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#1 Green_Vegetable_Man

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 09:22 AM

Doctors know much more than we do and we must listen to the good caring and considerate ones among them.

Some are very helpful and spend time to listen to us. Some do not care.

May God give me Wisdom to live without fear, or depression. To do what I think is right and to show consideration and love to others this Christmas and Coming new year 2005.

May God bless you All.


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#2 duluxdog

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 09:37 AM

"God is dead" -Nietzsche


;(

#3 BenKweller

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 10:06 PM

Another pointless thread by Melbourne... didn't you say you were gonna leave like a month ago?

#4 SuzanneHopes

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 11:37 PM

biggrin.gif MERRY CHRISTMAS MB....
by the way...is BK ...your evil brother? eusa_think.gif

#5 SuzanneHopes

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 11:38 PM

Sorry ..double post...

#6 Pika

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Posted 24 December 2004 - 11:39 PM

doctors are dumbshits, most people on these forums are more knowledgable than most if not all doctors they will ever encouter
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#7 BenKweller

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 12:39 AM

Are you a doctor, Pika?

#8 bryan

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE(duluxdog @ Dec 24 2004, 10:37 AM)
"God is dead" -Nietzsche

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"Nietzsche is dead" -God


#9 SuzanneHopes

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 05:34 PM

I totally AGREE with Pika's view on doctors ... smile.gif

byran - eusa_clap.gif

#10 BenKweller

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 06:31 PM

If a close family member has a heart attack, promise you won't call those "dumbshit doctors?"

Didn't think so. Hypocrite.

#11 Guest_OnlyJoe_*

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 08:47 PM

QUOTE(Pika @ Dec 25 2004, 05:39 AM)
doctors are dumbshits, most people on these forums are more knowledgable than most if not all doctors they will ever encouter

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What a load of BS, why dont you go through everything it takes to become a doctor and then see if you know more than you do now. rolleyes.gif

#12 Cali90

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 09:52 PM

I have been quiet on this forum for a while about BenK. In fact, I rarely post. But I must address him, because it's much overdue.

BenK--I say this in the nicest way. Please stop posting if it is only mean spirited and has ABSOLUTELY no backing behind it.

Points to address:

1) Diet has a role in every disease. The reason we have acne is because of our bad diets. While bad diets contribute to acne, good diets won't cure acne. Think of it like a car. If you put good fuel in it, it will run smoothly. If you put bad fuel in it for such a long time, it will break down. After it starts to break down, if you start feeding it good fuel again, that will not fix the problem. To fix the problem, you need to replace or repair it, which is the equivalent of cleansing the body.
a) The reason we have acne is because our skin is our secondary elimination organ. When we clog up our primary elimination organs--the colon and liver (and kidneys as well i believe), it must come out through secondary methods---acne.

2) Doctors know very little. Most of their education is given by pharmaceutical companies on how to prescribe drugs. Doctors study under 2 weeks of nutrition in medical school. Furthermore, dermatologists almost exclusively study on acne on how to prescribe drugs. They know nothing about acne. Not how it is caused. They only claim to try to treat the external symptoms. And they are a failure at that. While doctors may be able to save your life in the long run by surgery, again they are only treating the symptoms and putting the disease off. If I was in a life-death situation, I would be grateful for doctors. But don't trust them. They are the number 3 leading cause of death in America (http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm)

3) I recommend everybody read an amazing book that helped control my acne and I am on the road to total recovery. The Body Ecology Diet by Donna Gates. Go to a Barnes & Noble or Borders and at least look at it. Read through it a couple times. I realized I needed to purchase it and still I re-read it many times and learn new information. The information on cultured vegetables alone is amazing. I also follow a form of Leo Kiesen's E-Book which is a basically diet principles, supplements, colon/parasite/liver cleansing.

BTW, Ben. Here is a medical doctor: http://www.raysahelian.com/acne.html

4) For those who say that acne is caused by hormones. Yes, the two causes of acne are: 1) Unbalanced hormones 2) toxicity of blood and lymph fluids. Unbalanaced hormones come from bad intestines (bowels). A unhealthy liver makes unhealthy blood and lymph fluids. A bowel and liver cleanse are very effective for corecting the causes.

#13 BenKweller

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 04:56 PM

I have been quiet on this forum for a while about Cali. In fact, I rarely post. But I must address her, because it's much overdue.

Cali--I say this in the nicest way. Please stop posting if it is only mean spirited and has ABSOLUTELY no backing behind it. I mean honestly -- your post clarifies what I think is wrong with people and their belief that they can cure themselves by blaming others and then saying the institution contributes to their problems. If you think acne is caused by diet, you should hate yourself for fucking up your body as badly as you have. Shame on you. You're a terrible person for eating like that.

