healing2.0

Used the derminator for the first time and....

28 posts in this topic

Im curious if the depth on the digital readout is accurate. First of all the pain is much....much less than using a dermastamp or roller. Could be bc it penetrates and gets out of the skin so quickly...maybe the needles are smaller. However when I put my nail close to the needling end of the device I had to get a lot closer for it to hit my nail than what I think the length on the digital readout indicates. Im saying its only coming out half as far as the digital readout is claiming.  Also I did 1.5mm on my neck for 20 minutes straight with NO BLEEDING!!!! It left my neck red but there was no blood. I know Im not suppose to use 1.5mm on my neck but 1.0mm was doing nothing. Yes I have locked in the 9 needle thing by pressing it in and turning it clockwise. I had to use 2.25mm on my entire face to get bleeding. I would love for this thing to be penetrating as it says on the readout bc the pain is SOOOOOOOO much less than with my stamp and roller but Im just not sure of its accuracy. Anyone else feel this way?20170418_011136.jpg20170418_011117.jpg20170418_011148.jpg20170418_011049.jpg20170418_011056.jpg


"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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I own the Derminator too, and also have my doubts about the actual penetrative depth of the needles. I feel little if any pain and get just redness unless I go to 2.25mm depth, then I get pinpoint bleeding. I would mount the handheld part vertically on a level surface and use a micrometer to measure out a distance to a paper and lower it until it penetrates at maximum depth. A second test could involve two papers, to see if it's not the depth, but the power that could be potentially an issue. I don't know what sort of surface tension skin has, but I assume if it can punch through two sheets of paper at maximum depth then skin should be roughly the same, maybe. I'm no scientist. The needle specifications are the same as many professional devices, so it's not that they're somehow responsible for less bleeding. The speed supposedly causes less trauma to the skin, but is only a theoretical claim from the manufacturer insofar as I can find.  Let me know if you find out! :)

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@healing2.0 I went back and forth with them when I first got my derminator saying it was not coming out enough at 2mm, similar to your situation. They said it was so quick even at a slow setting that it was hard to see. You almost have to do (since I know your a photographer) macro setting to see it in slow motion. I never use their auto needle adjust and time setting. I set the depth and finish when I feel I am done. They told me they test it before it leaves with a metal plate and a test needle to make sure there is enough depth from the actual needles. Someone suggested once using a jello cup and seeing how far the needle marks went down into the jello. 

Just like any microneedle device, scars are fibrotic, thus devices do not go the full extent into the skin because its tough and resists treatment, so you would be getting a bit less on tough scars. 

One does not need to bleed to get a good treatment, the face has many more veins and arteries than the neck, which takes longer to heal. Someone in the past was doing derminator followed by TCA peels, of course use caution when doing things like this, as the acid would go much deeper with possible complications. Please do a small test spot first. 

Yes it goes very fast, the only design flaw is I wish we could get 3mm from it and the blood that makes its way to the magnet chamber and must be cleaned. I wish no blood got in there. 

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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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I also did not use the timer and just set it to 2.25mm after I noticed 1.5mm was doing so little. One of my cameras can do 120fps slow motion and Im gonna try to make a video today or tomorrow to see how much of the needle comes out of the device. I do know however that when I put it on the peak (I guess you could call it) of my cheek bone that it was bottoming out on muscle or bone and pushing back at me which I guess is a good sign that its penetrating. I was stopping and washing mine every 10 minutes or so. it lookes perfectly clean to me after 90 minutes of straight needling. I used very very hot water and a water pick on the needles. I pressed hard and held it on the visable scars but I really wish there was a 15 or 18 needle cartridge so I could just left and press...lift and press to get better coverage. I'll see if my dad will hold it for me now and I'll get my camera.


"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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I took pics and video. Im gonna redo the video tomorrow outside where I have more light so the quality isnt so bad. But in saying that I did not see the needles penetrating outword to the full extent its capable of doing. here are some pics but I'll do more tomorrow.

CY9I0126.jpg

CY9I0130.jpg

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"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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The single needles from the derminator are total crap. They come out the first few times. After that they just don't come out at all. 

When i use the derminator at 2.0 mm, i will bleed but i have to do several passes before the blood occur. Also the pain compared to a dermastamp is nothing. I use the 2.0mm without any numbing cream.

