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oily skin

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#1 Mad ID

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:05 AM

There is a theory that the fat that could not transform to energy causes acne and makes skin oily. B5 works on that thery and some other acne med.

I have very ULTRY oily skin and bad acne. I'm wondering. If I would eat nothing besides some vegetables (zero of fat) and drink only water for 3 days (just for test) would my skin still be oily?
I think that function of survival is more important than stupid acne so body would be forced to use all the fat available?

Has someone tryed this? I'm on this for 2 hours already smile.gif)

I sick of having acne and bad looking face any more.

#2 hazelnut66

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:11 AM

i've been wondering the same thing, but how are fat/androgens related? you never hear derms talking about metabolic issues (so far as i know) because it's supposed to be hormonal, right? i'm just so lost as to all these different theories...

#3 Darklord

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE(Mad ID @ Jan 28 2005, 03:05 PM)
There is a theory that the fat that could not transform to energy causes acne and makes skin oily. B5 works on that thery and some other acne med.

I have very ULTRY oily skin and bad acne. I'm wondering. If I would eat nothing besides some vegetables (zero of fat) and drink only water for 3 days (just for test) would my skin still be oily?
I think that function of survival is more important than stupid acne so body would be forced to use all the fat available?

Has someone tryed this?  I'm on this for 2 hours already smile.gif

I sick of having acne and bad looking face any more.

View Post



Interesting eusa_think.gif, also if u wanted i would reccomend that u take 2-3 evening primrose oil spread throughout the day after meals. Also u could use something like emu oil on your face as a moisturizer this will mimic the skins sebum but will not block pores as it has very small molecules so it penetrates deep into the skin.

Good luck,
Tom
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#4 Mad ID

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:23 AM

QUOTE(WindWaker* @ Jan 28 2005, 04:14 PM)
Interesting  eusa_think.gif, also if u wanted i would reccomend that u take 2-3 evening primrose oil spread throughout the day after meals. Also u could use something like emu oil on your face as a moisturizer this will mimic the skins sebum but will not block pores as it has very small molecules so it penetrates deep into the skin.

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I'm using something derm gave me 1week ago. AHA and something else ...
But "fuck that all" if my skin is so oily.. She didn't say if it cures oily skin..she was avoiding my questions

I'm using : 2x a day Hyfac gel for washing
1x Hyseke creme in the morning
1x Hyfac Plus AHA in the evening

But whan I put that creme on..after only fer hours it my face looks like sad.gif(( I can't go out with that on my face..creme mixed with oil smile.gif)

Good luck to you to.


#5 Mad ID

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE(hazelnut66 @ Jan 28 2005, 04:11 PM)
i've been wondering the same thing, but how are fat/androgens related? you never hear derms talking about metabolic issues (so far as i know) because it's supposed to be hormonal, right? i'm just so lost as to all these different theories...

View Post



Then don't have acne becouse they have good metabolism.

I don't understand...so we could just improve our metabolisam and have beautiful face, right? How to improve metabolism ? smile.gif



#6 Whatsup

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 02:25 PM

If you want your face to stop being so oily, stop washing it. The more you wash your face the more oil your face is going to produce. My face use to be so oily, now after a month its not even an issue for me and i have felt this way just a few days after not washing. Im not saying not washing is the solution to all your problems, but i feel its definitely part of it.

#7 bryan

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 04:08 PM

QUOTE(Whatsup @ Jan 28 2005, 03:25 PM)
If you want your face to stop being so oily, stop washing it.  The more you wash your face  the more oil your face is going to produce.

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Absolutely FALSE. It's time for you to join the 21st Century! biggrin.gif

Bryan

#8 Whatsup

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 06:55 PM

How could it be false when its a fact. Your face has to compensate for all the oils you stripped away during washing by producing more.

#9 hazelnut66

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE(bryan @ Jan 28 2005, 05:08 PM)
Absolutely FALSE.  It's time for you to join the 21st Century! biggrin.gif

Bryan

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i agree bryan... maybe this works for some people but others are in a rut

#10 hazelnut66

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:17 PM

QUOTE(Mad ID @ Jan 28 2005, 10:25 AM)
Then don't have acne becouse they have good metabolism.

