tim12

I agree with the sentiment that people shouldn't beat themselves up over having acne or if they don't have success with diet, and that people should steer clear of the 100% cures and people who rack it all up to leaky gut, candida, demodex mites, or whatever else.

 

That being said, you haven't exactly linked any evidence that absolutely establishes no link between diet and acne. It's sort of ironic that you're so sure of the etiology of acne to the point where you can't have an open discussion about it. In that sense, you're not so different from the very people you're criticizing for misleading people. People like polarized, clear cut answers, but the reality is that the body is extremely complicated. Disease is complicated.

 

Your username should be Canadianheart, since you have so many posts belittling us stoooopid 'Muricans

It's not about weighing and comparing experiences. There's always someone who has it better than you; there's always someone who has it worse than you. Everyone has likely heard something like this in their lives, but I don't know anyone who got better because someone told them "You know what, I know someone who has it worse than you is happy. So stop complaining!" or "I can do it, so you can do it too!"

I think helping people is about trying to meet and understand where people are at in their lives, and trying to help guide them in the right direction.

I think we can all agree that you should live your life as best you can despite any conditions. That is a skill that takes time. Some are inherently better at it than others.

Also, it's a bit presumptuous to say you know exactly how someone feels. It's hard (impossible imo) to feel true empathy over the Internet, and we certainly do not know the circumstances of the people here, and their lives.

TakeItToTheSkies, I don't mean to come across negatively, but I find it a bit ironic that in the nutrition section, you are one of a handful of people who understands that one individual's experience does not translate to another person's experience -- because you know that there are so many factors involved in health, many that we don't understand. How can you not see that this also applies to emotional and psychological health?

I used Dan's AHA for about a few months before my mom started using it My skin is pretty sensitive to products, but it wasn't irritating when used as directed (don't apply it on the eyes and all that ). I just sort of forgot about it after most of my PIH went away. I didn't have as many clogged pores as I do currently, so I'm hoping to get similar results again!

I'd say there's two sides to it. Yes, you can live your life with acne. But to say that it's purely a cosmetic thing isn't true. Most people have a natural care for their appearance. People judge you based on appearance. It's true though that the confident acne stricken person can still succeed socially.

Saying it's insignificant is a bit unsympathetic, and surprising to hear from people who've had acne. When I had cystic acne, I still went out with friends, but when I caught a lingering stare from a stranger, it would bother me. The occasional nasty comment was discouraging. I eventually got clear, and I do feel better about going out now that I'm relatively clear (the odd pimple here and there).

Congratulations Br93! It's an amazing, almost unreal feeling to look back at before pictures after your skin has cleared. It takes time to see results, but it's worth the persistence and dedication! It's great to hear that you're more social and happy now. Dan's AHA is pretty awesome, and is also anti-inflammatory, so it'll help your skin in a quite a few ways.

I see a lot of anecdotal I here. I'm glad it worked for you, but you can't assume what worked for you will work for others.

Deja,

  It takes real courage to share  the problems you're facing. It is a balancing act that not many people understanding; maintaining dietary restrictions that have real health implications, while maintaining a proper mindset which has large effects on you as well. Figuring out where to stop in terms of letting go and not being so strict can be such a mental battle. It's easy to over think these things, but then you also have to be careful about cross-contamination. You want to let loose, but you have restrictions on how much you can let loose, and on what. It is easy to become paranoid and fearful when we're thrown all this information, and then sifting through its own battle. I'm sure that you've got the information you need to maintain the balance you need for both your physical and mental health!

  And then you have to deal with the rude people who blame you for not getting the results they promised. I don't know if you're doing it, but please do not blame yourself. Keep a positive attitude, and things are likely to improve over time. You've already taken the most difficult step in recognizing that things have to change.


Also, I find it upsetting that Deja comes here and pours her heart into what she has shared, and people start talking about this or that diet in a fashion that completely ignores a large part of this post. Frankly, if you have a heart, I'd think those of you who posted about xyz being better or worse than 123 should edit those posts.

There are a number of other posts where you can post something like that; but this post is special, because it's one of the few and only I'be seen that integrates the duality and balance of the psychological and physical battle that happens for those of us who have genuine food sensitivities. And the psychological portion is too often ignored. So please, edit your posts, and let the message of Deja's post speak.

