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"The Last Acne Solution"--Leo Kiesen


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#1 crikit

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Posted 26 March 2005 - 11:14 PM

Does anyone have a copy of this ebook they would be willing to email me? I really want to read it but I'm a teacher and I'm flat broke. I've had acne for 14 years and none of the topical stuff I've tried works--I'm desperate read about how to clear up my acne using alternative methods. If anyone can help I'd REALLY REALLY appreciate it!


#2 Blo0dCrIeSZ

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Posted 26 March 2005 - 11:25 PM

I can tell you, from other people who commented about that book. That it is very expensive to follow what he says. Buying a lot of cleansers, and vitamins and doing enemas. PM me sometime and I can talk to you about a cheaper way to go. You can also PM someone name minnym0use, she knows more than I do. It is through diet. And is cheaper then what you are eating now probably.

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#3 dantecubit

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 01:47 AM

It was posted at some point. I tried reading it and it was really bad, and long-- about 300 pages on my computer. A lot was obviously plagiarized. Basically, he had you go into the countryside and buy goat's milk to make kefir. Also, taking coconut oil and doing Hulda-Clarke-style liver cleanses. Can somebody post the link? We should really put this guy out of business.
Plaquoid-mucous cleansing-type junk, liver flushing, colloidal silver, coral calcium... these are definitely NOT part of my regimen

#4 Antony

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:35 AM

I bought this e-book last August, humoured it and read it cover to cover, all 300+ pages. I even did my very best to follow and implement the program as well as I could for several months. It has some very interesting and valuable ideas that if taken piece-meal will likely yield excellent benefits especially for mild-to-moderate acne sufferers. But this guy is a fanatic and hardcore beyond belief. Simpy put, the program as a whole is totally unrealistic and impractical for even the most desperate and dedicated of acne-sufferers.

The premise of the program is that every previous attempt by any self-proclaimed acne cure has rested on only one "piece of the acne puzzle," whether dealing with the stage of bacterial infection within the pore via antibiotics, with the stage of overproductive oil glands via Accutane, with the stage of excess skin cell shedding within the pore via topical exfoliators and cleansers, with the stage of hormonal imbalance via birth control pills, or with the stage of improper elimination plus congestion and toxification of the liver and body via an improved, anti-inflammatory, low-sugar, alkalizing, nutrient-dense diet.

Leo Kiesen argues that a truly holistic and permanent resolution of acne must address all the stages of acne formation altogether. He outlines, albeit in an almost incomprehensibly disorganized manner, how to go about doing that.

He insists that you'll only see results if you do everything he tells you to. Problem is, doing only 1/10th of his program would involve such a complete and total overhaul of your entire life that you LITERALLY would (a) never be able to eat 99% of normal food in the world; (b) spend your ENTIRE day constantly taking dozens and dozens of expensive vitamin, mineral and herbal supplements; © become a complete hermit and monk spending all your time obsessively detoxing, sleeping from 10PM to 6AM every night, performing nightly enemas, checking for parasites and blood impurities every week, making all your own meals with homegrown, raw, organic, macrobiotic, vegan sprouts and seeds, and generally having such a joylessly controlled lifestyle as to have a far lower quality of life and more neurotic existence than you ever did even with severe acne.

His central premise is that it all comes down to the liver. This is where I most sharply disagreed with his program in theory but was willing to do my best to give it a chance in practice. You see, Kiesen argues that the difference between someone who has acne and someone who does not all comes down to the capacity of a person's liver to deactivate and eliminate used and excess hormones from their system. Now, the liver is indeed the body's primary detoxifying organ and arguably the single most important organ for health in general, including the vital function of handling hormonal balances which when off-kilter can result in elevated androgen levels (male sex hormones, in both males and females) that may overstimulate the oil glands, resulting in excess oil production and thus acne. Kiesen says that when you get acne despite eating well, cleansing properly and generally taking care of your health while your friends eat like pigs, don't use any products and treat their bodies like crap but still have perfect skin, it's all because they have stronger livers than you do. Clinically speaking, this is steaming horseshit.

Exhaustive clinical studies attempting to isolate the variables at play in causing acne have dealt directly with not only the factor of liver function but also elevated androgen levels. Not only do liver function tests required before courses of Accutane show unequivocally no difference in liver function between people suffer who suffer severe and mild acne as well as showing in general clinical studies no difference between individuals who suffer severe acne and none at all, but exhaustive research further disproves any significant CAUSAL link between elevated androgen levels and acne. Acne-sufferers tend to have elevated androgen levels but many people with elevated androgen levels never exhibit acne. Why is this?

Well, teenagers, for example, tend to get acne because that is the period of our lives when we experience the greatest elevation of androgen levels as our bodies undergo sexual maturation, but two teenagers undergoing this maturation at equally rapid rates with identical androgen levels and liver capacities may have severe acne in one and none in the other. Why is this? Because modern SCIENCE has determined that individuals with acne have oversensitive oil gland receptors (a genetically determined phenotype compounded by certain furthermore genetic skin types), and these oversensitive receptors are thus overstimulated by even slightly elevated androgen levels. Kiesen actually sheepishly admits this in ONE quick, passing SENTENCE out of THREE HUNDRED PAGES telling you to take every goddam vitamin on the planet and to never buy anything from a supermarket ever again.

Basically, Leo Kiesen's The Last Acne Solution is the acne-treatment equivalent of the Bible. I don't mean to offend anyone religious here, but I think it's a fair analogy. Like the Bible, there are some very good ideas that greatly illuminate our understanding of our condition (in Kiesen's case about our skin condition rather than the human condition), and some teachings that can form very viable and effective components of a praticable way of dealing with acne.

