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Diet and acne


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#21 SuzanneHopes

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:00 AM

Call me a douche, perhaps I am self righteous and 100% retarded too...

Cant take the all knowing, Angry, self righteous, close minded,
Most likely Hemmoroid riddled BentKfeller any longer...

He has been ultimately Silenced on my computer screen ...

For all of you "Simpletons" out there..You know who you are...
(as Bent would like to think, everyone BUT him..)

I will put it words you may possibly understand...soooo read slowlyyyy...

I HAVE.. B-L-O-C-K-E-D him....

ANYONE CARE TO JOIN ME...???


lol.gif <--looky, acne cleared due to less Ben stress..yah!

(It just may make him ...go INSANE!!!! wacko.gif
...hmmm..just a thought.)

#22 Guest_Brandon_*

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:21 AM

Don't stress, nodoubt. That shit's not good for you. It's worse then a bad diet.

#23 SuzanneHopes

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:44 AM

Hi Brandon... Now that I have blocked BENTKFELLER...my skin is CLEAR!!!!...
It is a MIRACLE I tell ya.!!!......talk to ya later...
I am off to buy some Donuts, Douche and Hershey Bars...Hahahahahaaa lol.gif

#24 HUMMMMMMMElectricHUMMMM

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 07:16 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 31 2004, 01:34 AM)
PS: Mel, you once made the claim that, "Acne is caused by deforestation." So decide -- is it caused by deforestation or bad diet (and you CAN'T cop out and say both)?

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Don't forget SULFUR. EVERY DAY. FOR TWENTY FOUR HOURS OKAY.

#25 HUMMMMMMMElectricHUMMMM

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 07:22 AM

QUOTE(nodoubt @ Dec 31 2004, 04:44 AM)
Hi Brandon... Now that I have blocked BENTKFELLER...my skin is CLEAR!!!!...
It is a MIRACLE I tell ya.!!!......talk to ya later...
I am off to buy some Donuts, Douche and Hershey Bars...Hahahahahaaa lol.gif

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and maybe some pizzamasturbation fun time is coming for you every minute.

Also be aware that to soil. I formed love for its nut/mother 5mall and in the morning later its father. Edge of the bell of the acne of the house of the cheese visited dermatologist asks, in order to correct the situation regarding its old reworked letter.


#26 Corvidae

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 08:04 AM

SteveBrown,

Of course I'll be the first to say that my experiences should not be the basis on which to judge others. Diet might very well affect some people's acne. It does not, however, affect mine. Period. This is not based just on this Christmas, but on ten years of having acne, trying various strategies, and making careful observations. I spent an entire year (that's one whoel year) on a diet that eliminated excessive fats and sugars once, which really didn't do anything for me. As for a proper study, well as far as I am aware, there have been some clinical studies on the link between diet and acne which have failed to find a link. Now, I can't comment on the details of these studies, so I'm not going to argue for them. I also have a PhD, in molecular biology. I carry out experiments all the time and use statistical analysis all the time, I also read and analyse scientific studies all the time. Honestly, I really do understand how this works. I'm not saying this because I want you to think that my opinion is now somehow worth more than yours, nor am I trying to say I have all the answers. I don't. I just want you to realise that I am more than qualified to establish a link between MY acne and diet if there was one. If diet affects YOUR acne, fine. Why would I argue? That would be foolish of me! I do think that some people, SOME not ALL, may think it is diet because they want a reason. I'm sometimes like that. When I get a new spot I will say 'ah yes, I got this spot because I did this...' and I will tell myself I won't do that again and all will be well. I hate the idea that spots can come up by themselves for no reason, that despite my best efforts they can appear. I hate not having any say and any control. I would love it if I could adjust my diet and have no acne, or even reduce my acne! Oh joy! But, alas, that is not for me. BUT, and please listen, I am perfectly willing to accept that some people find certain foods aggravate their acne, and that the foods in question may well vary from person to person. There, we all agree.

#27 SteveBrown

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 31 2004, 12:31 AM)
Big words for a small mind -- you used the word "denigrate" 3 times when something like "attack" could be the point across just as well.

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Yeah, I use the word "denigrate" again and again because that is exactly what you do to others on this message board, again and again. You don't like it? I don't give a damn. Since your small mind needs synonyms, here's a few. You ridicule, disparage, disrespect, deride, put down, and otherwise insult people on this message board for presenting ideas and opinions that run contrary to your moronic ideas and opinions.

Now that I've heard your excuse for stating the atmosphere is 5% oxygen, let me hear your excuse for assuming someone in Melbourne, Australia would state temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. Most of the world, including Canada, uses the Celsius scale, but of course you wouldn't know that.