The reason there are not 'credible' sources about nutrition as treatment for ANYTHING because first off, almost all medical research done is in someway funded by the government; the government(FDA, USDA) has financial ties with some major food companies, i.e. The American Cattle Association, Dairy Council, etc. and every major piece of literature/news goes through the government before being released to the public. For something to be named a treatment for a disease, it must pass a placebo test or some kind of controlled study; the government does not allow a lifestyle change to suffice as a treatment so there is no 'credible' source you will ever find out there if you go by those standards because the government won't allow it.

Side note:
I don't think most people are aware that the term 'quack' and 'quack theory' were actually created by Big Pharma.  And Big Pharma is in fact an actual thing, or monopoly if you will.  They created this terminology to sway public opinion into believing that anything not practiced by the AMA is ridiculous.  The website 'quack watch' was created by Big Pharma.  And the writer for quack watch Stephen Barrett has to be one of the most corrupt humans on this earth.  He's in bed with Big Pharma and they keep him well funded to smear any and all nutritional therapies that might take away business from the pharmaceutical industry.  

Also nothing from nature (unless it's GMO'd as we're finding out now) can be patented.  It costs millions to test a product for efficacy and safety, which they won't do.  And since the FDA says it's illegal to practice with any substance not tested, you can see why nutritional therapies will never be supported by modern medicine, regardless of how effective the natural treatment is. Or at least not by Big Pharma, which is heavily funding modern medicine and the doctors practicing the standard AMA practices.  

We live in a very corrupt world, and the truth is, you are the only one looking out for you.  Drugs treat symptoms, and come with even more harmful side effects than than they do potential benefits.  Nature can and does address the underlying metabolic process behind these diseases and chronic illness, but it isn't near the money maker, and it's also competition for the drug companies.  In a world where money is so idolized by corrupt men, profits come before the desire to do good, and unfortunately, providing any and all known methods of healing regardless of money to be made...just isn't happening

On a lighter note:

I'm saying that it isn't guaranteed that results in rats translate into human results, to keep my reply short. Clearly dairy can be problematic for people, but there are also acne prone people here who tolerate dairy fine.

That being said, I don't doubt that veganism is a legitimate method. I'm just saying other methods seem to work for people too. And sometimes these successful methods for one person are not successful for the other. This is more or less anecdotal conjecture, however; so the main takeaway I have for any readers is to be skeptical and experiment.

Well first off, The China Study rats were only given a diet of 20% casein which is the protein in milk. Secondly, The China Study also has clinical research about the people in those counties, what they ate, and rate of disease over 50+ counties in China. You should really read the book before making claims about it.

I'm not going to argue anyone that hasn't read the books because the proof is in the research; I mean it's a forty year long study and every experiment he did was conclusive to the fact that animal products turned on disease and plant products turned them off.

About the faux vegan food, I myself, don't eat a lot of it. I put it in my blog so people don't feel deprived when changing their lifestyle. It's not easy to just give up all of your comfort foods cold turkey so I included them so people know there are in fact vegan options they can indulge in once in a while. It would be ignorant of anyone to assume that someone will never crave a slice of pizza again in their life or some mac&cheese; these things were hard for me so I included them to help people.

Again, I made this post to HELP people not to be attacked and I would honestly delete this post because of how much negativity is coming across. So please, if you don't agree with this, that's perfectly okay I could really care less. There's thousands of other posts and blogs on this site so you can go visit theirs if you'd like. But I've gotten an e-mail almost everyday of people thanking me for sharing this information which is why I will keep it up.

There is a lot of assumption going on in this thread. I have skimmed the China study at a library, as well as reviews. I've also seen all of the documentaries you've mentioned, and looked at the research from people in that sort of camp. You shouldn't assume what I do or do not know.

A problem with studies in humans is that you can't really control for one variable, there is always other stuff going on. Still, epidemiology is even further than controlled studies. Then there are populations that seem to contrast what Campbell and friends are selling, which is a bit of an explanation to sit down and type, and I'm sure most of the people here are familiar with these sorts of criticisms (for example, what AKL posted). One such example of a contradictory study to what the China Study found was that recent meta-analysis which more or less determined that saturated fats were not correlated with a variety of diseases that they usually are.

http://ajcn.nutritio....27725.abstract

Some say that the funders of the study create a conflict of interest, and this is potentially true. By that logic, I'd say vegan researchers researching veganism may also have a bias.

Indeed, it is okay to disagree. No one here is attacking you; rather, we are trying to be critical about the sort of information and advice that is posted here. Acne is something that people are very emotional about. There have been many posters here who have decided to follow a variety of diets, this kind included, who did not achieve the results they were promised. I understand that people say that this method works for them amount, but there are also people who it has not worked for. The same goes for a variety of diets.

Not to give you a hard time, but I think she meant the actual studies themselves, not websites talking about studies. And preferably studies done in humans in controlled conditions, not epidemiology type stuff. A lot of the China study's dairy conclusions came from studies where the rats were fed an abnormally high amount of dairy proteins too, if I'm not mistaken. I'd wager that they are even less adapted to eating dairy than we are.

I don't doubt that there are healthy populations that are vegan or vegetarian. But in much of the literature you reference, a lot more is going on than just their diet. It's a combination of factors; factors that we know play a role in health and disease. Things like sleep, stress, and exercise. Unless you have controlled conditions in a large study which results are demonstrated in a multitude of other studies (in humans of various populations [and other study conditions]), you cannot make these strong claims like "This is not good for most people. This is good for most people."

You could say that there's evidence that this lifestyle may help people, but the kinds of replacement faux foods that you are recommending is not the same type of vegan/vegetarian diet observed in your sources. And even if you do the same things, we don't know what level of adaptation those populations have.

What I'm getting at is that we have to be careful when we look at someone's diet and say "THIS is the problem." It very well could be, but it'd be better to say "according to this body (and I mean a good amount of research from various institutions) of research, it may be a good idea to try this." And if they try it and it doesn't work for them, we can't assume they are at fault.

My last log was a mess, so I've decided to create a new one--hopefully more organized than the last! I want to focus on research, autoimmunity, immunology, cell biology, gut microbiology, anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition (bioavailability, individual nutrients and their roles in the body [cofactors, enzymes, structural constituents, etc]), exercise, and all things related to health! Science in general really.

In this log, I'd like to do a handful of things.

1. Research topics with scientific scrutiny and dignity, referring to the latest research to backup ideas and and answer questions.

2. Keep track of my own health, and the results of experimentation, whilst acknowledging limitations due to multiple variables.

3. Keeping track of the variables mentioned in 2, such as sleep, stress, exercise, nutrient intake, and the like.

A bit about myself:

I have a family history of IBS and GERD, and a few family members have Hashimoto's thyroiditus. There is also a history of cystic acne. I was recently diagnosed with Psoriasis, which I've had under control for about a month or so.  At it's worst, in addition to acne, I had little rashes in various places on my body, including my face. I used to be sick all the time growing up, but I haven't really been sick the same way for the past few years--maybe a runny nose here and there. Following autoimmune protocol type diets seems to have helped my acne (I am currently clear), but I want to know why.

What I want to know:

What evidence is there? What potential factors should I consider? What kind of mechanisms could potentially be at work? Are there case studies of individuals like myself? What do the animal models (if any) indicate? Is X nutrient bioavailable from Y food? What is X nutrients role in Z process? What does the dose response curve look like for X nutrient in Z process? What is involved in Z process?

What I am currently doing:

Avoiding:

• most grains
• legumes
• most dairy
• eggs
• soy
• nightshades
• excess sugar
• oranges
• latex fruits
• probably other stuff I can't think of

Doing:

• eating grass fed, pastured beef
• wild seafood, especially sockeye salmon, mussels, and oysters
• offal
• fermented foods, nutrient dense foods, and new foods in general
• leafy greens
• exercising often
• sleeping well
• socializing
• minimizing stress
• minimizing electronic use before bed

Limitations:

These are my thoughts, musings, and compilations more than anything else. These are things I've observed in myself, and I don't necessarily hold that they are correct. There are many factors that go into health. Nevertheless, It's a place to organize some of the things that I come across.

I generally like to keep my statements in line of with this mantra; "more research is needed." I believe one of the best things you can say is "I don't know." After recognizing that, you can do research to learn about what you do not know (I know, not exactly groundbreaking procedures ).


Final Thoughts:

Please feel free to ask me any questions you have, and I'll do my best to answer them! I'll expand on some of the things I am doing, as well as provide scientific data, in future posts. It's almost finals time for me, so it may be a few weeks before I do all that (or my inner procrastinator may assume direct control, and I may end up writing a novel ).

It is also very scientific which I love because you can't refute/argue science.

This is very contrary to what the scientific method actually is. A good scientist is willing to have their theories and hypotheseses challenged. Methodology is scrutinized all the time (or at least ideally, and by those with scientific dignity). I'd advise anyone looking at any diet to scrutinize it as much as possible, look up criticisms, and decide for themselves. Run far away from anyone evangelizing any method as the Holy Grail. With the individual differences in biochemistry (though I would argue on the whole we are more similar than we are different), it's really misleading to assume that any method, including conceivable modifications of that method, will fit X person. This includes vegan, paleo, GAPS, SCD, and everything else.

It's irresponsible to assume that because X person failed on Y diet, the person did something wrong. Maybe being vegan really is not beneficial for them. Maybe being paleo really is not beneficial for them. You can't presume to know their situation and why things didn't work for them, unless you're some supernatural being who knows everything beyond what science does (I'm wagering that none of us are). We can't know every single factor that is at work in a person.

Sex and TV dinners. These are the best kind of threads!

But seriously, I do agree that the science is not fully developed and clear when it comes to treating, as well as understanding, acne, and the human body in general. We're always learning new things; 10 years from now, we'll look back on the sources we cited as underdeveloped, and perhaps outright wrong.

Still, there's good enough scientific evidence that says it's more than just bacteria on our skin. A variety of factors have been reported to affect certain peoples acne. There are correlations everywhere. There a a variety if complex interrelated mechanisms constantly at work.

Most of us who tried diet/lifestyle changes were out our wits end, and probably figured something along the lines of this; "what have I got to lose?"

That being said, there have been posters who said that diet/lifestyle changes didn't work for them. There's a couple things we should all be aware of though. First, there are a variety of factors constantly that contribute to our health, and sometimes we can be pretty bad at blaming X, or forgetting Y also occurred as well (like AKLs example of drinking and painkillers). Even if you were eating perfectly, but were stressed and sleeping poorly, then you might not be getting ideal results.

There are plenty treatments and approaches to clearing one's skin. One method working doesn't necessarily invalidate another. Another method not working for one person doesn't necessarily invalidate that method for other people. Also, just because something worked, it doesn't mean that the person has targeted the right variable(s).

Just some things to keep in mind.

Really cool Deja! I'm glad it's working so well for you. Have you tried eating some of the grains like probiotic capsules? I've read of people doing that along with the kefir drink, sort of like a super delivery system. What recipe do you use for the kimchi? It's so awesome to see all the fermented foods on the counter! I feel the same way about my fermented foods! When you make things yourself, I think there's a bigger attachment and appreciation of those foods throughout the family/people who consume it.

WhiteFox,

That graphic is quite an eye opener. I knew I didn't have a good diet/lifestyle, but only recently have I looked back on how I grew up - which made me realize that things were probably worse than I initially thought. Thankfully I've been eating good for quite some time, including probiotic foods, but nothing like I have been seen reading your thread, which made me much more aware of fermented foods, gut flora, and all that good stuff.

I, similar to Deja and probably others, ate a SAD of fast food and hardly any vegetables besides corn and potatos. Even fruits were pretty rare for me. I drank a lot of milk, back when rbst and all that stuff was allowed. I was routinely on antibiotics, and routinely sick. I had severe allergies for most of my life. I was told to take NSAIDS daily by my doctor for neck/back pain I had. Lots of stress, and lots of purell hand sanitizer.

Thankfully, most of those symptoms went aware or greatly reduced when I started following a paleo-inspired diet, but I was still prone to little breakouts here and there, and initially I was very sensitive to foods that broke me out. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out over time, sticking to high amounts of probiotics and prebiotics, fermented foods, and quality things like grass fed beef/butter/marrow etc.


Updates:

I found a local farmer that sells grass fed pastured raw goat milk! I'm going to go out to their farm to see more beyond the pictures. If it's up to par, I'll kefir it. It's cheaper than buying the goat kefir from the store. I'm also going to ask about colostrum once I'm a regular customer of theirs. it's $10 for 64 ounces, so about 3 bucks more than raw cow's milk.

I ordered some water kefir grains, super excited to try that out! I also bought some blackstrip molasses to use for the water kefir. It's pretty mineral dense, so I'm glad to trade most of the sugar for probiotics + mineral powerhouse! woop woop!