Like the Bible, if you read through it and reflect on and do your best to apply certain lessons, your life will be greatly enriched; but also like the Bible, if you believe that EVERYTHING in it is LITERALLY true and insist on living in every way by every one of its teachings, and this includes the Old Testament condoning of owning slaves, stoning gays and selling daughters to say nothing of the world being created in 7 days, then you become the acne equivalent of the most extreme fundamentalist Christians, the kind who don't let their kids watch Jurassic Park because dinosaurs are a conspiracy created by Satan to corrupt the true Christian teaching that only a few thousand years ago we were living in the Garden of Eden.

Leo Kiesen is way way way WAY WAY WAAAAY out there, a sort of extreme cult guru on the very outer fringe of the religions of acne treatments. If acne treatments are like religious beliefs for acne-sufferers, this guy is a cross between Hare Krishna, Jehova's Witness, Scientology and the suicide-pact Heavens Gate cult.

In fairness, he has probably done more than any individual human being on the planet to deal with his own acne. If you DO buy his e-book, you will easily believe this. Whether even a fraction of what he has done and insists you too must do is remotely do-able by anyone with a life beyond obsessing over their acne is another matter entirely.

If you have the money, you may benefit from buying the e-book and using it as a reference, high-lighting and implementing specific elements. However, no human being could possibly take on the entire program. This really would involve setting aside at least an entire year of doing absolutely nothing else, in addition to alienating yourself entirely from friends, family and modern society at large, and spending untold sums of money on the various hundreds of supplements, overpriced organic foods and weekly trips to the spa for colonic irrigations alongside Madonna and Liv Tyler.

If you're desperate enough to actually make it past the first chapter (if you can call it that, seeing as the book has the layout of a crossword puzzle), you'd might as well go on Accutane.

#5 bexi

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 09:30 AM

Antony, you sound like you really know what you're talking about, good thing with so much misinformation out there...So what is your opinion on liver flushes then, do you think they have any effect at all? I am pretty much on all the supplements you already mentioned in another thread, plus a few others (alpha lipoic acid,milk thistle and MSM I can really recommend also), but was considering doing a gentle liver flush as well - just olive oil and grapefruit juice, (no Epsom salts, which just sound too revolting!).
Keep up the good work posting comprehensive, informative and reasoned replies, at this rate we will all be managing our own health as lay-practitioners rather than having to rely so heavily on the wisdom (or not as the case so often seems to be!) of the medical community eusa_clap.gif

#6 Antony

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 10:10 AM

Bexi,

Thank you and yes you're right about the difficulty of searching and sifting through all the misinformation-- it's rather like panning for gold in the sewer.

I personally have tried several variations on the controversial liver flush. I believe that they are effective but not in the way and for the reasons that most of its proponents would have you believe. I have done a 1-week all raw fruit, veggie and nut detox with an emphasis on consuming countless apples, apple juice and water, with nightly enemas and the classic olive oil / lemon juice concoction (with the variation you mentioned of grapefruit juice). The epsom salts are effective in the enema and do not need to be taken orally; enema variations include the coffee enema, yogurt enema and other bizarre varieties. As a straight male whose idea of kinky is letting the girl go on top, sticking a plastic tube up my bum was initially disconcerting. The liver flush though has been a cornerstone practice of the naturopathic community for decades and I thought it worth a try for the sake of my skin.

It gave me a mild improvement. The small green bobbing bits of shit that show up in the toilet with your next major bowel movement at the conclusion of the detox after the revolting olive oil concoction-- which supposedly contracts your detoxified gallbladder to release the stones passed into it from your detoxified liver-- are supposed to be actually gallstones, and demonstrate that you are successfully detoxifying your liver and gallbladder.
This liver flush, especially as it involves a general detox program high in fiber (especially pectin with the apple emphasis) does effectively cleanse your colon with benefits for elimination and a positive on skin and general health, but it is not accurately a liver flush per se. The calorie restrictive diet low in foods requiring much metabolism does go easy on the liver and help to decongest somewhat. However, for one, the supposed gallstones that float in the toilet are not gallstones. Ultrasounds done on people doing these liver flushes to end the controversy once and for all have demonstrated unequivocally that if and when they do have gallstones prior to the flush, they have them to the same extent and number after the flush. When you pass a gallstone, you really do feel it and it is very painful. The floating green gobs of excrement are shit wrapped up with the olive oil and grapefruit/lemon juice. The notion of the detox softening the stones for easier passing is medically unacceptable. The idea that acne sufferers have gallstones or weaker livers is untenable. That being said, detox's do give the liver and body a break and chance to revitalize itself, in the same way that by leaving the office and going to Hawaii we come back feeling brand new. This therefore shows itself in our skin and other aspects of health, but we remain prone to breakouts as the internal causes persist.

These detoxes and flushes do genuinely enhance general wellbeing and this has salubrious effects on the skin, but for the reasons I've discusses in this and my previous post, its effect on both the liver and acne are limited if not questionable.

I had especially good effects with the 3-day apple fast in the controversial acnefreein3days 'scams' all over the internet. this is basically a scam for the price, as it's a book of pointless anecdotes with the whole point of it finally revealed in one page at the very end, but with a title like that if you have acne your curiosity gets the better of you. it's nothing but organic golden delicious apples for 3 days, lots of water with nightly enemas followed by the olive oil lemon juice on the third night. this is a shorter simpler version of most liver flush programs but i actually found that i got more out of it than my previous experience with the longer flush, so it's worth a try. a cure it is not, but to clear nicely if you have mild to moderate acne before a big event it's quite worthwhile. if you're female than you'll also like the added slimming effect of such a short-term calorie restrictive diet.

