2 of liver detoxifying (horomone + CDG/Taurine) it has to then be expelled from the body. Its the job of the Kidneys and Bowels now. Drinking more water helps and having more bowel movements help. To address bowel movements add Fibre, Aloe vera and L-Glutamine.

3. You can breakout still breakout from:

Candida/Mold overgrowth

Stress

Parasites

Enviornment

Poor diet

Poor bowel transit times and congested liver

Lack of Omegas

Poor blood sugar motabalism

Ban88: From what ive read its likely you are Estrogen dominant but if your female its more of a problem yet males are in just as much danger of being ED from diet, drugs and environment. The rest of what yu are saying im going to research more myself to fully understand. Ill add my input at a later date, maybe tomorrow and ill spend time tonight reading it up.

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Hi guys,

I'm really confused and hope someone can help me! I have no idea whether I am estrogen or androgen dominant! I seem to have symptoms of both...I have a lot of the estrogen dominant symptoms (fibrocysts, mood swings, bloating at certain times of the month, irregular periods), but I do have one major androgen dominance symptom (I think this is androgen dominance) very oily skin/hair...my oil has decreased over the last couple of months through diet and skin care etc...BUT now I'm kind of worried about taking DIM. I've read that it can make androgen dominance worse and women who think they may be androgen dominant should not take it! I wonder if this is one reason it makes some people break out? If you are really estrogen dominant, DIM may help but if you are androgen dominant (even with some symptoms of elevated estrgoen) maybe it makes your acne worse? I read that those with PCOS shouldn't take DIM...what do you guys think?

I;m only taking 1 nature's way per day...but do you guys know of something else I can take that will not allow my androgens get out of control? Would CDG work for that? HELP!

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I wonder if using DIM topically may work. Other things like egcg, zinc, b5, niacin etc, all have either dht inhibiting effects or anti-inflammatory action and have been shown to do the same thing where it's applied except targeted and faster. Egcg for example, must be taken in very large doses to reach the cells of the epidermis, but work almost immediately with only a 2 or 3% topical concentration.

For those that don't have an actual hormonal problem and just an over-sensitivity to dht, estrogens or other hormones, or who doesn't want to mess around with them- this could be a far more viable not to mention economical approach.

I'm thinkin of crackin open one of my NW DIM's and mixing it with some of my moisturizer at say, 5% and using that mixture on one side of my face and the normal one on the other (so long as it doesnt turn super green-although some anti-redness creams use a green tint..lol). I'd probably test it on my arm or something first though....just a thought

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I wonder if using DIM topically may work. Other things like egcg, zinc, b5, niacin etc, all have either dht inhibiting effects or anti-inflammatory action and have been shown to do the same thing where it's applied except targeted and faster. Egcg for example, must be taken in very large doses to reach the cells of the epidermis, but work almost immediately with only a 2 or 3% topical concentration.

For those that don't have an actual hormonal problem and just an over-sensitivity to dht, estrogens or other hormones, or who doesn't want to mess around with them- this could be a far more viable not to mention economical approach.

I'm thinkin of crackin open one of my NW DIM's and mixing it with some of my moisturizer at say, 5% and using that mixture on one side of my face and the normal one on the other (so long as it doesnt turn super green-although some anti-redness creams use a green tint..lol). I'd probably test it on my arm or something first though....just a thought

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Sie: Im glad your stuffs arrived. That would be ironic but have some faith and get dome CDG or/and Taurine and take more of this then DIM and youll be on your way to testing it out.

Merf: Broken record or not Im really interested in this even if it just helps my fiancee and not me in the slightest, I love learning about the body. You do sound like you have it figured out with what you say you take so Im not worried over you as much as new people jmping in the deep end and not understanding how it works and why it goes wrong.

Daniell: I dont want to offend but spend a little more tme reading this thread because I think what youve said lacks understanding of what DIMs role is and how CDG helps.

1. Yes Its ok to take DIM and CDG with Taurine together...Id advocate to anyone playing with hormonal balance.

2. Yes taking larger ammounts in theory could break you out. To explain again. Once the hormones (released by DIM) is binded in phase 2 of liver detoxifying (horomone + CDG/Taurine) it has to then be expelled from the body. Its the job of the Kidneys and Bowels now. Drinking more water helps and having more bowel movements help. To address bowel movements add Fibre, Aloe vera and L-Glutamine.

3. You can breakout still breakout from:

Candida/Mold overgrowth

Stress

Parasites

Enviornment

Poor diet

Poor bowel transit times and congested liver

Lack of Omegas

Poor blood sugar motabalism

Ban88: From what ive read its likely you are Estrogen dominant but if your female its more of a problem yet males are in just as much danger of being ED from diet, drugs and environment. The rest of what yu are saying im going to research more myself to fully understand. Ill add my input at a later date, maybe tomorrow and ill spend time tonight reading it up.

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Sie: Im glad your stuffs arrived. That would be ironic but have some faith and get dome CDG or/and Taurine and take more of this then DIM and youll be on your way to testing it out.

Merf: Broken record or not Im really interested in this even if it just helps my fiancee and not me in the slightest, I love learning about the body. You do sound like you have it figured out with what you say you take so Im not worried over you as much as new people jmping in the deep end and not understanding how it works and why it goes wrong.

Daniell: I dont want to offend but spend a little more tme reading this thread because I think what youve said lacks understanding of what DIMs role is and how CDG helps.

1. Yes Its ok to take DIM and CDG with Taurine together...Id advocate to anyone playing with hormonal balance.

2. Yes taking larger ammounts in theory could break you out. To explain again. Once the hormones (released by DIM) is binded in phase 2 of liver detoxifying (horomone + CDG/Taurine) it has to then be expelled from the body. Its the job of the Kidneys and Bowels now. Drinking more water helps and having more bowel movements help. To address bowel movements add Fibre, Aloe vera and L-Glutamine.

3. You can breakout still breakout from:

Candida/Mold overgrowth

Stress

Parasites

Enviornment

Poor diet

Poor bowel transit times and congested liver

Lack of Omegas

Poor blood sugar motabalism

Ban88: From what ive read its likely you are Estrogen dominant but if your female its more of a problem yet males are in just as much danger of being ED from diet, drugs and environment. The rest of what yu are saying im going to research more myself to fully understand. Ill add my input at a later date, maybe tomorrow and ill spend time tonight reading it up.

Hey Jodiat,

I'm 99% sure estrogen dominance is an issue for me, but is it possible to have both excess estrogen and excess androgens? Can excess oil come from something else besides androgens? I think I will stick with 1 natures way dim pill for now and watch my oiliness and acne very closely...I'm also thinking I'll add CDG this week. Thanks for your help :) How is it going for you?

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