I don't understand why your antics are tolerated here. What you do runs contrary to the purpose of this message board. This is NOT supposed to be Ben Kweller's sandbox. So why is it? I guess people kiss your behind because you're some kind of celebrity. I don't care if you're the future King of England, *EDITED BY MODERATOR*

#28 SteveBrown

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE(nodoubt @ Dec 31 2004, 03:00 AM)
Call me a douche, perhaps I am self righteous and 100% retarded too...

Cant take the all knowing, Angry, self righteous, close minded,
Most likely Hemmoroid riddled BentKfeller any longer...

He has been ultimately Silenced on my computer screen ...

For all of you "Simpletons" out there..You know who you are...
(as Bent would like to think, everyone BUT him..)

I will put it words you may possibly understand...soooo read slowlyyyy...
 
I HAVE.. B-L-O-C-K-E-D him....

ANYONE CARE TO JOIN ME...???


lol.gif <--looky, acne cleared due to less Ben stress..yah!

(It just may make him ...go INSANE!!!! wacko.gif
...hmmm..just a thought.)

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Good idea, nodoubt. Ah, peace. Happy New Year!

#29 Polka

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 12:29 PM

why the hell is everybody arguing? I go to emo there is one, I go here and the first thread I read is arguing.

Can people no longer debate without resorting to anger and bitterness?

#30 BenKweller

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:05 PM

"BENTKFELLER"

I didn't realize it was so hard for her to spell my name.

"Now that I've heard your excuse for stating the atmosphere is 5% oxygen, let me hear your excuse for assuming someone in Melbourne, Australia would state temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. Most of the world, including Canada, uses the Celsius scale, but of course you wouldn't know that."

Actually, I would know that since I've been in Europe and Australia more this year than in the US. I took his argument in Celsius and accidentally added my parts in Fahrenheit but I'm quite aware of the difference. Now, knowing that, feel free to go back to the old thread and *EDITED BY MODERATOR* see why my statements were not nullified.

"I don't understand why your antics are tolerated here. What you do runs contrary to the purpose of this message board. "

The purpose = to follow the stupid hysteria? I'm here because of (and appreciated because of) liking to find truth. I'm sorry if it runs contrary to your history of looking at my old messages for logistical flaws.

#31 Polka

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:09 PM

I like being ignored.... excl.gif wacko.gif

#32 SweetJade1980

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:47 PM

LOL, there ya have it. Two members, both with Ph.Ds and a difference in opinions. I can add that I've got a B.S in Biology, will start taking the neccessary classes so that I can become a Registered Dietician and if I fall madly in love with this field will probably skip the masters and get a Ph.D in nutrition, or clinical nutrition, or something along those lines. So, what's really good to know, and lets me know that I'm on the right track, is that I've run into a few other biologists, nutritionists, and even medical school students and usually they agree with both Doberwoman and myself!

Due to not everyone agreeing, this goes to show WHY people don't always trust the experts, specialists, and all doctors because...not everyone can know or WANTS to know everything. As such, if you go to an expert or specialist and they haven't kept up on the latest (some of this is decades old) research they are NOT likely to be of much help to you. This is why unfortunately, members of this board that may not have any degrees or careers in science or health can sometimes be much more knowledgable, than someone who "should" be. Personally, I wouldn't trust any of us. Listen to us, hear both sides of the issue, and if you WANT this BADLY enough, do your OWN research.

Although, I can say that while nothing is usually ever 100% effective for ALL people, the problem here is that some of these doctors, etc just aren't AWARE or perhaps open-minded. They are locked into focusing on the wrong aspect of diet and acne and as such have completely OVERLOOKED the connection. They are focusing on the right idea, but in the WRONG way. There's this study done back in 1996 (see below) that discusses how food affects our hormones (there's plenty of other older & recent studies) but this one is of particular interest to me because it differentiates between "food" and the results suggests WHAT foods to eat and NOT to eat, but I can't obtain the full text (at least electronically). =( Due to lacking differentiation among food composition (fiber, carbohydrates, starch, fats, etc) and food groups this IS why people can go on a "healthy", "no sugar", "low carb", vegetarian, or vegan diet and STILL have acne, because they are not avoiding (all of) the specific wrong foods (for them)! Of course, following one of the diets that most of us on this board or other acne boards do, isn't a guarantee either as, sometimes it can (also) be something entirely misc. like citrus or nuts. That's genetics for ya, and just because these foods don't give you acne, it doesn't mean that these SAME foods aren't (slowly) contributing to giving you Diabetes Type II, Obesity, certain Cancers, Heart Disease, or other health problems or hormonal disorders.

