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#21 Denise2

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 06:47 PM

Deja....excuse me, but you are rather new to the discussions here. Ben has been immature and inflammatory. I will say this one more time. Having a disagreement on something is fine. People like myself who mentioned that we had other health problems were quite literally mocked and made fun of by Ben in other threads. Fortunately for Ben, Dan has quite a liberal posting policy. Ben would not have lasted on most message boards; not because of a difference of opinion, but because he flames the boards with insults and mockery. He has an anger management problem, obviously.

If you had mild acne and cured it by the power of thinking positive thoughts, good for you. Many of us who tried rounds of Accutane, various other pills, diets, supplements, etc......who could never cure our acne until we found something that made sense and truly worked don't deserve anyone's scorn or ridicule. We are all here trying to help people. Liver flushing isn't harmful to about 99.9999999 percent of the population. It is quite obvious to me now, that all of my health problems were tied together; this included poor skin health.

And until and unless you have moderate to severe acne that wouldn't budge except for a few things like liver flushing and colon cleansing, perhaps you really just don't understand.

Insisting that those of us who literally tried everything under the sun could just placebo effect our acne away is a ridiculous assertion.

#22 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 07:36 PM

OKay. Apparantly it has just stopped since I have been around.

And no actually I have had pretty severe acne for years now, and have tried pretty much every treatment I could think of (besides maybe accutane)..dermatologists (that I had to pay cash for because I have no insurance)..every kind of cream, facials, working out, water, different diets, colon cleanses, every type of pill, vitamin...

My acne is bad..its not like its just a zit or two.

And like I said. I HAVE done colon cleansing. Helped for maybe a 4 days and then the zits came back as soon as I started eating normally.

Im just saying..if I eat whatever I want now, (and I do) and my skin is clearer now than before..how can it be what I eat?

Im NOT saying it isnt that for you..maybe it is, I dont know. I just think that denying that it IS somewhat placebo effect is silly. WHY does that make you mad? Thats what I dont understand..if it works, who cares?

Current Skin-Care Regimen (A work in progress):

 

Morning:

Gentle wash with DKR cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil (The  lotion alone wasn't hydrating enough)

Skin 79 Korean BB Cream (excellent stuff)

 

Evening:

Gentle Wash with DKR Cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil

 


#23 SweetJade1980

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 08:10 PM

Right, do you think that the placebo effect could sorta do the opposite? Meaning if ALL we ate was a bunch of the junkiest of the junk foods like Ice Cream, Cakes, & Chips and we BELEIVE along with the subliminal messages or innertalk tapes that it's good for us, that we will all still be big, strong, & disease free???

Now, what I do not understand and that some member's aren't grasping is that if someone does something to help another health problem, seemingly unrelated to acne, and their acne also improves, HOW is that a placebo???

Of course, like Snipe said, if you change your diet for some reason, due to vacationing, etc and it turns out to be a healthier non-western diet, and your skin and others' skin improves while eating this food on this island and then once you come back to eating a western diet, it get's worse again, HOW is that a placebo if during this period, you weren't even thinking about an association between acne & food???

I am absolutely not knocking the power of the mind, but I can recall several occasions when I was taking something SPECIFICALLY for another problem and it ended up doing something completely unexpected for me. Once I realized this I did some research and found support as to how these could work to heal several problems instead of just the ones I was hoping it would work for (which it usually didn't work for), but none of them are ever sold for those purposes.

Once again, I am not knocking this!. If we can get everything aligned properly mentally to heal our bodies & thus alter our gene expression I am ALL for it. Yet, that still doesn't explain how it can possibly be a placebo or nocebo when you without an inkling, unknowingly, accidentally "discover" something.
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#24 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 12:03 AM

A person's beliefs and hopes about a treatment, combined with their suggestibility, may have a significant biochemical effect. Sensory experience and thoughts can affect neurochemistry. The body's neurochemical system affects and is affected by other biochemical systems, including the hormonal and immune systems. Thus, it is consistent with current knowledge that a person's hopeful attitude and beliefs may be very important to their physical well-being and recovery from injury or illness.

Why can people change their eye colour instantaneously? Why can people make themselves sick? When a coloured dye was put on warts and told that it would go away, the warts did in most of the cases.

