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VINEGAR against insulin resistance?? Hmm...


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#21 SweetJade1980

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 14 2004, 02:56 PM)
I think the point of the article is that high sugar intake doesn't cause diabetes... The biggest factor for it is undoubtedly obesity.

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Wrong. Besides, who cares, we aren't talking about diabetes. We are talking about acne & IR. You can be THIN and insulin Resistant for many many many years before you MAY become a Type II Diabetic (mabye then also obese) and you INCREASE your risk of becoming one (no gaurantee) the more sugar & sat/trans fats you eat daily as these increase your Insulin Resistance. Again, we are talking about Insulin Resistance, not diabetes, so what doubts do you have in that respect?

#22 BenKweller

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 08:59 PM

Again, I have no idea about what IR even is and the difference between it and diabetes; I'm simply stating the fact that diabetes is not caused by high sugar intake.

#23 SweetJade1980

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 14 2004, 07:59 PM)
Again, I have no idea about what IR even is and the difference between it and diabetes; I'm simply stating the fact that diabetes is not caused by high sugar intake.

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So you are no longer disputing the fact that those that are Insulin Resistant may also be more likely to have hyperandrogenism, and thus acne?

As for what Insulin Resistance is, it's rather a bit complicated. However I can tell you that it occurs during major growth periods in our lives such as puberty and pregnancy (if a woman). Otherwise it shouldn't exist but because of one's genetic suseptibility and one's environment the risk for developing permanent/chronic insulin resistance can rise. Note if your diet is crappy enough, any disease is possible (ever watched Supersize Me?)

I can also tell you and if it wasn't you, then it was Bignosedbandit (?) that Insulin Resistance is generally thought to be asymptomatic for decades, except for the presence of Acanthosis Nigricans (did you look this up yet?). That if you don't STOP or TREAT the problem during this time, you may develop Type II Diabetes (as Bignose's father did). That IR has more to do with a defect in the metabolic pathway for insulin of some sort, than a sugar issue. Yet because sugar calls forth insulin, sugar plays a pivitol role (why we always talk about it).

Our cells may be insulin resistant because:

We produce defective insulin
We have cells too full of glucose
We have too much fat competing w/ glucose for cell uptake

(Anyone want to add or clarify please?)


Now, like I mentioned before, since they don't regularly test for IR you aren't likely to have a doctor tell you you're diabetic until you hit your 30s or 40s as, prior to this stage you may be slowly transitioning through the first stages. I'm inclined to say that acne is another possible sign when it comes to detecting "asymptomatic" Insulin Resistance Syndrome, but it isn't ALWAYS present. However, the stages for this begins with another skin condition, Acanthosis Nigricans (velvety dark patches where the skin folds - underarms, knees, knuckles, neck) which is present first, followed by Hyperandrogenism (acne, hirsutism, alopecia, etc), and then if it prolongs Insulin Resistance will turn into Pre-Diabetes, and then Diabetes Type II. The stages below show Insulin Resistance and it's progression into Diabetes:

QUOTE
The Five Stages of Diabetes

Stage 1 - insulin resistance (IR) only
Stage 2 - IR, plus hyperinsulinism (HI)
Stage 3 - IR, HI, plus abnormalities in a GTT
Stage 4 - Type II diabetes, with high insulin levels
Stage 5 - Type II diabetes, with low insulin levels

[Stage 6 - Type I diabetes, with low - no insulin levels (?)]
http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/11/30-765072.html
http://diabetes.nidd...nce/index.htm#5

As you can see from the above chart, if one truly is insulin resistant (25% - 30% of population), a small percent (6%) may turn into a Type II Diabetic (90% of all diabetics) eventually. However there are other health problems that are associated with Insulin Resistance and so while a few members around here have found that dietary changes don't work from them, their parents still had Insulin Resistance and are now Diabetics, so they are still at risk for future health problems such as heart disease, obesity, and even cancer.

Of course, an endocrinologist would be one's best bet, but here are some questionnaires that might help anyone concerned figure it out:
Do You Have Insulin Resistance?
http://www.insulitel...e/areyouIR.html

Blood-Sugar Symptom Questionnaire
http://atkins.com/Ar.../14-753571.html

#24 SweetJade1980

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE
Metabolism. 1988 Jul;37(7):656-9. Related Articles, Links 


Hyperandrogenism, insulin resistance, acanthosis nigricans, and systemic lupus erythematosis associated with insulin receptor antibodies.

Kellett HA, Collier A, Taylor R, Sawers JS, Benton C, Doig A, Baird D, Clarke BF.

Diabetic Department, Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh, England.

We report a young woman with systemic lupus erythematosis (SLE) who developed diabetes secondary to extreme insulin resistance, associated with severe hyperandrogenism and acanthosis nigricans. Her insulin resistance was found to be associated with high titers of insulin receptor antibodies. The hyperandrogenism has been favourably influenced by cyclical treatment with cyproterone acetate and ethinyl oestradiol, but the insulin resistance and acanthosis nigricans have remained unmodified after 15 months of follow up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....3&dopt=Abstract

QUOTE
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1978 Sep;47(3):620-5. Related Articles, Links 


Insulin resistance, acanthosis nigricans, and normal insulin receptors in a young woman: evidence for a postreceptor defect.

