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#1 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 06:18 PM

A lot of Benkwellers posts have got me thinking.
He always talks about the placebo effect when it comes to things like colonics or liver flushing. Now I completely agree that there is something to placebo effects.
What I am wondering is, if the placebo effect was all it took to get rid of acne,
I am just wondering why so many of us have had NO luck with creams and other
topical treatments?
I would think these things, in our minds, would have much more of a placebo effect on acne than anything like a flush, since they are designed specifically FOR acne..yet so many of us have had no luck with them.

Side note: I have done quite a few colon cleanses in my life, and every time I am on one my skin gets really clear..but as soon as I actually FEED myself I break out again..how annoying.

Current Skin-Care Regimen (A work in progress):

 

Morning:

Gentle wash with DKR cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil (The  lotion alone wasn't hydrating enough)

Skin 79 Korean BB Cream (excellent stuff)

 

Evening:

Gentle Wash with DKR Cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil

 


#2 BenKweller

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 06:31 PM

Placebos are often subconscious. The creams people use can often irritate initially and dash hopes in an inner-thinking kinda way. Liverflushing can't do this so it can have a higher effect on the brain. That and that it is billed as the "undiscovered cure."

#3 Denise2

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 07:26 PM

I just KKKKNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWW that b-5 would work. Couldn't convince me otherwise. I also KNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW that the 6 microderms at $75.00 a pop would work too. I also just knew beyond any shadow of any doubt that saw palmetto herb would work. Add msm, milk thistle, artichoke extract, v-beam laser therapy, blood cleansing herbs, antibiotics, retin a, and a plethora of other acne fighting medications I have tried. But I REEEAAAAAAAAAALLLLY thought that the b-5 would work. I did an awful lot of research on it and thought it was the answer to all my prayers, but it wasn't. Never saw consistant results, and the high doses made me exhausted.

When that didn't work, I tried saw palmetto herb. Did nothing. I had already tried the 20 or so other things I listed above.

If the liverflush is a placebo, then so many people wouldn't have documented results. And I'm talking about real blood test results; not just acne, but lowered cholesterol and other things as well.

#4 SteveBrown

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 07:47 PM

The placebo effect has been found to have theraputic value for medical conditions in which a person's state of mind may be a factor. As that pertains to acne, which is a bacterial infection, the placebo effect may lead to a positive mental attitude, which may reduce emotional stress, which is known to compromise immunity. However, I would expect the placebo effect on acne to be slight at best. The p. acnes bacteria will tend to thrive if conditions in the body are favorable, regardless of the victim's state of mind.


#5 BenKweller

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 08:25 PM

The idea, though, is that the body can lower its own overproduction of sebum with a positive state of mind.

"If the liverflush is a placebo, then so many people wouldn't have documented results."

That's one problem, Deni. There AREN'T "so many people" with "documented results." Documents implies something scientific or credible -- a website with "testimonials" isn't documentation. Nor is the fake lab report that someone reported as incredible a while back.

And placebo's work in strange ways that cannot be concluded as false by saying, "Oh but I REALLY REALLY believed in ____ and it didn't work." It's one part of the mind we're still trying to understand.

#6 agentcooper

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:57 AM

the mind is a powerful thing indeed. there have been cases of people curing their own cancer by taking sugar pills just by believing the pills were going to work.

it's too bad most of us can't tap into that part of our brain and cure our acne without going to drastic measures such as liver flushes.

#7 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 01:12 PM

Actually there are dozens of ways to get into that mindset. Some are extremely powerful though and may cause changes you don't want if you can't control them.
There are a few companies I can recommend you that are, well basically on the edge of mainstream science BUT are backed completely by research, experiementation, and is proven by hundreds of people.

Innertalk was featured on the discovery channel and is the ablsolute best in subliminal, it you can even call it that(free Mp3 on their site that ends stress).

Neural-Programmer uses binaural beats to change your brain wavelengths(reduces anxiety, stress, depression, procrastination, insomnia, increases creativity, analytical thinking, IQ increase(At Arizona state and at a few other universities they have documented an average increase of 17% in IQ points)). This works amazing when in congunction with innertalk or any subliminal program. You can get a free 30 day shareware version of a similar program by getting the brainwave generator, although they don't tell you the settings to increase your IQ(It has the opposite effect on gial count and synapse firing that things like smoking weed has).

Finally, the volition thoughthouse that you may have seen is the capstone in all this. Their book changed me completely. If you have the right mindset you can replace the above two with techniques using this book but it does work best when they are combined. Apart form my amazing leap in creativity, my documented increase in reading speed(yes I had my before and after ability tested) went from just over 350WPM to 26000WPM WITH a retention rate improvement of 15% to a total of 89%.

Now the above isn't even the part of the book that amazed me(as I know there are other programs that teach people to photo read at a few hundred thousand WPM, which is also backed by science). The thing that really improved all areas of my mind was the thinking method used to expand your IQ, increase all levels of reasoning, etc... It's basically a form of image streaming, only this method combines the proven techniques of two of the greatest thinkers in history, Einstein and Socrates.

Basically you can thank the vast majority of new inventions and ideas to this method, although some may not realize that they're doing it. For thousands of years people have been learning this way and small populations such as Greece have produced more geniuses(yes, it's not just a born trait) per capita than any other civilization in the world. The same thing happened when the renissance hit and innovation exploded.

Einstein used a method of creative thinking that was used my many before him BUT only really came to the public's eye when he confessed usage of it. His visual thought sessions that he went into gave him the idea of relativity, and most of his other theories. The thing about this method is that through the law of diminishing returns your IQ will only increase a certain amount, some thinking up to 35 points or so BUT all your cognitive abilities will grow in infinite amounts. Have any of you read Moby Dick? Remember the patchquilt chapter, where he took the whole thing to describe that one object and he never repeated himself? He was using a variation of this method that increases creativite thinking. Tesla thought of the elec. system using these visual thechniques, we got organic chemistry though this way as well.

Do a google search on the Einsteinian and Socratic method, where you can find totally free step by step instructions to accomplish this.

I suppose you don't have to go overboard with this stuff like I did, and I suppose you can relate me to those who liver flush in my pursuit for alternative methods of learning but this works so well. I would say that the biggest thing university has taught me was how to learn but now that I've found these methods, I felt like it was all a waste of my money(the schooling). I started this because I knew that I was smart and could accomplish so much, but wasn't getting the returns I wanted from school. After only a few months on this I'm laughing at things that scared me before like calculus and advanced law. I have a photographic memory now, I can read textbook chapters in 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes and I retain more information, my creative ability has skyrocketed and I now can solve even complex problems with ease and with none of the anxiety I had before. I am starting to write Jazz on the piano, I'm in the process of learning 2 languages, and I'm researching a business that I'd like to start. I'm in my last year of school and everything comes so easy to me now(I'm doing all the above in my spare time).

For the record, no I don'thave any affiliation with these companies(which is why I gave you hints of where to find the free ones online), and yes, I am trumpeting them. I swear if the modern school system just used these methods(especially the Socratic and Einsteinian methods) our society would have already found the cure to every disease, we wouldn't be dependant on fossil fuels, there would be fewer, if any, wars, etc...

#8 agentcooper

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:17 PM

wow, that is really fascinating! it sounds like you have really benefitted from learning these things.

i, however, was more speaking about curing acne with the mind. i think it could be done (for some people anyway)...we just can't tap into that part of our brain. unless these programs could be used to cure disease?...

#9 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:08 PM

No it can't cure serious diseases(that I know of), but yes people do use it for acne, colds, the flu, etc.... Basically if you have a wider control over the brain you have more control over functions like the immune system, can indirectly control various glands like the adrenal. Like Ben said above things like sebum can be controlled by taking over certain reactions like stress. It's really quite amazing what control you have over your brain, and consequently, the rest of your body. They say that out of 100 things you experience, your conscious only recieves 1, the rest is sent to the subconscious. Imagine what you could do if you could tap into that, how you could improve your mind and body. How much better you could react to problems, internally and externally.


#10 BenKweller

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:32 PM

Exactly. The whole placebo effect, in my opinion, is especially good with liverflushes because people get the locus of control on their side. With anything else, they know it's probably temporary -- liverflushing seems permanent.

And yes, people CAN cure serious disease through meditation.

#11 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:15 PM

Somethign else that's interesting. The body is usually out of balance with regards to sodium and potassium(this is especially true with the brain). If you listen to binaural beats at a certain frequency(I believe it's in the Theta range) these levels will become balanced in just a few minutes. Don't know if it helps acne(indirectly) but I know some of you were trying to find links from sodium and potassium.

#12 dejaclairevoyant

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:05 PM

QUOTE(blackbirdbeatle @ Nov 9 2004, 06:15 PM)
Somethign else that's interesting. The body is usually out of balance with regards to sodium and potassium(this is especially true with the brain). If you listen to binaural beats at a certain frequency(I believe it's in the Theta range) these levels will become balanced in just a few minutes. Don't know if it helps acne(indirectly) but I know some of you were trying to find links from sodium and potassium.

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Hmm...where would one find these beats to listen to?
Relaxation tapes or something like that?
Thats interesting.