QUOTE
Right, do you think that the placebo effect could sorta do the opposite? Meaning if ALL we ate was a bunch of the junkiest of the junk foods like Ice Cream, Cakes, & Chips and we BELEIVE along with the subliminal messages or innertalk tapes that it's good for us, that we will all still be big, strong, & disease free???


This is impossible because the body can't make macronutrients out of thin air(Protein). We're talking about manipulating things you already have within you or can make within you. The guy in the testimonial said that he ate a junk diet and couldn't get acne. His subconscious was stronger than his conscious will.

QUOTE
Now, what I do not understand and that some member's aren't grasping is that if someone does something to help another health problem, seemingly unrelated to acne, and their acne also improves, HOW is that a placebo???


It isn't a placebo, who said it was? If you're mind isn't directed to a certain thing, it can't help you. Possibly they were less stressed because they did a helpful thing. Maybe they grew out of it. Maybe they started exercising or whatever at he same time. Maybe it was the subconcious.

QUOTE
Of course, like Snipe said, if you change your diet for some reason, due to vacationing, etc and it turns out to be a healthier non-western diet, and your skin and others' skin improves while eating this food on this island and then once you come back to eating a western diet, it get's worse again, HOW is that a placebo if during this period, you weren't even thinking about an association between acne & food???


Again, not a placebo unless you were thinking about how much healthier the food was and that it would help your skin(which is impossible for someone who know has previously thought about diet and acne as snipe has). You see improvements in your skin and you attribute it to the food. I'm sure that was what Snipe was thinking about. It could also be the saltwater, less stress from vacationing, less polutants in the air and water, etc....


QUOTE
I am absolutely not knocking the power of the mind, but I can recall several occasions when I was taking something SPECIFICALLY for another problem and it ended up doing something completely unexpected for me. Once I realized this I did some research and found support as to how these could work to heal several problems instead of just the ones I was hoping it would work for (which it usually didn't work for), but none of them are ever sold for those purposes.


Perhaps, and I never said diet can't play a role in acne. Was that completely unexpected thing a clear face? Did you read something about a certain food helping acne as well as the other thing? The testimonial even said this guy was clear by eating a diet more restrictive than 99% of you eat. Yet it could have all been in the mind because he planned it for acne. I'm sure you didn't get a clear face by coincidence. All that research and tweaking to your diet, suppliemnts, etc... have been the result of acne research which you've said numerous times in posts. You were never 100% clear until you researched havily into acne causes. am I right?

I agree with your last point. It isn't a placebo if you find somethign helps that was totally unrelated to it's original purpose. However, everyone here from their diet to liver flushing did it becuase they believed it could help your acne. That totally unrelated thing could have all been in your subconcious. Yuo are planted with subconcious things all the time and your daily actions are littered with it. If you wre to actually find out the things hidden in your brain thats controlling you, I'm sure that you would find most of them totally unrelated to the activity, yet in reality it drives the activity.

The original idea was that the diet may or may not have worked for this guy. It could have been a placebo or not(he planned the diet heavily towards acne though). The point of this is that the power of his mind was overriding the diet. He ate crap and still didn't break out because his subconscious wouldn't let him internalize those feelings of a certain food being related to acne.

These tapes will work whether you know what they are about or not becuase they bypass our concious. Again, 90% of what you internalize is subconcious. There are things in your brain that you would be shocked you have. Marketers know this and use it to their advantage. WE don't know how we enter a store specifically or which direction we look as soon as we enter, or how we internalize certain store layouts, yet it's all predictable becuase it's stored in our subconcious and reinforced without us knowing it everytime we shop. This tape can be doing hte same with acne, that is reinforcing the image of clear skin so your body responds in kind.









#25 SweetJade1980

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE(blackbirdbeatle @ Dec 1 2004, 11:03 PM)
This is impossible because the body can't make macronutrients out of thin air(Protein). We're talking about manipulating things you already have within you or can make within you. The guy in the testimonial said that he ate a junk diet and couldn't get acne. His subconscious was stronger than his conscious will.
It isn't a placebo, who said it was? If you're mind isn't directed to a certain thing, it can't help you. Possibly they were less stressed because they did a helpful thing. Maybe they grew out of it. Maybe they started exercising or whatever at he same time. Maybe it was the subconcious.