Like our male Ph.D said, if he could do it with food, he would've but he couldn't find the connection for himself. Well if I could've done it with a pill I would've but it wasn't effective enough. Actually I think that we may both be a bit wrong because there are other more specific diets that he may not have tried and I could've taken 30 pills of supplements or upped the dosage of my prescriptions or tried accutane. Corvidea, do you mind if I ask what exactly was an " excessive fats and sugars" diet to you? Regarding myself, sure perhaps had I continued the Birth Control, taken 300mg of Spironolactone (as 200mg for 6 years wasn't enough), AND 6 - 8mg of Avandia (as 2mg wasn't enough), I could have done it! Yet I don't want to be THAT drugged up so I'm quite thankful that I started participating in these boards almost 3 years ago, as it was members willing to "fight", debate, discuss, & research, similar to a percentage of this board, that GREATLY helped me out =)

Obviously you have to understand what these abstracts are discussing, but I didn't understand all of this stuff myself 3 years ago, but I wanted it badly enough that I kept researching, even after I had tried the diet and found that it worked for me. Yet, I still didn't fully understand HOW it could work, even though it was working above my guarded expectations, but I have a much greater understanding now:

QUOTE
Am J Clin Nutr. 1996 Jan;63(1):22-31. Related Articles, Links 


Association of dietary factors and selected plasma variables with sex hormone-binding globulin in rural Chinese women.

Gates JR, Parpia B, Campbell TC, Junshi C.

Division of Nutritional Sciences, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853-4401, USA.

Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) is an important regulator of plasma sex steroids as well as a sensitive indicator of insulin resistance. SHBG may be an important diagnostic measure of risk for pathologies associated with insulin resistance syndrome (IRS) such as non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM), obesity, hypertension, dyslipidemia, and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. In women, SHBG is also implicated in diverse pathologies such as cancers of steroid-sensitive tissues and hirsutism. Data from an ongoing ecological study linking diet and health in rural China were analyzed to determine the relation of selected plasma variables and diet to plasma concentrations of SHBG. All data represent county mean values, pooled by age and sex, to assess the relation between biochemical and lifestyle characteristics and disease-specific mortality rates at the county level. The study sample consisted of 3250 Chinese women between the ages of 35 and 64 y living in 65 widely dispersed rural counties. Consumption patterns for 21 different food groups were derived from a food-frequency questionnaire and a 3-d dietary survey and subsequently compared. Correlation analyses of county mean values demonstrated a significant association between SHBG and insulin, testosterone, triacylglycerols, body mass index, age at menarche, and several foods. In regression analyses, after adjustments, the strongest predictors of SHBG concentrations were the dietary intake of rice (beta = 0.42, P < 0.01), fish (beta = 0.34, P < 0.05), millet (beta = -0.27, P < 0.01), and wheat (beta = -0.34, P < 0.01). When insulin, testosterone, and triacylglycerols were added to the model only triacylglycerols (beta = -0.26, P < 0.05) remained a significant independent predictor of SHBG. Additional analyses suggested that the consumption of green vegetables was modestly positively correlated with SHBG and negatively with insulin values. Consumption of rice and fish in particular appeared to favorably influence the principle plasma variables associated with a reduction in the risk for IRS pathologies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8604665


Perhaps this will be an easier read of the above for some of you:
Cornell-China study suggests rice-based diet
http://www.news.corn....wheat.ssl.html



QUOTE
Am J Clin Nutr. 1996 Dec;64(6):850-5. Related Articles, Links 


Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study.

Dorgan JF, Judd JT, Longcope C, Brown C, Schatzkin A, Clevidence BA, Campbell WS, Nair PP, Franz C, Kahle L, Taylor PR.

Division of Cancer Prevention and Control, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD 20892-7326, USA. dorganj@dcpcepn.nci.nih.gov