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@healing2.0 Thank you for posting that. That's what I thought in the past. I even asked Sarah, who makes (Her Store owndoc.com) the Derminator to do 3mm needles but did not get a response concerning that. The Engineer who created the Derminator emailed me (see quote below). It would be helpful once you get your other video / photos, if you can also contact them and say you feel your not getting the full needles length and present your proof, and several others felt the same thing.  We really need 3mm Needles and a Firmware update to use them. I don't think they will do bigger wider needle head (for the body), but even the professional machines don't do this, unless you get into RF microneedling.  

If anyone is daring on ebay they sell these derampen replacement needles (see below) of different types, I don't know if they will fit right, maybe you can contact the seller and see or try. I know Sarah is very anti "razor blades" as she calls them , they are not defined round needles but differently shaped like blades (most likely the wafer type). I have asked Sarah for other needle types but she seems to only carry the two kinds. Also it would be nice to not have blood go in the magnet chamber, that is my complaint as well as it can rust the magnets. It's still the best unit out there, better than dermapens and professional $1600 pens the doctors use. Just needs tweaks.

@Noa27 I also urge you to contact Sarah and tell her about the single needle experience, and any complaints with the unit. Say several others on Acne.org had the same experience. I would ask for longer needle length, that should be a firmware update and just longer needles (eg. 3mm).


s-l1600.jpg



 
Quote

The needles surge out because I changed the firmware - some people did not clean the motor after blood entered and the magnet got stuck so initially the needle base even comes out a bit, that's way too deep and you can see that this happens (too deep initial surge) on the dept gauge.  The needles are about 2.5 mm long so the base should never come out.

Needling multiple sheets of paper will not work at all, it would be like needling wood - you'd need a power tool to penetrate that deep in wood, not even our machine can do that.

It's very simple: I do not think it is possible (I can not think of any conceivable way) that your unit shows correct depth on all depth settings while not needling at the correct depth.

I calibrated your machine by placing a sacrificial cartridge on the tip and letting it needle a sheet of metal 4 times. The machine then verifies that all 4 sensor values are in range and near-identical.  Then I let it needle 4 times on max. depth. Againm the firmware verifies the correct range and tolerance.

Then I let the unit run for half a minute on all depths and I observe how deep it needles and whether the depth gauge is correct, etc.

We have never heard of your issue, except when the cartridge is not mounted correctly. In that case, this will indeed exactly happen as you describe. Correct needling depth indicated but not needling very deep.

*** You can verify that you have NOT mounted the cartridge correctly when you're able to pull it off with some force. If you can, you have not pushed hard enough before twisting 90 degrees. ***

Please note that several customers swore they mounted the cartridge correctly in a long exachanges of email, and they all eventually said they found out they were wrong after all..

It's a good idea to try the single needle cartridge. It has a slightly different geometry and a totally different fit (new ones are very loos and will fly off if they're not properly twisted on, older ones are very tight).

It will also be much better visible how far the needle comes out.

Best regards,
F. Inventor of Derminator


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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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2 minutes ago, beautifulambition said:
@Noa27 I also urge you to contact Sarah and tell her about the single needle experience, and any complaints with the unit. Say several others on Acne.org had the same experience. I would ask for longer needle length, that should be a firmware update and just longer needles (eg. 3mm).

If anyone is daring on ebay they sell these derampen replacement needles of different types, I don't know if they will fit right, maybe you can contact them and see or try. I have asked Sarah for other needle types but she seems to only cary the two kinds. Also it would be nice to not have blood go in the magnet chamber, that is my complaint as well as it can rust the magnets.

s-l1600.jpg

 
I wanted to message Sarah, but i don't see a emailadres on owndoc.com to mail her. 

Something just crossed my mind. My doc used the dermapen on my cheeks at 2.5 mm depth. The bleeding that i've gotten from the treatment was much more than i now got from the derminator. I must say that i use the 2.0 mm, but still, that gives me something to think.
2 minutes ago, beautifulambition said:
@Noa27 I also urge you to contact Sarah and tell her about the single needle experience, and any complaints with the unit. Say several others on Acne.org had the same experience. I would ask for longer needle length, that should be a firmware update and just longer needles (eg. 3mm).

If anyone is daring on ebay they sell these derampen replacement needles of different types, I don't know if they will fit right, maybe you can contact them and see or try. I have asked Sarah for other needle types but she seems to only cary the two kinds. Also it would be nice to not have blood go in the magnet chamber, that is my complaint as well as it can rust the magnets.

s-l1600.jpg

 
I wanted to message Sarah, but i don't see a emailadres on owndoc.com to mail her. 

