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Water VS Diet: Why aren't they the same?

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#1 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 01:59 AM

In my Fundamentals of Nutrition class we learned that Water makes up the sixth nutrient of foods. The other five nutrients are:

Carbohydrates (fibers, starches, sugars)
Lipids (fats & oils)
Proteins (amino acids)
Vitamins
Minerals


Now the "Building Blocks" of the human body consists of:

Carbohydrates
Lipids
Proteins

So my first question is, how is it that one can say that "water cleared them up", yet turn around and denounce that other dietary changes can do the same thing?

How can one provide their testimony & scientific explanation as to the Hows & Whys that "water cleared them", but despite anecdotal evidence (testimonies), explanations, and dozens of scientific studies in support of what we say, turn around and say: "diet can't clear you" or "it was a placebo effect". Funny, this person didn't provide any supporting scientific studies and even if there were, why can't the addition of water be the placebo for this individual?

Oh and my favorite one is, how is it that derms & doctors will say that diet has no impact on our acne, and then turn around and say...."but maybe you should avoid iodine as this can cause problems" Is not IODINE a MINERAL??? Is it not found in FOOD? Just what exactly are they trying to say here, as if one were to actually follow this advice...they would be avoiding a lot more foods than some members of this forum currently do:
QUOTE
Fishing for a Cause?

It may sound fishy, but if you are prone to acne, there is at least one doctor who believes that seafood and other foods containing iodine could bring on an attack.

"Iodine is a factor in some people who are prone to acne," says James E. Fulton, Jr., M.D., Ph.D. " Iodine enters the body and mixes into the bloodstream, with the excess excreted through the oil glands. As it is excreted, it irritates the pores and brings on an acne flare-up."

If you've been fishing around for a clue to the cause of your acne, here's a table of some foods and beverages and the amount, in parts per million, of iodides that they contain.

Dr. Fulton does not currently know at what level the iodides could bring on an acne attack, but he warns that "excessive long-term ingestion can induce acne attacks."

Food/Beverage      Iodides (ppm) 
Dairy Products
Cheddar cheese spread                      27
Butter                                               26
Homogenized Milk                               11
Sour cream                                        7
Cottage cheese                                   5
Yogurt                                                3

Drinking water (U.S. average)    8

Meat and Poultry
Beef liver                                          325
Turkey                                              132

Chicken                                               67
Hamburger                                          44

Miscellaneous
Tortilla chips                                       80
Wheat germ                                       46
Potato chips                                        40
Pretzels                                              15
White bread                                          8
Coca-Cola                                            3
Sugar                                                   2

Salt
Iodized                                               54
Seasoned                                           40

Seafood
Kelp                                               1,020
Squid                                                 39
Crab                                                  33
Sole                                                  24
Clams                                               20
Shrimp                                              17
Lobster                                              9
Oysters                                              8

Vegetables
Asparagus                                        169
Broccoli                                             90
Onions (white)                                    82
Corn                                                  45
Brussels sprouts                                 23
Potato                                                 9
Green beans                                        7

http://www.mothernat.../Books/47/2.cfm


Hmm if that's the case, I suppose one had better give up turkey before seafood (unless you really have a shellfish allergy).

It's interesting though, because some of you will say that diet only affects you if you are allergic, but do you know what that means? A person with an allergy (intolerance or sensitivity), avoids a particular food, not because it's an apple, but because that apple, contains an allergen (glycoprotein) that doesn't interact well with their body.

This is the SAME concept that the rest of us follow, either through the addition or removal of a particular nutrient found in certain foods, we have managed to improve or clear our skin. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with the food itself, but the nutrient or "toxin" (pesticidal residue, added hormones, trans fats, etc) that it contains and HOW it interacts in our system. I suppose if we could alter that nutrient, we could eat certain foods again, but as of now, that isn't a possibility (who knows what side effects could stem from that).

Once again, what I am saying is that for those of us that avoid a particular food, we do it because we are getting too much of a particular nutrient found in this food. Just as surely as we all know that getting too much of a particular vitamin or mineral can cause health problems (kidney damage, hair loss, etc), the same goes for other nutrients in foods too.

Therefore, knowing that water is among the 6 nutrients found in food, do you still honestly feel that water & diet are two different things? Furthermore, why is it so hard to accept that different dietary changes will work best for different individuals? Why must some people think that only what they do is scientifically correct and therefore acceptable because "it worked for them" when other dietary changes (that worked for others) didn't?

#2 Snipe12

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 04:45 AM

Hey SweetJade, hope you are well.
I was laughing whilst reading your post, not because of exactly what you had written but because I knew which person it was mostly directed out.
Lets hope this turns in to an interesting & intelligent discussion without developing in to an argument like most of the others.


#3 BillClinton

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 06:17 AM

QUOTE(Snipe12 @ Dec 5 2004, 10:45 AM)
Hey SweetJade, hope you are well.
I was laughing whilst reading your post, not because of exactly what you had written but because I knew which person it was mostly directed out.
Lets hope this turns in to an interesting & intelligent discussion without developing in to an argument like most of the others.