For general liver health, I recommend cycling liver cleansing and building herbs, with 2 weeks burdock, yellow dock, red clover and then 2 weeks milk thistle, astragalus, agnus castus, artichoke; with continuous use of chastetree berry for females and saw palmetto for males. I adopt this personally to great benefit and those I've recommended this to have seen great improvement. A convenient alternative is to take the product Dermacleanse available at http://zenmed.com; do not bother with the topical products purchase only the capsules. They should be taken 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, cycling on and off and on and off.

Like you, I take MSM, for me 5-10g diluted in water daily. This is excellent for collagen esp. with vit c, and is a secret of 30-40something women to get that 20something skin again (besides quitting smoking). i used to take alpha lipoic but ditched it to simplify my supplement routine which is pill-intensive as it is, including a multivitamin, a, b, c, e, zinc, selenium, chromium and the aforementioned herbal routine.

Glad you like my posts and hope you find some useful info in there.



QUOTE(bexi @ Mar 27 2005, 03:30 PM)
Antony, you sound like you really know what you're talking about, good thing with so much misinformation out there...So what is your opinion on liver flushes then, do you think they have any effect at all? I am pretty much on all the supplements you already mentioned in another thread, plus a few others (alpha lipoic acid,milk thistle and MSM I can really recommend also), but was considering doing a gentle liver flush as well - just olive oil and grapefruit juice, (no Epsom salts, which just sound too revolting!).
  Keep up the good work posting comprehensive, informative and reasoned replies, at this rate we will all be managing our own health as lay-practitioners rather than having to rely so heavily on the wisdom (or not as the case so often seems to be!) of the medical community eusa_clap.gif

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#7 bexi

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 02:03 PM

[QUOTE]I've heard of that apple cleanse, not from the acnefreein3days thing but from Patrick Holfords optimum nutrition bible, which is the ultimate in accessible natural health info in my opinion as it is so well researched with alot of medical information (but completely understandable and non-jargonised the way he writes it) and no wacky ideas - I would recommend it to anyone who takes an active interest in their health and well-being. I might jus have to give it a go, although the idea of eating only apples for 3 whole days sounds damn near impossible...would Royal Gala be OK? - I don't like Golden Delicious!!! biggrin.gif

Is there any reason for rotating the herbal supplements? At the mo I am only taking milkthistle tincture for a liver cleanse supplement (and am also drinkin lots of water with lemon in it, but not sure if this is liver cleansing in itself), but fully intend to go and get some burdock, yellow dock, red clover,astragalus and atrichoke asap as I have been hearing lots of good stuff about these herbs for a while now.What exactly is the benefit of rotation or is it better just not to mix certain herbs?

As far as the liver flush goes, ummm. I can't say I was convinced when I first read about it -as you say, passing gallstones is meant to be way painful, even if you have softened them up with a bit of olive oil! Sounds like it could be pretty cleansing generally, but I do'nt know if I would want to go through the pukiness of it all just for a bit of a mild flush. I think I'll jus stick to me bentonite for now...!

[As a straight male whose idea of kinky is letting the girl go on top, sticking a plastic tube up my bum was initially disconcerting.QUOTE]

Mate, next time maybe you should combine the two activities and you might jus have a bit more fun!!!....soz, could'nt resist!!!

Cheers for your prompt response Antony, and yet again another blindingly informative post! Are you training to become a naturopath then or wot? If not, why not!!!!

#8 bexi

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 02:08 PM

ignore the (quote) at the top - still gettin the hang of this posting thing, as you can prob tell i have only just popped my message board cherry although have been voyeuristically (is that the right spelling?) hangin around for a while now!!!

#9 Antony

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 03:57 PM

Royal Gala is theoretically fine as all apples are rich in fiber and this achieves the main goal on the detox program of scrubbing out colon with the soluble fiber on the inside and the insoluble fiber in the peel. Green apples and especially Golden Delicious are even more rich in pectin, which is especially efficient at picking up toxins depositing in the intestines by blood passing from the liver where they've been detoxified for elimination. Thus Golden Delicious are the ideal but in theory any apples will do. It is important that they be organic as pesticides entering your body will inihibit your body going into cleansing mode; if not you'll have to peel them, and that limits the fiber benefit you'll get.

The point of cycling liver-related herbal supplements like the ones you and I have been mentioning are to let your liver cleanse, and then build, and then cleanse, and build and so on. This is the best way of gradually building your liver up into a better organ for constantly detoxing and enhancing your body, whenever.

As for the bedroom idea, maybe I'll bring it up when the moment is right ;-)


[quote=bexi,Mar 27 2005, 08:03 PM]
[QUOTE]I've heard of that apple cleanse, not from the acnefreein3days thing but from Patrick Holfords optimum nutrition bible, which is the ultimate in accessible natural health info in my opinion as it is so well researched with alot of medical information (but completely understandable and non-jargonised the way he writes it) and no wacky ideas - I would recommend it to anyone who takes an active interest in their health and well-being. I might jus have to give it a go, although the idea of eating only apples for 3 whole days sounds damn near impossible...would Royal Gala be OK? - I don't like Golden Delicious!!! biggrin.gif

Is there any reason for rotating the herbal supplements? At the mo I am only taking milkthistle tincture for a liver cleanse supplement (and am also drinkin lots of water with lemon in it, but not sure if this is liver cleansing in itself), but fully intend to go and get some burdock, yellow dock, red clover,astragalus and atrichoke asap as I have been hearing lots of good stuff about these herbs for a while now.What exactly is the benefit of rotation or is it better just not to mix certain herbs?

