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So, I spoke too soon. I had a very bad breakout over the past few days....all over my chin and jawline. I look like a mess. I'm wondering if I should stop the EPO and just take the borage oil and lecithin, and replace the flaxseed oil with fish oil that has high epa and dha. Anyone have any suggestions? It's been a long battle with acne and I'm tired. :wall:

I would suggest focusing on a high epa fish oil.

flaxseed oil has linoleic acid(omega 6) which is our enemy and oleic acid (omega 9) which i think is either neutral or bad, oleic acid i heard was found in comedone plugs but i didnt get that info from a particularly reliable source so my opinion isnt yet solidified but i think its bad.

ok i used this to analyze epo and it aint good http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails....p;pid=NAP-04678

EPO would probably do some good for the short term maybe 1-3 weeks, but its gonna do more harm then good because of all the linoleic acid(omega 6) it contains, this is the main omega 6 fatty acid from which all other omega 6 is manufactured from.

My opinion now on epo is that it actually may be the worst thing for your acne. as a ratio of la/gla its 7.4:1 thats way too much la just to get a little gla.

Borage oil on the other hand http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails....p;pid=NOW-01722

is way better then epo as far as a source for gla. As a ratio of la/gla its 1.2:1

Fish oil has no omega 6 at all, plus it has epa and dha, epa is going to be the most potent acne inhibitor as it creates anti inflammatory eicosanoids

and competes with arachidonic acid, which is one of the main reasons why you would supplement with gla, gla also produces some anti inflammatory eicosanoids as well.

Also it is important that you reach a ratio of o6/o3 of 1:1 and by taking flax and epo you were no where near that ratio.

so match your omega 6 intake in grams with omega 3 in equal or greater amounts to reach 1:1 and also take a borage oil (not too much) for maybe two to four weeks or so or however long it would take to cure a defieciency, which right now i do not think you have so you specifically could actually skip the borage oil.

good luck.

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Can someone educate me on one thing.

Borage oil and EPO is very high in Omega 6

http://www.indexpharmaceuticals.com/lutein-omega6.html\

So why is that we need more omega 6's, when the problem lie's in that we aren't getting enough omega 3's to get closer to the 1:1 ratio which also reduces inflamation/sebum production and it's viscosity?

It doesn't make sense to me.

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Those sites you linked to are journastic articles and of no relevance. Link to studies.
I disagree, it has relevance. http://www.newstarget.com/020637.html is a summation of a scientific study called a press release. Just in case you didn't read it, here it is again. :rolleyes:

"Before you bite into that burger or devour that doughnut, first chew on this: New research shows that just one meal high in saturated fat can affect the body's ability to protect itself against some of the underlying causes of heart disease and stroke.

The research, conducted at The Heart Research Institute in Sydney, Australia, appears in the Aug. 15, 2006, issue of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.

According to the study, even a single meal high in saturated fat can reduce the ability of the body's "good" cholesterol, or high-density lipoproteins (HDL), to protect the inner lining of the arteries from inflammatory agents that promote the formation of artery-clogging plaques. A single high-fat meal also can affect the ability of the arteries to expand in order to carry adequate blood to tissues and organs.

On the other hand, according to the research, eating a meal high in polyunsaturated fat, a healthier form of fat, can increase the anti-inflammatory properties of HDL, helping to protect the inner lining of the arteries, called the endothelium, from plaque buildup.

"The take-home, public-health message is this: It's further evidence to support the need to aggressively reduce the amount of saturated fat consumed in the diet," said researcher Stephen J. Nicholls, MB, BS, PhD, now a cardiologist at Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. "This study helps to explain the mechanisms by which saturated fat supports the formation of plaques in the arterial wall, and we know these plaques are the major cause of heart attack and stroke."

Saturated fats are found in both animal and plant products, and typically are solid at room temperature. Examples include butter, lard and palm oil. The American College of Cardiology and the American Heart Association recommend that people limit their intake of saturated fat to no more than 7 percent of their total daily calories. Polyunsaturated fats, on the other hand, come mainly from plants and are liquid at room temperature. Examples include sunflower and corn oil.