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That guy does not possess sufficient knowledge to participate in an intelligent discussion. all he can do is to give shits like "diet cannot clear you", "you are wrong". You can never expect him to say something that has scientific back-up. All in all, he is just an idiot who only deserves a fuck-up. His dick is the size of a peanut, which matches his brain perfectly.

#4 Darklord

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 07:47 AM

Its like the saying, 'You are what you eat' and i definately think that diet is a cause for acne.
Thanks Sweetjade for that.

Tom

#5 sinashgh

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 09:21 AM

Great stuff SweetjadE!!

It was a good read and I fully agree with what you said, then again its hard NOT TO AGREE with you since you always convince us with great research and knowledge.

Long Live Sweet Jade
Long Live Sweet Jade
Long Live Sweet Jade
Long Live Sweet Jade
Long Live Sweet Jade

C'mon Everybody!!

#6 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 12:52 PM

Wow, that was a not so subtle jab at Ben. ninja.gif
I always enjoy reading your posts though.

Water is different from other nutrients as it acts as a flush as well as a transporter. Your organs will also suffer without proper amounts of water(Thus inefficiently ridding yourself of metabolic wastes).

Water helps your body metabolize stored fats(It really helps the liver in this way).
It can also relieve constipation and creates proper bowal movemnets. It's involved in every bodily function from absorption, excretion, circulation, digestion, etc... Therefore I think, and rightly so, water should have a more profound affect on acne than diet. I'm not saying diet doesn't play some role, but I think water(and other things like your mind as I have already said) play a bigger role.

If you did get clear by a certain diet though than great, keep on doind it, as long as you're clear. I just think in terms of importance a good diet in general is great but the proper amount of water is essential.

ALso drink as close to distilled as you can. Never mind the talk about it being dead water, if our air wasn't so damn polluted snow and rain would be dilstilled. It's natures way of purification and I won't get into a whole spiel about it but just know that things like spring water and such aren't as good for you as distilled.

Also water does flush out things like sodium and iodine so if you were to eat a lot of it but drink a lot of water, you would not aborb as much.

#7 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 01:35 PM

QUOTE(blackbirdbeatle @ Dec 5 2004, 11:52 AM)
Wow, that was a not so subtle jab at Ben.  ninja.gif
I always enjoy reading your posts though.

Water is different from other nutrients as it acts as a flush as well as a transporter. Your organs will also suffer without proper amounts of water(Thus inefficiently ridding yourself of metabolic wastes).

Water helps your body metabolize stored fats(It really helps the liver in this way).
It can also relieve constipation and creates proper bowal movemnets. It's involved in every bodily function from absorption, excretion, circulation, digestion, etc... Therefore I think, and rightly so, water should have a more profound affect on acne than diet. I'm not saying diet doesn't play some role, but I think water(and other things like your mind as I have already said) play a bigger role.

If you did get clear by a certain diet though than great, keep on doind it, as long as you're clear. I just think in terms of importance a good diet in general is great but the proper amount of water is essential.

ALso drink as close to distilled as you can. Never mind the talk about it being dead water, if our air wasn't so damn polluted snow and rain would be dilstilled. It's natures way of purification and I won't get into a whole spiel about it but just know that things like spring water and such aren't as good for you as distilled.

Also water does flush out things like sodium and iodine so if you were to eat a lot of it but drink a lot of water, you would not aborb as much.

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LOL, I'm not laughing at your post, but am at the fact that you just explained all the good reasons one should drink water. As such, you and others feel that those are valid arguments, yet when we do the same things, explaining all the reasons one should eat this or not that, specificially to the hormonal and inflammatory role of nutrients found in these foods, it's not "valid enough" for some reason.

I personally don't understand that, but I can say first hand water never ever cleared me. I've drank 8 - 10 glasses (12oz) of water daily and while it gave my skin a glow, it never cleared me. Now all i drink is water, yet I don't drink anywhere near that amount, 4 - 6 glasses, and my dietary changes, with regards to my hormonal situation, got me 99% clear. Further supporting that different nutrients or dietary factors, such as water, glucose, or trans fats, play a larger role than others for different people.

Ahh, it's also funny that you mention the ability of water to aid in cleansing or detoxifican and regularity of bowel movements, yet some people think NONE of that is important for clear skin. However, thanks for giving this some thought and stating your case politely, that's always appreciated =)

#8 BenKweller

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 03:10 PM

Well I can believe water is a contributing factor that cleared me up because water is different than a dietary nutrient as it, unlike the fat/carb/protein intake can be directly responsible for chemical reactions in your cells (before anyone says "carbs can make chemical reactions!!" read a pamphlet on osmosis). I've read anecdotal evidence suggesting that water intake can reduce skin-surface edema which is present in everyone who has acne to some degree.

Your dietary "evidence" of "hormonal and inflammatory roles of nutrients found in these foods," it's not any kind of evidence because you skip too many steps in the metabolic process of people. It's like the people that say sex causes acne, "Sex increases testosterone!!!!" without realizing where it all goes and how little actually gets to the skin; the same argument applies here.