As far as the liver flush goes, ummm. I can't say I was convinced when I first read about it -as you say, passing gallstones is meant to be way painful, even if you have softened them up with a bit of olive oil! Sounds like it could be pretty cleansing generally, but I do'nt know if I would want to go through the pukiness of it all just for a bit of a mild flush. I think I'll jus stick to me bentonite for now...!

[As a straight male whose idea of kinky is letting the girl go on top, sticking a plastic tube up my bum was initially disconcerting.QUOTE]

Mate, next time maybe you should combine the two activities and you might jus have a bit more fun!!!....soz, could'nt resist!!!

Cheers for your prompt response Antony, and yet again another blindingly informative post! Are you training to become a naturopath then or wot? If not, why not!!!!

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[/quote]

#10 dermpatron

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 04:07 PM

The "Final Solution"? eusa_think.gif

Genocide of the acne race? eusa_shifty.gif

#11 AC_United

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 06:27 PM

Reading some of your reactions to Leo's book has disappointed me.
Some people haven't even tried it and are rubbishing it already!
Let me tell you I am 20 years old and started getting acne when I was 12. As you can imagine my teen years have been decimated and been complete shit.
Anyway to cut a long story short I found Leo and his book when I was 16, a time when I was at a really low point. Can you imagine I didn't have a credit card to purchase the book and I was so confused and desperate about finding a solution, so I shot an email to Leo in the hope that he would have pity on me and send me the e-book free and what happens? low and behold he emails me a copy free!
In the following months I sent him many emails, most of them repetitive and most already answered in the e-book. However he was very helpful and replied to everything! He was so patient with me even though I took the piss.

Anyway since then he’s updated his book, so since I had got a little older and after noticing huge improvements with my acne following his protocols on bowel cleansing and liver cleansing, I decided I wanted to put something back into his research as well as a thank you, so purchased the new version.

I can tell you from experience his information is invaluable. He has completely given me a life since the age of 17 to this day. I really don’t know where I would have got such accurate and detailed information that actually worked.
His methods work because quite simply he experienced it and he went through his own battle with acne which led to a chain of events that led to him piecing the “acne puzzle� together. So like he says "listen to people with experience not people who think they know how to do something".

Anyhow I just wanted to reply to this thread because I wanted to show my support for a guy who has done so much for me and felt I couldn’t stand by and listen to people slag him off.
Currently he is working on a very big research project. He hinted he "wants to see the world free of disease" and that "people should live much longer than the average life expectancy" so I believe he is doing some work along those lines. And he is dead right, in fact his acne program goes a long way of getting a person back to his/her peak health.

So all I’ll say is before criticizing and judging something try it first. If not then you are just one of those people who moans, moans and moans without actually doing anything and putting the effort in. You want instant results. So you actually feel years of abusing your body will be fixed in one day. As they say acne sufferers wants results like yesterday.....and I can so so relate to that.

I think I have gone on quite a bit, so gonna wrap it up, for those who wanna help themselves all I can say is get his program, and if all you can do for now is liver purges do them, they made a huge difference for me and gave me the encouragement to go on. C ya
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#12 Blo0dCrIeSZ

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE(AC_United @ Mar 28 2005, 12:27 AM)
Reading some of your reactions to Leo's book has disappointed me.
Some people haven't even tried it and are rubbishing it already!
Let me tell you I am 20 years old and started getting acne when I was 12. As you can imagine my teen years have been decimated and been complete shit.
Anyway to cut a long story short I found Leo and his book when I was 16, a time when I was at a really low point. Can you imagine I didn't have a credit card to purchase the book and I was so confused and desperate about finding a solution, so I shot an email to Leo in the hope that he would have pity on me and send me the e-book free and what happens? low and behold he emails me a copy free!
In the following months I sent him many emails, most of them repetitive and most already answered in the e-book. However he was very helpful and replied to everything! He was so patient with me even though I took the piss.

Anyway since then he’s updated his book, so since I had got a little older and after noticing huge improvements with my acne following his protocols on bowel cleansing and liver cleansing, I decided I wanted to put something back into his research as well as a thank you, so purchased the new version.

I can tell you from experience his information is invaluable. He has completely given me a life since the age of 17 to this day. I really don’t know where I would have got such accurate and detailed information that actually worked.
His methods work because quite simply he experienced it and he went through his own battle with acne which led to a chain of events that led to him piecing the “acne puzzle� together. So like he says "listen to people with experience not people who think they know how to do something".

Anyhow I just wanted to reply to this thread because I wanted to show my support for a guy who has done so much for me and felt I couldn’t stand by and listen to people slag him off.
Currently he is working on a very big research project. He hinted he "wants to see the world free of disease" and that "people should live much longer than the average life expectancy" so I believe he is doing some work along those lines. And he is dead right, in fact his acne program goes a long way of getting a person back to his/her peak health.

So all I’ll say is before criticizing and judging something try it first. If not then you are just one of those people who moans, moans and moans without actually doing anything and putting the effort in. You want instant results. So you actually feel years of abusing your body will be fixed in one day. As they say acne sufferers wants results like yesterday.....and I can so so relate to that.

