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VINEGAR against insulin resistance?? Hmm...


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#1 bryan

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 10:16 PM

I was intrigued by the new thread somebody started recently which cited the study in which milk was found to increase insulin very significantly in young boys. That's very worrisome to me, if it's true for eveyone in general.

Here's a scan of another fascinating study in a recent issue of a diabetes journal (I post on so many different forums, sometimes I forget WHAT I've posted WHERE...my apologies if I've already posted this link here on this site) which found that 20 grams of apple cider vinegar prior to a high-carb meal increased insulin sensitivity. Notice the statement near the very end where they say that vinegar _may_ have an effect similar to metformin (Glucophage):

http://www.geocities...gar_insulin.htm

Bryan

#2 BenKweller

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 10:54 PM

My issue with the milk study was that it basically gave 8 year old boys a large amount of milk for only 7 days and took levels; researchers don't know if insulin-resistance subsides after that. That and the changes that occur in puberty to the metabolic processes make me question that study.

I still don't understand, though, what insulin resistance has to do with acne. If someone can sum it up (without a 10 pg. post linking to med pages), I'd love it; I just need a dummies guide.

#3 bryan

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 12:09 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 9 2004, 11:54 PM)
I still don't understand, though, what insulin resistance has to do with acne. If someone can sum it up (without a 10 pg. post linking to med pages), I'd love it; I just need a dummies guide.

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I agree with you on that, Ben! I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, but I'm a bit dubious about the alleged connection.

Bryan

#4 Doberwoman

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 01:53 PM

The connection between insulin resistance and acne, dummies guide, as I understand it, is this:

if you are insulin resistant, you need to produce the same amount of insulin to maintain your blood sugar levels at normal -- this leads to hyperinsulinaemia (high levels of insulin in the blood). High levels of insulin are believed to be linked with high levels of androgen. Androgens are directly implicated in the development of acne. Hey presto.

#5 BenKweller

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 04:06 PM

Hmmm... I don't buy it. Too many "linked tos" that would, more likely than not, be partitioned out too much to make a difference.

#6 modest mouse

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 05:48 PM

i dont get it. so is the acv good or bad to drink. haha i dont understand all the insulin stuff. is insulin good or bad?? nebody clear this up for me. i drink acv once in awhile cuz it helps my digestion but it tastes like shit but if its better for me than i thought than i might drink it more often.

#7 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 05:52 PM

I do know this, it's rotton for your teeth, so is drinking lemon water. Of course if you chew gum of drink a glass of normal water after it would be fine.

#8 lauramarie

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 05:55 PM

hi..i'm insulin resistant and when i was first diagnosed with it..the only reason my doctor suspected there was something wrong with me was because I developped acne for the first time in my life(I was 18)...because my insulin just sit around in my blood stream and is not absorbed properly it screws up all my other hormone levels..including androgens etc..which causes more acne..but i've gotten my hormones under control thanks to diet and exercise(weight lfting is great for insulin resistance) but i get acne aroudn my period and when i'm stressed..so ya..there is a connection btwn insulin resistance and acne..i'm living proof.
it's all one big cuneiform tablet to me!!

#9 Doberwoman

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 05:10 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 10 2004, 02:06 PM)
Hmmm... I don't buy it. Too many "linked tos" that would, more likely than not, be partitioned out too much to make a difference.

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Not really. Doctors already know that insulin resistance can lead to high androgen levels (as in PCOS). That's one "linked to". The other "linked to" is in fact more of a definition -- insulin resistance results in high insulin levels. ie, if you are insulin resistant, you will have high levels of insulin in your blood. No "linked to", just a fact. High insulin levels can results in androgen excess -- one "linked to". Although there are many things that can affect acne, it is at its root caused by androgen excess or androgen sensitivity -- if you eliminate this, you eliminate the acne, no matter what crappy food you eat or how many p acnes bacteria are crawling around your skin. (when was the last time you saw a pre-pubescent child with acne?)

Just one "linked to". How is that too many? and of course, there is a lot of data that shows that women with PCOS, if treated for insulin-resistance, the symptoms of hyperandrogenism (including acne) also disappear.

