27 replies to this topic

[flipside]

just started reading up on desquamation and found some interesting info...

In desquamation, corneodesmosomes are degraded by water-dependent hydrolytic agents. When there is low moisture in the SC, these enzymes do not work efficiently. Corneocytes accumulate on the skin surface producing the signs of dry skin, e.g., when the moisture content is less than 10%, and when there is loss of continuity of the SC.

http://www.medscape....le/505759_print

some more info here:

http://www.skininc.c...es/1707276.html

[SuzanneHopes]

Thank you ..interesting read..I wish I was smart enough to understand it.

[flipside]

i think i might try some kiwi facials.

in that second webpage there is info on proteases, and how they can help with the desquamation process.

kiwis contain the protease actinidin, and they're also high in vitamin C which cant hurt.

other plant proteases include bromelain (pineapple) and papain (papayas).

[flipside]

some reading on enzymes in skincare:

http://www.dayspamag...803_enzymes.pdf

(only the first page has the bright green background)

there's mention of certain protease used to digest TNF-alpha, and leukotriene 1, which are involved in inflammation in the skin.

[flipside]

Broad specificity alkaline proteases efficiently reduce the visual scaling associated with soap-induced xerosis.

Arch Dermatol Res. 2001 Nov;293(10):500-7

El-Kadi KN, Rawlings AV, Feinberg C, Watkinson A, Nunn CC, Battaglia A, Chandar P, Richardson N, Pocalyko DJ.

Unilever Research US, Edgewater, NJ 07020, USA.

In xerotic skin, the proteolysis of desmosomes is reduced leading to the accumulation of corneocytes on the surface of the skin. The effect of proteases applied topically to soap-induced xerotic skin was evaluated using a five-point visual scale. The visual scaling associated with soap-induced xerosis could be ameliorated by the topical application of exogenous protease. Bovine pancreatic chymotrypsin, papain, and a bacterial protease from Bacillus licheniformis were all capable of facilitating the reduction in visual scaling in a short time. Alcalase and Optimase, both broad specificity alkaline bacterial proteases, were the most weight-efficient at delivering this clinical effect. The reduction in scaling could be achieved either by occluded application of an aqueous enzyme solution or by a two-step unoccluded application first of an aqueous enzyme solution followed by a commercial moisturizer. Morphological and immunological analysis of bacterial enzyme-treated skin revealed that topically applied protease specifically induced the degradation of the desmosomes thereby promoting desquamation. These results indicate that topical application of protease can significantly and rapidly reduce the visual scaling associated with soap-induced xerosis by promoting desmosome degradation within the corneocyte clumps.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 11820726 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[LionQueen]

Flipside ... you post a lot of great info ... but how about the occasional quick summary in plain English? It would be a real public service. I can eventually make it through the scientific journal-ese, but sometimes it just makes my teeth hurt.

Thanks ...

Q

[flipside]

Flipside ... you post a lot of great info ... but how about the occasional quick summary in plain English? It would be a real public service. I can eventually make it through the scientific journal-ese, but sometimes it just makes my teeth hurt.

Thanks ...

Q

lol.... sorry, i sometimes post here for my own reference (instead of saving to favorites), and for anyone who's interested.

everybody's acne is different so i think we all need to do some homework in order to cure ourselves.

from the info i posted, i learned a little about how skin cells are attatched to eachother in the stratum corneum, and how exfoliating with proteases (enzymes that cleave proteins) might help prevent clogged pores.

i know microcomedones are supposed to start deep in the pore, but i think if the skin surface isnt shedding correctly, then pores can get clogged from the surface too.

there are proteases already present in the skin that help desquamate, but if your skin is dry or not at the right pH, the enzymes wont work suffiently and your stratum corneum will build up and IMO clog your pores.

i plan to try doing a nightly facial/cleansing with pureed kiwi and strawberry to help break apart the structures holding cells together in the SC. kiwi contains the protease actividin.

i might follow this with a homemade cream consisting of shea butter, carrot seed oil, hemp oil, neem oil, lecithin, aloe juice, green tea extract, olive leaf extract, tea tree oil, and manuka oil.

i have dry skin and inflammatory acne, with clogged pores all over my nose and surrounding areas.

hmmmmm, maybe i should start one of them acne journals, or logs, or whatever they're called...

this link that i posted seemed to have lots of good info:

http://www.skininc.c...es/1707276.html

[LionQueen]

THANK YOU, that was very helpful and interesting ... if you start a log, let us know!