Bar RS, Muggeo M, Roth J, Kahn CR, Havrankova J, Imperato-McGinley J.

We have previously described a group of young females with virilization, acanthosis nigricans, insulin resistance, and markedly decreased binding of insulin to its receptor (syndrome of insulin resistance and acanthosis nigricans type A). The present report concerns a 15-yr-old female with clinical features indistinguishable from the type A patients, including virilization, acanthosis nigricans, and extreme resistance to endogenous and exogenous insulin. Insulin levels were 400-650 microU/ml while fasting and were over 2200 microU/ml when stimulated. Proinsulin was less than 10% of the total immunoassayable insulin. In distinct contrast to the type A patients, insulin receptors on cells from this patient were entirely normal on the basis of specificity, negative cooperativity, affinity, concentration, and interaction with antiinsulin receptor antibodies. These findings suggest the presence of an intracellular defect as the cause of the observed insulin resistance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....8&dopt=Abstract

Once again, look at the dates. They've know the connection between Insulin and Steriod Hormones (progesterones, androgens, estrogens) since the 1960s or 70s. these are just studies showing you how early they began noticing a cluster of symptoms that can now be found in an ever increasing number of men and women.


QUOTE
Besides obesity, what other problems can Insulin Resistance cause?
delayed onset or irregular menstrual cycles
problems with fertility
high blood pressure
hardening of the arteries
high cholesterol and high triglyceride levels
excessive body hair
As a result of being overweight, bone and joint injuries and even Obstructive Sleep Apnea (breathing that stops while you sleep) occur.

What is Acanthosis Nigricans?
Acanthosis Nigricans (AN) may be the reason you were referred here. AN is a discoloration of the skin (often dark) on the following areas:

around the neck
under the armpits
along the waistline in the groin area
on the knuckles, elbows and toes
Some persons with more severe cases may have the following:

thick skin tags (or polyps) around the neck
darkened areas around the nose, eyes, and cheeks
dark stretch marks on the inside bend of the elbow
Most parents have thought this skin change was due to dirt and have tried to scrub the area clean. This is not a skin infection or other skin disease, but an indicator that Insulin Resistance may be present. We have found that the amount of AN does not always reflect the severity of the Insulin Resistance.

What causes Acanthosis Nigricans?
In young persons, AN is a visible marker which strongly suggests insulin resistance. Higher than normal insulin levels in the blood stream causes the growth of darkened skin over certain areas of the body. There is no skin treatment that will get rid of AN. Acanthosis Nigricans may lighten up and possibly go away by treating the root cause: Insulin Resistance…but it can take months or years to do so.

Don’t be surprised about not ever hearing about AN. Many doctors and nurses don’t know what it is or what it represents. Because very few people have heard about it, many health professionals do not recognize AN as an early warning sign for diabetes and other health problemshttp://www.driscollc.../insresist1.asp



QUOTE
the first documented case of AN was in 1889. By 1909, this dermatosis had been described in approximately 50 patients and was suspected to be associated with internal malignancy. In 1976, Kahn et al published their landmark study in which the association between AN and insulin resistance was first described.


Pathophysiology: AN most likely is caused by factors that stimulate epidermal keratinocyte and dermal fibroblast proliferation. In the benign form of AN, the factor is probably insulin or an insulinlike growth factor that incites the epidermal cell propagation.

In malignant AN, the stimulating factor is hypothesized to be a substance secreted either by the tumor or in response to the tumor. Transforming growth factor a is structurally similar to epidermal growth factor and is a likely candidate. Exogenous medications also have been implicated as etiologic factors.


Frequency:


In the US: The exact incidence of AN is unknown. In an unselected population of 1,412 children, the changes of AN were present in 7.1%. Obesity is closely associated with AN, and more than one half of the adults who weigh greater than 200% of their ideal body weight have lesions consistent with AN. The malignant form of AN is far less common, and, in one study, only 2 of 12,000 patients with cancer had signs of AN.

Mortality/Morbidity: AN is divided into 2 broad categories, benign and malignant.

Patients with the benign form of AN experience very few, if any, complications of their skin lesions. However, many of these patients have an underlying insulin-resistant state that is the cause of their AN. The severity of the insulin resistance is highly variable and ranges from an incidental finding on routine blood studies to overt diabetes mellitus. The severity of skin findings may parallel the degree of insulin resistance, and a partial resolution may occur with treatment of the insulin-resistant state. Insulin resistance is the most common association of acanthosis nigricans in the younger age population. .........................

Causes: The definitive cause for AN has not yet been ascertained, although several possibilities have been suggested. Eight types of AN have been described.

Obesity-associated AN, once labeled pseudoacanthosis nigricans, is the most common type of AN.
Lesions may appear at any age but are more common in adulthood.