This of course doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that all people with acne are insulin resistant -- just that some might be, and might benefit from controlling their diet with respect to refined carbohydrate intake.

Me, I find no connection between carbohydrate intake and my acne -- but dairy sure as hell wreaks havoc. So, on this basis I'd guess that insulin resistance probably isn't at the root of my acne. Doesn't mean it isn't for others.



#10 BenKweller

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 12:43 PM

My main "linked to" stretch is the number of people that are insulin resistant. What are symptoms of the disease? Is it similar to diabetes with obesity being the biggest factor?

#11 lauramarie

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 06:29 PM

i'm definitely not obese but i have it!!
it's all one big cuneiform tablet to me!!

#12 Doberwoman

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 02:43 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 11 2004, 10:43 AM)
My main "linked to" stretch is the number of people that are insulin resistant. What are symptoms of the disease? Is it similar to diabetes with obesity being the biggest factor?

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Well, according to this publication, 16% of white people are insulin resistant (I assume they mean in the US). Blacks and Native Americans have a higher incidence, but I don't know about Asians.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=20041936

According to this one, 23% of Southern French men aer insulin resistant, but only 12% of women (I'd guess because men drink more)

http://www.findartic..._25/ai_90511370

The incidence of insulin resistance increases in the older population, and in fact most clinicians would consider that what is "normal" for a 60 year old would be viewed as a diabetic response in a 16 year old.

As for the symptoms of the disease, just as for diabetes, you can have no obvious symptoms whatsoever unless you are tested (long term however, it can lead to kidney disease, blindness, gangrene etc if untreated, and is a major factor in cardiovascular disease). As far as what's different between diabetes and insulin resistance -- the distinction can be somewhat artificial, as severe insulin resistance is essentially the same as diabetes -- you cannot take sugar up in to your cells and so blood sugar levels remain high. Most people use the term "insulin resistance" to mean a state where you require more insulin to maintain normal blood sugar than a "normal" person, but as I understand it, individuals who are insulin resistant normally have high blood sugar levels as well:

http://diabetes.nidd...ulinresistance/

In any case, high insulin levels aren't particularly any better than high sugar levels. I used to do research in cardiovascular disease (I'm a biomedical engineer, and was developing coatings to reduce the inflammatory response for cardiovascular prostheses), and it is well known in that sector that insulin increases the inflammatory response of endothelial cells, making them "stickier" and leading to atherosclerosis. I've often wondered if it also makes skin cells "stickier", clogging up your pores and leading to acne.

EDIT: This is probably more important in terms of answering your question. According to the review below, insulin and IGF increase the number of oil glands (ie sebocytes) in your skin. That's a pretty simple answer, no?

http://www.endocrine...4/teyx09-26.pdf


#13 torbosk

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 01:47 PM

Good post Doberwoman. Although i agree that diet isnt 100% responsible for acne. I still hate that some people are in denial and refuse to see certain things even if you place hard facts in front of them.

I dont know if insulin/IGF makes skin cells stickier, but i think that because they are hormones, they promote the cells to grow faster and shed more. This way our pores get clogged faster, creating more acne.

#14 BenKweller

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 07:50 PM

"Well, according to this publication, 16% of white people are insulin resistant (I assume they mean in the US). Blacks and Native Americans have a higher incidence, but I don't know about Asians.
"

Well my problem, then, is that if 16% of white people are insulin resistant yet this takes into account that most of them are older people... I don't know many elderly men with acne and, as such, would think any insulin connection to acne would be very very low statistically (much less than 10% even).

#15 SweetJade1980

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 08:17 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 13 2004, 06:50 PM)
"Well, according to this publication, 16% of white people are insulin resistant (I assume they mean in the US). Blacks and Native Americans have a higher incidence, but I don't know about Asians.
"

Well my problem, then, is that if 16% of white people are insulin resistant yet this takes into account that most of them are older people... I don't know many elderly men with acne and, as such, would think any insulin connection to acne would be very very low statistically (much less than 10% even).