For the study, Dr. Nicholls and his colleagues recruited 14 healthy volunteers and supplied them with two meals, eaten one month apart. The volunteers, ranging in age from 18 to 40, were examined and had blood drawn before eating (following an overnight fast), three hours after eating and again six hours after eating their supplied meals. Neither the participants nor the researchers knew which meal was eaten during which visit.

The meals were identical, except that one was high in saturated fat (coconut oil), while the other was high in polyunsaturated fat (safflower oil). Each meal consisted of a slice of carrot cake and a milkshake. All meals were specially prepared so that each participant consumed 1 gram of fat per kilogram of body weight – or 1 gram of fat for every 2.2 pounds. (For a 150-pound person, that's nearly the fat equivalent of eating a double cheeseburger, a large order of french fries and a large milkshake at one meal.)

In examining the volunteers, Dr. Nicholls and his colleagues found that after three hours, the saturated fat meal had reduced the ability of the endothelium to expand the arteries in order to increase blood flow. The researchers determined this by using a blood pressure cuff to restrict blood flow and then monitoring the body's response. The polyunsaturated meal also reduced this ability slightly, but the results were not statistically significant.

After six hours, researchers found the meal high in saturated fat had diminished the protective qualities of HDL, allowing more inflammatory agents to accumulate in the arteries than had been present before the volunteers ate. The polyunsaturated meal, however, seemed to boost the anti-inflammatory abilities of the body's good cholesterol, with the researchers finding fewer inflammatory agents in the arteries than before the volunteers ate.

"In putting this all together," Dr. Nicholls said, "we have a difference between the two meals regarding a number of factors that influence the early stages of plaque formation. We have a situation where consumption of a single meal containing a high level of saturated fat is associated with impairment of vascular reactivity and impairment of a normal protective property of HDL. In contrast, consumption of a meal high in polyunsaturated fat results in HDL that is more protective.

"It is a small study," he concluded, "but I think the findings have broad implication because diet and exercise are the cornerstones of all strategies for preventing heart disease."

Robert Vogel, MD, a cardiologist and professor of medicine at the University of Maryland Medical Center, did not participate in the research, but agrees it provides "one more nail in the coffin" against eating diets high in saturated fat.

"This study helps to flesh out just why we shouldn't eat too much saturated fat," Dr. Vogel said. "Traditionally, we think of unhealthy foods as raising cholesterol or raising blood pressure, but this demonstrates that depending on what you eat, you can actually change the effect of HDL – typically thought of as 'good' cholesterol – from protective to detrimental. This opens up new insights and avenues for research."

You're right, there have been plenty of studies regarding saturated fats and health issues. NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOW THE LINK THOUGH. Except those that include margarine saturated fats (chemically modified) which we all know are bad.

Notice that the saturated fat tested was coconut oil, and not trans fat or any other chemically modified fat:

"The meals were identical, except that one was high in saturated fat (coconut oil), while the other was high in polyunsaturated fat (safflower oil)."

"After six hours, researchers found the meal high in saturated fat had diminished the protective qualities of HDL, allowing more inflammatory agents to accumulate in the arteries than had been present before the volunteers ate. The polyunsaturated meal, however, seemed to boost the anti-inflammatory abilities of the body's good cholesterol, with the researchers finding fewer inflammatory agents in the arteries than before the volunteers ate. "

There have been plenty of studies which show the positive health effects of saturated fats, however.

There's a ton of arciles i could link but i recommend you start with Gary Taubes revolutationary article in New York Times

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...mp;pagewanted=1

Those sites you linked to are journastic articles and of no relevance. Link to studies.

So now you give me a link to an article written in the New York Times... :rolleyes:

.....please.

Then you give me a link that is basically a page designed to sell a book:

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

Please, I really want the book that is going to tell me how all the tests about saturated fats being bad for health is a lie...please i will pay hundreds for that book and the knowledge that allows me to eat animal fats and other saturated fats without any health repercussions...