We conducted a controlled feeding study to evaluate the effects of fat and fiber consumption on plasma and urine sex hormones in men. The study had a crossover design and included 43 healthy men aged 19-56 y. Men were initially randomly assigned to either a low-fat, high-fiber or high-fat, low-fiber diet for 10 wk and after a 2-wk washout period crossed over to the other diet. The energy content of diets was varied to maintain constant body weight but averaged approximately 13.3 MJ (3170 kcal)/d on both diets. The low-fat diet provided 18.8% of energy from fat with a ratio of polyunsaturated to saturated fat (P:S) of 1.3, whereas the high-fat diet provided 41.0% of energy from fat with a P:S of 0.6. Total dietary fiber consumption from the low- and high-fat diets averaged 4.6 and 2.0 g.MJ-1.d-1, respectively. Mean plasma concentrations of total and sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG)-bound testosterone were 13% and 15% higher, respectively, on the high-fat, low-fiber diet and the difference from the low-fat, high-fiber diet was significant for the SHBG-bound fraction (P = 0.04). Men's daily urinary excretion of testosterone also was 13% higher with the high-fat, low-fiber diet than with the low-fat, high-fiber diet (P = 0.01). Conversely, their urinary excretion of estradiol and estrone and their 2-hydroxy metabolites were 12-28% lower with the high-fat, low-fiber diet (P < or = 0.01). Results of this study suggest that diet may alter endogenous sex hormone metabolism in men.  http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8942407


I will say that males are more complicated than females when we look at changes in androgen production. Middle-aged males go through something similar to menopause (less estrogen more androgens) in women, known as Andropause (less androgens more estrogen) and as such when you start looking at studies with males in their 30s or older, its' a bit conflicting. Although usually what stays the same is that the SHBG levels will increase, and usually more than the observed increases for Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, etc. However none of these have been done on middle-aged males with acne, so whether those studies would be conflicting or just as you will find with women and younger males, I haven't come across an idea. Yet when we look at PSA levels the same diets that others of us follow here, does what it needs to in terms of lowering PSA, androgens, etc, so perhaps if there is a major chronic hormonal disorder in older males, the same rules do apply. Anyone know?

QUOTE
Nutr Cancer. 1998;31(2):127-31. Related Articles, Links 


Effects of diet and exercise on insulin, sex hormone-binding globulin, and prostate-specific antigen.

Tymchuk CN, Tessler SB, Aronson WJ, Barnard RJ.

Department of Physiological Science, School of Medicine, University of California, Los Angeles 90095-1527, USA.

A diet high in fat has been linked to prostate cancer, possibly through an influence on hormones. Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) binds androgens and is regulated in part by insulin. Diet and exercise can modify insulin levels, potentially affecting SHBG and the biologically available levels of androgens. To determine the effects of a low-fat (< 10% of calories), high-fiber diet plus daily exercise on insulin, SHBG, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), and serum lipids, we measured the levels of these factors in the serum of 27 obese men undergoing a three-week diet-and-exercise program. Insulin decreased from 222 +/- 30 to 126 +/- 21 pmol/l (p < 0.01), and SHBG increased from 18 +/- 2 to 25 +/- 3 nmol/l (p < 0.01). Body mass index decreased from 35 +/- 1.9 to 33.4 +/- 1.8 kg/m2 (p < 0.01). PSA levels were normal and did not change significantly, although in a small subset of men (n = 3) with slightly elevated PSA levels (> 2.5 ng/ml) all showed a decrease. The three-week diet-and-exercise intervention decreased insulin and lipid levels while increasing SHBG. The increase in SHBG would result in more testosterone being bound and, therefore, less of the androgen available to act on the prostate. The decrease in insulin might also decrease mitogenic activity in the prostate. The diet-and-exercise regimen did not have a significant impact on normal PSA levels. Although modest, these changes may be protective against the development of prostate cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9770724


QUOTE
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Jul;80(7):2057-62. Related Articles, Links 

Effects of diet and metformin administration on sex hormone-binding globulin, androgens, and insulin in hirsute and obese women.

Crave JC, Fimbel S, Lejeune H, Cugnardey N, Dechaud H, Pugeat M.

Hospices Civils de Lyon, Laboratoire de la Clinique Endocrinologique, Hopital de l'Antiquaille, France.