I think I have gone on quite a bit, so gonna wrap it up, for those who wanna help themselves all I can say is get his program, and if all you can do for now is liver purges do them, they made a huge difference for me and gave me the encouragement to go on. C ya

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Strange, cause you posted that post every time leo's e book is brought up....I think it is word for word too. And the guy who was saying leo was a fanatic, DID read the book...How did you ever find pure goat milk, buy many supplements, and eat organic foods when you were at such a young age...your parents wouldn't even loan you their credit card to buy this book, yet they let you buy an enema. That just seems uncouth if you ask me.

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Boxers are cool until things dangle. Sometimes that is the best part.

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Triple inverse and long exchange traded funds deviate to zero with volatility.

Conversations you have with friends are never funny to others. Keep them to yourself.

Retelling movie clips that are "funny" ruins them. You look like an ass.

Soy vanilla decaf venti lattes are 4.65 at Starbucks and 5 dollars at Barnes and Noble.

#13 Antony

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:25 PM

Given that your implementation of his protocols coincided with your late teen years' hormonal transition from adolescence to post-adolescence this could equally account for your perceived improvement in acne as in the majority of cases of adolescent acne it naturally self-resolves in the late teen years, just as yours began improving. I harbor no doubts as to the program's efficacy for enhancing general health, however as I have clearly outlined and substantiated in my previous review, its efficacy for acne is both conceptually and experientially limited.

It should be abundantly clear from my post that far from any ignorant bashing I have in fact devoted earnest effort to reading and applying his protocols, which, while beneficial for general health when taken piecemeal, give me no pause in critiquing as extraordinarily unrealistic and unpragmatic in process, and indeed limited in results, save perhaps for one willing to do nothing else whatosoever for several months at a time.

I do not doubt that with time Leo Kiesen will produce a similarly themed e-book on doubling our natural lifespan drawing on studies with laboratory mice on calorie restrictive diets and with tips on optimising your secretion of human growth hormone and suchlike. It will be likewise highly impractical save for someone who literally does nothing else with their life, and will therefore appeal greatly to his target market of idle retirees with such a product, as no one under 50 bothers to buy a book titled "How To Increase Your Longevity".

He does reiterate throughout his unrelenting standards ("if you only do what you've been doing you'll only get what you've been getting," etc.), to reinforce guilt in the acne sufferer at the notion that his or her acne is "a message that your body is sending you that something is wrong inside and needs to be fixed" and is therefore somehow the acne sufferer's fault. Acne in an adolescent is not a sign that the adolescent has severe internal biochemical problems mandating severe dietary and lifestyle makeovers. It is a sign of one thing and one thing only: the adolescent has oversensitive oil gland receptors overstimulated by the elevated androgen levels typical of adolescence and required for the sexual maturation at the time, and/or excess skin cell shedding within the pilosebaceous unit (pore/follicle containing the sebaceous gland) and/or weak follicular walls.

An adolescent with acne can have the healthiest diet in the world and throughly detox routinely in addition to following all of Leo's protocols of rebalancing hormones, eliminating candida, alkalizing blood, cleansing colon and maintaining proper channels of elimination, cleansing and rebuilding liver function in addition to generally abstaining from the "evils" of western society and the military-industrial-hydrogenated-vegetable-oil complex. Will this benefit their general health? Absolutely. Will this "cure" their moderate to severe acne? Almost certainly not, while their best friend continues to live off McDonald's and thinks Acidophilus is a heavy metal band from Norway and yet has perfect skin.

This is because, as Leo Kiesen himself makes a point of only VERY hastily conceding at the end of his 100-page manifesto on diet deep within the boook: "Why is it that some people eat like crap, don't take supplements or EFAs and still have clear skin? Well, their liver is better than yours [IRRELEVANT, FOR REASONS DISCUSSED IN MY PREVIOUS POST]. That and the fact that acne-sufferers tend to have more sensitive oil gland receptors". THAT little admission at the end, a dozen words out of the almost 100,000 you pay for, IS the reason you have acne and your friend does not.

The liver DOES deactivate and eliminate used and excess hormones so they do not remain in the blood to continue overstimulating the oil gland receptors, but the liver only does this AFTER these androgens have already been produced and have interacted with oversensitive oil gland receptors thereby causing acne. Acne sufferers don't generally have the problem of loitering hormones going back to the oil gland receptors for another round; the problem is the hormones overstimulating the oil gland receptors the FIRST time around, and there's no preventing that if you have sensitive oil gland receptors (except by anti-androgenic birth control pills for females, or highly calorie restrictive diets or Accutane for both sexes). Oversensitive oil gland receptors and follicular characteristics are phenotypes of your skin's dermal genotype that like anything genetic cannot be "fixed," save by purposefully damaging the oil glands as with Accutane.

At any rate, the emphatically defensive and even wounded tone of your post strongly suggests that you are either Leo himself or an employee of his newly revamped and expanded business, so I'm not surprised you would be so effusively but ambiguously supportive.

#14 AC_United

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 05:10 AM

Antony did it ever occur to you that I might actually be a real person who has actually gone through his program and see results?

No offence but you can talk the talk all you want but it's until you implement the program that you being to see the results like I did.
You say maybe my acne just started going away as my hormones settled later in my teen years. That wasn't the case, I agree some teenage acne does reduce and maybe go away all together after you pass your teen years. However trust me when I say I was suffering everyday! Every passing day just seemed exactly the same as the day before...acne everyday. But his program gave me a way out.
In particular the liver cleansing and strengthening protocols and the bowel cleanse.
When you suffer with the same problem for almost 10 years, day in day out, hour in and hour out and then for 1 month go on his program and his see the results, you will see the difference. Are you telling me amazingly that particular month out of the 10 years coincided with my hormones settling down? I think not

You continue to say his program is limited and not experimented, well you then me a more comprehensive program? You tell me a program which people have tried and gotten results? Not the odd supplement but a more rounded approach like Leo's program?