Perhaps, and I never said diet can't play a role in acne. Was that completely unexpected thing a clear face? Did you read something about a certain food helping acne as well as the other thing? The testimonial even said this guy was clear by eating a diet more restrictive than 99% of you eat. Yet it could have all been in the mind because he planned it for acne. I'm sure you didn't get a clear face by coincidence. All that research and tweaking to your diet, suppliemnts, etc... have been the result of acne research which you've said numerous times in posts. You were never 100% clear until you researched havily into acne causes. am I right?

I agree with your last point. It isn't a placebo if you find somethign helps that was totally unrelated to it's original purpose. However, everyone here from their diet to liver flushing did it becuase they believed it could help your acne. That totally unrelated thing could have all been in your subconcious. Yuo are planted with subconcious things all the time and your daily actions are littered with it. If you wre to actually find out the things hidden in your brain thats controlling you, I'm sure that you would find most of them totally unrelated to the activity, yet in reality it drives the activity.

The original idea was that the diet may or may not have worked for this guy. It could have been a placebo or not(he planned the diet heavily towards acne though). The point of this is that the power of his mind was overriding the diet. He ate crap and still didn't break out because his subconscious wouldn't let him internalize those feelings of a certain food being related to acne.

These tapes will work whether you know what they are about or not becuase they bypass our concious. Again, 90% of what you internalize is subconcious. There are things in your brain that you would be shocked you have. Marketers know this and use it to their advantage. WE don't know how we enter a store specifically or which direction we look as soon as we enter, or how we internalize certain store layouts, yet it's all predictable becuase it's stored in our subconcious and reinforced without us knowing it everytime we shop. This tape can be doing hte same with acne, that is reinforcing the image of clear skin so your body responds in kind.

View Post




Blackbirdbeatle,
Thanks for responding in such a polite and thoughtful manner. I would like to say though that I'm stil not 100% clear. I'm 99%+ you could say since adding more vegetables. I still get a zit or two so once those disappear for an extended period of time (noting what I did differently of course) then I'll advertise that I'm 100% clear. =)

I'm glad you said it was impossible to build a human body without macronutrients, yet I know that you believe that we should in general eat healtheir right? So what if people just had a crappy diet of processed packaged foods, wouldn't that be warrent enough for seeing some changes? What if these individuals found that they are clincally allergic to a specific food, wouldn't it make sense to not eat that food? What if that food induces hyperandrogenism when you consume or overconsume it? Wouldn't it make sense to not do these things as they are serologically & possibly visually making your symptoms worse?

Anyway, those unexpected occurances had to do with several things:

Erythromycin = I was taking this many many years ago for a cold and I noticed that my skin improved while I was on it. So the doc let me continue using it for like another week or two. I personally had NEVER come across the use of antibiotics for acne at that time. I never realized people used antibiotics to actually "treat" acne until I was in High School.

Ginkgo Biloba - 5 summers ago I was taking this to improve my memory (getting more sleep worked better) and I noticed that while I was on it my period came and it wasn't painful. So I started taking it only for the days that I would get my period. It continued for 2 or 3 cycles before I researched on it and read that it improves circulation in all areas of the body. Of course knowing what I know now it I should check to see if it also affects prostaglandins too, but at the time that's what I figured how it was helping.

Avandia - This is an Insulin Sensitizing Drug and I noticed that while I was on it my menstrual cramps improved slightly ( I still need the Ginkgo). My acne, which I was specficially taking it for...improved by about 10%...along with the Spiro that got me at about 70% - 85% (usually 70%). Oh and I also gained 5lbs (2mg) and another 5lbs (4mg), but as soon as I stopped the avandia I lost the 10lbs. =(

Natren's Trinity Probitiocs - I had just started taking these and after the 1st or 2nd day I had ran out of my Avandia (had to wait a few days) and my period came on and I didn't feel anything. I was specifically taking them for my acne, which it didn't improve, and I while now I know that they help metabolize & create vitamins to help with hormonal balance, etc, I never bothered to research anything about this at the time.