[note:- that was sarcasm]

I think I might write a book about how you can eat all the junk food and crap that you want, and that by avoiding vegetables you will cure your acne...I bet you that would sell more than a book that tells you to eat healthily to cure acne!

"The Cholesterol Myths" has shock value that plays on the fact that people want to believe that saturated fats are fine for health. That is why someone would buy it. The only reason. Fantasy.

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Can someone educate me on one thing.

Borage oil and EPO is very high in Omega 6

http://www.indexpharmaceuticals.com/lutein-omega6.html\

So why is that we need more omega 6's, when the problem lie's in that we aren't getting enough omega 3's to get closer to the 1:1 ratio which also reduces inflamation/sebum production and it's viscosity?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Most people get too much omega 6 but its in the form of Linoleic Acid (LA). Evening Primrose and borage are to provide you gamma-linolenic acid (GLA); they contain 10% and 20% GLA, respectively. without getting into too many details, GLA is generally anti-inflammatory and good for acne sufferers while LA can be pro-inflammatory bad for acne.

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Can someone educate me on one thing.

Borage oil and EPO is very high in Omega 6

http://www.indexpharmaceuticals.com/lutein-omega6.html\

So why is that we need more omega 6's, when the problem lie's in that we aren't getting enough omega 3's to get closer to the 1:1 ratio which also reduces inflamation/sebum production and it's viscosity?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Most people get too much omega 6 but its in the form of Linoleic Acid (LA). Evening Primrose and borage are to provide you gamma-linolenic acid (GLA); they contain 10% and 20% GLA, respectively. without getting into too many details, GLA is generally anti-inflammatory and good for acne sufferers while LA can be pro-inflammatory bad for acne.

Very nice! Thank you, makes complete sense.

Also, which foods generally contains Linoleic Acids? I want to avoid it, and perhaps try that first, since fish oil seems to be working well. If it doesn't warrant pure success for myself, I will add some Borage oil since the gla content is much higher (20%)

What results have you seen with GLA's? Was it similar to fish oil where you'd get less oil production and less thick sebum?

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Can someone educate me on one thing.

Borage oil and EPO is very high in Omega 6

http://www.indexpharmaceuticals.com/lutein-omega6.html\

So why is that we need more omega 6's, when the problem lie's in that we aren't getting enough omega 3's to get closer to the 1:1 ratio which also reduces inflamation/sebum production and it's viscosity?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Most people get too much omega 6 but its in the form of Linoleic Acid (LA). Evening Primrose and borage are to provide you gamma-linolenic acid (GLA); they contain 10% and 20% GLA, respectively. without getting into too many details, GLA is generally anti-inflammatory and good for acne sufferers while LA can be pro-inflammatory bad for acne.

Very nice! Thank you, makes complete sense.

Also, which foods generally contains Linoleic Acids? I want to avoid it, and perhaps try that first, since fish oil seems to be working well. If it doesn't warrant pure success for myself, I will add some Borage oil since the gla content is much higher (20%)

What results have you seen with GLA's? Was it similar to fish oil where you'd get less oil production and less thick sebum?

well linoleic acid (LA) isn't always bad. afterall, it is an "essential" fatty acid. it depends on the person and what his/her body does with it. i learned much of this from reading the e-book written by someoneintheuk (who posted above).

the body has the ability to convert LA to GLA, or LA can be converted to arachidonic acid (AA) which is pro-inflammatory. for acne sufferers, the latter is probably happening more often. as far as i know, the only significant sources GLA are borage, blackcurrent, and evening primrose oils. so any food that is high in omega 6 is probably high in LA. borage contains 20-24% GLA and much of the rest is LA (and a little omega 9). so for borage or epo to be effective your body needs to be able to convert LA to GLA. so the foods to avoid are are those that inhibit the conversion of LA to GLA...red meat, dairy, eggs, heated vegetable oils, trans-fat.

as far as my results....my skin is probably the best it has been in years, although i'm not yet 100% clear. basically i'm following a regimen that is almost everything in bob mckee's post plus some other things. as far as efa's, i'm taking epo, borage, and fish oil.