I don't understand...so we could just improve our metabolisam and have beautiful face, right?  How to improve metabolism ? smile.gif

View Post


that is a good question...but still, why is metabolism never mentioned by derms?

#11 adultAcne

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE(bryan @ Jan 28 2005, 03:08 PM)
Absolutely FALSE.  It's time for you to join the 21st Century! biggrin.gif

Bryan

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Well then, why don't you tell us why it's false Mr. 21st Century Man!? cool.gif
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You do not need improving.
To say that you need improving
is to say that God needs improving. ~ Osho

#12 bryan

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:22 PM

Well then, why don't you tell us why it's false Mr. 21st Century Man!? cool.gif

How could it be false when its a fact. Your face has to compensate for all the oils you stripped away during washing by producing more.

I have already gone over this subject in EXQUISITE detail. Please see the thread titled "The myth of sebum production" over in the Acne Research section (it's probably two or three pages deep by now). You'll find out all about how the "feedback theory" was debunked a long time ago.

Bryan

#13 bryan

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:36 PM

OOPS! Let me make a correction: the name of the thread is "The myth of skin washing and sebum production", and it's currently near the top of the second page in the Acne Research forum.

Bryan

#14 SweetJade1980

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 12:18 AM

QUOTE(hazelnut66 @ Jan 28 2005, 08:17 PM)
that is a good question...but still, why is metabolism never mentioned by derms?

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OK, here's the deal, based on the abstracts of some scientific studies I've read, dermatologists have no "rights" to treat hormonal conditions. Therefore while they know that acne is caused by a hormonal disorder, they are trained to not refer every patient with acne to an endocrinologist (specializes in metabolic, thus hormonal disorders).

Their goal is to FIRST run you through the gamut of topical drugs, antibiotics, and accutane, some of these are anti-androgens, before finally allowing you to go see an endocrinologist (as you could grow out of it). Of course at anytime you are free to complain and demand a referral and depending on how persistant and how many years you've been battling acne, especially if you have other signs of a hormonal disorder, they will do so.

So I just typed in Androgens & Dermatology into Pubmed.org and received 36 articles, nearly half of these do not provide abstracts...

QUOTE
Aktuelle Derm. 1976 Feb;2(1):33-8. Related Articles, Links 


[Systematic treatment with sex hormones in dermatology]

[Article in German]

Zaun H.

PIP: Recently a group of hormonal contraceptives, used in the treatment of skin diseases, has been taken off the market, leading dermatologists to critically evaluate sex hormone (SH) therapy. The antiandrogenic side effect of hormonal contraceptives has been effective in treating hormonally induced skin disorders, e.g., involving oil or endocrine secretion, and hair growth. SH therapy is indicated for treatment of female acne (reports of 70% success after 2-6 months' intensive therapy), and in some cases male acne, and also for seborrhoea (report of 90% success after 1-3 months' intensive treatment), also for female sebocystamatose and Fox-Fordyce disease. In the case of female androgenic alopecia and hirsutism, SH therapy results are limited. Rosacea and periole dermatitis should probably not be treated with SH therapy. Patients with skin disorders should carefully avoid any androgen-effective oral contraceptives, even for birth control purposes, and pay particular attention to the progesterone content, since some progesterones have androgenic aftereffects (testosterone anabolica, nortestosterone derivatives). The 2-phased Eunomin with chlormadinone is 1 recommended hormonal antiandrogenic preparation available at the present time. If 1-phase therapy is preferable, Menova may be used. Since remissions of psoriasis have been observed in pregnancy, SH therapy with nortestosterone may be indicated; and also in the case of herpes simplex menstrualis and perigo simplex subacuta, therapy should be attempted.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12308225



QUOTE
Z Hautkr. 1978 Nov 1;53(21):759-65. Related Articles, Links 


[Dermatologic indications for anti-androgenic treatment]

[Article in German]

Zaun H, Ludwig E.