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Yes, I understand that, BUT what you must understand is that Insulin Resistance doesn't guarantee acne. In fact it doesn't even guarantee Diabetes, Obesity, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Heart Disease, Cancer, etc.......but it is strongly associated with all of these diseases. If one person get's acne, they may not get cancer. Then again, if they do get acne and it lasts for a loooooong period of time, they never get diagnosed, their IR get's worse and Boom, now they've become a Type II Diabetic. My point is that some triggers (Insulin Resistance), don't always lead to the SAME disease for EVERYONE and that's actually a beautiful thing. On the other hand some people can be soo genetically susceptible and senstive to an environment that encourages IR, that they end up with all of the above diseases associated with IR =(

Another note, IR can be caused by lack of exercise, lack of sleep, lack of dietary fiber, TOO MUCH (refined) carbohydrates/gluten, saturated/trans fats, refined/added sugars, dairy, and of course our genetic susceptibility. Those most susceptible happen to be those not native to the United States (our "western food" is over in Europe, Asia etc so it is slowly increasing for them too) such as Native Americans, American Indian, Mexican Americans, Asian American, and African Americans.

If I recall according to the NIH 25% of the U.S. population is IR. Yet only about 6 -8% become Diabetic (see no gaurantees). As if yet, there are no definate signs other than Acanthosis Nigricans. It's doesn't hurt, but it is a skin condition and it is supposedly ALWAYS associated with Insulin Resistance no matter how mild or severe. If it can cause one skin condition (kinda like hyperpigmentation), why can't you believe it can cause another one? Yet in this cause, acne is associated with both the inflammatory products and androgen production that's encouraged when one's body is insulin resistant.

I'm not about to cite anymore studies for you as I've done so ad naseum. However I will repeat this once more, Puberty is a Temporary State of Insulin Resistance. Temporary as it is supposed to cease once puberty is over, yet that doesn't always happen for some people, such as myself. Furtheremore, you are more likely to be Insulin Resistant and Hyperandrogenic if you had Precocious Puberty (puberty at or before age 8). There are several studies that have noted that when you are in an Insulin Resistant State during puberty, that it favors a Hyperandrogenic state. There are also numerous studies that have shown a direct linkage between the prescence of insulin in the blood and the amount of androgens produced. While increased IGF-1 is associated (as IGFBP-3 can be reduced), a much stronger indicator is one's SHBG levels. SHBG stands for sex hormone binding globulin and it is also reduced when one is Insulin Resistant. SHBG has a higer affinity for binding FREE Androgens, therefore if it is reduced you are in a hyperandrogenic state. This is where the diet studies come in. As various diet studies, wheat, carbohydrates, saturated fats, fructose, etc have also further supported the above events. Therefore if you are at risk (and you may not know it), then avoidng foods that INCREASE your Insulin Resistance, is a wise decision.

Once again, just because you are hyperandrogenic, it doesn't mean you will have acne (as your retinoid and/or androgen receptors must also be defective or sensitive). You could have some other skin disorder, rheumatoid arthritis, androgenic alopecia, hirsutism, or cancer (breast or prostate). Oh and did any of you guys know that women have PSA levels? This is rather fascinating to me as it's also another good way to note if one is in a hyperandrogenic state.


Take Care,


P.S. When Males hit mid 30s and older, they are still Insulin Resitant (if they were), only it changes for them because of something known as Andropause. Therefore when researching the connection usually you can't look at older males, but at males younger than 30. IR is still there, and hyperandrogenism is still there in a sense because you MUST make Androgens before Estrogen, BUT in this case males undergoing Andropause end up making losts more Estrogen. Otherwise, the same factors that I mentioned are rather similar and when they follow the same "hormonally balanced diets" like myself and others do, their hormone levels will also regulate (with them producing more SHBG & normal testosterone and less estrogen).
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#16 BenKweller

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 10:01 PM

"Another note, IR can be caused by lack of exercise, lack of sleep, lack of dietary fiber, TOO MUCH (refined) carbohydrates/gluten,"

I thought I heard a study that said that intake of sugar isn't linked to diabetes. Does this still apply?

#17 SweetJade1980

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 13 2004, 09:01 PM)
"Another note, IR can be caused by lack of exercise, lack of sleep, lack of dietary fiber, TOO MUCH (refined) carbohydrates/gluten,"

I thought I heard a study that said that intake of sugar isn't linked to diabetes.  Does this still apply?