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Can someone educate me on one thing.

Borage oil and EPO is very high in Omega 6

http://www.indexpharmaceuticals.com/lutein-omega6.html\

So why is that we need more omega 6's, when the problem lie's in that we aren't getting enough omega 3's to get closer to the 1:1 ratio which also reduces inflamation/sebum production and it's viscosity?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Most people get too much omega 6 but its in the form of Linoleic Acid (LA). Evening Primrose and borage are to provide you gamma-linolenic acid (GLA); they contain 10% and 20% GLA, respectively. without getting into too many details, GLA is generally anti-inflammatory and good for acne sufferers while LA can be pro-inflammatory bad for acne.

Very nice! Thank you, makes complete sense.

Also, which foods generally contains Linoleic Acids? I want to avoid it, and perhaps try that first, since fish oil seems to be working well. If it doesn't warrant pure success for myself, I will add some Borage oil since the gla content is much higher (20%)

What results have you seen with GLA's? Was it similar to fish oil where you'd get less oil production and less thick sebum?

well linoleic acid (LA) isn't always bad. afterall, it is an "essential" fatty acid. it depends on the person and what his/her body does with it. i learned much of this from reading the e-book written by someoneintheuk (who posted above).

the body has the ability to convert LA to GLA, or LA can be converted to arachidonic acid (AA) which is pro-inflammatory. for acne sufferers, the latter is probably happening more often. as far as i know, the only significant sources GLA are borage, blackcurrent, and evening primrose oils. so any food that is high in omega 6 is probably high in LA. borage contains 20-24% GLA and much of the rest is LA (and a little omega 9). so for borage or epo to be effective your body needs to be able to convert LA to GLA. so the foods to avoid are are those that inhibit the conversion of LA to GLA...red meat, dairy, eggs, heated vegetable oils, trans-fat.

as far as my results....my skin is probably the best it has been in years, although i'm not yet 100% clear. basically i'm following a regimen that is almost everything in bob mckee's post plus some other things. as far as efa's, i'm taking epo, borage, and fish oil.

Very informative post, it clears up a lot of questions, thank you for taking the time to write that out! I'm also glad you've had success with this, and follow bob's regimen, there's so much truth to it and people need to listen. I'm happy for you :)

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someoneinuk, if you would take the time to READ things, you wouldn't be replying to me in such a manner. The reason i linked you up with Gary Taubes article is that he refers to a lot of actual research in his article, which you could then look up for yourself.

And i can see you didn't read Ulf Ravnskovs site. Please don't argue with me before reading what i have to say. We can return to this discussion when you've read up.

That press release you linked to is of no relevance. Such studies are generally frowned upon in the medical community.

Here's a list of real studies, the site is swedish but the reference list is in english

http://blogg.passagen.se/dahlqvistannika/?...kapliga_studier

I can't tell you which refer to cardio-vascular health... you'll have to read for yourself.

I could also link you up to at least three very recent swedish studies regarding saturated fats... of which all kill the old myth...

I could also link you up with studies which conclude that those polyunsaturated fats you speak of act inflammatory in regards to cardiovascular health, mainly because of the high content of omega-6 fatty acids... but i gotta go!

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Most of those studies from http://blogg.passagen.se/dahlqvistannika/?...kapliga_studier are about carbohydrates, not fats!!!! :rolleyes:

Here is a list of over 5000 studies regarding saturated fats and fats in general. The vast majority prove the link between sat. fats and bad health in many areas, such as cardiovascular health, heart health etc.

http://www.google.com/custom?q=saturated+f...tart=0&sa=N

So there are over 5000 studies for you to look through.

And i can see you didn't read Ulf Ravnskovs site. Please don't argue with me before reading what i have to say. We can return to this discussion when you've read up.

Actually i did read it and didnt think much of it. It contained a few statements without any supporting evidence. If you cannot see that it is a site geared towards selling a book then I cannot help you.

Further, if you subscribe to The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics then thats you choice. Thankfully, most people trust the thousands of studies that show saturated fats are indeed unhealthy.