Evidence suggests that hyperinsulinemic insulin resistance may increase serum levels of ovarian androgens and reduce sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels in humans. The present study was conducted to assess the effect of administration of the biguanide metformin, a drug commonly used in the treatment of diabetes mellitus, on androgen and insulin levels in 24 hirsute patients. The patients selected for the study were obese, with a body mass index higher than 25 kg/m2 and high fasting insulin (> 90 pmol/L) and low SHBG levels (< 30 nmol/L). All patients were given a low calorie diet (1500 Cal/day) and randomized for either metformin administration at a dose of 850 mg or a placebo, twice daily for 4 months, in a double blind study. In the placebo group, diet resulted in a significant decrease in body mass index (30.8 +/- 1.0 vs. 32.7 +/- 1.5 kg/m2; P < 0.0001), fasting insulin (127 +/- 11 vs. 156 +/- 14 pmol/L; P < 0.01), non-SHBG-bound testosterone [Free Testosterone](0.19 +/- 0.02 vs. 0.28 +/- 0.03 nmol/L; P < 0.02), androstenedione (5.8 +/- 0.5 vs. 9.0 +/- 1.1 nmol/L; P < 0.03), and 3 alpha-diolglucuronide [3-alpha diol G](8.6 +/- 1.1 vs. 11.7 +/- 1.9; P < 0.005) plasma concentrations and a significant increase in the glucose/insulin ratio (0.047 +/- 0.005 vs. 0.035 +/- 0.003; P < 0.001) and plasma concentrations of SHBG (26.0 +/- 3.3 vs. 19.1 +/- 1.9 nmol/L; P < 0.001) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate [DHEA-S](8.7 +/- 1.5 vs. 8.4 +/- 1.3; P < 0.05). Beneficial effects of diet were not significantly different in the patients who were given metformin instead of placebo. These results confirm that weight loss induced by a low calorie diet is effective in improving hyperinsulinemia and hyperandrogenism in obese and hirsute women. With our study design, metformin administration had no additional benefit over the effect of diet. http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=7608255


I'm a big fan of recent studies, but these were rather shocking for me to come across as they are from almost 10 years ago (they go back further). I would've been 14 - 15 years old at the time these were published and if I had KNOWN, I would have avoided wheat, saturated fats, trans fats etc back then instead of having to wait untl 2.5 years ago for such information as it would have made a BIG difference in my life and how I developed. Oh, in case anyone here doesn't know, the above study mentions what I was diagnosed as 3.5 years ago. I'm actually atypical for both Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) & Insulin Resistance Syndrome (IR) as I don't carry any of the "classic signs" (ex: you do NOT have to be obese or overweight), yet I do still carry traits for both of these and as such there's actually a PCOS variant known as HAIR-AN Syndrome (Hyperandrogenism, Insulin Resistance, Acanthosis Nigricans) that both men & woman can have and that would explain my signs & symptoms the best.

Now, for those unaware, those words in bold are basically what you want to look for in an ANY acne treatment if your goal is to reduce/inhibit androgens. Like the first study showed, SHBG is now the new indicator (over IGF-1) for insulin resistance & hyperandrogenism. SHBG can be raised several ways, such as exercising, but more significant increases can be found by using Thyroxine, Estrogen, or Insulin Sensitizing drugs or supplements, aside from appropriately changing your diet. If your SHBG is low, you probably have Hyperinsulinemia (or Hypothyroidism) induced Hyperandrogenism as SHBG is lowered by increased Insulin and it's job is to bind Free Testosterone/Androgen. DHEA-S is a bound form of adrenal androgen DHEA (making it less potent), 3-alpha diol G is the product of DHT (Accutane inhibits this also), Androstendione, and Free Testosterone (convertes to DHT) are all androgens. The super androgen DHT can be the end result of all of these and is implicated in sebum production, acne, hirsutism, androgenic alopecia and interstingly enough certain retinoids that some of you may have used, like RetinA & Accutane, inhibit the enzymes neccessary for it's formation.

That study above describes exactly what happened to me and Teplo, and perhaps a few others around here, when I stopped my medication. For 1 year I had been taking Avandia (metaformin made me sick) and 150mg of Spironolcatone, but was only a max of 85% clear (for 3 months of the year). Yet when I initially changed my diet, I went up to a CONSTANT 95% clear! Over time, I permanently dropped avandia (after 3 months into my diet) and even dropped the spiro for 6 months (started back on at 100mg for hirsutism treatment) to make sure that it wasn't my medication (like it actually took 6 years of Spiro before it FINALLY fully kicked in,,,LOL). Now, 2.5 years later, I'm 99%+ clear and this includes my face, back, chest, neck, ears (I can breakout in lots of...places), I've got the smallest pores since I hit puberty, have a lot less oil & dandruff, a bit less body hair (a lot less with Spiro) and I no longer suffer from horrible menstrual cramps! Trust me, I have not grown out of it, this is not some placebo-nocebo, as I can still breakout if I eat the "wrong" foods for me, but I usually don't intentionally do this as most of the time I'll end up with very stubborn cystic acne as a result =/ So of course, I do my very best NOT to =)

I KNOW someone is going to mention the fact that I just posted "a ton of studies", but how can you understand anything, unless you at least try to read the books, the studies, etc? Unfortunately some people here don't believe it's worth the effort. Corvidae and anyone else, I have tried so hard to help and make it "simpler' and I just wish that more people were research minded or at least OPEN to trying to understand where the connections are. There was a member here that would debate with me over this and I really enjoyed our "discussions" as he would put the time & energy and research into trying to show me that I was wrong, but ended up realizing that I was right =) Granted I learned things from him too, but regarding this, he was trying to figure out how I could say what I said and would read the articles and nit pick but finally, he spoke to one of several doctor friends, that said "yes, this IS possible!"