Of course water regulates bowel movements but it's not why people get clear from it. The entire ideal that the body is incapable of flushing itself is flawed and I don't subscribe to it despite the fact that, if I was a hypocrite and did, it'd make my arguments that much easier. I can see what you're saying Sweetjade but water is not just one of six "diet" parts of the body; it's the single most important substance on the planet and is responsible for every single cell process.

"That guy does not possess sufficient knowledge to participate in an intelligent discussion. all he can do is to give shits like "diet cannot clear you", "you are wrong". You can never expect him to say something that has scientific back-up. All in all, he is just an idiot who only deserves a fuck-up. His dick is the size of a peanut, which matches his brain perfectly."

Thanks, "Bill." Funny how you don't notice the irony in your idiotic statement of "He doesn't possess sufficient knowledge to partcipate in an intelligent discussion" and then capping it off with "his dick is the size of a peanut." I know it's sad to know that the careful steps you've taken in eating exactly the right amount of carbs, etc... doesn't do a thing but don't take your frustration out on me.

#9 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 5 2004, 02:10 PM)
Well I can believe water is a contributing factor that cleared me up because water is different than a dietary nutrient as it, unlike the fat/carb/protein intake can be directly responsible for chemical reactions in your cells (before anyone says "carbs can make chemical reactions!!" read a pamphlet on osmosis). I've read anecdotal evidence suggesting that water intake can reduce skin-surface edema which is present in everyone who has acne to some degree. 


All of the six nutrients found in foods are important for a variety of functions in the human body. Yet if you lived on water alone, you would slowly waste away because water doesn't provide anything to support growth & development other than H2O. We couldn't survive off of vitamins or minerals either as these are usually catalysts for reactions. While those nutrients can help speed up or slow down reactions, they could NEVER produce, for example a cell, without the Buliding Blocks of the human body.

Furthermore, isn't edema (Wai's argument) one aspect of inflammation? Then you agree that inflammation is associated with acne, yet did you know that both swelling and inflammation are associated with pro-inflammatory cytokines? These are blamed on microorganisms trapped in a clogged pore as well as a dietary intake that favors the production of inflammatory products.

QUOTE
Your dietary "evidence" of "hormonal and inflammatory roles of nutrients found in these foods," it's not any kind of evidence because you skip too many steps in the metabolic process of people. It's like the people that say sex causes acne, "Sex increases testosterone!!!!" without realizing where it all goes and how little actually gets to the skin; the same argument applies here.


Well, I personally do not believe that sex causes acne unless those individuals have an aromatase defficiency or are sensitive to increased amounts of testosterone that's produced during sex, otherwise I don't think it's something anyone should worry about. However hormones do play a LARGE role and I've always tried to explain this role and provide numerous amounts of supporting evidence, for which you've yet to provide, and so would you please clarify what steps I've left out? Also, please explain IN DETAIL every step that occurs when you drink water that aids in the clearing of your skin.


QUOTE
Of course water regulates bowel movements but it's not why people get clear from it. The entire ideal that the body is incapable of flushing itself is flawed and I don't subscribe to it despite the fact that, if I was a hypocrite and did, it'd make my arguments that much easier. I can see what you're saying Sweetjade but water is not just one of six "diet" parts of the body; it's the single most important substance on the planet and is responsible for every single cell process.


Yet those processes can't occur without the other nutrients. There's NO way you could ever produce a hormone or enzyme without the carbohydrate, fat, & protein building blocks of the human body. That's why they are called Building Blocks, because you NEED them in order to produce cells, hormones, enzymes, growth factors, etc that are responsible for a variety of functions in the human body, including the formation of bones, skin, & muscles.

Therefore, while our bodies are composed of 55% - 80% water (depending on age & gender), a lack of water is usually not the SINGLE most contributing factor or nutrient defficiency in the production of acne.

#10 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 07:40 PM

Whoa whoa, okay, first of all I never said that all those function of water keep you clear. I said water is the most important of those nutrients. Water regulates bowal movenments, but that's not what clears you, when you don't have enough water the body would take water from other sources and use it in the stools, thus ridding your body of essential H2O(dehydration). If you don't get enough fiber or whatever, the body doesn't look for it in other places, you just get constipated.

I also never said that that food doesn't play a part in things such as inflammation. I clearly agreed with you earlier in the summer when you and that other guy kept that long thread about inflammation. It was all very good, backed up evidence.

I'm saying that there are other factors invilved before we say something that theoretically is true in a perfect environment will happen in everyday life. Case in point the blocking is DHT in many foods is all well and good BUT numerous studies from labs trying to get rid of baldness have shown that you would need to eat a very very large amount of food or suppliments to effectively block enough DHT to cure baldness, let alone affect acne. Topically is much more effective, hence all the balding aids are topical.

However I do believe that inflammation can be controlled. It wouldn't get rid of acne, you're acne just wouldn't be inflammed. I take a bunch of herbs and thigns for my finger joints so they move better and without pain after I play piano for a long time. It helped my hands but never really helped my acne. Perhaps I wasn't taking enough to affect my face but then why wouldn't it even in a little way, affect my face? Further, the inflammation in acne is the body's reaction to what it thinks is trouble, or an injury. If you were to get rid of acne completly by inhibiting inflammation, your body would be in a sorry state for other diseases, injuries, etc...

I wish I could believe in liver flushing, as it would mean I would have cured my acne sooner instead of waiting to grow out of it(Which I did). Denise was helpful and gave me a lab report from curezone. I phoned the number on the form and the number doesn't exist. Well that piece of evidence didn't help. Then theres the fact that Ben brings up every now and again that if your body was actually filled up with thousands of stones, let alone at such a young age, you would probably die. The bile flow would be stopped or reduced to very little, your liver would be screwed, digestion would be screwed and acne would be the very least of your worries. If you guys hate Ben so much take the stones to a lab yourselves and get them tested and bring back the form here. Don't say, well I don't need to prove to Ben anything just so long as I know it works. Well, you can say that, but then don't compain when Ben calls you a liar because you haven't provided enough proof. Being clear isn't enough proof becuase there are many other things that could have cleared you, including individual things in the flush(eg. only the grapefuit or only the oil, etc...).

I probably haven't provided enough proof to satisfy some people about the mind thing. It has worked wonders for me in all areas, but I haven't really provided much medical info(although there are tons out there about his stuff). Anyway, you can call me a liar and such and I wouldn't care because it doesn't bug me like it does some of you. Honestly if Ben started calling me a liar in every one of my posts I wouldn't care becuase it's only a bloody internet board. Plus with some thigns here it's good to have some caution because what's stopping a 14y/o from doing a flush wrong because they didn't understand it and getting seriously hurt? Most adults here needed to read the instructions many times and get help form others.

Lastly, I believe the root of all acne is hormonal. It's a hormonal disease and everything that is a byproduct that leads to acne(improper exfoliation, excess subum) are all the result of hormones. It's here that I believe that food would help if anywhere.

I think that water plays an even better role in balancing hormones. Jade you said you drank 8 glasses a day, well Ben drinks 3 litres to stay clear, which is twice as much. I also think that a balanced mind(not to sound too new agey but what I mean is too much worry, stress, distraction, anger, etc...) can do wonders for balancing hormones.

Like I said before I'm just putting out ideas and what I think. I just want to ive you the idea and some background info and let you find out the rest(As for liver flushing I have searched out in vain anything I can about it and the evidence is far from convincing to me anyway).

#11 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 09:30 PM

Blackbirdbeatle,
I know that you are just putting out ideas and I appreciate that very much, I wish more people would do so (it is a forum). However I wasn't saying that drinking water would not help someone's skin, just that it's not always the cure. If I can accept others cures, why can't others accept mine?

Now as for this whole DHT thing, I've never proposed that by eating foods with DHT inhibiting properties, or more specifically 5alpha reductase & 3 alpha dehydrogenase inhibiting abilites, that we would have clear skin. In terms of the active ingredients in these foods, we would have to take an herbal or vitamin supplement that supplies us with enough of the active component to be effective (some work better than others).

However, like you've mentioned a few times, our diets can contribute to our hormonal production overall. (Over)Consuming certain foods boost this ability even more so and these tend to be the foods that most of us reduce or avoid completely. I am not talking about allergies, but the plain and "simple" way that our bodies respond to the foods we eat. In this way we can reduce overall steriod hormone production, or more specifically androgen production, which can decrease DHT production, but it would never block it's activity (like a drug or supplement would do). Hence why a hormonal balancing diet can clear someone, but it won't eliminate their hirsutism or androgenic alopecia.

You said something interesting and that you didn't believe that avoidance of inflammation would eliminate acne and I believe this is also true. If you still have a hormonal imbalance, but you've stopped the step where inflammation occurs, you won't get "acne", but the clogged pores may still be around. However, through the use of antibiotics, glucocorticoids, nicomide, motrin, boswellic acid, & fish oils, anti-inflammatories are a big way to treat acne. If you didn't see any results from the ones you were taking, perhaps they weren't the right kinds or perhaps your body required something else. Same for me, for the 3 months that I actuall took Minocycline, Spiro & BC, my skin improved, but I still wasn't 100% clear! ;-)

I also agree that some methods of eliminating inflammation are bad options as they do leave our bodies at risk for other problems. This is why I say we should shoot for as close to the root cause as we can. Since gene therapy currently isn't an option in fixing the defective retinoid receptors and/or defective/sensitive androgen receptors, all we have after several decades of acne treatments are Androgen Antagonists, Anti-inflammatories (& external exfoilants), and surgeries for those with tumors. A hormonal balancing diet, drugs, supplements, etc are sometimes all capable of doing both of these things. The biggest most praised of all, is that of Accutane, an androgen antagonist in 3 ways, an IGF-1 antagonist, and as a result of both of these actions, it's also an anti-inflammatory.

As for whether water is more important a factor, well I drank as much if not more water as Ben did as my glasses were filled with 12oz or more each. I do believe that sometimes the severity and the cause of one's acne will dictate what treatments work best for them, and this is why water worked for Ben, but not for me. Now considering that glucose is composed of water, which of these two nutrients do you think has a greater power in controlling hormonal production (not elimination)? Glucose or Water?