As I said before, some people want to eat saturated fats without the stigma of knowing that it is unhealthy, so they find 'evidence' that shows it is actually a positive food choice....

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I have a couple of in depth questions:

1) I understand GLA is necessary, so how much GLA are we supposed to take?

2) I know that one of the main reasons EFA's are good is that is reduces the viscosity of sebum, which makes it help skin rather than block it, but is it only GLA's that do this? Or does fish oil (ALA's = alpha linolenic acid) also do this as well?

Because it seems I have less waxy sebum, but I wasn't sure if ALA's also do that, because it seems to be. Or does GLA do it more than ALA's do?

3) Can ALA's be convereted to GLA by the body? Because I've read that the body only uses the GLA's

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Sorry I didnt read through all the pages but can evening primrose oil be used by someone on birth control...since it messes with hormones...I'm on the shot. thanks!

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I have a couple of in depth questions:

1) I understand GLA is necessary, so how much GLA are we supposed to take?

2) I know that one of the main reasons EFA's are good is that is reduces the viscosity of sebum, which makes it help skin rather than block it, but is it only GLA's that do this? Or does fish oil (ALA's = alpha linolenic acid) also do this as well?

Because it seems I have less waxy sebum, but I wasn't sure if ALA's also do that, because it seems to be. Or does GLA do it more than ALA's do?

3) Can ALA's be convereted to GLA by the body? Because I've read that the body only uses the GLA's

1) anything from 50mg to 700mg depending on various factors...200mg-400mg is usually the optimum dose.

2) EFAs produce anti-inflammatory hormones which have many positive effects on the body and skin health, one of them being, as you said, reducing the viscosity of sebum.

ALA (or more accurately, the PGE3 it turns into) is more well known for its sebum reduction than GLA. Yet I doubt acne can be cured with only ALA, or without GLA.

3) ALA cannot be converted to GLA.

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Sorry I didnt read through all the pages but can evening primrose oil be used by someone on birth control...since it messes with hormones...I'm on the shot. thanks!

Ive been asked about this before, and to be honest I doubt evening primrose oil is going to be dangerous whilst taking bcp's. It would be known about. Or at least you would hope so...

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I have a couple of in depth questions:

1) I understand GLA is necessary, so how much GLA are we supposed to take?

2) I know that one of the main reasons EFA's are good is that is reduces the viscosity of sebum, which makes it help skin rather than block it, but is it only GLA's that do this? Or does fish oil (ALA's = alpha linolenic acid) also do this as well?

Because it seems I have less waxy sebum, but I wasn't sure if ALA's also do that, because it seems to be. Or does GLA do it more than ALA's do?

3) Can ALA's be convereted to GLA by the body? Because I've read that the body only uses the GLA's

1) anything from 50mg to 700mg depending on various factors...200mg-400mg is usually the optimum dose.

2) EFAs produce anti-inflammatory hormones which have many positive effects on the body and skin health, one of them being, as you said, reducing the viscosity of sebum.

ALA (or more accurately, the PGE3 it turns into) is more well known for its sebum reduction than GLA. Yet I doubt acne can be cured with only ALA, or without GLA.

3) ALA cannot be converted to GLA.

You are god send, thank you very much, that answered my question thoroughly and it makes sense!

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I keep reading this thread. It seems like the more I read, the more I get confused. Don't know how that works but it does lol.

Okay here's the deal:

The three oils I bought to take are:

Evening Primrose Oil 500 mg(2 capsules provide 1000 mgs of high quality cold-pressed epo) and

(fatty acid profile for 1 serving (2 caps): Linoleic Acid (LA) 700 mg - gamma-Linoleic Acid (GLA) 80 mg)

Borage Oil 1000 mg(1 capsule provides 1000 mgs) and (fatty acid profile for 1 serving

(1 caps): Linoleic Acid (LA) 383 mg - gamma-Linoleic Acid (GLA) 212 mg - Oleic Acid 180 mg - Palmitic Acid 107 mg -Stearic Acid 38 mg)

Flaxseed Oil 500 mg(1 capsule is one serving of 500 mgs) and (fatty acid profile for 1 serving (1 caps): alpha-Linoleic Acid (ALA) 275 mg - Linoleic Acid (LA) 70 mg - Oleic Acid 82 mg - Palmitic Acid 26 mg)

I will be taking these in combination with my daily multi-vitamin that I just bought also. ( Iodine-free )

These contain 25mg of ALA in 2 capsules, (a serving).