Something just crossed my mind. My doc used the dermapen on my cheeks at 2.5 mm depth. The bleeding that i've gotten from the treatment was much more than i now got from the derminator. I must say that i use the 2.0 mm, but still, that gives me something to think.

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I am glad to read more experiences with this before I purchase one. I am even more hesitant now.

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@ericb12 I don't know why, it's still the best machine out there. Better than any Dermapen, that's for sure. We are talking about small details here. The only ones who use 3mm needles are advanced users, as you can hurt your skin, I think that is why she cannot sell that, it would be considered a medical device (aka scalpel). These are small details really. Dermapens tear and damage your skin, I have even had professional treatments with microtearing from a $2000+ dollar pen, the motors jam and they are not powerful enough. We are talking here with small quirks or improvements we would need when the machine is fully functional and better than anything on ebay / amazon. They have a 5 year warranty, most Chinese companies do not. I would still buy one today if I had a choice.

** Please "Like" my response above; 2016-12-08_052923.jpg  As a volunteer encouragement helps! |::wiggle:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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@beautifulambitionYou say small details but if im not getting at least 1.5mm of penetration then I feel like Im making my face red for 4 or 5 days for no reason. I feel like 2.25mm on the readout isnt even 1.5mm in reality. I hope Im wrong though. I want this machine to work as said bc of how much less pain I feel. I feel like Im getting 1.0mm or slightly more but I hope I am fooled by the machine's speed and needle diameter. Sorry I didnt get to do the video. It was tax day.

"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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That's my point, it's not really a small detail in a case like this.

The Dermapen (at least the one that I purchased) is only useful as a stamp. I have not dragged it across my skin since I realized it was tearing after the first treatment.

I am considering just going back to the 2mm regular dermaroller.

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@ericb12 I think were mixing communication ;-P I was encouraging ericb12's trepidation on the derminator. Having tried needles, rollers, stamps, dermapens, and the derminator, I think the latter is the best. 5 year warranty is unheard of, no micro tears (you tear big time w/ rollers), lower risk of infection, over use by rollers /  bent needles /faulty needles that come out. By its very design Rollers do not go into the skin 100%. But if needles work for you great, you do that.

@healing2.0 Back to the details... I am all about improving things. Will be interesting to hear the results of your video. I had thoughts about putting double magnets in but never tried. I suppose we could find a way to lengthen the stamp core that gets hit by the magnet (duck tape). Scars by their very nature are fibrotic, so your not going to get the full depth of any device.  Get a jello cup, see how deep the needles penetrate, I am sure you can use a ruler if close enough to the side. 1.5mm is all we need to do microneedle, so if we set it higher, it should hopefully hit that. Thanks!
 

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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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I understand.

It just seems like a big purchase if the needles do not even go deep enough to puncture/bleed, which I have read on other boards.

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This video was shot at 120fps and then slowed down to 12fps at 1/4000th of a second. It appears to be "missing" sometimes and not coming all the way out or possibly 120fps isnt fast enough to capture it every time it pops out. Tell me if that looks like 2.25mm to you. I'll try to get something to measure it with next time and put behind it. Speed is set to fast. Im also curious if it has enough power behind it to drive into the skin at 1.5mm or if the skin pushes back on it and limits it even more. If the embedded video doesnt show a link is below.

 


https://vimeo.com/213883776

 

Edited by healing2.0
embedded video not showing

"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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I can see it "missing" now and again! I work in mm alot at work and that looks like 1.5ish a majority of the time ( although i suppose its hard to tell) Looking at the video it also seems to come out shorter at times aswell as the missing. 

I tried the derminator the other week at 1.5 and it didn't even make me slightly red which i was pleasently surprised with as i was dreading the pain and redness so to get neither made me happy. However you would like to think that it was going as deep as you wanted it to. 

I love the machine for its price and ease of use though. I thought it was just me that thought it wasnt going as deep as i set it so i never said anything in fact part of me thought i must be using it wrong.

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@healing2.0  Thanks for the video. GREAT stuff!!  Yikes!! Sometimes it appears to not come out at all, not come out far enough, or even come out at a slight angle.  Not sure I want to spend money on this right now (or at all), especially with the Canadian dollar being so crummy.   