#12 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 09:59 PM

Just something along the lines of DHT, inflammation, etc... It's kind of scary how all those Cox-2 inhibitors and anti inflammation drugs are proving to be really dangerous.

BTW, even though things like Boswellic acid, Fish Oils, green tea, white tea, etc... didn't help me, I still take them because I know that they help with other things like oxidant removal, softening of the arteries, lowering of cholesterol, etc....

Unfortuntely for half of the people on this board, the things that have cleared you are female specific or work the best for females. In your case weren't you diagnosed with POS or something?

Acne inflammation is the same as any other kind of inflammation so why did these things treat my fingers and such with such quickness and effectiveness yet did nothing for my face?

Not taking into account binaural beats, subliminal messages(something we have no control over once they are put on), and the like(meditation) and strictly talking about nutrients I think water is still king. I never said that food doesn't play a role, it's just that until I grew out of my acne, things like water were the best ways for me to de-stress, balance my hormones(I never got that nervous feeling, which was different from stress and i could feel that the fight or flight surge would calm), it improved my overall health very quickly. Although as your route to diet is scientific and is based on something some peoples are just folklore and it those ones I don't agree with(Which the mind may play a role).

Also taking into account my personal experience, and the recent change to all things in the mind, I believe that my mindset was a huge factor. In high school my acne was mild, in the first two years of university it was mild and sometimes I was all clear. I came to sites like these and became obsessed with all things acne. I even had this page as my homepage. mad.gif Eventually whenever I went past a mirror I would look at it and scrutizize all my acne(I didn't have much). I also started eating healthier(nothing is as unhealthy as dorm meal plans and I was clear when I ate that crap) but the healthy food never helped my acne(my overall health was great though). I know my liver is not bad becasue I had it tested after a scare with some ice in Mexico, and plus I can drink like a horse and never get a hangover(I don't drink much but every so often like once a month I did). Now whenever I get tipsy I recover extremely fast(like from drunk to sober in a few hours). A clogged or whatever liver doesn't do that. Also if I drink a glass of water for every glass of alcohol I don't get drunk. That's how effecient my body is at getting rid of poisons.

Thing was when I didn't care, my acne was mild at best,and gradually I became obsessed with it and thought about it all the time and my acne went from mild to moderate within a few months. I'm now clear because I outgrew it but whenever I went on vacation or visited home I never seemed to care and my acne always cleared up. That's just me though.

#13 bryan

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Dec 5 2004, 10:30 PM)
Now as for this whole DHT thing, I've never proposed that by eating foods with DHT inhibiting properties, or more specifically 5alpha reductase & 3 alpha dehydrogenase inhibiting abilites, that we would have clear skin.  In terms of the active ingredients in these foods, we would have to take an herbal or vitamin supplement that supplies us with enough of the active component to be effective (some work better than others).

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SweetJade, reading this reminds me that you never replied to my post in that other thread ("Reasons WHY we get acne"). I was looking forward to your response over there! smile.gif

In any event, maybe you could at least answer this one particular question I have for you: what are some of these foods (or supplements) that supposedly have 5a-reductase inhibiting properties? I'd be curious to know what you have in mind...

Bryan

#14 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 10:57 PM

LOL, believe it or not, I'm still an anxiety person. It was always slightly there, but the moment it became full blown was during an incident when I was 12 and it never left me. That's why I also look for ways to destress and control my mind as it's absolutely irrational. I don't get stage fright, I'm not nervious, and yet this thing takes over and well, I guess it's more like a form of perfomance anxiety (even though I could know my sheet music or my speech by heart, I would still flub it up more than the avg. person)...grr. Dealing with that for the past 12 years I know enough to know that my mind has everything to do with it, for if I don't think about it, it won't happen, but all I need is just one second of thought and...

I still lead a life of stress sometimes, but I don't physically feel it as strongly anymore. I generally put relaxing and getting enough sleep ahead of other things, as I refuse to feel that tightening in the chest feeling, but lately I haven't been so lucky (end of school). Yet I don't stress over my acne and when I did have more acne I didn't stress as much over it as I did other things. Now I usually just try my best to surround myself with good, supportive people that make me smile & laugh (laughter therapy) and think positively. Looking at my father, I know I developed this form of anxiety from him, as he has a bit of an OCD issue, and of course I also inherited my risk of acquiring Type II Diabetes from him (reason my diet works), yet I got acne in all the places, and then some, that my mother used to get it at.

So indeed I was diagnosed as being PCOS (HAIR-AN variant) or Insulin Resistant something that happens to both males and females, but it's more obvious in females. Other males on these boards follow similar diets if not more "strict" than mine and have acheived clear skin as well. I do not know their health or hormonal status, only that they had been chronic acne sufferers of more than 5 years. Most people that go on these diets and find that it improves or clears their skin usually do not know their health or hormonal status, so I don't think the diet is specific for that alone. Yet because I know that hormones are the basis for acne production, it (diet) is what I talk about the most as there are plenty of scientific studies behind it.

Do I believe that diet will clear everyone (that doesn't grow out of it)....I don't know. From all the cases I know of, it usually works on some level 9 out of 10 times. It's obvious that not all diets are created equally, that's for certain, and those that are against diet, usually didn't try my diet exactly, yet Ben's diet of increased water intake worked for him so.....hmm. However, I'm more of the mindset that it's best to get a diagnosis from an Endocrinologist and from there proceed to choosing drugs, supplements, diet, etc that are good treatments for one's particular problem. Of course, this is merely just to save people time & wasted hope, yet even things that aren't meant (yet) to work for their problem, may indeed end up working to clear their acne anyway.



#15 SweetJade1980

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE(bryan @ Dec 5 2004, 09:11 PM)
SweetJade, reading this reminds me that you never replied to my post in that other thread ("Reasons WHY we get acne").  I was looking forward to your response over there! smile.gif

In any event, maybe you could at least answer this one particular question I have for you:  what are some of these foods (or supplements) that supposedly have 5a-reductase inhibiting properties?  I'd be curious to know what you have in mind...

Bryan

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LOL, some posts require less of my time to respond to than others and if you've read enough of my posts, you know that I tend to write "books' sometimes. Your's isn't finished (and I should be studying right now)....in the mean time the thread's below and feel free to critique and share you knowledge. You being on the hair forums, I definately want to know what you've learned =)

http://www.acne.org/...t=0#entry331439 (still needs updating)

#16 bryan

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 05:03 AM

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Dec 6 2004, 12:10 AM)
LOL, some posts require less of my time to respond to than others and if you've read enough of my posts, you know that I tend to write "books' sometimes.  Your's isn't finished (and I should be studying right now)..


Excellent! I'll continue looking forward to your response in that thread, when you have the time!

QUOTE(SweetJade1980 @ Dec 6 2004, 12:10 AM)
..in the mean time the thread's below and feel free to critique and share you knowledge.  You being on the hair forums, I definately want to know what you've learned  =)

http://www.acne.org/...t=0#entry331439  (still needs updating)

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Ok, thanks for that link. For some reason I'm unable to find that thread directly, even after going to the Sept. 12 page of this forum (I'm still learning my way around this site). Since I have that open now as a separate window next to this one, I think I'll give some quick comments on a few things that I find in that older post, in sequence from beginning to end (the main things I wanted to say are still in that other thread "Reasons WHY we get acne", but consider these as a few supplementary comments! smile.gif ):

1) "B5". To my major consternation, I see that everyone in this forum, and I mean EVERYONE, insists on using the popular expression "B5" instead of the CORRECT one, which is "pantothenic acid". There is no such thing as "B5". In a place where highly technical issues are discussed like androgen receptors, numerous steroidogenic enzymes, complex fatty acid metabolism, the physiology and anatomy of the pilosebaceous unit, etc. etc., it sticks out like a sore thumb when people use a made-up term like "B5"! Don't you think we should stick to the same precise terminology that doctors and scientists use?? (Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I was about to burst like a fat-laden sebaceous cell! smile.gif )

2) "Well accutane is so effective because of it's anti-androgen and anti- IGF-1 abilities." I'm a little puzzled by that statement. I admit that it's been quite a while since I've looked at any Accutane material, but my understanding is that its mechanism of action in sharply reducing the size of sebaceous glands and lowering sebum production is still largely unknown. YES, I've read a few studies describing its effects at reducing the production of androgen receptors and inhibiting 5a-reductase, but my understanding is that those are really just secondary effects.

3) EGCG (from green tea). I've previously commented on this one. EGCG is poorly absorbed from the GI tract, so it's extremely doubtful to me that the consumption of green tea would have any significant effect at inhibiting 5a-reductase. In this day and age when drug companies have spent untold hundreds of millions of $$$ in the development of drugs to do that reliably and efficiently, I think we would have all heard about it by now if the simple consumption of this ancient bevarge had any impact whatsoever on DHT levels in our bodies. Having said all that, I think there is still a quite reasonable possibility that the TOPICIAL application of EGCG to the skin or scalp can have such an effect. In fact, there's at least one animal study and one small human trial which demonstrated that (citations available on request).

4) Equol. I would expect the response to equol (should it ever actually become available) to be virtually identical to the common (and cheaper) synthetic 5a-reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride.

5) "Now the theory is that since Type II inhibitors work best for Prostate & Androgenic Alopecia, that Type I inhibitors will work best for Hirsuitism and Acne." Huh?? The type II enzyme is almost certainly the major one involved in BOTH androgenetic alopecia AND hirsutism. BTW, I'll mention here once again the very recent study which found that Merck's experimental drug MK386, a specific type I inhibitor, had no effect on acne (citation available on request).

6) Zinc and B6. I see that people on this site are as obsessed with those two nutrients as people on the hairloss sites! biggrin.gif However, the interest in those seem to stem mainly from the well-known Stamatiadis study, which was purely in vitro. The implication in that thread seems to be that taking those nutrients ORALLY is somehow going to help acne. I think scientific evidence for that is entirely lacking, unless someone can cite something for me. Furthermore, I see that there is also discussion about the FORM of B6 (pyridoxine vs. pyridoxal). I'm puzzled by the general insistence for using pyridoxal over pyridoxine; the form which was clearly shown to enhance the activity of zinc against 5a-reductase in the Stamatiadis study was PYRIDOXINE, not pyridoxal! The interest in pyridoxal appears to stem from that oddball in vitro Croation study, which I don't find to be as compelling or as credible as the Stamatiadis study. Finally, even though I doubt that taking supplementary ORAL zinc/B6 (whatever the form) will have a measurable effect on DHT production in the skin/scalp, I suppose that a TOPICAL application could conceivably have such an effect. We need research in that area.

7) "Copper - Both a Type I & Type II inhibitor..." Yes, but like zinc, only in an in vitro study. I strongly doubt that oral supplements of copper would have any measurable effect on DHT in our bodies.

8) Saw palmetto. That stuff has been much-discussed, but the fact remains that oral supplements have no measurable effect on serum DHT levels (citations available on request). I suppose it's possible that TOPICAL applications could have a direct effect on skin/scalp.

9) Gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) and EPA. These two are my real hot-buttons. I want everyone on this site to STOP QUOTING THEM AS BEING 5a-REDUCTASE INHIBITORS. They only do that in their "free" form, not when incorporated into triglycerides in natural oils like borage, black currant, evening primrose, cod liver, flaxseed, etc. Furthermore, they would have to be applied TOPICALLY in their "free" form, not swallowed as a supplement. There are at least a couple of studies (citations available on request) which found that supplementary oral GLA wasn't able to stop the production of DHT. I personally am profoundly interested in the potential use of TOPICAL fatty acids for androgen-dependent disorders like acne and androgenetic alopecia, but thinking that you can get that to work by taking supplements of borage oil, etc., is just wishful thinking.

All comments, questions, and flames about the above points are welcome! eusa_angel.gif

Bryan

#17 SweetJade1980

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:35 PM

Bryan,
LOL, you are waaaay to cool. I'll try my best to honor some of your suggestions but sometimes abbreviating things, like B5 or B6, etc makes it just easier to type. Anyway, what I posted stems from either recent or "new to me" info that I found that indicated those as....androgen antagonists on some level, and also from constant anecdotal evidence on the acne forums as well as on Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) forums & occasional input from hairloss sites. Personally I wouldn't think some of those things would be so effective, like drinking green tea, but there is a patch method for green tea so would that be better? I recall someone on healthboards that actually specified a patch or gel formulation utilizing ECGC only as this would make it do what the studies suggest. Yet, despite that perhaps those "inhibitors" are working just by reducing inflammation as they also have that property as well.

I suppose you would be the king of Type I & Type II Inhibitors (is that ok?) but I'm only stating what after reading & sifting through several sometimes conflicting studies, etc what it seems that they are saying in terms of the roles of each. Yet, while I've never had any results with Saw Palmetto (1800mg) other males (320mg - 640mg) and females (up 3200mg) have had those results. Here's a place where you may find the most support regarding it for acne: http://www.absolutea...hlight=palmetto As for my insistance of the forms of B6, this stems from the knowledge that it can work for or against us in terms of DHT. While there are also anecdotal evidence that Zinc + B6 (don't know the forms) work to not only clear acne on these boards, but also reduce hirustism (on PCOS boards), they are working on some level. Yet when you suffer from acne you FEAR breaking out from something and that's where the need to figure why B6 could do this (as some have broken out from B Complex, which coud've been the B12). Since most companies sell only the Pyridoxine form and someone mentioned that there was another form, I did some research and found that using Pyridoxal could be the difference. It doesn't hurt to try it, since most studies don't use the active forms for some reason, wouldn't it make sense that they would??? I believe that clinically controlled studies are a good thing, but I don't sit around and wait for some study to come out and tell me something is working for me, 10 or 20 years after I've already known this. Good case in point is my diet. I know it works, I know how it works, yet there still isn't a specific study that is telling the rest of the world about the diet-acne connection. If I had known this 10 years ago, like I should've (the info has been out since the 1960s), things for me, and others that have found that diet works, would have been a lot different.

As for accutane, I have a theory and that theory is that for some reason dermatologists and the scientific community aren't quite ready to admit that androgens may be the largest cause of acne. Yet, what do we use to treat acne if not (direct or indirect) androgen antagonists....anti-inflammatories (& exfoilants if need be). That's it, there's essentially nothing else that we use. I think this is why they talk that "we don't understand the mechanisms" crap about accutane. Admittedly there is one thing that isn't understandble, yet I'm thinking it has more to do with the natural cessation of puberty or natural cessation of adult acne, and that is the permanent reduction of sebaceous glands for those that it actually does clear. http://www.sinacne-r...udios/arte.html

I think this has to do mainly with it's IGF-1 inhibiting properties or something, I don't know but I know that whenever I avoid trans fats (boosts IGF-1 production), my pores shrink down to almost nothing (which is how it like it), my dandruff drops, & certain areas, not all, where I have excess hair is reduced or disappears (such as in the enlarged pores on my T-Zone area, nose & around nose). On the other hand, there are people that use accutane up to 5x and STILL have acne and I believe these individuals probably have a hormonal imbalance of some sort (which additional accutane studies have supported). I'm sure you've researched accutane as also either isotretinioin and 13-cis retinoic acid, just as I'm sure you've researched retinA as retinoic acid & all trans retinoic acid (?). That's how I discovered (thanks initially to Cordian's study on Syndrome X) that most everything we use has androgen antagonist abilites whether it is orally, topically or the few that actually manage to do both.

Say, I've heard/read several times that IGF-1 has the ability to call forth androgens, just as androgens has the ability call call forth IGF-1. Have you read something about this? If so, either way, wouldn't accutane still be some form of an androgen antagonist?


Gotta get back to studying,


P.S. Do you mind posting a copy of your thoughts under the original thread. Thanks =)

#18 bryan

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 07:06 PM

Personally I wouldn't think some of those things would be so effective, like drinking green tea, but there is a patch method for green tea so would that be better? I recall someone on healthboards that actually specified a patch or gel formulation utilizing ECGC only as this would make it do what the studies suggest. Yet, despite that perhaps those "inhibitors" are working just by reducing inflammation as they also have that property as well.

Yes, that's exactly what I think! I try to choose my words carefully; I've never meant to imply that I don't think that drinking green tea has any benefit at all for acne, just that if it DOES help acne, it's very likely not doing it by inhibiting 5a-reductase!

I suppose you would be the king of Type I & Type II Inhibitors (is that ok?) but I'm only stating what after reading & sifting through several sometimes conflicting studies, etc what it seems that they are saying in terms of the roles of each. Yet, while I've never had any results with Saw Palmetto (1800mg) other males (320mg - 640mg) and females (up 3200mg) have had those results. Here's a place where you may find the most support regarding it for acne: http://www.absolutea...hlight=palmetto

Thanks. I'll check that out!

As for my insistance of the forms of B6, this stems from the knowledge that it can work for or against us in terms of DHT.

You're referring to that Croatian study, aren't you? I'd like to see corroborating evidence for that one...

While there are also anecdotal evidence that Zinc + B6 (don't know the forms) work to not only clear acne on these boards, but also reduce hirustism (on PCOS boards), they are working on some level.

Possibly. What impresses me is that one in vitro study which found that B6 (if I remember correctly, they used pyridoxine) reduces the cellular response to many steroids, including androgens (I don't have the citation right in front of me, but you probably know which one I'm talking about), by reducing the normal transcription/translation of proteins induced by those hormones. I think something like THAT could possibly explain any anecdotes about beneficial effects from oral zinc/B6, and doesn't require the dubious assumption that they're acting as 5a-reductase inhibitors.

Interestingly, there's a report going back more than 60 years (!) claiming a beneficial effect on acne from oral B6: "The Effects of Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6) on Persistent Adolescent Acne", Jolliffe et al, J Invest Dermatol, August 1942, pp. 143-148. If these findings and anecdotes are real, I strongly suspect that they are due to something BESIDES 5a-reductase inhibition per se.

Since most companies sell only the Pyridoxine form and someone mentioned that there was another form, I did some research and found that using Pyridoxal could be the difference. It doesn't hurt to try it, since most studies don't use the active forms for some reason, wouldn't it make sense that they would???

BTW, most people know that pyridoxine and pyridoxamine are converted into the active pyridoxal form after ingestion, but not so many know that it happens even when pyridoxine is added to in vitro cell cultures! In other words, even cells have the ability to do that transformation (citation available on request). Well, at least the specific cells that were used in that study...

As for accutane, I have a theory and that theory is that for some reason dermatologists and the scientific community aren't quite ready to admit that androgens may be the largest cause of acne. Yet, what do we use to treat acne if not (direct or indirect) androgen antagonists....anti-inflammatories (& exfoilants if need be). That's it, there's essentially nothing else that we use. I think this is why they talk that "we don't understand the mechanisms" crap about accutane. Admittedly there is one thing that isn't understandble, yet I'm thinking it has more to do with the natural cessation of puberty or natural cessation of adult acne, and that is the permanent reduction of sebaceous glands for those that it actually does clear.

That's a good point, and I had overlooked that! biggrin.gif

The fact that Accutane more-or-less PERMANENTLY shrinks sebaceous glands (I've heard that maybe it's not actually permanent, but just very long-lasting in most cases) shows clearly that there is more going on than just standard antiandrogenic and 5a-reductase-inhibiting effects. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly welcome those additional effects, but that dramatic shrinkage of sebaceous glands must surely happen mainly for some other reason(s). I don't see how just the cessation of puberty could maintain such a sharp decline (90% or so) in the size of sebaceous glands, long after the drug is gone from the body.

Bryan

#19 Andrei

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 03:59 PM

This is the thread I am yearning for. I felt it's silly and waste of time to bash the water therapy notion but here it is, which is no way near from a form of bashing. Thanks again for the providing the thought SJ. I am constantly learning from all of you even from Ben (the gift of questioning and skepticism, w/c is good once in a while).