The dermatosis is weight dependent, and lesions may completely regress with weight reduction.

Insulin resistance is often present in these patients; however, it is not universal.
Syndromic AN is the name given to AN that is associated with a syndrome. In addition to the widely recognized association of AN with insulin resistance, AN has been associated with numerous syndromes (see Picture 2). The type A syndrome and type B syndrome are special examples.

The type A syndrome also is termed the hyperandrogenemia, insulin resistance, and acanthosis nigricans syndrome (HAIR-AN syndrome). This syndrome is often familial, affecting primarily young women (especially black women). It is associated with polycystic ovaries or signs of virilization (eg, hirsutism, clitoral hypertrophy). High plasma testosterone levels are common. The lesions of AN may arise during infancy and progress rapidly during puberty.

The type B syndrome generally occurs in women who have uncontrolled diabetes mellitus, ovarian hyperandrogenism, or an autoimmune disease such as systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, Sjögren syndrome, or Hashimoto thyroiditis. Circulating antibodies to the insulin receptor may be present. In these patients, the lesions of AN are of varying severity.
http://www.emedicine...derm/topic1.htm


Funny how the some of the same factors that participate in the production of acne, in the formation of a clogged pore, are present in Acanthosis as well....hmm.

#25 moonagedaydream

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:51 AM

QUOTE(bryan @ Dec 9 2004, 10:16 PM)
I was intrigued by the new thread somebody started recently which cited the study in which milk was found to increase insulin very significantly in young boys.  That's very worrisome to me, if it's true for eveyone in general.

Here's a scan of another fascinating study in a recent issue of a diabetes journal (I post on so many different forums, sometimes I forget WHAT I've posted WHERE...my apologies if I've already posted this link here on this site) which found that 20 grams of apple cider vinegar prior to a high-carb meal increased insulin sensitivity.  Notice the statement near the very end where they say that vinegar _may_ have an effect similar to metformin (Glucophage):

http://www.geocities...gar_insulin.htm

Bryan

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This is interesting to me as I was just reading about apple cider vinegar being used as a weight-loss aid, apparently for its appetite-suppression and "detoxifying" effects. I'm always skeptical when someone says "detoxifying" but hey, maybe it does something to counteract sugars or carbs which WOULD be good for weight, and it would seem good for acne - assuming insulin and acne are related. Did they drink vinegar in liquid form or take tablets? (sorry, prefer to take your word for it at the moment than read another mind-numbing study... got enough of those in classes)

#26 bryan

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 03:14 AM

QUOTE(moonagedaydream @ Dec 17 2004, 02:51 AM)
This is interesting to me as I was just reading about apple cider vinegar being used as a weight-loss aid, apparently for its appetite-suppression and "detoxifying" effects. I'm always skeptical when someone says "detoxifying" but hey...

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Yeah, me too. The very word "detoxifying" is a big red flag for me! lol.gif

Did they drink vinegar in liquid form or take tablets? (sorry, prefer to take your word for it at the moment than read another mind-numbing study... got enough of those in classes)

Oh for god's sake...and I thought _I_ was lazy!! eusa_doh.gif They mixed 20 grams of vinegar with some water, added some saccharin to it to sweeten it a little, then down the hatch it went.

It's really just an extended "Letter to the Editor", it's not long at all. Less than a page, IIRC. Go ahead and read the damned thing!

Bryan

#27 BenKweller

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 04:23 PM

"So you are no longer disputing the fact that those that are Insulin Resistant may also be more likely to have hyperandrogenism, and thus acne?"

No -- I'm simply saying no one has explained to me what any of the big words you used are and I don't care enough to look it up; I think looking for facts shouldn't be a competition as much as a search for truth and you seem to just be trying to win an argument over find something new out. And you never really acknowledged that sugar consumption doesn't cause diabetes.

PS: Yes-- detoxifying is a BIG red flag... mostly because we are not toxic to begin with.

#28 SweetJade1980

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 01:25 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 17 2004, 03:23 PM)
"So you are no longer disputing the fact that those that are Insulin Resistant may also be more likely to have hyperandrogenism, and thus acne?"

No -- I'm simply saying no one has explained to me what any of the big words you used are and I don't care enough to look it up; I think looking for facts shouldn't be a competition as much as a search for truth and you seem to just be trying to win an argument over find something new out. And you never really acknowledged that sugar consumption doesn't cause diabetes.

PS: Yes-- detoxifying is a BIG red flag... mostly because we are not toxic to begin with.

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"I'm simply saying no one has explained to me what any of the big words you used are and I don't care enough to look it up;"

"you seem to just be trying to win an argument over find something new out."

Sadly enough those two statements are exactly why I can't work with you anymore. You say that I don't want to find something NEW out (????), yet you are the one that doesn't care enough to look something NEW up!

End game.

#29 BenKweller

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 12:26 PM

? Alright.

No -- it's more of me saying, "I don't know what this is about, care to explain," and you say, "It's very very complicated."

Hypocrite