Corvidae, my goal isn't to convert you or anyone else, but if you want to, I would love for us to try and have intelligent discussions about this. Certainly you must have come across articles such as the above. I've found studies under diet & acne, food & acne (lesser degree), SHBG & Free Testosterone, SHBG & acne, Acne & Free Testosterone, fats & SHBG, Insulin & SHBG, Acne & LDL, Insulin & LDL, IGF-1 - LDL, IGF-1 - pro-inflammatory cytokines, etc etc etc. I'm wondering why you or perhaps someone else would discount them as being connected somehow to the development of acne. Whatever you tell me, if it goes over my head, I'll research it, because understanding this and all the different (natural) ways & treatments that can help acne sufferers, is important to me.

Thanks for listening

#33 bryan

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:19 PM

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Dec 31 2004, 02:47 PM)
The super androgen DHT can be the end result of all of these and is implicated in sebum production, acne, hirsutism, androgenic alopecia and interstingly enough certain retinoids that some of you may have used, like RetinA & Accutane, inhibit the enzymes neccessary for it's formation. 

I KNOW some one is going to mention the fact that I just posted "a ton of studies", but how can you understand anything, unless you at least try to read the books, the studies, etc?

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Speaking of studies, SweetJade, what do you think of the very recent one which found no effect on acne by the potent systemic 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor MK386? I've cited that study in full and discussed it in at least a couple of other threads. What do you make of it?

Bryan

#34 SweetJade1980

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:53 PM

QUOTE(bryan @ Dec 31 2004, 05:19 PM)
Speaking of studies, SweetJade, what do you think of the very recent one which found no effect on acne by the potent systemic 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor MK386?  I've cited that study in full and discussed it in at least a couple of other threads.  What do you make of it?

Bryan

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Well based on what I've read and personally experienced, DHT may not be the biggest factor. I say that with hesitancy and only because I still produce enough DHT that if I don't take Spironolactone my hirsutism will worsen. Yet myself, and others, don't need to take Spiro to STOP our acne. Dietary changes, and certain other drugs or supplements do not block the androgen receptor or inhibit 5-alpha reductase enzyme. While they may reduce our Total Testosterone and/or Free Testosterone, thus reducing the amount of DHT that CAN be produced, they don't stop it's production (unless you take a very large dose maybe).

On the other the hand, I'm also curious to know what is most important in the production of acne, since we can't fix the sensitive or defective androgen or retinoid receptors, is it Androgens or Inflammatory products? The dietary changes that we follow are not just anti-androgenic, but also anti-inflammatory, and anti-proliferative as well. I've found a few conflicting studies that support that androgens can increase lipid levels, that lipid levels can increase androgens, and that androgen can decrease lipid levels. So I don't know what to think about that, but when it comes to sebum production & inflammation, certain variables arise such as higher triglycerides, LDL, DGAT 1, IGF-1, Arachidonic Acid, Pro-inflammatory Cytokines (IL-6, IL-1), & Pro-inflammatory prostaglandins (PGE2).

Oh and the Diacylglycerol Acyltransferase 1 (DGAT 1) is a new one I just learned this week thanks to Paracelsus from healthboards: http://www.healthboa...ad.php?t=232653 There were a few articles that I came across that mentioned not just IGF-1 being increased to initiate growth, but also Peroxisome Proliferator-Activated Receptor cells are also upregulated in acneic patients. In fact, PPARs has some sort of connection with DGAT1, but I'm going to have to keep re-reading this one article. ;-) All I know is that in an Insulin Resistant state, for example, DGAT1 is increased and if you can safely inhibit DGAT1, sebeacous gland growth & sebum production will decrease/cease DESPITE the introduction of androgens!

Now how HOT is that? cool.gif

#35 SweetJade1980

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 09:58 AM

Bryan,
After a bit of reading, I'm still not certain about PPAR and DGAT as there are several forms of each of these, but I know that upregulation of PPARalpha will usually increase DGAT1 and decrease DGAT2 (ex: fish oil, niacin). Yet with mice, we want to decrease DGAT1 and as such increase DGAT2. They don't give much of a reason for wanting to decrease DGAT1 except that it (in leptin deficient mice) affects the functioning of sebeceous gland growth & sebum production to the point where it's almost non-functioning. Yet with DGAT2 defficient mice, they die after a certain period of time, possibly due to having a weaker immune system from the lack of DGAT2 (found in skin & hair). So don't know about that but have had more time to think about DHT.

I'm wondering if the presence of DHT or more specifically it's metabolite, 3-alpha diol G (this is supposed to be a better indicator of DHT), may function as an indicator. Similarly, to the way PSA levels for men & women help show androgen activity, perhaps 3-alpha diol G, is also just another way to show the level of androgen receptor activity in those that are hyperandrogenic or just sensitive to normal levels of androgens. Thus, that may be why myself and others can still produce neccessary amounts of DHT for hirsutism & androgenic alopeicia, and yet still not get acne.

When you consider that antibitotics are the other option, if not androgen antagonists, it leans toward the possibility that controlling inflammation may be more important. Since the presecence of androgens calls forth, IGF-1, which calls forth the presence of inflammatory products, this may be why anti-androgens usuallly do work. Except I've also read that IGF-1 can call forth androgens, but either way, the other inflammatory events will probably still occur as it's the presence of IGF-1 that activated their role in the process of acne development.

There's A LOT that I still don't get and obvioulsy neither does the rest of the science community, but I did find these articles discussing PPARs and basically it says that there's three types: PPAR-alpha, PPAR-beta/delta, and PPAR-gamma. According to one studies, done back in the 1998 each one of the above has a role in the amount of lipid-forming colonies:

PPAR-beta/delta - 95%
PPARgamma - 66%
PPARalpha - 20%

PPARgamma + DHT = 70%
DHT = 25%
Control = 11%
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9557223


So based on that it looks like you really want to get the beta/delta as it's also implicated in athersclerosis, yet it's the least understood of them. However, another study in 2004 showed that upregulation of PPARgamma & PPARalpha could actually inhibit lipid production so this is one full text I need to grab a copy of: http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15491415

Furthermore, in a 2003 study PPARs were also implicated in keritinoxyte formation. Since it's not just about cell hyperproliferation but also hyperkeritinzation thats leads us to the theory of developing clogged pores in the formation of acne, it's interesting to note that again PPAR-alpha and PPAR-gamma are less involved than PPAR-beta/delta and is better explained by reading this:

QUOTE
Br J Dermatol. 2003 Aug;149(2):229-36. Related Articles, Links 

 
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors in cutaneous biology.

Kuenzli S, Saurat JH.

Department of Dermatology, University Hospital, Geneva, Switzerland. stephanie.kuenzli@medecine.unige.ch

Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) are ligand-activated transcription factors that regulate the expression of target genes involved in many cellular functions including cell proliferation, differentiation and immune/inflammation response. The PPAR subfamily consists of three isotypes: PPAR alpha, PPAR beta/delta and PPAR gamma, which have all been identified in keratinocytes. PPAR beta/delta is the predominant subtype in human keratinocytes, whereas PPAR alpha and PPAR gamma are expressed at much lower levels and increase significantly upon keratinocyte differentiation. PPAR beta/delta is not linked to differentiation, but is significantly upregulated upon various conditions that result in keratinocyte proliferation, and during skin wound healing. In vitro and in vivo evidence suggests that PPARs appear to play an important role in skin barrier permeability, inhibiting epidermal cell growth, promoting epidermal terminal differentiation and regulating skin inflammatory response by diverse mechanisms. These proprieties are pointing in the direction of PPARs being key regulators of skin conditions characterized by hyperproliferation, inflammatory infiltrates and aberrant differentiation such as psoriasis, but may also have clinical implications in inflammatory skin disease (e.g. atopic dermatitis), proliferative skin disease, wound healing, acne and protease inhibitor associated lipodystrophia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12932225


After I found these, I found another article (2003), as I was wondering if Accutane played some role here as well since it does inhibit IGF-1. Of course accutane also has the ability to increase insulin resistance and as such one can develop a hyperlipidic state while on it. So I haven't yet found any studies that discuss accutane (or it's other names) & DGAT or PPAR. Now this article though, further defines the roles of PPARs:

QUOTE
PPAR alpha is a key regulator of fatty acid beta-oxidation, participates in development of inflammatory reaction and atherosclerosis formation. Main effects of fibrates are mediated through PPAR alpha activation. PPAR gamma plays important role in lipid metabolism, processes of cell differentiation and growth, participates in glucose utilization and mechanisms of insulin resistance. http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14671562


It goes on to say again, they know that PPAR-beta/delta has role but they don't specifically know what and further studies suggest that it increases athersclorisis, obesity and other aspects of metabolic syndrome. Whereas, PPAR-gamma inhibits these aspects of metabolic syndrome and as such PPAR-gamma agonists are being used to treat associated conditions. So this is definately something new that I get to keep reading up on, but it's these little differencs in the presence of androgens that probably determine whether one will end up with hirsutism, acne, seborrhea, etc as there's obviously a "little" twist in the pathways for each of these.