Someone said I post this when negative stuff is said about Leo. I have only posted this once before when some people were bashing his book and now again since the topic is brought up. Maybe I do go defensive, but you honestly tell me if someone did as much for your life as Leo has done for mine is the least you would do is stick up for him when he comes in for stick? And yes the post is word for word because I hold those views now too.
I am not an employee or Leo himself, I wish.........maybe if someone here who was also on Leo's acne forum can check my posts and let you know that I am just a regular guy who suffered with acne that went on his program.

And Antony my previous response wasn't directed to you individually but to people generally who haven't tried his program and feel the need to pass negative judgement.

Anyhow, I know people have different agendas when rubbishing other peoples work. It’s especially sad when they have not tested or properly used the program but only implemented selective parts.
But I will say one thing that is true now and will be true in many years to come. Leo Kiesen has done more for acne then anyone else. His work on acne is dead on and where others feed you incorrect and sometimes dangerous information on acne his work has all been tested and researched thoroughly on the people that matter...acne sufferers themselves.
Only those that attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible

#15 AC_United

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 05:18 AM

QUOTE(bloodcries @ Mar 27 2005, 06:07 PM)
Strange, cause you posted that post every time leo's e book is brought up....I think it is word for word too.  And the guy who was saying leo was a fanatic, DID read the book...How did you ever find pure goat milk, buy many supplements, and eat organic foods when you were at such a young age...your parents wouldn't even loan you their credit card to buy this book, yet they let you buy an enema.  That just seems uncouth if you ask me.

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I am in the UK, I phoned around for raw goats milk. I live in London so you can imagine how hard it must have been. But always remember if you want to do something then you put your mind to it and you do it. So I found raw goats milk and had it shipped to me every month or so.
About supplements and organic foods, I was desperate and determined I got to a stage where I knew I had to do something. So I made sure money I got from college grant, pocket money and part-time work went towards that instead of clothes, latest trainers and stuff that every teen wanted and was getting.
I didnt say my parents wouldn't lend me their credit card. I just never told them. I went about finding and trying things on my own. I think alot of people who suffer from acne would tell you that they keep their battle to themselves.

Only those that attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible

#16 Antony

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 07:54 AM

You say that you are now 20.

You also say that you acquired Leo's e-book and began implementing his protocols at 16.

You further state that you began seeing results after only 1 month.

How do you then account for the fact that FOUR years after the first month of dramatically noticeable results your acne clearly still has not been "cured," as Leo promises, to such an extent that you would surely have better things to do than continue visiting a website for acne sufferers.

If you say that this is because despite being cured-- and after FOUR years spent implementing such a restrictive lifestyle as Leo's program demands I REALLY hope for your sake that you are-- you wish to spread the gospel according to Leo so that others may find salvation, or that you wish to further your own education vis-a-vis acne, then this only proves my point: you are that rare, anomalous person who is able to culture raw goat milk in a dark corner of his room every night while performing enemas and never eating in a restaurant with friends unless he brings a pocketful of vitamins, probiotics, digestive enzymes and liver herbs with him to gulp down before noshing (on what? anything served in a conventional restaurant would have Leo in conniptions), and only then assuming that he is planning a bowel cleanse the next morning to flush out the indulgence.

THIS apparently is exactly the kind of person so obsessed with doing anything and everything for his acne that he continues to visit acne websites long after he has cleared up entirely.

Apparently also the kind of person who as a teenager doesn't buy clothes so that he can buy raw goat milk to drink because pasteurized milk lacks the proper probiotic balance for optimal intestinal health and contains enzyme inhibitors that risk polluting the blood with improper metabolization. That kind of person.

For anyone else reading, if YOU are this kind of person, by all means, spend your money on a program that REQUIRES you to be this kind of person to achieve the promise advertised right there in the title-- to be cured. Because as Leo himself says, "You can't just do parts here and there, doing what's easier and giving up if it seems too hard, if you want to see results."

Now alternatively, AC_United, if you actually HAVEN'T cleared up entirely, then you are hardly a suitable advocate for a self-proclaimed cure, as anyone would agree that a cure for acne that takes you more than FOUR years to implement throughout your late teens is redundant: in that time the vast majority of teens experience a natural remission of acne as their adolescent androgen levels subside... without them doing anything at all.

If you claim that your lack of success may not be attributable to Leo so much as to your own challenges and setbacks along the way, then answer me this: if you began seeing results 1 month after implementing the program at 16, and proceeded to follow through with the protocols as the months went by, then, bearing in mind that Leo advises a month of liver work for every year the liver has been toxified and given that your acne of 6 years at that point would have meant half a year of liver work, what excuse could you possibly have for failing to "cure" within 4 years what according to Leo should have been curable within, at most, a year from the start of the program's implementation, i.e. by 17-18. If you have found that the program takes longer to figure out and more effort to invest in than what you have managed thus far, exception that you are to begin with, then frankly it's not much of a treatment let alone a cure.

In fact, HOWEVER you look at it, it becomes apparent that Leo Kiesen's cure for acne is not a cure per se, not least a cure for acne. It is not a cure for acne because while admirable it remains an ultimately overreaching endeavor to take every step imaginable to improve every possible aspect of one's health, with only the adventitious PERK of benefiting the colon, liver, skin and thus acne. This is not specific enough, and this is why the program comprises a messy compendium crammed with every conceivable supplement and detoxification method known to man. It is a case of throwing anything and everything known to help the body in the hope that this has the side-effect of assisting acne, and of course to some extent it does. However, for a cure, this isn't good enough. It must be streamlined, made more elegant, simple and practicable, or else it will remain viable only as a generic program for bodily health and a reference for options and ideas for improving health, but not acne specifically. It requires you to leap a mile in order to avoid a pothole, and insists that you learn to walk on your hands in order to heal a broken toe.