Current Skin-Care Regimen (A work in progress):

 

Morning:

Gentle wash with DKR cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil (The  lotion alone wasn't hydrating enough)

Skin 79 Korean BB Cream (excellent stuff)

 

Evening:

Gentle Wash with DKR Cleanser

Benzoyl Peroxide 2.5% (Following Dan's Regimen)

DKR Lotion + A squirt of Argan or Grapeseed oil

 


#13 BenKweller

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:56 PM

Sodium and potassium AREN'T usually out of balance. Biofeedback is a great way to relieve stress but we can't hear sounds in the theta range much less listen to them and have something change.

#14 blackbirdbeatle

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:55 PM

It doesn't matter if you can't audibly hear them, your brain can register them. That's not how binaural beats work. The beats aren't really beats, they are one note played on two different channels(left and right speakers) where one is in perfect key and one is slightly off. Acoustically they are two seperate notes, but your ears are tricked by the almost two identical tones and therefore hear a beat if you will.

It doesn't have to be a really low frequency either for your brain to register the beats. For instance if you take 2 tones, one at 20Hz and the other at 22Hz, your brain will pick up the difference of the two Hz and thus gives the effect of a delta wave. The 2Hz is not really there but you brain creates this little illusion and thus, you have entrainment.

If you combines this with visual, it will literally transform your state in seconds. Eg. adding binaural beats of 10Hz with a flashing led 10x per second. I know people who use this as a sort of mild LSD, becuase it produces the same effect if used properly and swept in the right frequencies.

The relation to acne is that using subliminal programming or positive reinforcement form youself while using these beats, you can change your brainwaves to a more accepting state. YOu can learn faster, meditate deeper than ever before or just relax with no effort(it once knocked me out I was so relaxed but that was with a person that knew exactly how to control the beats and how to sweep them), you can easily and quickly reinforce ideas into your brain. This reinforcing idea could be that you do have clear skin, or that you are getting clearer each day, or that you exercise each day,etc... whatever you want to believe will clear your acne.

Your brain can and does react to frequencies well outside of the range your ears pick up. People in recording studios know this and many use sounds we can't hear to ellicit reations to the music. For instance most adults can't hear over 20kHz, but our brain can register these noises because they still are emitting frequencies and thus many CD are filled with waves we can't hear to either relax us, get us revved up, etc...

#15 Polka

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:56 PM

my thoughts are who cares if it is placebo or not, as long as it works!!!

#16 BenKweller

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 07:49 PM

One should care because if it's a placebo that can clear some people, then people can devise other placebos that don't involve ingesting so disgusting shit.

#17 vince

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:13 AM

All i can say is mind over matter anyday. Read up anything on Deepak Chopra, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Robin Sharma....etc....and you will find a lot of interesting things you never knew about. Read the book called quantum healing by Deepak Chopra, it is very interesting. People have gone through spontaneous remission of their cancers and this has been well documented. Mind/Body medicine is really making a significant impact and I find it not only motivation for other aspects of my life, but it almost cured my acne none the less. In the summer time, all I did was read up on meditation,yogic practices, mind programming such as Volition Thoughthouse, NLP, etc and I was extremely clear. Hell my diet was horrible as well! I ate a lot of pasta, pizza etc. But basically I could control my emotions, stress levels to keep my chronic persistent acne almost completely out. But then I went through a serious relationship issue and my state of mind just totally collapsed the last 2 months. My acne returned even though my diet is almost perfect! I mean diet does have affects to some extent, but NOTHING is more powerful than the mind. You the observer can control whatever you want because its mind of matter. Just keep feeding your subconscious in the theta level (4-7 Hz). You have to be in a theta level to reprogram DEEPLY especially genetic disorders such as acne. Your susceptibility to acne is greater than one who does not have acne and requires special care. You want to be able to regulate your immune system functions and emotions. There are a lot of factors involved but your subconscious will believe anything you give it as long as you feed it with correct input. However, be careful because your subconscious also rejects negative statements such as...."I do not want acne", and instead will read it as "I want acne". It is very vulnerable in this fashion, so focus on what you want. Say "every day in every way my skin is getting clearer and clearer and clearer". Repitition is key. If one can master meditation then they can reach these altered states of consciousness at will such as the Yogins in a matter of few minutes. Then you can positively affirm and ultimately reprogram your mind to conquer genetic disorders. It takes perseverance and time so DO NOT expect results right away and start setting dates. This will not help you in any way. You want to be able to heal a bit more everyday. Eventually you will conquer it. The mind is very powerful. If anyone has doubts about this, you can goto any bookstore and goto the self-help section and read countless books on this topic. Read, read and read on this stuff because that will give you the knowledge required to gain mastery. But you also have to practice meditation and breathing exercises. Once you start on it, you won't look back. Good luck.