Now let's address actual facts:

"Diet has a role in every disease. The reason we have acne is because of our bad diets."

Diet plays a role in many diseases but acne isn't one of them. Your blanket statement, unfortunately, made me view the rest of your post as if you had a mental deficiency since your greatest source of knowledge seems to be a book by a hack. Don't believe me? Let's look at the doctor you refer to as an MD; let's review Dr. Sahelian's amazing training (and let's ignore that he's the author of such respected books as "Natural Sex Boosters"):

"Ray Sahelian, M.D., obtained a Bachelors of Science degree in nutrition from Drexel University and completed his doctoral training at Thomas Jefferson Medical School, both in Philadelphia. He is certified by the American Board of Family Practice."

Wow -- that's scholarship if I've ever seen it (along with the great picture of him with a steth. on his webpage). I like how that's about the only mention of anything about him training while many respected doctors take part in much more than that and natural-viagra conferences (as he does).

And yes, Donna Gates, too, is a hack that just wants to sell a book. She's officially listed as a "nutritional consultant" and even that requires no certification. I wonder if she even took a class on digestion before writing her toliet paper-worthy book

"For those who say that acne is caused by hormones. Yes, the two causes of acne are: 1) Unbalanced hormones 2) toxicity of blood and lymph fluids. Unbalanaced hormones come from bad intestines (bowels). A unhealthy liver makes unhealthy blood and lymph fluids. A bowel and liver cleanse are very effective for corecting the causes."

You're right on #1 but you clearly show that you're a CureZone.com clone with point #2. I've heard people give your arguments time and time again and don't want to even start addressing the testimony of actual doctors who know more than what they see on the internet to disprove it. Now on to your loathing of doctors...

Doctors, if you pick good ones, know a lot. The argument of idiots like you who say their biggest influence is from pharmaceutical companies is flawed by the fact that any good doctor will never prescribe a drug that they know doesn't work well or that is dangerous (in other words -- just because you hear bad stories on FoxNews doesn't make it true). Dermatologists know a lot about how acne is caused but the problem is that acne is so common but with such varying causes that they can't devote all of their time studying the hundreds of possible causes when they could try prescribing what works for many. Sorry but your conspiracy theories don't work (though I challenge you to find the cure for acne in pill form since you claim it to be so simple).

"If I was in a life-death situation, I would be grateful for doctors. But don't trust them. "

Hypocrite. Next time a loved one has a heart attack (which has happened in my family this year), leave them on the floor and help them through a liverflush. Then report back on how it worked.

Doctors are the 3rd cause of death in America? Mercola is a sham, too, but don't take my word for it-- let's see what the CDC believes (though I bet they're just part of the conspiracy, too, right, Deepthroat?): http://www.cdc.gov/n..._causes2000.htm

Thanks for a laughable post to read as I get ready to go home after the holidays. I always appreciate the spread of good intentions but your ability to be self-righteous is a sad attempt at being knowledgeable.

#14 Cali90

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 09:25 PM

First of all, I am a "he" not a she. Second, why are you on the offensive. Can't we have a logical debate on this? If you believe in doctors so much, why do you come to this holistic board? Have dermatologists cured your acne? I don't think dermatologists have cured anyone's acne to date. And no I don't believe there is a pill you can take that can cure any disease. It's quite a process to treat disease. Cure is a strong word. Anyway why would you say I am fucking up my body by eating good. I think even doctors agree that eating good is good. Or am I wrong? For the doctor I mentioned...I don't even know him. I just used a link because I know you love the letters "MD". Donna Gates and Jim Mercola aren't hacks. They have helped so many people in disease. Give me a doctor who knows half as much as them and I'll shut up. But the thing is that doctors don't even study nutrition in school. BenK. Address this question. Do you actually think that something you put in your body doesn't effect how you function? I think you would agree that if you put drugs in your body, that they will effect disease? Right? Well a drugs is "any substance other than food that affects the way your mind and body work". Food affects the way your mind and body work. C'mon now. If the only arguement you have is that the doctor I listed is not credible than that's a pretty weak arguement. Now about the study of diet and acne having no correlation. Let's examine the study (http://www.nealhendr...31100puacne.htm). He examines the study in the above link. Is McDougall a hack as well? If he is, then it seems all these health hacks must really be wasting their lives, aren't they? I mean what kind of a life is it to help people who have been told by doctors that there is nothing they can do for them. What kind of proof do you want?

Even doctor Fulton says himself (http://my.webmd.com/...le/1/1707_50068)
"You also need balanced diet with fresh fruits and vegetables. If you're just having empty calories like French fries, it's a stress."