Q

[LabGirl81]

just started reading up on desquamation and found some interesting info...

In desquamation, corneodesmosomes are degraded by water-dependent hydrolytic agents. When there is low moisture in the SC, these enzymes do not work efficiently. Corneocytes accumulate on the skin surface producing the signs of dry skin, e.g., when the moisture content is less than 10%, and when there is loss of continuity of the SC.

Hey, did you ever hear that all acne sufferers also suffer from an impaired water barrier function??

Impaired water barrier function in acne vulgaris
Ayako Yamamoto1 , Kaoruko Takenouchi1 and Masaaki Ito1

(1) Department of Dermatology, Niigata University School of Medicine, 951 Niigata, Japan

Received: 13 December 1993

Abstract In acne vulgaris, abnormal follicular keratinization is important for comedo formation, yet the precise mechanisms of comedogenesis are not known. The present study examined the interrelationship between sebum secretion rate (SSR), lipid content and water barrier function (WBF) of the stratum corneum (SC) in 36 acne patients and 29 control subjects. All major SC lipid classes were separated and qantified by thin-layer chromatography/photodensitometry. WBF was evaluated by measuring transepidermal water loss (TEWL), and the hygroscopic properties and water-holding capacity of the SC. The SSR over a period of 3 h was significantly higher in patients with moderate acne than in control subjects, but no significant difference was noticed between patients with mild acne and control subjects. Significant differences between patients with both moderate and mild acne and control subjects were noted in the amount of sphingolipids (ceramides and free sphingosine), but not for any other lipid classes. Furthermore in acne patients, lower amounts of sphingolipids were observed corresponding with a diminished WBF. These results suggest that an impaired WBF caused by decreased amounts of ceramides may be responsible for comedo formation, since barrier dysfunction is accompanied by hyperkeratosis of the follicular epithelium.

[LionQueen]

Hey, did you ever hear that all acne sufferers also suffer from an impaired water barrier function??

Impaired water barrier function in acne vulgaris
Ayako Yamamoto1 , Kaoruko Takenouchi1 and Masaaki Ito1

(1) Department of Dermatology, Niigata University School of Medicine, 951 Niigata, Japan

Received: 13 December 1993

... These results suggest that an impaired WBF caused by decreased amounts of ceramides may be responsible for comedo formation, since barrier dysfunction is accompanied by hyperkeratosis of the follicular epithelium.

LabGirl,

Basically, this abstract is saying that if your skin's water barrier is not functioning properly, the cells in your follicles start shedding like crazy and clogging your pores?

Don't you think that theory jives with quite a few of the anecdotes we've been seeing on the boards, where people talk about dehydrating their skin through harsh products and overwashing, and making their acne worse?

Also, this seems like another reason why EFAs and hyaluronic acid are good supplements for acne sufferers?

Please comment, I'm really interested in this one ... thank you!!!

Q

P.S. Um, what are ceramides?

[LabGirl81]

Hey, did you ever hear that all acne sufferers also suffer from an impaired water barrier function??

Impaired water barrier function in acne vulgaris
Ayako Yamamoto1 , Kaoruko Takenouchi1 and Masaaki Ito1

(1) Department of Dermatology, Niigata University School of Medicine, 951 Niigata, Japan

Received: 13 December 1993

... These results suggest that an impaired WBF caused by decreased amounts of ceramides may be responsible for comedo formation, since barrier dysfunction is accompanied by hyperkeratosis of the follicular epithelium.

LabGirl,

Basically, this abstract is saying that if your skin's water barrier is not functioning properly, the cells in your follicles start shedding like crazy and clogging your pores?

Yup that seems to be the case, according to this study anyway......

Don't you think that theory jives with quite a few of the anecdotes we've been seeing on the boards, where people talk about dehydrating their skin through harsh products and overwashing, and making their acne worse?

It could. The trick is to wash and use anti-acne topicals without damaging your skin's lipid barrier....this is tricky, but can be accomplished if you know a little about the function of the epidermis and have some respect for your protective epidermal lipids and the sphingolipids (like ceramides) that make up the skin's water barrier....

I think that study was done on acne patients who were not using any anti-acne regimen during the study, so that the factor of harsh topicals wouldn't play into the results I'm sure 95% of the people on this board would find that they have an impaired water barrier, not only due to the preexisting internal discord that causes microcomedo formation, but also because of their anti-acne regimens.

I do not think a damaged water barrier alone is responsible for the develpoment of acne (there are also other factors). But it is something we all seem to have in common. If this alone was the primary cause of acne every member of the geriatric population would all suffer from it (a damaged water barrier is also associated with aging). It seems like there is something going wrong somewhare in of proliferation of the keratinocytes, a cycle that starts with basal cells and ends with the desquamation of the coreocytes.

Another thing that all acne sufferers seem to have in common is a delocalization of linoleic acid (an EFA) in the epidermis, even though they may not have a linoleic acid formation in their diets. This is most likely the cause of this impaired water barrier function of the epidermis in acne sufferers This linoleic acid eficiency is not usually seen in other conditions resulting from a damaged water barrier, such as classic clinical xerosis (dry skin), psoriasis and eczema.

Also, this seems like another reason why EFAs and hyaluronic acid are good supplements for acne sufferers?

Please comment, I'm really interested in this one ... thank you!!!

Q

P.S. Um, what are ceramides?

Hyaluronic acid is one of the skin's water soluble natural moisturizing factors (like Sodium PCA and Glycosaminoglycans). Sodium hyaluronate is the one of the key water maintaining substances in human skin. It's not actually essential to our diets (meaning the body can synthesize it). I'm not sure what supplimenting it will do, but as far as topical application goes they are huge water soluble molecules, that do not easily penetrate the lipid barrier of the skin. To apply them topically you'd need to disturb the barrier (using something like alcohol or a strong surfactant) to get them to penetrate. It's possible that a supplement would help....

I doubt this alone can cure acne, but it supplementing EFA's really helps skin be able to restore (or half ass restore, for us acne sufferers) it's lipid barrier...Especially Linoleic acid (but you don't want to get too much without getting enough alpha-linolenic acid, since they should be at a 2:1 ratio). This makes a huge difference in my skin's toleracne to surfactants. I can wash my hands 15 times a day, and not have to worry too much about them becoming dry (even in the winter). My face is more tolerant too....but I doubt that this alone would clear up my skin, without my topicals...actually it's funny you mentioned EFA's and ceramides in the same question....the EFA linoleic acid is very important to the function of creamides, which make up the skin's lipid barrier....


Ceramides, which are a class of sphingolipids, are the major lipid constituent of lamellar sheets that lie between the spaces between the cells of the stratum corneum. These lamellar sheets form the barrier function of the epidermis. These are the protective epidermal lipids that I always mention.
Linoleic acid is important because it seems to reinforce the skin's lipid barrier which is composed of these sphingolipids....

Sphingolipids are actually amphipathic lipids. They have a head that likes water and tails that like oil. The tails of these sphingolipids are saturated, not like the tails of phospholipids that make up cell membranes, which are unsaturated. These saturated fatty acids tails of the ceramides can pack closely together, and can form a bilayer that creates a barrier to water loss, that other amphipathic lipids with unsaturated tails (like phospholipids) cannot. Linoleic acid (an unsaturated fatty acid) is esterfied to the omega-hydroxyl groups on the epidermal ceramides. There has been research that suggests that other unsaturated fatty acids (like oleic acid for example), can be substituted for linoleic acid here, but it is only linoleic acid that is properly stereochemically confuigured to be hydroxylated by a certain lipoxygenase, in order to be able to produce compunds that activate can enzymes that regulate the cornification process....this is why it's so important to proper barrier function......and for some reason or another this process is all skrewed up for us acne sufferers..........

Sorry for rambling......

[flipside]

insightful indeed... thanks for the info LabGirl!

Hey, did you ever hear that all acne sufferers also suffer from an impaired water barrier function??

yeah, i think ive read that before.

There has been research that suggests that other unsaturated fatty acids (like oleic acid for example), can be substituted for linoleic acid here, but it is only linoleic acid that is properly stereochemically confuigured to be hydroxylated by a certain lipoxygenase, in order to be able to produce compunds that activate can enzymes that regulate the cornification process....this is why it's so important to proper barrier function......and for some reason or another this process is all skrewed up for us acne sufferers

good to know.

not sure if i've posted this yet:

Digital image analysis of the effect of topically applied linoleic acid on acne microcomedones.

Clin Exp Dermatol. 1998 Mar;23(2):56-8

Letawe C, Boone M, Pierard GE.

Department of Dermatopathology, University of Liege, Belgium.

A major pathogenic factor of acne is the disturbed keratinization of the follicular infundibulum. It has been hypothesized that a relative decrease in linoleic acid in the sebum could be responsible, in part, for this. The aim of the present study was objectively to evaluate the effects of topically applied linoleic acid on the size of microcomedones in patients with mild acne. The design was a double-blind placebo-controlled randomized cross-over study. Evaluations were performed by digital image analysis of cyanoacrylate follicular biopsies. There was a significant effect of topically applied linoleic acid on the size of follicular casts and microcomedones, an almost 25% reduction in their overall size being achieved over a 1-month treatment period. In contrast, no change was found at placebo-treated sites. It is concluded that topical linoleic acid might play a role as a comedolytic agent in acne-prone patients.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9692305 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

imagine that... an OIL being a COMEDOLYTIC AGENT!!!

THANK YOU, that was very helpful and interesting ... if you start a log, let us know!

Q

http://www.acne.org/...showtopic=84220

[LabGirl81]

insightful indeed... thanks for the info LabGirl!

Hey, did you ever hear that all acne sufferers also suffer from an impaired water barrier function??

yeah, i think ive read that before.

There has been research that suggests that other unsaturated fatty acids (like oleic acid for example), can be substituted for linoleic acid here, but it is only linoleic acid that is properly stereochemically confuigured to be hydroxylated by a certain lipoxygenase, in order to be able to produce compunds that activate can enzymes that regulate the cornification process....this is why it's so important to proper barrier function......and for some reason or another this process is all skrewed up for us acne sufferers

good to know.

not sure if i've posted this yet:

Digital image analysis of the effect of topically applied linoleic acid on acne microcomedones.

Clin Exp Dermatol. 1998 Mar;23(2):56-8

Letawe C, Boone M, Pierard GE.

Department of Dermatopathology, University of Liege, Belgium.

A major pathogenic factor of acne is the disturbed keratinization of the follicular infundibulum. It has been hypothesized that a relative decrease in linoleic acid in the sebum could be responsible, in part, for this. The aim of the present study was objectively to evaluate the effects of topically applied linoleic acid on the size of microcomedones in patients with mild acne. The design was a double-blind placebo-controlled randomized cross-over study. Evaluations were performed by digital image analysis of cyanoacrylate follicular biopsies. There was a significant effect of topically applied linoleic acid on the size of follicular casts and microcomedones, an almost 25% reduction in their overall size being achieved over a 1-month treatment period. In contrast, no change was found at placebo-treated sites. It is concluded that topical linoleic acid might play a role as a comedolytic agent in acne-prone patients.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9692305 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

imagine that... an OIL being a COMEDOLYTIC AGENT!!!