Gluten - Free Diet - Yup this was specifically because I wanted to eliminate my acne, hirustism, & possible androgenic alopecia. It was a compromise from not having to Calorie Count, Low-Carb, or go on the more "strict" Evil-Lectin Free Diet. However my basis wasn't because "food is evil" or whatever, but because I knew that for people that have Insulin Resistance, we take Insulin Sensitizing Drugs, change our diets, and exercise. The medication wasn't enough so I decided to change my diet. I did do some reading and chatting on a PCOS board and Absolute Acne, but nothing like the science stuff I post on these boards, I was quite naive back then (2.5 years ago). Before I did this, I got tested to see if I was Gluten Intolerant (not) and at the time my Endocrinologist upped my Avandia dose to 4mg, and then due to exhausting myself with researching (cat had urinary crystal infection) had developed......an ear infection. So that meant I also was taking antibiotics...

The infection/inflammation wouldn't go away (still sounds a bit weird) and so I was on my Gluten-Free Diet, antibiotics for 2 months, 150mg of Spiro, and 4mg of Avandia for 3 months during this time. Yet for all that crap, and I was concerned about backlash from the antibiotics, I ended up not only 95% clear (I was eating more foods than I do now & sugar stuff like cookies, ice cream,e tc) but my menstrual cramps disappeared! Unfortunately because I cut the fiber from my diet I ended up with IBS symptoms & periods 2x a month for 3 months out and thought maybe it was the increase in Avandia so I went off of it. My doctor at the time also gave me Metrinozadole (yeast infection treatment but also has been used to treat skin disorders) in case I had developed candida from the antibiotics. While on it the IBS disappeared, but once off it came back (so he upped the treatment dose). Long story short, I was taking quite a bit of medicine, extremely stressing myself out with school, worried somewhat about going off of Avandia during my "Breakout Cycle" for which my skin wasn't worsening but was getting better. It took me several months & several other tests to figure out that I just need to ADD fiber in my diet (I suspected as much) and everything was fine there, and I still couldnt believe the way my skin looked. It took me over a year before I was confident enough to say "YES, it was my diet that was causing me such angst". Now 3 NON "Breakout Cycle" Periods later, and I know it is. Unfortunately I've had to give up other foods as a result, primarily processed & packaged foods or ingredients, but also whole foods such as nuts & bananas as these were problematic for me (I held onto almonds for a looong time hoping it was something else) too.

Yes, so now I do pick things according to my Insulin Resistance induced Hyperandrogenism that research supports will work for several symptoms of IR or Hyperandrogenism....but these supplements, just like the meds don't always work (effectively enough). I don't pick things that will help only my acne, but that I'm hoping will also help my hirsutism, (I really want this gone), possible androgenic alopecia, etc, therefore I primarily look for things dealing with androgens (& IR). One very promising supp that works like Avandia and that others around here have raved about at lesser dosages was NAC. I was testing NAC (starting again this month) but at 1g and didn't notice any results and I had HIGH hopes for this (last 1% of acne and reduced hirsutism). I thought that since my diet worked so well I could get away with taking less than the 1.5g - 3g used in the study. Perhaps I can and I just need to take it for 3 months or maybe I need to increase it as perhaps these are the actuall effective doses, who knows (it's great how we can rationalize things huh?).

I went off of spiro for 6 months to confirm that it wasn't contributing to my improved skin (like somehow it alone would work better than when it was combined with BC or Avandia) and to see if I needed if for my hirsutism as that had also improved alot....LOL. So I tried Saw Palmetto at 1800mg (some women take double this) and well, not only did it not improve my last 1% of acne but it didn't stop my hirustim (like Spiro did) and I ended up with growth in new areas =0

That's one of the things that I'm curious about with these tapes. For me, I know that acne formation has to do with a defect in the androgen receptor somewhere (which can call upon inflammatory products). Diet is enough to clear a % of peoples skin and help reduce hirsutism, but it won't eliminate hirsutism. Apparently the only way to stop excess hair growth or androgenic alopecia once a hair follicle has been sensitized (it's always sensitized) is to BLOCK androgen action or further reduce production of androgens (which would require meds or supps). Therefore I will always, unless laser works, have to use something to at least BLOCK androgen's activity. Yet if we can mentally alter our gene expression so that we can fix such defects...problem may indeed be solved!