Most importantly, this is why it is not a cure: it must be adopted indefinitely. Leo would argue that this is the point, that a program like this SHOULD be adopted by anyone and everyone all their lives for the sake of everyone's better health. And while in an ideal world that may well be a sound argument, it is NOT the point.

The POINT is that when a program claims to be a cure for acne, it should do exactly that. Not test your liver for parasites, not examine your blood for pleomorphisms, not convince you that you have gallstones where ultrasounds show none, not demand you stuff yourself with hundreds of dollars a month worth of vitamin and herbal supplements and overpriced health food products, and definitely not insist that you keep this up for FOUR years to the rest of your LIFE in order to have a hope in hell of suppressing persistent adult severe acne, and then blame you for not being willing to take every step in solving a problem which as I have exhaustively demonstrated in preceding posts is NOT the fault of the acne sufferer in the first place in over 99% of cases (and I'm talking about oversensitive oil gland receptors, not eating one too many Jaffa Cakes, in case you haven't been following).

It is most certainly an excellent resource for general bodily health and an invaluable reference for naturopathic approaches to holistic wellbeing; it is not, however, an approach to let alone remission of acne as such.

A briefly and intermittently practicable treatment for the body that correspondingly yields benefits for the skin it is.

A cure for acne it is not.



QUOTE(AC_United @ Mar 28 2005, 11:10 AM)
Antony did it ever occur to you that I might actually be a real person who has actually gone through his program and see results?

No offence but you can talk the talk all you want but it's until you implement the program that you being to see the results like I did.
You say maybe my acne just started going away as my hormones settled later in my teen years. That wasn't the case, I agree some teenage acne does reduce and maybe go away all together after you pass your teen years. However trust me when I say I was suffering everyday! Every passing day just seemed exactly the same as the day before...acne everyday. But his program gave me a way out.
In particular the liver cleansing and strengthening protocols and the bowel cleanse.
When you suffer with the same problem for almost 10 years, day in day out, hour in and hour out and then for 1 month go on his program and his see the results, you will see the difference. Are you telling me amazingly that particular month out of the 10 years coincided with my hormones settling down? I think not

You continue to say his program is limited and not experimented, well you then me a more comprehensive program? You tell me a program which people have tried and gotten results? Not the odd supplement but a more rounded approach like Leo's program?

Someone said I post this when negative stuff is said about Leo. I have only posted this once before when some people were bashing his book and now again since the topic is brought up. Maybe I do go defensive, but you honestly tell me if someone did as much for your life as Leo has done for mine is the least you would do is stick up for him when he comes in for stick? And yes the post is word for word because I hold those views now too.
I am not an employee or Leo himself, I wish.........maybe if someone here who was also on Leo's acne forum can check my posts and let you know that I am just a regular guy who suffered with acne that went on his program.

And Antony my previous response wasn't directed to you individually but to people generally who haven't tried his program and feel the need to pass negative judgement.

Anyhow, I know people have different agendas when rubbishing other peoples work. It’s especially sad when they have not tested or properly used the program but only implemented selective parts.
But I will say one thing that is true now and will be true in many years to come. Leo Kiesen has done more for acne then anyone else. His work on acne is dead on and where others feed you incorrect and sometimes dangerous information on acne his work has all been tested and researched thoroughly on the people that matter...acne sufferers themselves.

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#17 AC_United

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 09:16 AM

Firstly I did not say that Leo's program is a cure per se. I simply stated that it has helped and benefited me greatly. I did not mention that I am 100% clear of acne.
I know some people have a problem with this word "cure". Cure should mean cure. As you explained it takes alot of hard work and an approach that most people would find 'not normal'. But you see this is more than curing your acne. You have to create the right mindset. It seems by your arguments you are more conditioned to think of all the negatives and why you cannot do this program rather than why you can.

I started doing parts of the program when I was 16, like starting to eat healthy and taking supplements. At 17 I did the first major step to the program, the liver purge. This is what made the greatest difference and I physically removed many stones, I saw them all in the toilet to be honest so know what I got rid of. And how do I know it worked? Because the acne that just wouldn't go away years before, few days after the purge started to reduce and go away. However that wasn't all. I did the main bulk of the program at 18 which was my first bowel cleanse. Off course this was the hardest. You only have to read up about how much plaque is found when autopsies are done on people to realise this is no quick process. Anyway 18 to 20 I have like spaced out the bowel cleanses and seen great improvement to the point where existing acne disappeared completely. #
However I know I have more work to do. I know I haven't done as many purges as I would like. Also I have been very bad in my diet recently. I still get spots if I go off the trail and start junking and eating crap. So you’re wondering what about that word cure? How can it be a cure if you still get spots? Well I didn't call it a cure. But I know someone who has been on the program, gone through each step thoroughly and is strict in regards to their diet would most definitely be 100% clear.

Leo does say you can strengthen your liver to the point where it can handle any amount of toxins and hormonal imbalance. But off course I and many others are probably along way to achieving that. For example you have to "clear the way" before effectively strengthening the liver, meaning you need to remove stones/ And as I stated I need to do more purges so that is why I am not able to fully see the benefits of liver strengthening.

As I said with your negative approach to the program, stating all the reasons why you can't possibly do the program because its means you have no life is untrue.