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 27 2004, 02:56 PM)
I have been quiet on this forum for a while about Cali. In fact, I rarely post. But I must address her, because it's much overdue.

Cali--I say this in the nicest way. Please stop posting if it is only mean spirited and has ABSOLUTELY no backing behind it. I mean honestly -- your post clarifies what I think is wrong with people and their belief that they can cure themselves by blaming others and then saying the institution contributes to their problems. If you think acne is caused by diet, you should hate yourself for fucking up your body as badly as you have. Shame on you. You're a terrible person for eating like that.

Now let's address actual facts:

"Diet has a role in every disease. The reason we have acne is because of our bad diets."

Diet plays a role in many diseases but acne isn't one of them. Your blanket statement, unfortunately, made me view the rest of your post as if you had a mental deficiency since your greatest source of knowledge seems to be a book by a hack. Don't believe me? Let's look at the doctor you refer to as an MD; let's review Dr. Sahelian's amazing training (and let's ignore that he's the author of such respected books as "Natural Sex Boosters"):

"Ray  Sahelian, M.D., obtained a Bachelors of Science degree in nutrition from Drexel University and completed his doctoral training at Thomas Jefferson Medical School, both in Philadelphia. He is certified by the American Board of Family Practice."

Wow -- that's scholarship if I've ever seen it (along with the great picture of him with a steth. on his webpage). I like how that's about the only mention of anything about him training while many respected doctors take part in much more than that and natural-viagra conferences (as he does).

And yes, Donna Gates, too, is a hack that just wants to sell a book. She's officially listed as a "nutritional consultant" and even that requires no certification. I wonder if she even took a class on digestion before writing her toliet paper-worthy book

"For those who say that acne is caused by hormones. Yes, the two causes of acne are: 1) Unbalanced hormones 2) toxicity of blood and lymph fluids. Unbalanaced hormones come from bad intestines (bowels). A unhealthy liver makes unhealthy blood and lymph fluids. A bowel and liver cleanse are very effective for corecting the causes."

You're right on #1 but you clearly show that you're a CureZone.com clone with point #2. I've heard people give your arguments time and time again and don't want to even start addressing the testimony of actual doctors who know more than what they see on the internet to disprove it. Now on to your loathing of doctors...

Doctors, if you pick good ones, know a lot. The argument of idiots like you who say their biggest influence is from pharmaceutical companies is flawed by the fact that any good doctor will never prescribe a drug that they know doesn't work well or that is dangerous (in other words -- just because you hear bad stories on FoxNews doesn't make it true). Dermatologists know a lot about how acne is caused but the problem is that acne is so common but with such varying causes that they can't devote all of their time studying the hundreds of possible causes when they could try prescribing what works for many. Sorry but your conspiracy theories don't work (though I challenge you to find the cure for acne in pill form since you claim it to be so simple).

"If I was in a life-death situation, I would be grateful for doctors. But don't trust them. "

Hypocrite. Next time a loved one has a heart attack (which has happened in my family this year), leave them on the floor and help them through a liverflush. Then report back on how it worked.

Doctors are the 3rd cause of death in America? Mercola is a sham, too, but don't take my word for it-- let's see what the CDC believes (though I bet they're just part of the conspiracy, too, right, Deepthroat?): http://www.cdc.gov/n..._causes2000.htm

Thanks for a laughable post to read as I get ready to go home after the holidays. I always appreciate the spread of good intentions but your ability to be self-righteous is a sad attempt at being knowledgeable.

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#15 Cali90

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 09:28 PM

Here are some links to look at:
www.ghchealth.com/doctors-leading-cause-of-death.html
www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/10/29/ medical_system_is_leading_cause_of_death_and_injury_in_us.htm
www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ chiropractic_health_care/64085
http://www.mercola.c...e_solutions.htm (though I don't totally agree with his diet advice)

#16 BenKweller

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 12:43 AM

Your post is a lame attempt to counter my arguments -- phrase it in a less desperate way and I'll respond (and bring something new).

"Have dermatologists cured your acne? I don't think dermatologists have cured anyone's acne to date."

No, dermatologists didn't cure mine but I was observed by one when my acne went away and I had no problem with it. I have many friends who had acne when they were teenagers and where dermatologists made it completely go away. So there goes your argument.

Either way, my post addressed that all the great doctors you posted are hacks who don't know anything and this is proven by their lack of training (especially the [probably unlicensed] nutritional consultant).

PS: Two of the links you just posted work but the presence of the word "chiropractic" makes me already laugh. Ever seen Penn & Teller "Bullshit?" The other links offer nothing new and I question the site providing numbers of death when the CDC says otherwise-- I trust it more.

PPS: Thanks for linking me to Dr. Fulton's interview:

"Event_Moderator Do greasy foods contribute to acne?