Take care

P.S. Other dietary changes in the past failed to yield such results. I avoided dairy (regular & then organic) for several months before I went back to it as I saw no change. However, through middle school, I adamently avoided Chocolate anything and Soda and never saw any results. Talk about faith, some people give up within a few weeks or months, yet I avoided (99.9%) those items for over 10 years.
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#26 Doberwoman

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 05:07 AM

SweetJade, for another "unexpected" result -- a few years ago when I first stopped taking antiandrogens, I got a rash of acne and started rubbing EPO into it -- I'd read somewhere that people with acne tend to have lower levels of GLA in their sebum, and since EPO is high in GLA I thought it was worth a go. The label on the bottle said that it was used "to promote healthy skin", so I thought that was a good sign. What I didn't realise at the time is that some people believe that EPO helps to regulate your menstrual cycle -- so I wasn't expecting any change there at all. And yet, several months later (and still applying EPO to my skin), I realised that I was bang on schedule -- I never had been before in my life (and was in my mid-30s by then). It may just be coincidence, but I don't believe it can be attributed to a placebo effect, as I had no idea that EPO was considered anything to do with hormone regulation.

As for laser -- a bit OT, but have you had any info on it? I think you asked me about it when I'd just started it. It's working really well for me. Apparently it works best if you have coarse and very dark/black hair and very light skin (my skin isn't that light, but my hair is nearly black and the combination seems to be good enough for me to get the desired effect). I've had the back of my neck and face done, and the difference is amazing. It takes a few repeats (because not all of your hair is in the right stage of growth at any given time for the laser to be effective) but after 2x on my face and 3x on my neck, hair reduction so far appears to be about 80% on my face and 75% on my neck. the worst thing about it (from my POV) is that you can't use any hair removal method except for shaving for 6 weeks prior to treatment. I felt so self-conscious shaving twice a day and still having 5 o'clock shadow -- but after the first treatment, the hair was reduced enough so that the 5 o'clock shadow wasn't a problem anymore. If you can afford it and have the right complexion/hair combination, I'd definitely recommend it. But you need to be careful about what kind of laser you use -- apparently some places call their service laser hair removal but use something called "pulsed light" instead, which I'm told isn't as effective. I go to a place called "Lasercare" and it is staffed with nurses and a consultant dermatologist, so I felt more confident of them than going to a beauty parlour to have it done... (no idea if the same company exists in the US -- there may be some place with the same name, but it probably wouldn't be the same company as the UK is linked with the NHS in some sort of private finance initiative)

#27 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 11:17 AM

I agree with you that if you had absolutely no intention of clearing your acne(concious or subconcious), than it's not a placebo. How could it be? Anyway, what I'm saying is that we do have things hidden in our subconcious that guide our beliefs and actions in ways we aren't aware of. As I said before, you could listen to the acne free tape and it could say better memory on the cover. When you listen to it though you would still get hte subconcious belief that you see clear skin and that you're clear and acne is no longer a worry for you and it will show, even if you thought you were getting a better memory(and if you did get a better memory, then THAT would be a placebo).

I also agree that diet does play a role in healthy life, and I eat accordingly. However I don't believe that pasta, cheeses, whole grain breads are bad for you lke some here. Just look at the cultures that live the longest and are the healthiest. They all eat diets high in the foods that many here condem. Even the Japanese, who eat tons of iodine foods and white rice don't have more acne than us and live longer. Yes they didn't always eat white rice, BUT even with the addition of it they still live longer and healthier than us.

That being said I think that many things work for acne. BP, SA, BHA, AHA, prescriptions, natural topicals that do the same thing as the OTC ones like ACV, lemon, baking soda, etc...... However these are on an ongoing basis and don't reach the root of the problem(except if you're lucky enough to get clear on 1 round of accutane with no bad effects).

Acne is hormonal and no one is ever going to convince me otherwise. Everything that happens to create a pimple is rooted in hormones. If it is an allergy than that "pimple" isn't really a pimple in the sense that we know it. It's more of a boil or something in reaction to a food. I think some foods play a role because they affect the hormones either by restricting formation of undesirable byproducts of certain hormones, or they just regulate them better.

