Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Holy Grail of Acne?

22 posts in this topic

Okay, so as I meantioned in another post, scientists are now studying the effects of DHT blockers. Now if you were here last summer, Sweetjade and another guy posted a long thread about DHT, 5-AR blockers, etc... and I just want to add on some affordable produts that do this.

Okay so there is a substance that completely blocks DHT, not just a little bit but fully. This is called Equol and scientists are calling it the holy grail of prostate cancer and hair loss. Now Equol as a substance itself isn't sold except for one place, and it's topical for hair loss. Now Equol is made from the isoflvaone daidzein, which is commonly found in soy. Now soy has it's problems such as leaching the body of calcium, zinc, copper, etc... and other problems I won't get into(Ironically though it's linked to increased bone density). So to avoid the pitfalls of soy but the benefits of it you can get soy Isoflavones in capsule form for the cost of any other vitamin(Read: It's not expensive). Soy has two main isoflavones, daidzein and genestein. Daidzein blocks DHT and the other inhibits 5-AR and 17-AR, a double punch.

For those of you who are still not sure about soy, an equally effective(maybe more so) source of equol is Red Clover. It's absorbed just as well as soy, except it can act quicker in some cases because in the tea format, it is directly absorbed into the bloodstream, whereas in pill form, and any soy form, it's processed in the intestines. Now in addition to daidzein and genestein, Red Clover also has two other isoflavones that help, although I'm not sure what they do exactly. Red clover is dirt cheap as well, think 4.00 for 100caps or even cheaper if you get it in bulk as a herb for tea.

Now the great thing about equol is that it doesn't affect testosterone in any way shape or form. It merely prevents it from converting to the harmful DHT. Therefore if you like to bodybuild, nothings stopping your gains.

The only thing is that I don't know how much is needed in mg(that and I don't have acne anymore so I can't test it for acne, although I am going to take it for other great health reasons, mainly prostate cancer is the 2nd biggest reason of male cancer death and I know too many people my dads age with it). I know that megadosing isn't needed becasue equol is so effective at completely blocking DHT. So until equol is produced commercially(It's in the process), maybe someone could try Soy Isoflavones, or preferably Red Clover and report on their findings? Plus Red clover is a blood purifier and is a better antioxidant than E or C.

For those of you that believe androgens and more specifically DHT is the cause this could be your easy way to prevent acne.

Good luck. surprised.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WOW! eusa_clap.gif, thanks alot for that info blackbird it is really interesting smile.gif . I have a question though, about the red clover you say that it doesnt effect testosterone it only stops it from converting into DHT, would this be ok to take if you are are 15 without worrying about screwing up anything? Like hormones and that.eusa_think.gif

I would like to give this a go.

One more thing if you decide to have red clover via tea bags, how many would u have to drink daily?

Thanks alot,

Tom


[image removed by sigbot--see board rules]


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so there is a substance that completely blocks DHT, not just a little bit but fully.

I doubt that.

This is called Equol and scientists are calling it the holy grail of prostate cancer and hair loss.

What scientist(s) called it that?? Equol should have similar effects as the well-known 5a-reductase inhibitors finasteride and dutasteride, and I don't think anyone is calling either of them the "holy grail" of hair loss, and certainly not the "holy grail" of prostate cancer.

Now the great thing about equol is that it doesn't affect testosterone in any way shape or form. It merely prevents it from converting to the harmful DHT.

Actually, it will probably INCREASE testosterone a little, just like finasteride and dutasteride.

For those of you that believe androgens and more specifically DHT is the cause this could be your easy way to prevent acne.

You're forgetting the very recent study that I've cited several times, which found no benefit for acne from MK386, a potent 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor. I wouldn't get too carried away with the prospect of using Equol for acne! If MK386 didn't even help any, it's highly unlikely that Equol is any kind of "holy grail".

Bryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Windwaker: I have no clue how much to take.

Actually, it doesn't affect testosterone. It doesn't prevent DHT from forming either, that part I was wrong about. It renders it inactive.

Below are links. The first one tells all about it the best, without too much technical talk.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...c-scc032904.php

This one also says that it completely stops DHT

http://www.patienthealthinternational.com/news/1628.aspx

This link is great too.

http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-...ue=04&page=1188

http://byunews.byu.edu/archive04-Mar-lephart.aspx

http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/Gaynor303.pdf

I have dozens of more links if you are still skeptical.