If I took 2 multi-vitamins a day ( a serving ) and 1 Flaxseed Oil capsule a day ( a serving ) I would be getting about 300 mg of ALA a day.

My questions are:

How much of these oils do I need to take?

Would I be better off dropping the flaxseed oil for fish oil?

I read somewhere that multivitamins donot pair well with one of these oils, is this true?

I also read somewhere else that fish oil capsules can contain some of the harmful heavy metals and minerals that the fish contain, is this true?

I read somewhere that Cod liver oil capsules taken with multivitamins can be toxic for your liver because of high amounts of Vitamins A & D?

Do I need to keep these oils ( in capsule form ) in the refridgerator or can they be kept in a dark, dry, cool cupboard?

What is the shelf life on these oils? I read somewhere that they go bad quickly, is this true?

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I really appreciate it. :D

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I just wanted to also add to my post that if I took

2 multi-vitamins a day

1 flax seed oil capsule

1 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

My daily intake would be something like:

GLA: 292 mg

ALA: 300 mg

Is this enough GLA or should I take more borage oil to get more GLA?

If I took 2 borage oil capsules instead of 1 I would end up with:

GLA: 504 mg

ALA: 300 mg

Thanks.

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Whoa, okay.. I think I'm taking way too much.

No, I know I am taking way too much.

How many mg's of GLA should I be taking, in total, per day? I thought maintenance was like.. 1500mg (Of GLA, not EPO.. So that'd be like, an insane amount of EPO), but someone said something about only an average of 400mg?? Lord..

Well, it would be great news, considering they [financially] run me into the ground by going through so many each day, and also because I always manage to get them stuck in my throat if I try to take more than three per gulp and suffer severe chest pains until they pass through into my stomach.

Also, I'm on birth control, and I haven't had an issue with it thus far.. I figure it can only help, you know?

Someone who is honestly educated in this department respond to this. I don't want someone to take an educated guess, although I appreciate your efforts to help. I'm just kind of freaked out now because I've seen 384659813645 opposing instructions given about maintenance dosages and I don't know which are true and which are B.S.

Thank you, thank you, thank you -- In advance. <3

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Whoa, okay.. I think I'm taking way too much.

No, I know I am taking way too much.

How many mg's of GLA should I be taking, in total, per day? I thought maintenance was like.. 1500mg (Of GLA, not EPO.. So that'd be like, an insane amount of EPO), but someone said something about only an average of 400mg?? Lord..

Well, it would be great news, considering they [financially] run me into the ground by going through so many each day, and also because I always manage to get them stuck in my throat if I try to take more than three per gulp and suffer severe chest pains until they pass through into my stomach.

Also, I'm on birth control, and I haven't had an issue with it thus far.. I figure it can only help, you know?

Someone who is honestly educated in this department respond to this. I don't want someone to take an educated guess, although I appreciate your efforts to help. I'm just kind of freaked out now because I've seen 384659813645 opposing instructions given about maintenance dosages and I don't know which are true and which are B.S.

Thank you, thank you, thank you -- In advance. <3

I believe fish oil may be more beneficial then epo and i would like to try to explain why below.

this chart may help you make some decisions about what to take

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EFA_to_Eicosanoids.svg

it shows you how omega 6s and omega 3s try to balance themselves.

if i were to give you any advice it would be based on my understanding of how efas work, and based on this chart.

How to interpret the chart:

the chart shows how omega 6s and omega 3s try to achieve an optimal balance, in the center of the chart there are enzymes which each of the fatty acids on either side compete for.

