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#61 BenKweller

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 09:00 PM

Nope -- I've seen that site; it's bs.

#62 ChristineM

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 10:28 PM

Um, care to go into detail why? Maybe a point by point explanation as to why it's "bs"? That's not exactly a scientific term or rebuttal smile.gif The article seems pretty valid and logical to me....

#63 ChristineM

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 10:44 PM

Here is another excellent article (I'll just post the link this time to save space)

http://www.nealhendr...hehumandiet.htm

#64 BenKweller

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 11:58 PM

Because the article loves to draw connections to the things it can visible observe while leaving out other creatures. For example, the same attributes given to "herbivores" apply to meat eating sea-coast animals (though the article forgets them). Also, Darwin himself warned in The Origin of Species that you cannot easily come up with "natures intention" by looking at one specific creature and comparing it to the next. For all we know, the way humans divulged from our ancestors was by the requirement to eat food (which would easily throw off anything that website says). Furthermore, it doesn't mention that the protein that humans (more than other primates) need to survive can be absorbed optimally ONLY through meat (any argument to that is wrong). Let's see... it comes from someone who first starts a vegan website... it's propaganda; science-intentioned propaganda but propaganda none-the-less. Question him to write a counterarguments paper to his own essay and he'll never do it.

#65 ChristineM

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 01:19 AM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 16 2004, 11:58 PM)
Because the article loves to draw connections to the things it can visible observe while leaving out other creatures. For example, the same attributes given to "herbivores" apply to meat eating sea-coast animals (though the article forgets them). Also, Darwin himself warned in The Origin of Species that you cannot easily come up with "natures intention" by looking at one specific creature and comparing it to the next. For all we know, the way humans divulged from our ancestors was by the requirement to eat food (which would easily throw off anything that website says). Furthermore, it doesn't mention that the protein that humans (more than other primates) need to survive can be absorbed optimally ONLY through meat (any argument to that is wrong). Let's see... it comes from someone who first starts a vegan website... it's propaganda; science-intentioned propaganda but propaganda none-the-less. Question him to write a counterarguments paper to his own essay and he'll never do it.

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Well I think you do have to pay attention the overwhelming similarities between our anatomy and that of herbivores vs. our lack of similarities with carnivores. It can't ALL be dismissed with the wave of a hand and some evolution excuses. I don't know of any meat eating sea creatures that have flat teeth and side-to-side jaw motion ability - could you expand on that more? Also, please direct me to the studies you mentioned about "the protein that humans (more than other primates) need to survive can be absorbed optimally ONLY through meat" What exactly is this special protein? A certain amino acid?? As far as I know, all the essential amino acids humans need can be found in plant based sources (minus the saturated fat and cholesterol that comes from animal based protein). Did you read the second article I posted? Any thoughts on that? I know it sounds like I'm being rude, but I really don't mean to be, I'm truly curious to see this information you are talking about.

All I know is that the difference in my overall health and energy level changed dramatically for the better when I switched from a meat based diet to a vegetarian diet. I lost 30 pounds of fat and am now seeing fantastic results with my new workout routine - I am having no problem putting on muscle (which would be kind of hard to do if I wasn't geting the right amount/kind of protein) I feel and look better than I ever have in my entire life, so the proof, as the old saying goes, is really in the pudding for me. smile.gif I can post a thousand articles as to why a veg diet is healthy and ideal for humans, but my own results and experience are the ultimate "proof" for me. smile.gif

I look forward to your answers to my questions though!

Take care,
Christine smile.gif

#66 BenKweller

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 04:26 PM

Vegetarian diets are great for those who are chronically obese -- if you needed to lose 30 lbs, I hope I don't offend you by saying maybe you had that problem. The problem is the long term result of not having meat. I've met many-a-people who don't eat any meat or animal products who several years later go back because their bodies eventually do get over the rush of change and feel worse (I'm taking bets that my friend Fred from Taking Back Sunday will be the next to do this).

The protein is not a special protein -- it's just a scientific fact that protein is best absorbed by eating meat; no plant can come close.

#67 mr_pink

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 05:46 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 18 2004, 12:26 AM)
The protein is not a special protein -- it's just a scientific fact that protein is best absorbed by eating meat; no plant can come close.

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Studies have shown that heat preparing a protein will make about 50% of it unusable to the body. So unless you eat your meat raw (which I HIGHLY doubt), eating vegatables or fruits like avocados is actually more effecient. It's not a whole lot of fruits/vegetables you have to eat to cover your recommend daily intake of protein.

#68 BenKweller

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:06 PM

Show me which study that is. Thanks.

#69 ChristineM

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:13 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 17 2004, 04:26 PM)
Vegetarian diets are great for those who are chronically obese -- if you needed to lose 30 lbs, I hope I don't offend you by saying maybe you had that problem. The problem is the long term result of not having meat. I've met many-a-people who don't eat any meat or animal products who several years later go back because their bodies eventually do get over the rush of change and feel worse (I'm taking bets that my friend Fred from Taking Back Sunday will be the next to do this).

The protein is not a special protein -- it's just a scientific fact that protein is best absorbed by eating meat; no plant can come close.

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Lol, well no I wasn't chronically obese smile.gif I had some extra weight to lose after my pregnancy and it wasn't coming off until I switched to a veg diet. I'm now 5'6, 118 pounds and a fitness model - but thanks for your concern wink.gif My aunt has her PhD in nutrition and has been a vegan for close to 20 years - she is by FAR the healthiest, fittest, most energetic person I have ever known. She was my main motivation to try a vegetarian diet. It's been 2 years now and there is no reason for me to think I will stop feeling as great as I have these past few years. For the record, both my children are vegetarian and are both in the 95th percentile for height and weight - they are strong, healthy, athletic kids that rarely get sick. My daughter is not even 5 yet and is showing tremendous athletic talent in soccer and gymnastics. I just have yet to see this "lack of protein/nutrients/whatever" that we are supposedly missing out on. There is no essential amino acid (building blocks of protein) that can't be found in plant based sources - heck soy by itself is a complete protein. Not to mention spirullina, quinoa, ect. - you just have to know where to look and what to eat. smile.gif The average american gets WAY too much protein which can lead to all sorts of problems from kidney failure to calcium loss (osteoporosis). Honestly, it's almost impossible to eat enough calories to sustain your weight and not get enough protein.

Anyhow, I'm not here to try and preach about a veg diet or anything, I just wanted to share my experience with it. smile.gif

This is a neat site w/ basic info about nutrition, for anyone interested: http://www.vegsoc.or...lth/vital4.html

Take care!!
Christine

#70 ChristineM

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:36 PM

Also, here is a really good, informative article about plant vs. animal protein and the common myths about it.
http://www.passionat...om/protein_.htm



#71 mr_pink

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 18 2004, 06:06 AM)
Show me which study that is. Thanks.

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The link that ChristineM supplied should give us some insight into this matter:
http://www.passionat...om/protein_.htm

Just google for "heat damages protein" if you want studies.

#72 BenKweller

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 10:46 PM

Oh Christine, I love people like you who are able to live for themselves and not feel the need to enlighten the masses who prefer meat. You get a BK seal of approval (despite the hating meat part) smile.gif.

I'm just curious about this but does anyone know of any anti-vegetarian websites or resources? Every crawler I've searched for some information about the dark side of vegetarianism just directs me to provegan sites.

#73 ChristineM

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Dec 17 2004, 10:46 PM)
Oh Christine, I love people like you who are able to live for themselves and not feel the need to enlighten the masses who prefer meat. You get a BK seal of approval (in spite of the hating meat part) smile.gif.

I'm just curious about this but does anyone know of any anti-vegetarian websites or resources? Every crawler I've searched for some information about the dark side of vegetarianism just directs me to provegan sites.

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Ok, I've read that first paragraph several times and I still can't decide if you are being sarcastic or not! eusa_eh.gif eusa_think.gif I really hope it's not, because I'm really not one to try and preach to others, I hope I didn't come across that way - I just wanted to share my experience and some relevant articles I had read about the topic that was being discussed. smile.gif I honestly don't "hate" meat - I have just found that I feel better when I don't consume it. biggrin.gif I DO hate factory farming and animal cruelty, but I have nothing against people who eat meat (heck, most of my family and friends do!) I'm not trying to turn the world veg, but I do wish people were more informed about the meat production process and supported cruelty free meats (Free range, organic, wild game, ect.) I would myself, but I have just found that I feel better when it's not a part of my diet at all. smile.gif

Take care,
Christine smile.gif



#74 ChristineM

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 11:51 PM

Holy cow that was a lot of smilies in my last post! 2 of them were intentional, but I'm not used to this forum where any time you do the : ) or : D thing it acually posts a little face. LOL

#75 marijamarija

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 11:54 AM

please can you inform me where did you get the shower head that you used would love to try it cause my water is heavy and not good for the skin so please email or somehoe inform me
thanks marija

#76 hazelnut66

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Nov 23 2004, 05:10 PM)
Veganism is silly.

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that is so rude, did it ever occur to you that it's based on beliefs?

#77 hazelnut66

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 02:05 PM

QUOTE(BenKweller @ Nov 24 2004, 04:56 PM)
Humans are supposed to eat meat. The fact that some believe we have some greater good to deprive ourselves of our normal food is like a lion deciding not kill a hyena because he can get by on nuts and fruits.

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how about...the conditions that animals endure to increase production are inhumane...now shut the fuck up

#78 rob101

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:58 PM

bread, crackers, cereal, what else is considered grain???

#79 antimatter

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 02:28 AM

The proportions of protein in plant sources is simply too small to fill the daily requirement. Corn and rice, for example have just 2 to 5 grams of protein per serving. You'd have to eat at least 10 servings, in addition to a couple servings of beans for the complete protein, ate within the same day, to meet the RDA requirement of 50 grams. However, those belong to the grain category, which we know is not good for acne. Eating 10 servings is simply unacceptable.
In contrast, each serving of skinless white turkey or chicken breast contains 25 g of complete protein, while containing very small amount of saturated fat. Just 2 servings would fulfill the daily requirement. Ironically, 2 servings of meat is also the recommended RDA for the meat group. Low in saturated fat, doesn't affect acne, provide the complete protein without having to combine with another food group, I know what I'd choose, as far as fulfilling my recommended daily protein intake.