In spite of remarkable therapeutic results obtained by gestagens with antiandrogenic activity, usually combined with estrogen, in oily seborrhea, acne, Fox-Fordyce disease, androgenetic alopecia and hirsutism many dermatologist still hesitate to treat the named disorders by hormones. The reason for their hesitation appears to be the erroneous belief, that the named disturbances represent hormonal disorders the treatment of which does not belong to dermatology. After a survey on the mechanism of action of antiandrogens the basic difference between androgen dependent skin disorders and endocrinopathies with manifestation on the skin and its appendages is explained. Androgen dependent skin disorders, like oily seborrhea and most cases of acne are not the result of endocrine disturbances in the sense of an pathologically increased or decreased production of sexual hormons. Administering sexual hormons the physician takes advantage of the sebosuppressive effect of female sexual hormons as he does of the antiallergic activity of the hormon cortisol (and related compounds) in the treatment of eczemas. The antiandrogenic treatment of androgenetic alopecia, hirsutism and androgenetic acne--with their underlying hormonal disturbance, consisting in an increased production of androgens, represents an quasi etiological therapy. As in these cases the hormonal disturbances finds its expression mainly or exclusively in disorders of the skin or hair growth, the dermatologist, preferentially in cooperation with endocrinogists and/or gynacologists remains entitled to take over the treatment. The available drugs are discussed and suggestions are made for their appropriate use. http://www.ncbi.nlm....list_uids=82309

***Note, it appears the most signficant studies regarding acne, diet, aren't done in the United States (the place that could use the research the most)***


Statistics are that 90% of acne sufferers are just "sensitive" to normal levels of androgens, while 10% are actually hyperandrogenic. Eitherway, both of these groups still end up producing more DHT in the hair and/or sebaceous gland than normal. If you are "just sensitive", then perhaps you can function with a bit less androgens as a result. This seems to be the case and reason for givng women birth control pills, as estrogen is anti-androgenic. While Yasmin & Diane each have an extra ingredient that is more specifically geared to those with anti-androgenic needs.

QUOTE
J Endocrinol Invest. 2001 Sep;24(8):628-38. Related Articles, Links 


Skin disorders and thyroid diseases.

Niepomniszcze H, Amad RH.

Division of Endocrinology, Hospital de Clinicas Jose de San Martin, University of Buenos Aires, Argentina. hniepom@elsitio.net

Thyroid disorders have a high prevalence in medical practice; they are associated with a wide range of diseases with which they may or may not share etiological factors. One of the organs which best show this wide range of clinical signs is the skin. This review is an attempt to approach most of the dermopathies reflecting several degrees of harmfulness, coming directly or indirectly from thyroid abnormalities, as well as to update current knowledge on the relationship between the thyroid and skin. We have proposed a primary classification of skin disorders, regarding thyroid involvement, into two main groups: 1) dermopathies associated with thyroid abnormalities, mainly with autoimmune thyroid diseases, like melasma, vitiligo, Sjogren's syndrome, alopecia, idiopathic hirsutism, pre-menstrual acne, bullous diseases, connective tissue diseases, hamartoma syndrome, atopy, leprosy and DiGeorge anomaly; and 2) dermopathies depending on the nature of the thyroid disorder, in which the evolution and outcome of the skin disorder depend on the thyroidal treatment in most cases, such as trophism and skin blood flow, myxedema, alopecia, onychodystrophy, hypo- and hyperhidrosis, xanthomas, intraepidermal bullae, carotenodermia, pruritus, flushing, pyodermitis, palmoplantar keratoderma, ecchymosis, etc. In some other cases, the skin disease which developed as a consequence of the thyroid abnormality can remain unaltered despite functional treatment of the thyroid problem, such as pretibial myxedema, thyroid acropachy and some cutaneous manifestations of multiple endocrine neoplasia types 2A and 2B.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11686547

This is just to show that again, underlying hormonal disorder can very will be reflected upon your skin!


Of course, a dermatologist can prescribe some of the same drugs that an endocrinologist does for treating acne, Birth Control, Spironolactone, Dexamethasone, but they are not trained in how to properly handle these disorders. Furthermore, an endocrinologist will help us determine a more closer "root cause" and prescribe the appropriate medications or surgery in order to treat our acne (derms can't do this). So, it's not as profitable, but the more open-minded dermatologists can stll profit.


QUOTE
For those curious, this one does have a full text  ;-)

Role of hormones in pilosebaceous unit development.

Deplewski D, Rosenfield RL.

Department of Medicine and Pediatrics, The University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine, Illinois 60637-1470, USA. ddeplews@peds.bsd.uchicago.edu

Androgens are required for sexual hair and sebaceous gland development. However, pilosebaceous unit (PSU) growth and differentiation require the interaction of androgen with numerous other biological factors. The pattern of PSU responsiveness to androgen is determined in the embryo. Hair follicle growth involves close reciprocal epithelial-stromal interactions that recapitulate ontogeny; these interactions are necessary for optimal hair growth in culture. Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) and retinoids have recently been found to specifically affect sebaceous cell growth and differentiation. Many other hormones such as GH [growth hormone], insulin-like growth factors [IGFs], insulin, glucocorticoids, estrogen, and thyroid hormone play important roles in PSU growth and development. The biological and endocrinological basis of PSU development and the hormonal treatment of the PSU disorders hirsutism, acne vulgaris, and pattern alopecia are reviewed. Improved understanding of the multiplicity of factors involved in normal PSU growth and differentiation will be necessary to provide optimal treatment approaches for these disorders.
http://edrv.endojour...t/full/21/4/363

Those in bold are either factors that help or hinder our progress in eliminating acne and most of which have been mentioned among the boards.
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#15 SweetJade1980

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 12:56 AM

QUOTE(hazelnut66 @ Jan 28 2005, 08:11 AM)
i've been wondering the same thing, but how are fat/androgens related? you never hear derms talking about metabolic issues (so far as i know) because it's supposed to be hormonal, right? i'm just so lost as to all these different theories...

View Post




LOL, I guess I can give this question a shot too. From my understanding, fats, particularly Trans Fats and animal Saturated fats, serve several purposes regarding the production of acne. They function as:

Lubricants & thus transporters of a variety of stuff (bacteria, inflammatory products, proteins, hormones etc) to the skin's surface. You can have the oiliest of skin and NEVER get acne and you can have the driest of skin and do, surely it must be something more than just the sebuml? Perhaps it's what's contained in the sebum? Or how thick the sebum is, as in the case of hyperkeritinization where the skin cells are "sticky" and the skin becomes thick with layers of unshed skin cells, thus allowing for clogged pores (trapped overgrowing bacteria) to form.

Pro-inflammatories - certain fatty acids are pro-inflammatory and in the right environment, will produce inflammatory prostaglandins, increase IGF-1, which in turn increases inflammatory cytokines. Bacteria are not the ONLY irritants to produce inflammatory products, which by the way are produced by our bodies to begin with!

Building Blocks - Aside from forming prostaglandins, fats serve the purpose of forming our steriod hormones. Steriod hormones are produced from Cholesterol and include Pregnenolone, Aldosterone, Cortisol, Progesterones, Androgens, & Estrogens. In fact, Pregenolone is created first, which then branches off to produce the Adrenal Hormones (includes the androgen DHEA) or branches off to produce Progesterone. From Progesterone the Androgens are produced and if the body is functioning properly (can malfunction earlier as well) a certain % of these androgens will be converted into Estrogens or into more potent androgens (Testosterone or DHT). NOTE you don't get estrogen, without making Testosterone first,, thus it is easy to see how a buildup of testosterone can easily create problems.


http://kcampbell.bio...oidogenesis.htm (lovely diagram-- FYI, basically the words in green are the enzymes that are capable of malfunctioning)

http://www.med.unibs...i/sterhorm.html (further explanation)

Thus, how fats may indeed contribute to acne production. Of course this doesn't mean you must avoid all animal fat, but some people may find they are susceptible to the hormones or chemcials in regular animal products. If this is you, then switching to lean meats or organic meats may help. I don't pay much attention to saturated fats, but I will say that I have reduced my intake of fatty, fried, and all trans fats from my diet intentionally or as an indirect effect of avoiding certain foods. Doberwoman actually pointed me to a book, which I bought as a reference, that basically was about avoiding trans fats and saturated fats to clear acne that had worked for her. Thinking back, the foods that I do avoid, also had trans fats in them so.....who knows the "real" reason or perhaps it's a combination of all "unfavorable" ingredients/chemicals that make a food product so inappropriate for a % of us. ;-)

http://www.amazon.co...=books&n=507846

HTH
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.