:smileys_n_people_8:
 

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I want it to work as advertised. I am red like ive been beaten after using it but I used it on 2.25mm for 90 minutes-2 hours and I pressed down hard. maybe theres a way to extend the magnet to make it come out farther. SLIGHTLY FARTHER. Im not gonna try it but....someone else can and tell me how it goes :) I also noticed I had much less bleeding on fast which lead me to believe that it might be missing or not hitting the skin with as much force as slow to get maximum penetrating force.

Im going to do a fingernail test in slow motion once I get my cameras back from having their sensors cleaned friday. Also I read about how it is claimed that people dont press the needles in hard enough before locking it. I cant make it anymore flush against the device without breaking it. Is there some special technique thats an ancient chinese secret as to how to put in the needle cartridge?


"To live is to suffer...but to survive is to find meaning in the suffering"


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Wow... Right now i feel kinda scammed. I run out of cartidges, so i wanted to order them, but now i'm not so sure....  Maybe i just order the manual dermastamp. 

It's a bummer. I found it so easy to use! Thanks healing, for all the info.

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First of all I don't think anyone is being scammed, I don't. Have you been on ebay or Amazon, cheap vibrator dermapens are the same cost if not more (cheap Chinese junk). Let's be proactive and not create conspiracy. Please contact owndoc and get any issues addressed. The "engineer" who created the unit will email with you if you ask customer service for this.  http://owndoc.com/support/


120fps is not fast eough to capture it at full speed. So we cannot be sure. It look like to me there is a pattern when it avoids coming out (because the speed is so fast) or the camera is catching frames and not the minute detail of the fastest speed. I suspect, on the supper fast mode it does not have enough time to cycle with the magnet and being pushed out. It is being hit with the magnet too fast and the spring cannot respond. When @healing2.0 get's his camera cleaned, I would like to see if at slow it functions differently. I suspect it will by the simple mechanics of when you do something overly fast, how does it have time to function properly with springs that slow down the process. Even if it did not come out the same every time, maybe they built that in their margin of error, as one spot could get several punctures from the needle due to the speed.

I was told by the engineer that it is "not supposed to reach the end of the needle housing." Meaning it does not fully extend to the end of the tip at the full length. I suppose they did this to avoid it coming out or hitting the base of the needle bed.

Regarding blood, ... one can microneedle and not bleed. You do not need to bleed to have effective microneedling. For instance skin varies, some people's skin is thick and some thin. Others have a lot of fat. Some skin is fibrotic and thus would not receive the full length. This happens on $100K RF microneedling machines fyi, scars don't get the full length (fibrosis). I have read in various sources it is not necessary to bleed. When we bleed it's for the prp benefit, nothing else.

Anyone who did not bleed, push in on the skin as @healing2.0 said, and put the speed to slow, I bet you will at least have a deeper needle. 

They test the thing using metal plates, so I think it's pretty strong, ... I think it's a speed and accuracy thing. Anyone ever see the I Love Lucy episode where she packs candy.

Again if you have any issues, test the unit, and email them / make a support ticket on owndoc.com, let us know what you figure out.

<Using too Fast a Speed on Microneedle ;-P>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NPzLBSBzPI

 


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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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@ericb12 I have, they are good products, much better quality control than other mironeedles. Goto their website, click in the bar on the picture of all the other rollers and stamps, it's quite informative. Sarah has been around for quite some time, she used to have a huge microneedling blog. By the way I get $0 compensation or benefit from suggesting them, there are hundreds of microneedle rollers ans stamps that are all made of various quality in China. 

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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016-12-08_052802.jpg :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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Thanks, that's why I asked, because my last dermaroller and my dermapen were both from China. So I would like to upgrade in quality from a trusted source.

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I was trying to place an order with owndoc, what is this about blacklisting or personal information being made public? Were any of you concerned about this? It almost seems threatening.

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Hi,  I have used my Derminator 3 or 4 times now.   I used the Copper Peptide Serums I bought with the machine and could of hours before needling.   I used fast at 1.50 with the timer on 1:23 minutes.   My face is still very red and now it looks like I have small white pimples.   Did I do something wrong??   I find it very hard to clean the needle with a Qtip because the cotton sticks to the needles.   I soak it in alcohol.   Does anyone else clean it like this?   Any help is much appreciated!! 

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