".... then this only proves my point: you are that rare, anomalous person who is able to culture raw goat milk in a dark corner of his room every night while performing enemas and never eating in a restaurant with friends unless he brings a pocketful of vitamins, probiotics, digestive enzymes and liver herbs with him to gulp down before noshing"

Why do you see it as that rare and anomalous person? Has society conditioned you so much that you cannot have a mind of your own? Just because something is different it doesn't mean it’s wrong or weird. Alot of old great inventors wouldn't have invented anything if they thought along those lines. If they thought it was weird or not normal to think they wouldn't have achieved what they did. You need to open up. Judge things on their merits not on the 'theory' that is supposedly behind it.

Who says you can't culture raw goat’s milk? You can laze around the house, waste time watching TV, but you cannot spend literally 10 minutes every 3 days to add milk to a jar with grains and let it culture? Then another 10 minutes every 3 days filtering the kefir into a container?
Sure the bowel cleanse is the hardest, 10 days at a time without eating any solids. But I have done it, in fact I have done it 6 times. I still managed to go to University in that time. You see Antony it's not about why something cannot be done it’s about how to do something. I take my bag with me to Uni. When I was bowel cleansing I took 2 plastic bottles with me. With some bentonite and fiber in small containers. And then used this as needed.

Leo is being upfront with you when he says "if you want results you have to put work and effort in"
I am not saying that the program is easy. I am not saying that your average Joe would consider doing it. But it’s the most effective thing out there if you’re willing to try it. When nothing else works then what have you got to lose? If acne was so easy dealing with then why would you still be searching to help clear it. It’s obvious there are tons of things that don’t work out there. But from experience I know this works.

Then you have those people, many who respond with offensive and rude comments towards an e-book that someone has spent so much time, work and effort on, without trying it, knowing deep down that it’s too much for them. Knowing that it doesn’t fit their desire for a quick fix. And then they do what we humans do best when something isn't how we want or what we expect, they find it easier and reassuring to ridicule it, ridicule the one thing they know just might be the right thing they have been looking for but they are just to dam lazy to attempt it.




Only those that attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible

#18 bexi

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 09:52 AM

Antony- right you are then, Golden Delicious it is! I only eat organic apples anyway so that is'nt an issue for me - I bought some non-organic the other day cos they were cheap and by god did they taste bad -had this wierd film on them that stayed on your teeth after you had taken a bite....yikes, pesticide poisoning -had to throw the fekin things in the bin! Ach well, you live an you learn....

AC United, I think you need to take a chill pill hon, you seem to have an excessive degree of loyalty to someone who was kind enough to send you a free copy of their e-book - good enough of the fella I admit, but bear in mind that he is also trying to promote a product which at the time was prob in its infancy, and a few freebies here and there are only going to help sell more copies in the long run...sorry to be cynical, but thats the way of it I'm afraid. I really do'nt think that Antony was rubbishing anything, in fact he said on more than one occasion that it had alot of useful info, just that it was mis-leading to cite it as an acne cure alone when in fact it is more of a system of managing all round health in a way that you would have to be very puritanical about...is it possible to have acne when you treat your body like a temple? Probably not.
A difference of opinion is a good thing and there is nothing to get defensive about. I personally would prefer someone who has taken the time to read such literature to give me an unbiased opinion that is based on their own experience - there are enough expensive products and 'cures' out there without another one to add to the list, and by the sounds of it, that is exactly what Leo Kiesen is peddling...who has the time to make such drastic lifestyle changes and the money to buy literally hundereds of £'s worth of supplements? All the opinions I have heard on this book are pretty much based around the central idea of the difficulty of implementation - most people are looking for something they can incooporate into their lives, not a completely new way of living.
The regime that I am following at the mo which is v similar to what Antony has been recommending minus a few supplements that I intend to incooporate asap, and plus a few other topicals and detox aids of my own, is working really well for me and I have had acne for over 15 years now - it is not life changing or massively expensive...do'nt people with acne suffer enough without having to be subjected difficult and complicated cures?
If it worked for you AC, then cool and wicked, but a healthy difference of opinion just helps other peple to make up their own minds, which has gotta be a good thing, eh? Information is what these forums are all about after all... biggrin.gif

#19 bexi

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 10:04 AM

AC, who has been offensive and rude? As yet I have seen nowhere written 'Leo Kiesen is a tosser and his e-book smells like a rancid fanny fart'...now that would be offensive and rude! I think we all need to take a deep breath and chill...

BTW, jus cos i don't want to invest my whole life into sortin out my skin does NOT make me lazy - I have a 5 year old and a life too which tends to make complex regimens a bit of a no no, thats all....peace, love and heated but not offensive or rude debate....!

#20 goldengirl

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 10:54 AM

[QUOTE]When you suffer with the same problem for almost 10 years, day in day out, hour in and hour out and then for 1 month go on his program and his see the results, you will see the difference. Are you telling me amazingly that particular month out of the 10 years coincided with my hormones settling down?"

AC, problem is your timeframe isn't adding up. According to your posts, including the excerpt above, acne began for you at age 12. You say you started with Leo's book at 16. Then at 17 following liver cleanses etc. Then only one month of following prescribed protocol achieved dramatic results? Where did the 10 yrs come from?

I think when people are untruthful, a close examination of present and past conversations will reveal discrepancies. It is hard to keep the facts straight with regard to what has already been stated.

If your trying to sincerely help Leo and in fact are not associated with him, I would suggest refraining from posting, as most here have been around the block a few times with regard to supposed acne cures and have developed a healthy and necessary skeptism.