I also think that the mind is the best way to control these hormones. Maybe the guy in the testimonial's diet really did work BUT the tape offered him an easier and more powerful way to eliminate his acne. Pretty soon with these tapes(I know from experience) the beliefs will be ingrained in your mind and you won't need the tapes anymore. It allowed him to enjoy the occasional treat such as ice cream without breaking out. He can have a beer or eat some cake an not get a zit anymore and that's why I posted this link, becuase it can give you freedom that you really deserve. You won't live longer just becasue the other guy eats junk food every once in a while but othwise lives a healthy life. It's been shown in many cultures.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said it was about placebos because that's not always the case(although it does happen in the subconcious more often than you think).



#28 Denise2

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 01:53 PM

Deja: As I've stated on many occasions, acne is a puzzle. Colon cleansing may only address one part of your acne dilemma. I had to attack three different things when trying to get clear. I had to get colonics (I've done "colon cleansing/fasts/detoxes for years), I had to liverflush, and I had to get the source of my out-of-control candida problem, and that was, I had to remove silver mercury fillings. Mercury leaks and causes candida issues for many people. Candida causes acne. There can be more than one particular health issue. That's why it pays to do your research and do what feels right to you. When I liverflushed, it literally cured me of severe chemical allergies. I used to walk into a craft store and pass out from the plastics, or when I was pumping gas my eyes would burn like someone was putting a hot poker in my eye. My eyes would burn like crazy until I left the offending chemical. I also had symptoms of multiple schlerosis on 2 occasions in my thirties. I have been tested and have high levels of mercury and pcb's. Both of these heavy metals/chemicals cause candida, immune suppression, etc.......the liver cannot detox heavy metals properly if it is clogged and not working properly.

So what I am saying is that I had to fight three areas tenaciously before I became clear and stayed clear (like SJ I get a few zits here and there, but nothing big). And....my skin problems were definitely tied to other health problems I had.

I tried the following in the past to get clear:

1. antibiotics
2. fasts/detoxes
3. microderm
4. blood cleansing herbs
5. msm
6. retin a and other topicals
7. various/special diets
8. birth control pills
9. saw palmetto herb
10. essential fatty acids
11. milk thistle
12. artichoke extract
13. 35% tca peel
14. v-beam laser treatments
15. vitamin b-6

None of these worked, and by the time I started liverflushing, my whole body was literally shutting down. I was having allergic reactions to everything I ate, and my thyroid gland was very swollen. It was terrible. All I could do was sit around thinking: Ok....if everything I eat makes me break out, and if everything I eat makes my thyroid gland go bezerk, then what the heck is gonna happen? Am I supposed to starve to death or what? It was a very hard time because I just simply didn't understand that my liver was severely congested. I had tried milk thistle, artichoke extract, and swedish bitters too, but they all seemed to break me out, not help my acne. I know now that the herbs in swedish bitters are pro-estrogenic, and that milk thistle and artichoke extract were helping to detox me, but at a rate that my body couldn't handle.

I have none of these problems anymore. I understand the ROOT cause of my acne, as well as my other health problems as well, and I am in very good health. Doctors just couldn't help me because they are trained to treat illnesses with prescription drugs, not address root causes. That is just simply how they are trained.

#29 Denise2

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 02:03 PM

double post....somehow.

#30 BenKweller

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:08 PM

While I try to comprehend the mound of talk people have posted, let's restate 2 facts:

1) You don't need to hold out a religious faith belief in something for it to have an amazing effect because of the placebo effect. You don't need to sit and think, "This food will cure acne!" for it do it.

2) People usually believe in holistic welfare of their body -- so if you are treating a problem with, let's say, you're gastro. system and you feel better, your acne may improve. Not because of your system causing the acne but simply because of you feeling better altogether.

#31 BenKweller

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:13 PM

... That was fun.

Anyway--

BBB made some good points but some that are just false and that brain scientists have disputed and proven: "I agree with you that if you had absolutely no intention of clearing your acne(concious or subconcious), than it's not a placebo. How could it be? It very well could be -- the placebo effect is often very subconcious; I could go in and have a tooth that was bothering me worked on and improve other unrelated body systems because of my mind. When something is bothering you and your neurochemistry is out of whack as a result, many things go wrong.