Dr_Fulton Not really. Basically it's your own oil in certain families that cause the problem and diet has little to do with it. Years ago, diet was considered a major factor, but our research has shown that it's one of the myths of acne."

Nice job. You're good at reading.

#17 Rossignol

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 06:46 AM

QUOTE
[Doctors] are the number 3 leading cause of death in America


That is ridiculous.

It seems to me that Ben and Cali represent two extremes. I think it's ludicrous to say that doctors know nothing and that dermatologists can not help acne. For 60% of people, accutane essentially 'cures' acne. I know that for my severe cystic acne, accutane was the only thing that could have suppressed it. I don't think any amount of liver flushes or colon cleanses would have got rid of it.
I'm of the opinion that diet can contribute to acne, but there is no doubt in my mind that internal cleansing would not have cleared my severe acne had I known about it then. It may have helped a little, but I don't believe that my internal organs are functioning poorly enough to have given rise to such severe acne. There must have been other causes.
Therefore, I think going the route of Doctor treatment was pretty much the only option for me. And it did help considerably. My acne isn't gone completely, but it is far less severe than it was.

However, I do feel that diet and healthy living, as well as some alternative treatments (such as homeopathy and ayurvedic medicine), can help with acne - this is what I am using to control my breakouts post-accutane. I don't share Ben's views that all alternative treatments are 'BS'.

I think it's best to find a healthy medium between the two points. Despite the fact that I don't have absolute faith in either, I feel that undergoing medical treatments whilst following a healthy diet and lifestyle and perhaps utilising some alternative practices will yield the best overall results. smile.gif


#18 irishgirl

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 08:49 AM

QUOTE(Cali90 @ Dec 26 2004, 03:52 AM)

a) The reason we have acne is because our skin is our secondary elimination organ. When we clog up our primary elimination organs--the colon and liver (and kidneys as well i believe), it must come out through secondary methods---acne.



With this statement i completely disagree!!! How could I personally have clogged up my Colon Liver and Kidneys at such a young age? i got acne when i was around 10 yes 10 years old! i have always been fit and healthy, i have never smoked, drank alcohol or taken illegal drugs to this day. the only way i could have clogged up these 3 organs is through eating junk food - but thats impossible - because then and now i hardly ever eat it! i have a good - balanced diet! i do believe that this may be a reason for some people to get acne - certantly not me though. your other reasons for people getting acne do not suit me personally - none of them!!!!!!

#19 slim

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 09:23 AM

I do agree that what u eat affects your skin. I used to have histamine reactions to foods which resulted in bumps and rashes on my skin, some of which were severe allergic reactions. What u eat can manifest in skin breakouts. I've eliminated most of those foods now. The ones that caused the allergic reactions I never eat once I knew they caused those reactions.

Also to heal my acne, I started a new routine which had a 3 part focus, my food routine, my hair care routine and my skin care routine.

I realized that some of my hair products, the ones with sillicone, affected my skin so I stopped using them. I recognized that using harsh chemicals was just drying out and damaging my skin so I stopped using them and started using things from the supermarket and basic thing from the pharmacy that are gentle to my skin. I also a well balanced diet with mostly fresh fruits and vegetables. Most packaged foods contain preservatives and color made from cold tar which can cause histamine reactions.

When I was younger my mom gave me bowel cleansings every month. She also gave me lots of fruts and vegetables to eat and lots of fish. I rarely ate beef or chicken. I never had acne. About 4 years ago I stopped doing those monthly bowel cleansings and started eating a lot of junk food because I was not at home a lot so it was convenient. 3 years ago I joined the ranks of acne sufferers. It was most distressing for me. I didn't even accept that it was acne.

Now since I've changed my entire routine going back to mom's way. I am acne free. I will start regular bowel cleansings again. But right now I eat yogurt and take an acidophilus formula called primal defense. Also the fiber I eat from fruits and veges and the oatmeal and brown rice is very healthy for bowels and I drink at least 2 liters of water daily I will not go back to eating all the crap I ate when I stopped doing what I learned from mom.

While you guys may argue. There is a middle ground between these two points and that is the place where acne sufferers can be helped. You have to go for both internal and external methods to heal yourself. There is no harm only benefits to eating healthy and doing cleansing to maintain healthy bowels.

I have a post on the board. BP FREE ACID FREE SKIN CARE ZIT FREE. It has the links to my blog for what I have done. Maybe it can help someone. It's working for me.

#20 BenKweller

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Posted 28 December 2004 - 11:48 AM

"I don't share Ben's views that all alternative treatments are 'BS'."

I don't think that. It just so happens that all of the half thought-out ideas presented on this board are crap. Liver cleansing? Colon irrigation? Yeah. Right.