THANK YOU, that was very helpful and interesting ... if you start a log, let us know!

Q

http://www.acne.org/...showtopic=84220

It's not an oil, per se....it's a free fatty acid...

I don't know if you've posted it before, but I have seen it somewhere. In acneic skin, is it the sebum that is deficient in linoleic acid or is it the epidermal lipids??? I've seen other studies showing that it is the sebum that is deficient in linoleic acid (usually seen with a higher level of oleic acid), but I've also seen that the lipids that make up the skin's lipid barrier (ceramides and other sphingolipids) have a delocalization of linoleic acid too (these lipids aren't synthesized by the sebocytes like the sebaceous lipids are)....kinda confusing....

I also find it interesting that it took a month too see a reduction in the size of the microcomedoes......this is the amount of time it usually takes for basal cells to become keratinized and incorporated into the stratum corenum, and finally desquamate. So I don't think that the linoleic acid is acting as a kerolytic agent (the way something like an AHA or BHA would), but it actually seems to regulate the proliferation and desqumation of keratinocytes.....

Do you have the full study?

[LionQueen]

What I'm getting from this is that linoleic acid is potentially helpful to acne sufferers both topically and as a supplement ... is that right?

I am reading the label on my EFA supplement right now ... looks like it's found in both the borage & flaxseed oils. Anyone know of other dietary sources?

Thanks!

Q

[LabGirl81]

What I'm getting from this is that linoleic acid is potentially helpful to acne sufferers both topically and as a supplement ... is that right?

I am reading the label on my EFA supplement right now ... looks like it's found in both the borage & flaxseed oils. Anyone know of other dietary sources?

Thanks!

Q

There are lots of dietary sources. But you need to keep in mind that the essential fatty acids should be kept in a balance of Omega-3's (like alpha-linolenic acid) and Omega-6's (like linoleic acid). Ideally this ratio should be about 1:2 or even 1:1, but in America our diets usually contain these fatty acids in a ration of about 10:1 (which is actually way higher in Omega-6's than in Omega-3's). I'm going to try to avoid sounding like a total health nut here, but the Standard American Diet is usually deficent in Omega-3's and not so much in Omega-6's or Omega-9's (like oleic acid, wich isn't really essential, since we can actually syntheize it to a certain degree).

Good sources of linoleic acid are corn, safflower, sunflower and soybean oils, wheat germ oil, borage oil, black current oil and evening primrose oil. But you have to be careful of buying these oils in a supermarket. Thes oils are highly unsaturated and the way that they are pressed and processed often damages them before they even hit the shelves at the stores....

Omega-3's include alpha-linolenic acid, DHA (docasahexaenoic acid) and EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) the last two are usually found in seafoood (like cold water fish)...the first one usually comes from plant sources.
Good sources are sources are salmon, herring, lake trout, anchovies, sardines (yum.). In plants the highest levels of Omega-3's are found in walnuts, flax, and rapeseed (canola). But watch out for the canola oil you get at the grocery store (it's usually been heated in the pressing and processing, so it's usually damaged).

Many cooking or salad oils actually contain both Omega 6's and Omega-3's and they are usually found in ratio's that are unique to the plant source of the oil (omega-6:omega-3)....

corn oil 60:1
soybean oil 8:1
extra virgin olive oil 8:1 (this also has a lot of Omega-9 too)
canola oil 2:1
flaxseed 1:3


Excess consumption of Omega-6's (linoleic acid) isn't a good thing, unless you also increase your intake of Omega-3's too....Also, if you get too much Omega-9's it can interfear with the metabolism of the Omega-3's and Omega-6's, maybe this could explain the substitution of oleic acid esterfied at the w-hydroxyl group on the ceramides instead of the linoleic acid that leads to a damaged lipid barrier and abnormal keratinization and desquamation of skin cells.....hmmmm....

Topical application of these oils seems to have an effect on the barrier function or the skin. Topical application of oleic acid on rat skin (It think it was rat skin) led to abnormal keratinization and desquamation of corneocytes that resulted in scaling and flaking of the skin....Interestingly enough, according to another study, topical application of linoleic acid seems to have the opposite effect, in that it actually reduced the formation of microcomedoes. Both studies have been posted on this board before...

Most often people who have acne don't actually have a nutritional deficiency in linoleic acid, but rather it becomes delocalized in the epidermis for some reason or another...

[flipside]

In acneic skin, is it the sebum that is deficient in linoleic acid or is it the epidermal lipids???

I'm not sure but I think if one is deficient, the other will likely be deficient too.

Do you have the full study?

yeah, I can send you the PDF if you like. i havent read it yet. you can pm me with your email if you want me to send it to you.

Anyone know of other dietary sources?

hemp seeds/hemp oil,
pumpkin seeds/pumpkin seed oil.

nutiva hemp bars contain hemp seeds and pumpkin seeds. 2 bucks a pop though... i plan on making my own hemp bars with the same ingredients: (sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, hemp hearts, plus honey to glue it all together).

[LionQueen]

There was a significant effect of topically applied linoleic acid on the size of follicular casts and microcomedones, an almost 25% reduction in their overall size being achieved over a 1-month treatment period. In contrast, no change was found at placebo-treated sites. It is concluded that topical linoleic acid might play a role as a comedolytic agent in acne-prone patients.

Well, I guess this explains why olive oil is the hot new ingredient in skincare products. It may also partially explain why the Vitamin Cure topical retinyl palmitate works for people: it's in a solution of olive and safflower oils ...

[bryan]

Well, I guess this explains why olive oil is the hot new ingredient in skincare products.

Not really, Q. Olive oil is only about 10% linoleic acid, and has FAR more oleic acid, which as LabGirl suggested recently may have detrimental properties for acne.

But an even more important consideration is that the fatty acids in olive oil (and other natural oils, for that matter) are not in their FREE form like what was used in that study; they are almost entirely in the form of various triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides. There are generally only trace quantities of free fatty acids in most natural oils, like on the order of maybe 1% - 2% or so.

Bryan

[LabGirl81]

Well, I guess this explains why olive oil is the hot new ingredient in skincare products.

Not really, Q. Olive oil is only about 10% linoleic acid, and has FAR more oleic acid, which as LabGirl suggested recently may have detrimental properties for acne.

But an even more important consideration is that the fatty acids in olive oil (and other natural oils, for that matter) are not in their FREE form like what was used in that study; they are almost entirely in the form of various triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides. There are generally only trace quantities of free fatty acids in most natural oils, like on the order of maybe 1% - 2% or so.

Bryan

Very true....actually you really only get the benefit of these poly undaturated fatty acids in the oils if you take them internally . The skin has very little of the enzymes that break down these triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides and release the free fatty acids (the bacteria on the skin can actually break down the oils). This is the same reason the retinyl palmitate and tocopheryl acetate (both monoesters of fat soluble vitamins) are usually not metabolized into their active forms in the skin. These fatty esters can actually penetrate the epidermis and dermis and enter he blood stream where they are metabiloized as fats by the liver.

[LionQueen]

Well, I guess this explains why olive oil is the hot new ingredient in skincare products.

Not really, Q. Olive oil is only about 10% linoleic acid, and has FAR more oleic acid, which as LabGirl suggested recently may have detrimental properties for acne.

But an even more important consideration is that the fatty acids in olive oil (and other natural oils, for that matter) are not in their FREE form like what was used in that study; they are almost entirely in the form of various triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides. There are generally only trace quantities of free fatty acids in most natural oils, like on the order of maybe 1% - 2% or so.

Bryan

Really?

*puts down the bottle of extra virgin olive oil, backs quietly out of the pantry*