"Insisting that those of us who literally tried everything under the sun could just placebo effect our acne away is a ridiculous assertion."

I see nothing wrong with my assertion. As long as you get better, be happy that you're better; you, of all people, should be happy that all you needed to cure your acne and "health problems" was a good shot of positivity after digesting some oil.

#32 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 04:54 PM

None of my theories have been disproven. If they were, I wouldn't post them. I'm not saying it's the final answer but there certainly haven't been anything substantial to make them false(and there have been many studies that have tried yet they all reinforce it in the end). There may be something in the future that blows this out of the water and I'm not closed to that idea.

Further, I always said that a placebo can happen consciously or subconciously. I said a placebo effect doesn't happen if one thing happens while thinking about another. Eg. You are focused on losing weight and so you eat broccoli. All of a sudden the broccoli cures your cancer(hypthetical situation). It's not a placebo because you never thought of it as curing cancer either subconciously or conciously, it just proves that broccoli actually cures cancer(again hypothetical).

I also said that many placebo effects happen that you aren't aware of because it's hidden in your subconcious, I'm talking about things not in your mind at any level.

In short a placebo is solely based on a substance that has no real effect, it makes your mind believe it does and your body acts accordingly, like in the first paragraph of one of my responses.

BP, SA, retinol, etc... are not placebos although my theory is that most diets are placebo based. In other words they don't really help, they create that positive reinforcement that it does. Liverflushing, colon cleansing, diet etc... are just my hypothesis that they are placebos. They may actually help but until research is done, the evidence I've come to has proven otherwise.

There is a common saying that if you treat a cold it will last a week but if you leave it alone it will last seven days.

#33 SweetJade1980

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:06 PM

I understand.

I agree. Acne is usually caused by hormones as androgens are respondible for the production of sebum, and a cascade of additional events that ends in clogged pores & inflammation results. Yet no one that is skeptical on this board will accept that our diets can affect our hormonal balance no matter how many 100s of studies I post here that shows that it can (in a multitude of ways). However, there's already one study in process that specifically says Deit & Acne and is focusing on the Glycemic aspect and we shall see. Funny, most innovative studies involving diet & acne or other health problems aren't done in the U.S.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15294556 (primary concern is that they only used males instead of comparing males & females and that there seems to be a bit much fat)

Anyway, I absolutely believe that if listening to those tapes can cure acne, then everyone should do it. It's only $30 vs. the $50 for the hypnosis CD and if it means you can be clear AND eat all the food you want again, so be it. My only concern would be for those that may still have an underlying health problem, but since most people don't think about those things until it's too late, I look forward to hearing about how clear those who try this are after 1, 3, 6 months and so forth ;-)
These are not steps, but stages some people progress through when going from conventional to holistic medicine. Stage 2 is how I became 99%+ Clear, eliminated my dysmennorhea, significantly reduced my sebum & pore size, etc & is my predominant method.

Stage 1 (Treatment):
* (Daily) Isocare Skin Control Cleanser, Dream Products Customized Natural Face Lotion & Coppertone Sport Spray Sunscreen (mixed)
* (Sporadically) spot treat w/ anti-inflammatory (neosporin, hydrocortisone, salicylic acid) or a skin lightener (post-inflammatory pigmentation) to treat stubborn cystic/nodular acne that appears due to unknowingly or knowingly ingesting a food/ingredient that breaks me out (I do my best to avoid these foods). If you cover treated area w/ a bandaid, it makes product more effective.

Stage 2 (Prevention): "cheapest" method ~ Since Aug. 2002
* Follow a Gluten-Free, Trans-Fat Free, Dairy-Free and No Added Sugar diet for my Insulin Resistance/Hyperandrogenism (Silent Chronic Inflammatory Syndrome)
* Avoid ALL types of nuts and the Genus Prunus (almonds, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, cherries), Bananas, Pineapples, Cottonseed oil, Artificial Sweetners.

Stage 3 (Correction):
* 1/18/08 Ultimate Colon Cleanse (30 day program)

Research:
* Developing functional foods for those with acne & other special needs (assuming there's a defficiency).
* Developing good & "safe" formulas for various hormonal issues for women. Correction stage may resolve this for some.

#34 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:29 PM

My sister is clear and has been since summer on this tape. She's 19 and may have grown out of it but her face cleared in a few weeks and she listened to this CD 1 h each day.

Have you found the free Mp3's? Try listening to them for 1 h each day for one month and see if you notice a difference or if anyone notices on in you.

Check your PM sweetjade.

#35 Doberwoman

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 03:04 AM

Denise2 (and any others who may wonder) -- I can sort of understand why BenKweller sometimes gets rude (although I'm sure Ben you'll disagree with my analysis). Not that I agree with it, and the dogmatic approach of "I haven't had this experience so all the rest of you are dead wrong if you think you have" is particularly wearying-- but I used to be guilty of it myself.

I'll explain: back in the days when I believed that diet had no effect on acne, I had people hounding me not to eat chocolate, to stay away from fried foods, etc. I had tried eliminating one or other of these things, but with no success (I realise now that it was because I was still eating a lot of dairy, which is one of my main dietary triggers). And I had a dermatologist telling me that diet had absolutely no effect on acne. I started to become irritated with people telling me to change my diet when a professional (who'd studied at university for 8 years and spent his entire professional life working with skin disorders) said it didn't matter -- how can they think they know better than the professionals?, I used to think. They don't know anything! And because I really like my junk food, it irritated me no end to have people constantly pointing out a problem that I thought they knew nothing about, telling me to give up something I loved when I "knew" they were wrong. The difference on this board however is that the people who are responding do know something about it, because they have gone through it themselves.

#36 Denise2

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 07:00 AM

Doberwoman: Thanks for the reply. I agree with what you are saying. I heard the same exact thing from my dermatologist too. "Food has no effect on acne whatsoever....."

I do agree with you that it is just human nature to agree with the "experts" when it comes to medical issues.

At least people like BBB can disagree without being immature and inflammatory. BK could learn a lot from him.

#37 agentcooper

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 11:10 AM

"Dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Carry on."
"Please ignore Ben Kweller. He had a total of 2 zits his whole life "
"Grow up, Ben."
"I'll have your butt dealt with in a hurry."


denise, these are all comments you have made to ben. you guys are about equal in making inflamitory remarks to each other. don't be a hypocrite, please. eusa_naughty.gif

#38 Denise2

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 01:53 PM

Yeah, AC, that's exactly in the same category as making fun of people's health problems and calling them idiots and many other names. Oh, and signing in under a different ISP number to post as "flushie", and outright LYING about things I've said, then buckling when pressured to post proof that I "defended" Hulda Clark. Please...a few impatient comments pale in comparison. People have said much worse than me, I would happily remind you. eusa_dance.gif eusa_angel.gif As for the "I will have your butt dealt with in a hurry"....that was said why? Because BK was engaging in personal attacks? Now now.... eusa_naughty.gif don't show bias..... wink.gif

But please keep defending Ben, it's very special. biggrin.gif

#39 BenKweller

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 05:46 PM

1) I didn't post as flushie. I know you've probably published a book on some elaborate theory about how I went on the internet and spoofed a log in name but I didn't. I've told you time and time again to get Dan to send you the server log reports and you may even find that I was online at the same time as flushy. Regardless -- stop accusing me because it's simply not true.

2) "Yeah, AC, that's exactly in the same category as making fun of people's
health problems and calling them idiots and many other names.

I've never made fun of ANYONE's health problems. I think acne is a serious condition that people should try to fix since it's not something I'd wish on anyone. And for the record, I call no one an idiot unless they call me one first or say something so dumb that it deserves a check on their misstatements.

3) "But please keep defending Ben, it's very special."

You love to complain of how much you're mistreated but then you post something as retarded as that because someone points out that you're just as offensive as I am? That's quite immature; at least I have the insight to see I can be inflammatory.

#40 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 06:03 PM

I simply have never seen him post anything rude. But you are right Denise..I haven't been around here more than a month or two.

But still..if he isn't being rude now......

wacko.gif

Current Skin-Care Regimen (A work in progress):

 

Morning:

Gentle wash with DKR cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil (The  lotion alone wasn't hydrating enough)

Skin 79 Korean BB Cream (excellent stuff)

 

Evening:

Gentle Wash with DKR Cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil