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the limits of diet/holistic health, and keratinization

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Hi, it occured today when my entire family went to souplantation (that's an all you can eat buffet) and I stayed home and ate lentils that perhaps the holistic world is not as much a cure than it is an obsession.

In the world of approaches to acne, by this I mean anything from accutane to BP to paleo diets, etc. we see success stories from ALL of these approaches, which is why people still try them.

BP, for example. This is the product in which regimen dan started the site with. Hundreds of people have success with this.

Many people have success with other topicals as well. Sulfur especially I've noticed has helped people.

My point being: topicals can often get the job done. For the people that post here, do you still use topicals? and because they aren't working, you're switching to a holistic approach? Or do you use the holistic approach because you don't want to be dependent on topicals, or are avoiding the side effects they carry? (damage to skin, etc.).

Personally I've tried to utilize BOTH for the past year or so, with mixed results. That isn't to say I don't think diet affects acne, because I'm 100% convinced that it does. As I've experimented for months to see HOW diet affects acne, I'm actually becoming MORE impressed with the effectiveness of topicals, sulfur in particular, as compared to nutrition.which leads to my next question.

Looking through the archives, i was really impressed with this post:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=keratinization

to summarize, it basically says that to get rid of acne, one must control KERATINIZATION. Killing bacteria, decreasing sebum production/composition, decreasing inflammation are not nearly as effective. (bacteria will form anyway if pores are blocked, many clear people have oily skin, and inflammation is a natural immune response).

Also good:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=keratinization

Now I don't know nearly as much as a lot of members on this board, and many things are above my head. But it seems that perhaps more interest should be put into this? I read through tons and tons of old posts and these really stand out. Taking that into consideration then, what can be done to regulate keratinization?

I did my google homework and the general consensus was:

1) Salicylic acid, glycolic acid (can damage skin over time)

2) Sulfur (topical)

3) retinoids (potentially dangerous)

4)azelaic acid

I know almost 99% sure that sulfur topically DEFINITELY helps clear me up. azelaic acid I'll experiment with maybe. But for those of you who understand proteins and the way the body uses them better than me (I don't very well), could you please explain:

1) Besides omega 3's, vitamin a, what can be done to normalize hyperkeratinization? (well at least partially) Including both internal and external methods.

2) Will consuming excess protein really lead to excess keratin? (since keratin is a protein, after all)

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...&hl=keratin

If so, would reducing protein intake, or limiting it to "clean" proteins fix the problem?

3) how exactly does this process work? as in: the type/amount of protein consumed, how does it manifest itself in keratinization?

sorry for drawing this out so long. thanks for replies!

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For the people that post here, do you still use topicals? and because they aren't working, you're switching to a holistic approach? Or do you use the holistic approach because you don't want to be dependent on topicals, or are avoiding the side effects they carry? (damage to skin, etc.).

It's a little of both really. I'm back to using some BP at the moment to try to clear myself up a bit. Basically I went through all the topicals I could find with limited success, and so I tried the holistic stuff (again with limited success). I'm worried by the side effects of topicals but if they help stop acne forming they are better than scarring and the massive pustules I get when I break out.

I wanted to try dietary methods because I don't like feeling dependent on topicals and having to have a BP tube with me when I travel, or not being able to stay at a friend's house because I have to do my regimen. Diet seems a better way to go, but it hasn't solved the problem so far. I know that dairy and gluten make it worse and that saw palmetto helps a lot, but everything else hasn't done much.

I think I'm always going to have a problem with keratinisation because tackling oil production and changing diet hasn't really done that much. To be honest I feel like a sell out going back to using BP because I promised myself I would tackle the problem naturally, but there doesn't seem to be much else I can do at the moment.

I shall try sulphur though. Do you mean taking a supplement like MSM or applying sulphur topically?

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Hi, it occured today when my entire family went to souplantation (that's an all you can eat buffet) and I stayed home and ate lentils that perhaps the holistic world is not as much a cure than it is an obsession.

In the world of approaches to acne, by this I mean anything from accutane to BP to paleo diets, etc. we see success stories from ALL of these approaches, which is why people still try them.

BP, for example. This is the product in which regimen dan started the site with. Hundreds of people have success with this.

Many people have success with other topicals as well. Sulfur especially I've noticed has helped people.

My point being: topicals can often get the job done. For the people that post here, do you still use topicals? and because they aren't working, you're switching to a holistic approach? Or do you use the holistic approach because you don't want to be dependent on topicals, or are avoiding the side effects they carry? (damage to skin, etc.).

Personally I've tried to utilize BOTH for the past year or so, with mixed results. That isn't to say I don't think diet affects acne, because I'm 100% convinced that it does. As I've experimented for months to see HOW diet affects acne, I'm actually becoming MORE impressed with the effectiveness of topicals, sulfur in particular, as compared to nutrition.which leads to my next question.

Looking through the archives, i was really impressed with this post:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=keratinization

to summarize, it basically says that to get rid of acne, one must control KERATINIZATION. Killing bacteria, decreasing sebum production/composition, decreasing inflammation are not nearly as effective. (bacteria will form anyway if pores are blocked, many clear people have oily skin, and inflammation is a natural immune response).

Also good:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=keratinization

Now I don't know nearly as much as a lot of members on this board, and many things are above my head. But it seems that perhaps more interest should be put into this? I read through tons and tons of old posts and these really stand out. Taking that into consideration then, what can be done to regulate keratinization?

I did my google homework and the general consensus was:

1) Salicylic acid, glycolic acid (can damage skin over time)

2) Sulfur (topical)

3) retinoids (potentially dangerous)

4)azelaic acid

I know almost 99% sure that sulfur topically DEFINITELY helps clear me up. azelaic acid I'll experiment with maybe. But for those of you who understand proteins and the way the body uses them better than me (I don't very well), could you please explain:

1) Besides omega 3's, vitamin a, what can be done to normalize hyperkeratinization? (well at least partially) Including both internal and external methods.

2) Will consuming excess protein really lead to excess keratin? (since keratin is a protein, after all)

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...&hl=keratin

If so, would reducing protein intake, or limiting it to "clean" proteins fix the problem?

3) how exactly does this process work? as in: the type/amount of protein consumed, how does it manifest itself in keratinization?

sorry for drawing this out so long. thanks for replies!

1) You can try to reduce the amount of insulin your body produces and lessen the amount of IGF (Insulin Growth Factor). Supposedly these can lead to hyperkeritinization. Zinc and other nutrients will help too. You need to make sure you don't have deficiencies in anything.

2)Eating excess protein will not at all lead to excess keratin. Your body only produces what it needs, unless there is some other problems like a nutrient deficiency so it does not properly control how much is being made. The more protein I eat the better my skin looks. Right now my skin is looking really good and I eat a huge chunk of animal meat with every meal. I would guess that protein accounts for close to 40% of my 3000+ calorie diet.

3) It doesn't lead to excess Keratinization, so don't worry about it.

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1) Besides omega 3's, vitamin a, what can be done to normalize hyperkeratinization? (well at least partially) Including both internal and external methods.

Zinc, Saw palmetto or beta sitosterol, green tea.

The first combo I tried was 50mgs of zinc, Saw palmetto and 1,500 - 2,000 mgs of vitamin C. My skin got a lot less oily and my face was usually clear of any inflamed acne. This is the first thing that ever helped me (other than identifying an allergy years ago).

I wasn't taking the C for acne, but here's a recent discussion about how it can help:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=170228&hl=

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For the people that post here, do you still use topicals? and because they aren't working, you're switching to a holistic approach? Or do you use the holistic approach because you don't want to be dependent on topicals, or are avoiding the side effects they carry? (damage to skin, etc.).

It's a little of both really. I'm back to using some BP at the moment to try to clear myself up a bit. Basically I went through all the topicals I could find with limited success, and so I tried the holistic stuff (again with limited success). I'm worried by the side effects of topicals but if they help stop acne forming they are better than scarring and the massive pustules I get when I break out.

I wanted to try dietary methods because I don't like feeling dependent on topicals and having to have a BP tube with me when I travel, or not being able to stay at a friend's house because I have to do my regimen. Diet seems a better way to go, but it hasn't solved the problem so far. I know that dairy and gluten make it worse and that saw palmetto helps a lot, but everything else hasn't done much.

I think I'm always going to have a problem with keratinisation because tackling oil production and changing diet hasn't really done that much. To be honest I feel like a sell out going back to using BP because I promised myself I would tackle the problem naturally, but there doesn't seem to be much else I can do at the moment.

I shall try sulphur though. Do you mean taking a supplement like MSM or applying sulphur topically?

It's topical sulfur. the only kind i can find in the states though is the clearasil adult acne treatment. most effective topical ive found. when you have a patch of clogged pores (that aren't inflamed, meaning those little skin colored bumps), the sulfur on it for a couple days clears it. (so it gets rid of "problem areas." right now im just having problems with random pustules that come up).

1) You can try to reduce the amount of insulin your body produces and lessen the amount of IGF (Insulin Growth Factor). Supposedly these can lead to hyperkeritinization. Zinc and other nutrients will help too. You need to make sure you don't have deficiencies in anything.

2)Eating excess protein will not at all lead to excess keratin. Your body only produces what it needs, unless there is some other problems like a nutrient deficiency so it does not properly control how much is being made. The more protein I eat the better my skin looks. Right now my skin is looking really good and I eat a huge chunk of animal meat with every meal. I would guess that protein accounts for close to 40% of my 3000+ calorie diet.

3) It doesn't lead to excess Keratinization, so don't worry about it.

hmm okay, thank you. To decrease insulin production and lessen IGF, are the same steps used as those to increase insulin sensitivity? (low GL diet, omega 3-6 ration, etc.) or are there different steps?

and what's your opinion on the whole "dirty protein" leads to hyperkeratinization thing?

1) Besides omega 3's, vitamin a, what can be done to normalize hyperkeratinization? (well at least partially) Including both internal and external methods.

Zinc, Saw palmetto or beta sitosterol, green tea.

The first combo I tried was 50mgs of zinc, Saw palmetto and 1,500 - 2,000 mgs of vitamin C. My skin got a lot less oily and my face was usually clear of any inflamed acne. This is the first thing that ever helped me (other than identifying an allergy years ago).

I wasn't taking the C for acne, but here's a recent discussion about how it can help:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...=170228&hl=

Hmm so vitamin C does help keratinization normalize at well? i forgot to mention i just started taking it a couple days ago.. too early to tell if it helps yet. Out of the 3 supplements you took, which one do you think was the most effective?

Thanks!

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It's topical sulfur. the only kind i can find in the states though is the clearasil adult acne treatment. most effective topical ive found. when you have a patch of clogged pores (that aren't inflamed, meaning those little skin colored bumps), the sulfur on it for a couple days clears it. (so it gets rid of "problem areas." right now im just having problems with random pustules that come up).

i used to use the proactiv refining mask, which contains sulfur. it works pretty well. also plexion is pretty good. i haven't used it but my brother did. it's prescription only though.

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It's topical sulfur. the only kind i can find in the states though is the clearasil adult acne treatment. most effective topical ive found. when you have a patch of clogged pores (that aren't inflamed, meaning those little skin colored bumps), the sulfur on it for a couple days clears it. (so it gets rid of "problem areas." right now im just having problems with random pustules that come up).

i used to use the proactiv refining mask, which contains sulfur. it works pretty well. also plexion is pretty good. i haven't used it but my brother did. it's prescription only though.

What seems to be controling hyperkeratinization for me is : high quality food based multi-vitamin, food based B-vitamin complex, and avoiding all grains and sugars. Protein doesn't cause keratin buildup, it's an insulin/blood sugar related thing.

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