View Post




Ben,

There are various forms of Diabetes. The most prevelant form by 90% is Type II Diabetes. Now I KNOW you are aware that Diabetes is a condition involving Sugar & Insulin Balance, correct. Therefore how can you believe that sugar doesn't influence this??? Please post this study that you've mentioned several times because common sense should prevail here.

If sugar wasn't a problem for either form of diabetes then these individuals would eat it freely. Yet in the case of Type II, this is due to having too much sugar in the blood stream which in turn releases too much insulin. If your cells are full or for some other reason resistant to the insulin, you will produce more and more insulin to try and get the sugar in the cells.

I once posted a study where they showed that eating 200g of carbohydrates ( a former typical mc donalds meal for me) would increase the risk of IR for Native Americans by 80% yet only 20% for Caucasians. Therefore, why would these individuals, ever eat that much sugar?

Seriously EVERYONE here carbohydrate count your meals for 3 - 7 days. Then average out what you were eating. Don't forget to include breads, pastas, drinks, candies, sauces, soups, etc. check the carbohydrate & sugar count for EVERYTHING you eat (do not subtract the fiber). You may be very surprised at just how much you are eating in a day. Depending on your activity level 400 - 800g of carbs would be considered High Carbohydrate diet. If you are in that level and aren't an athlete, that's probably too much.

While I do not carbohydrate count, my diet is now 45% - 50% carbhydrates which is a Moderate Carbohydrate Diet and has been indicated to be the preferred choice in controlling weight & health problems. I personally used to eat 400 - 600g a day, and now I eat 200 - 300g a day. So as it turns out, my new diet wasn't low-carb, but Mod-Carb ;-)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#18 BenKweller

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 10:33 PM

http://members.kaise...mans_story.html

That site makes mention of it. I'm trying to track down the actual case file -- gimme a bit.

Also...

"MYTH: Sugar causes diabetes

About 20 years ago, scientists debunked this myth. But, many still believe sugar causes diabetes. In diabetes, the body can't use sugar normally. And the causes are complex and are yet to be fully known. Genetics play a role, but illness, obesity or simply getting older also may trigger diabetes.

Diet is part of the strategy to manage diabetes--although diet does not cause diabetes--along with physical activity and perhaps medication. In the past, people with diabetes were warned to avoid or strictly limit sugar in their food choices. Today, experts recognize that sugars and starches have similar effects on blood sugar levels. The amount of carbohydrate, not the source, is the issue for people with diabetes.

Moderate amounts of sugar can be part of a well-balanced diet for people with diabetes, according to the American Diabetes Association. If you have diabetes, a registered dietitian can help plan and monitor your diet. "

#19 SweetJade1980

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 13 2004, 09:33 PM)
http://members.kaise...mans_story.html

That site makes mention of it. I'm trying to track down the actual case file -- gimme a bit.

Also...

"MYTH: Sugar causes diabetes

About 20 years ago, scientists debunked this myth. But, many still believe sugar causes diabetes. In diabetes, the body can't use sugar normally. And the causes are complex and are yet to be fully known. Genetics play a role, but illness, obesity or simply getting older also may trigger diabetes.

Diet is part of the strategy to manage diabetes--although diet does not cause diabetes--along with physical activity and perhaps medication. In the past, people with diabetes were warned to avoid or strictly limit sugar in their food choices. Today, experts recognize that sugars and starches have similar effects on blood sugar levels. The amount of carbohydrate, not the source, is the issue for people with diabetes.

Moderate amounts of sugar can be part of a well-balanced diet for people with diabetes, according to the American Diabetes Association. If you have diabetes, a registered dietitian can help plan and monitor your diet. "

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Exactly. So if you have a problem, don't be gorging on too much sugar/carbs, or specific carbs (depends on your sensitivity/susceptibility). If you aren't aware you have a problem, don't think you can get by on a High Carbohydrate, Low Fiber, Trans/Sat Fat diet with a sedentary lifestyle as it will eventually catch up to you.
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#20 BenKweller

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 03:56 PM

I think the point of the article is that high sugar intake doesn't cause diabetes... The biggest factor for it is undoubtedly obesity.