Here's a defenition. It says some people can produce it naturally and some can't. From what I've read only 30% have the necessary bacteria to produce it so maybe most will have to wait until a equol itself is given to the public.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32272

Another link summing up a journal article.

http://www.hairloss-reversible.com/Hair%20...hair_news14.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the first article. Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, using Equol should actually INCREASE testosterone levels a bit, just like the 5a-reductase inhibitors do (notice in that one cited study that LH levels increased with Equol administration, indicating stimulation of the brain-gonadal axis which regulates testosterone production). There's been some pretty good evidence in recent years that DHT is indeed a player in the feedback regulation of testosterone: you lower DHT (or decrease its effect), and you stimulate a little more testosterone production.

And once again, judging by the lack of effect on acne from 5a-reductase inhibition, don't expect much from Equol.

Bryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you mean? Inhibiting 5-AR is only one way to stop the effects of DHT. Doesn't matter how you get there, as long as Equol does in fact stop the effects of DHT like it says. I have other articles I will post up in a while. They tell exactly how it works, since you seem to want that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you mean? Inhibiting 5-AR is only one way to stop the effects of DHT. Doesn't matter how you get there, as long as Equol does in fact stop the effects of DHT like it says. I have other articles I will post up in a while. They tell exactly how it works, since you seem to want that.


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you mean? Inhibiting 5-AR is only one way to stop the effects of DHT. Doesn't matter how you get there, as long as Equol does in fact stop the effects of DHT like it says.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you mean? Inhibiting 5-AR is only one way to stop the effects of DHT. Doesn't matter how you get there, as long as Equol does in fact stop the effects of DHT like it says. I have other articles I will post up in a while. They tell exactly how it works, since you seem to want that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh, we are on two different pages, that's why I was misunderstanding you. See, I don't believe that testosterone is the main reason for acne, I think it's DHT(Or at least convince myself so). I could be wrong but nobody knows for sure. As long as it prevents the DHT from binding the androgen receptor(Which is does) I'm content with it's ability to prevent prostate cancer. After all, DHT is a cause of so many bad effects people associate with testosterone. Also, just because it binds DHT, doesn't mean it reduces the plasma levels, whso when you do need DHT for the many functions it provides, it's there for your body.

Jade: Nice tree falling in the woods question of acne. Yes, I think we would have acne if we didn't have inflamation, they just wouldn't be red and raised. That is if you still think blocked pores by sebum and skin cells and bacteria thriving in it is acne. If we did get to the point where we didn't get inflammation from acne, I would be worried what other injuries we would have ignored from the lack of the body's natural defences.

I'm acne free but I don't understand why I grew out of it. Here's my thinking. You will always produce oil, and now that I've grown out of it, I still do. I also will still have the infalmmation response and the bacteria there to thrive if I ever get a spot again. This leads me to guess it's the keratinization that all of a sudden went right. But how? How can all of a sudden my cells become too sticky and plug the pores when I had acne, yet now, with nothing really changed, all of a sudden they dissolve in the sebum and are released on the surface of my skin like they are supposed to? How did they all of a sudden normalize? I know things like glycolic and such actually help to normalize it but that is with continued use and I'm at a complete loss as to why my body decided now that things would work right.

Any ideas?(I know that azelic acid, pine bark extract and sulphur all normalize this, along with retaniods in case anyone wants to use it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If thats the case then shouldnt Avodart eliminate acne since it inhibits like 90%+ dht ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, just because it binds DHT, doesn't mean it reduces the plasma levels, whso when you do need DHT for the many functions it provides, it's there for your body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If thats the case then shouldnt Avodart eliminate acne since it inhibits like 90%+ dht ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If thats the case then shouldnt Avodart eliminate acne since it inhibits like 90%+ dht ?


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Byan: It binds DHT from connecting to the androgen receptors by the skin but it doesn't affect plasma levels of DHT since DHT can be used for other physiological functions(stress resistance and neurological strength being two). Some hair loss brands like Propecia actually lower the plasma levels as well as bind the DHT, and soem studies have shown some long term side effects from this.