All of our problems with acne come from Arachidonic acid, from which inflammatory Eicosanoids are made from.

gla(epo) inhibits arachidonic acid and makes some anti-inflammatory eicosanoids(see chart), those are the main benefits to supplementing gla. and it is one of the most important and beneficial o6 fatty acids

But another way to inhibit arachidonic acid is to take FISH OIL, as you can tell from the chart EPA is a direct competitor of Arachidonic acid

After your body has enough gla, it converts it directly back into Arachidonic acid. So only supplement gla for a short period of time, but get your GLA from borage oil and not epo. epo has high levels of omega 6, i think borage oil is the better bet becasue it has more gla in relation to the omega 6s that are also in it.

so fish oil with epa will do a better job of inhibiting arachidonic acid by directly competing with it for the same enzyme, plus epa will make all the proinflammatory eicosanoids that will helps stop sebum glands.

I hope that was somewhat clear. but I dont think it gets any simpler then for me to say,

take fish oil and balance o6 to o3 at a 1:1 ratio.

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I have a couple of in depth questions:

1) I understand GLA is necessary, so how much GLA are we supposed to take?

2) I know that one of the main reasons EFA's are good is that is reduces the viscosity of sebum, which makes it help skin rather than block it, but is it only GLA's that do this? Or does fish oil (ALA's = alpha linolenic acid) also do this as well?

Because it seems I have less waxy sebum, but I wasn't sure if ALA's also do that, because it seems to be. Or does GLA do it more than ALA's do?

3) Can ALA's be convereted to GLA by the body? Because I've read that the body only uses the GLA's

1) anything from 50mg to 700mg depending on various factors...200mg-400mg is usually the optimum dose.

2) EFAs produce anti-inflammatory hormones which have many positive effects on the body and skin health, one of them being, as you said, reducing the viscosity of sebum.

ALA (or more accurately, the PGE3 it turns into) is more well known for its sebum reduction than GLA. Yet I doubt acne can be cured with only ALA, or without GLA.

3) ALA cannot be converted to GLA.

ala does not directly turn into any prostaglandins nor does it turn into any eicosanoids.

eventually yea it does, but pge3 is made from epa.

where did you here that pge3 inhibits sebum inhibition? as far as ive seen there arent any studies that have identified it.

i would like to read that study.thanks.

id have to say that you are right in assuming epa is responsible for sebum reduction since AA is responsible for ltb4 and pge2 has been proven to stimulate sebum production. but there arent any studies proving it.

heres a chart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EFA_to_Eicosanoids.svg

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ala does not directly turn into any prostaglandins nor does it turn into any eicosanoids.

eventually yea it does, but pge3 is made from epa.

ALA converts into EPA, which then converts into PGE3. Its pretty much the whole point in taking ALA....

Taking EPA 'straight' from fish oil is much more efficient.

where did you here that pge3 inhibits sebum inhibition? as far as ive seen there arent any studies that have identified it.

i would like to read that study.thanks

I will have a look for a study. Im pretty sure its the hormone PGE3 that does it and not the ALA. Perhaps indirectly as PGE3 inhibits PGE2- which causes sebum production. Also, PGE1 inhibits PGE2. So maybe PGE1's & PGE3's anti-sebum properties are indirect, i.e. they inhibit a sebum producer- PGE2.

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just in case you havent read this one

1: J Mol Med. 2006 Jan;84(1):75-87. Epub 2005 Dec 31. Links

Enzymes involved in the biosynthesis of leukotriene B4 and prostaglandin E2 are active in sebaceous glands .Alestas T, Ganceviciene R, Fimmel S, Muller-Decker K, Zouboulis CC.

Department of Dermatology, Charite Universitaetsmedizin Berlin, Campus Benjamin Franklin, Fabeckstrasse 60-62, 14195 Berlin, Germany.

The expression of enzymes involved in leukotriene and prostaglandin signalling pathways, of interleukins 6 and 8 and of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors in sebaceous glands of acne-involved facial skin was compared with those of non-involved skin of acne patients and of healthy individuals. Moreover, 5-lipoxygenase and leukotriene A(4) hydrolase were expressed at mRNA and protein levels in vivo and in SZ95 sebocytes in vitro (leukotriene A(4) hydrolase > 5-lipoxygenase), while 15-lipoxygenase-1 was only detected in cultured sebocytes. Cyclooxygenase-1 and cyclooxygenase-2 were also present. Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors were constitutively expressed. Enhanced 5-lipoxygenase, cyclooxygenase 2 and interleukin 6 expression was detected in acne-involved facial skin. Arachidonic acid stimulated leukotriene B(4) and interleukin 6 release as well as prostaglandin E(2) biosynthesis in SZ95 sebocytes, induced abundant increase in neutral lipids and down-regulated peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-alpha, but not receptor-gamma1 mRNA levels, which were the predominant peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor isotypes in SZ95 sebocytes.In conclusion, human sebocytes possess the enzyme machinery for functional leukotriene and prostaglandin pathways. A comprehensive link between inflammation and sebaceous lipid synthesis is provided.

someone in the uk- are you aware of the role of ppars play in all this?

check out the illustration of how fatty acids bind with ppars and then bind with rxr receptors to influence gene modulation. usually genes that have apoptic effects on the cell. this is what accutane does to influence acne and induce apoptosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_pr...ivated_receptor

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I just wanted to also add to my post that if I took

2 multi-vitamins a day

1 flax seed oil capsule

1 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

My daily intake would be something like:

GLA: 292 mg

ALA: 300 mg

Is this enough GLA or should I take more borage oil to get more GLA?

If I took 2 borage oil capsules instead of 1 I would end up with:

GLA: 504 mg

ALA: 300 mg

Thanks.

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I just realized that I am incorrect on the amount of ALA

I thought that my multi-vitamins contained ALA ( alpha-linoleic acid ) but actually they contain the other ALA ( alpha-lipoic acid ) Go figure!

so my actual daily intake would be 275 mg of alpha-linoleic acid ( and that's only one capsule )

So my question is how much GLA and how much ALA should I be taking?

2 multi-vitamins a day

1 flax seed oil capsule

1 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

This gives me:

GLA: 292 mg

ALA: 275 mg

2 multi-vitamins a day

1 flax seed oil capsule

2 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

This gives me:

GLA: 504 mg

ALA: 275 mg

2 multi-vitamins a day

2 flax seed oil capsule

1 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

This gives me:

GLA: 292 mg

ALA: 550 mg

2 multi-vitamins a day

2 flax seed oil capsule

2 borage oil capsule

2 evening primrose oil capsules

This gives me:

GLA: 504 mg

ALA: 550 mg

I know these are " fighting " for balance.

What kind of balance do I need?

The same amount of each? Or more of one then the other?

Thanks! :)

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For those of you take evening prim rose oil, have you noticed a decrease in oil production in any way? If so, how much, and did it completely go away? (the excess oil)

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Guest Aloetta

Hi MDP..

I've tried EPO in the past.. did wonders for me for the brief while (and my acne).. found after stopped using it I also would break out full force.. I only got it cause at work this girl mentioned she forgot to take hers.. and she had GREAT PERFECT SKIN... it's beneficial for SKIN and nails...

Anyway, I'm writing to you regarding your other issue the ENDITRO.. (and Stomach Pains) I also have had the same issue... I make HERB TEA ...and it also has helped my Cramps etc... I was at the Hospital Bleeding and only had 83% Blood left.. it was so bad..

Anyway, try some Fish-oil Caspules (omega)...

Please watch out though some folks as myself cannot intake to much of Iodine... found in some fish..

LEMONGRASS GOOD FOR "EXCESSIVE OIL SECRETIONS" or ABSORBING OIL.....

Perhaps a well mild toner such as ROSE WATER..

Better yet.. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND .....--> WITCH HAZEL... Great Toner/Cleanser

Best of Luck!!

Good Luck ~ If your Still suffering w/ your ENDRETRO... let me know.....(or MSG ME)...

I can message you regarding the HERBAL TEA remedy (4 HERBS) I religiously make inwhich also balance HORMONES.. but is primarly good for that cause... Ciao!... ;)

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