Thoughts? Further Clarifications?

#36 Guest_OnlyJoe_*

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 05:00 PM

i almost read that... then decided not to.

#37 SteveBrown

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 02:12 AM

BenKweller, it's too late to go back to debating ideas, because you've already poisoned the air in which rational debate occurs, by issuing your pseudo-clever insults. It's isn't just me you've done this with. I've witnessed your personal attacks on others for several weeks now, and now you've met me head-on, and as you can see, I have zero tolerance for your ego games.

You recently had an exchange with a very intelligent and knowledgeable poster who has a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering, in which your attitude toward her was clearly disdainful. There is no need for me to speak in her defense, because she handled herself quite well, showing your arguments to be nothing more than the usual inane personal attacks. What she has is intellect, but all you have is a childish ego which seeks gratification by spewing verbal abuse. I know it must be hard for you, but if you can't behave like a grownup, at least have the decency to try to act like one.

The days of your ego games on www.acne.org are swiftly coming to an end. That is one of my resolutions for 2005.

#38 The Jack

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 09:41 AM

Steve,
You seem like a reasonably bright guy, and so I find myself a little mystified by how hot you’re getting about Ben. I have read a lot of Ben’s posts, and he is often rude - which can be offensive - but it isn’t a big deal. Furthermore, I don’t think you show much foresight when you mention that you’re going to see Benji removed from Acne.org, Ben will be posting at Acne.org long after you and I tire of it and take up our next hobbies. Have you seen how many posts that guy has made? He is an institution here, and he spices things up. I must confess, I sometimes look up his posts to have laugh, or to kill office boredom.
Unless I am mistaken, you can block Ben’s posts and make them invisible or blank on your computer screen. My guess is you probably don’t want to do that, and if you ask yourself why, you might find that it is because BenK has engaged your attentions. That you are now seeking him out, to engage in a contest of will. Has BenK given your life greater meaning? Do you owe him your thanks?

HUMMMMMMMElectricHUMMM,
“and maybe some pizzamasturbation fun time is coming for you every minute.�
This excellent phrase caused me to spill herbal tea on my desk.

#39 SteveBrown

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 02:18 PM

QUOTE(The Jack @ Jan 4 2005, 07:41 AM)
Unless I am mistaken, you can block Ben’s posts and make them invisible or blank on your computer screen. My guess is you probably don’t want to do that, and if you ask yourself why, you might find that it is because BenK has engaged your attentions. That you are now seeking him out, to engage in a contest of will. Has BenK given your life greater meaning? Do you owe him your thanks?
“and maybe some pizzamasturbation fun time is coming for you every minute.�
This excellent phrase caused me to spill herbal tea on my desk.

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The problem I have with blocking offensive posts is, they appear to everyone else to go unanswered and unchallenged. The offending poster gets to post his insults with impunity, and that is unacceptable.

Has BenK given my life greater meaning? Do I owe him thanks? Absolutely not. He is an annoyance, not just to me but to others, and all I am doing is trying to get the moderator to enforce Rule #5. Failing that, I may stop posting here, because I've got better things to do with my time than subject myself to insults for trying to help people afflicted by acne.

#40 SteveBrown

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE(Corvidae @ Dec 31 2004, 06:04 AM)
I spent an entire year (that's one whoel year) on a diet that eliminated excessive fats and sugars once, which really didn't do anything for me.

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Corvidae,

When I was a teenager, the conventional wisdom was that an aggravating factor of acne was a diet including excessive amounts of sweets and "greasy" or fried foods. However, from my experience, and from knowledge gained from research on nutrition, it appears that certain fats are actually beneficial, because they supply calories and reduce the craving for carbohydrates. It appears to be a gross oversimplification to say that "fat makes you fat" or that "greasy food causes oily skin." I have found nuts, such as cashews and walnuts, which have high oil and protein content, olive oil, and salmon, which is high in omega-3 oil, to be foods that help prevent acne, apparently because they reduce my appetite for carbohydrates, particularly sweets, which I believe are the main culprit in acne, as far as it affects me. So, you might try a diet that eliminates excess sugar, without cutting down on fats, and see if that helps.