What everyone is saying is all well and good, but wouldn't you still get acne even if you slowed the sebum production? Granted probably not as much but if keratization is abnormal and since you will always produce some sebum, it would still clog the pores. How is it that all of a sudden, keratization goes right? My face is no less oily than before(It wasn't that oily before either), yet here I am with no acne. If I had normalized keratization I would never have had acne. I probably would have had oily skin as a teenager, but with no acne since the skin cells would have still dissolved correctly. Can someone answer me this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Byan: It binds DHT from connecting to the androgen receptors by the skin but it doesn't affect plasma levels of DHT since DHT can be used for other physiological functions(stress resistance and neurological strength being two). Some hair loss brands like Propecia actually lower the plasma levels as well as bind the DHT, and soem studies have shown some long term side effects from this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, so as I meantioned in another post, scientists are now studying the effects of DHT blockers. Now if you were here last summer, Sweetjade and another guy ...

There is nothing wrong with you.

You do not need improving.

To say that you need improving

is to say that God needs improving. ~ Osho


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Avodart eliminates 99% of both Type I and Type II enzymes needed for DHT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know the science is fuzzy at best about hte DHt binding role and bout it being inactive in some areas and not others, buit I'm just going with a trend that I see in journals and in interviews with scientists, specifically in the areas of bodybuilding and hairloss. I also read that while DHt isn't normally important in muscles because it's inhibited by 3 something and its conversion(Sorry maybe one of you guys can say the correct name as I can't remember) and if you were to eliminate that it would cause a massive effect on muscle growth, something surpassing steriods.

Anyway, having read others opinions of DHT and angrogens in general I'm leaning more and more towards the normalization of keratization. Perhaps if there was a way to bring keratin levels down to normal? Like I said above, you will always produce oil in some amounts, so if your skin isn't exfoliating properly, you should theoretically still get acne from a blockage of the pore. Since you cant eliminate the acne bacteria(Although maybe theres a way to become less sensitive to it, or have a less agressive immune response to it), maybe studying keratin is the only way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Because I _am_ kind of a stickler for details, I can't let this go by without comment:  as I indicated in that previous post above, dutasteride in the standard approved dose of 0.5 mg/day does in fact inhibit the type II enzyme to the tune of 98%-99%, but it inhibits the type I enzyme by only a little over half (dut is considerably more potent against type II than type I, and the type I enzyme is produced in the cell more rapidly than type II).  If anyone's interested in seeing the justification for those statements, the relevant data was published in a recent study which exhaustively examined the pharmacological properties of dutasteride.  I even scanned several of the graphs from that study and posted them...I'll post the links here, if anyone's interested in seeing them.

Acne is thought to be caused by Type I 5 AR enzymes, but as Bryan pointed out a Type I Inhibitor didn't stop oil production.

Well, here's a very CRUCIAL correction:  the study didn't measure sebum production at all!  All it did was measure the final effect on acne, and acne wasn't affected one way or the other!  I expect that in the near future, they WILL measure sebum production with 5a-reductase inhibition, because they were clearly surprised at the results, just like the rest of us.  I'm sure they want to get to the bottom of just exactly what IS the role of DHT in acne!

Avodart doesn't stop acne either. In fact it gave some males that never had acne acne, but did clear some others. There's a member of this board, Evigrex that took Avodart or Finasteride (Type II 5AR inhibitor) and it caused him to breakout and he had been clear previously due to accutane (correct me if I'm wrong). Futhermore someone on absolute acne boards was taking Finasteride for hair loss, but had to stop as it increased his testosterone (as expected since it's not converting into DHT or estrogen) and gave him acne that he's never had before.

I guess it's not all THAT surprising that finasteride could worsen acne a little in some people, because finasteride is just a specific type 2 inhibitor, whereas the 5a-reductase inside sebaceous glands appears to be exclusively type 1.  Therefore, I suppose you could argue that the small increase in testosterone that you get from using finasteride (~10% or so) could conceivably function as additional substrate for the type 1 enzyme in sebocytes that obviously isn't inhibited by the finasteride.  However, the failure of MK386 (or dutasteride?) to favorably affect acne is still quite puzzling, and there's no obvious explanation...

Anyway, below is the abstract being referred to, Bryan can you give us the full text?

I have a paper-copy of the study right here, but I don't have it in electronic form, unfortunately.  But if there's enough general interest in it, I can certainly scan it and post it on my Web site, which I've done with a number of other studies.  This one is only about three pages long.

Bryan


These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):

* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)

* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002

* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)

* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):

* Strengthen/Repair GI - Immune health

Research:

* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).

* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites