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If Acne Was Caused By Diet Why Would It Only Start At Puberty?

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If you don't like a post that much then do not respond to it. Not having a go, just a suggestion.

You are right, I should not respond to trolls. Which is why I added that first part. Because I knew I shouldn't be responding to the troll.

>The other thing that really gets me about this entire part of forum,

People giving out advice about hormones when they have no clue what they are talking about.

Endocrinologists will be the first to say they are just scratching the service when it comes to hormones. So if the leaders of research are saying this then who is anyone else to comment about insulin sensitivity, leptin, ghrelin or whatever other hormone you want to talk about?

I'm a nutritionist. This would be like me giving nutrition advice to a cancer victim. Only an oncologist would be in a position to comment.

People need to get real and stop talking about a subject they clearly know nothing about.

There are like 10 thousand processes going on in the body at anyone time, we can control like 12 of them.


Formerly Nicky D

If you stand for nothing then you will fall for anything


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Wishonastar- Be forever wary of the advice of niche specialists. When your only tool is a hammer, all you see are nails, and just because you get paid to dole out advice and push products and services doesn't mean you actually have the answers for everyone. Even among professionals in each specialty there is an abundance of conjecture and d*ck-waving,

Becoming aware of body processes and fact checking your sources is the best way to get advice. Message boards are just a jump-off point, that will always be polluted with opinions, even if there are good information and valid personal experiences there.

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  • Clear Skin and Anxiety Maintenance Routine:
  • Supplements: Shi wei Bei Du Tang (powder by Sun Ten) and the Zhen Zhu An Chuang Pan (tablets by Guang Ci Tang) both for acne+ other Chinese mood stabilizers.
  • 20,000IU+ of Vitamin D/day (+ antioxidants and multi with minerals)
  • Diet: Ultra Meal and Orac Energy Greens shakes- no meat, coffee, dairy, gluten or alcohol
  • Topical: crysanthemum and MSM baths and cleansing with Proactiv Deep and Kavi Coral on Konjac sponge to exfoliate, and Jason Aloe and Tea Tree and Hyaluronic Acid to heal and hydrate.
  • Lifestyle: 8 hrs sleep, light exercise only, >1hr sun exposure daily, no fluoride toothpastes, no sulfate shampoos, clean shower/pillowcase.

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All acne is hormonally initiated. I love this quote from Geoffrey Redmond (endocrinologist) in his published American Medical Association article on acne.

"WIthout androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, acne does not occur."

I think most of us know this, but androgens include testosterone and DHT hormones, and the pilosebaceous unit is "The structure consisting of hair, hair follicle, arrector pili muscles, and sebaceous gland."

The chain can be described like this.

Androgenic action -> sebaceous gland -> sebum production -> dead skin cells mixing -> blockages -> bacteria feeding on blockage -> inflammation -> acne.

So right now, all acne treatments step in to stop acne somewhere in that chain. Benzoyl peroxide helps with "blockages" and "bacteria." Salicylic acid helps with "blockages" and slightly with "inflammation." Accutane shrinks the sebaceous gland. Some other medications directly change the hormone levels.

Now something important to remember is that the insulin / glucose cycle is strongly related to your hormones. Many people experience success getting rid of dairy or going low-carb because that directly modifies the insulin / glucose cycle which then in turn affects your hormonal output. Diet can and does work because it is capable in some people of fixing that bad hormonal pattern.

We could probably be accurate in changing the chain to look something like this:

Insulin / glucose and Androgenic action -> sebaceous gland -> sebum production -> dead skin cells mixing -> blockages -> bacteria feeding on blockage -> inflammation -> acne.

(If you go look up studies on diabetes (people with severe insulin / glucose problems), you will find a wealth of articles explaining the correlations between these problems and changes in hormones.)

If you are getting "acne" as an "allergic" reaction may I suggest that we call that something else. Typical acne as defined by inflammation from a pore blockage initiated by sebaceous gland output started by androgenic action is not the same as an allergic reaction to food, however it may look on the surface of the skin. However there are many skin conditions that similar to acne, (think folliculitis, or KP on the face), and perhaps there are also some allergic reactions that look like acne. But as this is the ACNE board, well...


photo-152109.gif?_r=1345837784?__rand=0.

GreenGables

 


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Acne is initiated by inflammation. And while excessive sebum doesn't help, it's not the cause or a necessary step in acne formation. Plenty of people have oily but clear skin. And plenty of people have dry skin and acne. And again, acne does not only begin at puberty as the title claims. Not any more. Plenty of people don't get it until later in life. Because of our now terrible diet and lifestyles that elevate hormones and promote chronic silent inflammation.

Recent Advances in Acne Pathogenesis Information

The 2009 acne update from the Global Alliance to Improve Outcomes in Acne throws some interesting insights about the pathogenesis of acne:

1- The inflammatory events in acne precede the hyperkeratinization (thickening of the follicular walls).

2- P. acnes specifically activate special receptors on the cell membranes of inflammatory cells.

3- The sebaceous gland is a neuroendocrine-inflammatory organ that coordinates and executes a local response to a variety of neuro-endocrinological and stress induced stimuli.

4- Sebaceous gland plays an important role in hormonally induced aging of skin.

5- In addition to their action on sebaceous gland activity, androgens have influence on the follicular cells (corneocytes) also.

5- Oxidized lipids in sebum (possibly altered by P.acnes) induce the production of inflammatory mediators.

6- Sebum contains several matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) which play important roles in the inflammatory process of acne. The levels of MMPs are significantly reduced in the acne lesions following treatment.

Reference

Simpson NB & Cunliffe WJ. Disorders of the Sebaceous Glands in Rookâs Textbook of Dermatology. 2004; 7: 43.1-43.75.

Diane T, Gollnick H et al. New insights into the management of acne: An update from the Global Alliance to Improve Outcomes in Acne Group. J Am Acad Dermatol, 2009;60:S1-50.


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Sex hormones become active at puberty causing an increase in sebum production and changing the way your body and skin function completely. You could eat crappy foods when you are 8, but will not notice their effects on your skin until you hit puberty. Because women have naturally fluctuating hormones, they are more likely than men to have acne that persists into adulthood. This is because men's hormones even out (usually), whereas women's are constantly changing throughout their menstrual cycle (ovulation zits, anyone?). My husband used to have acne as a teen, but does not have any trouble in adulthood (no matter what he eats... it's not fair), whereas I must be extremely careful with my diet or I will look like I have been in an accident. Acne is generally NOT a food allergy. In fact, I've noticed that I have no true food allergies at all and am actually (like most acne sufferers) very sensitive to blood sugar spikes. While some people's acne may well be the result of a true allergy, most people just need to give up milk, sugar, and excess carbs to experience relief. It appears that I am doing a grain-free thing because of allergies, but really it's just because grains=carbs, and carbs=acne. I don't have any gastrointestinal issues if I eat a piece of baguette with cheese once in a while, so no allergies to report here! Milk is particularly an issue with women, since it naturally contains hormones and IGF which spike insulin and trigger acne. I always tell people that if they only give up one thing, make it cow dairy. I can even have a piece of actual real-life (I know OMG) candy from time to time at the movies or whatever and it will not do the same thing to me that a big glass of milk will do. Milk is absolutely poison for my skin, and I don't even like it that much to want to worry with my skin over it.

There is too much anecdotal evidence for the diet/acne link, not to mention all of the recent studies done linking dairy and sugar with acne (and premature aging) for me to entertain the possibility that all of us are trapped in some group hallucination causing us to believe in quack science. Sorry. The diet/acne thing is real. The genetics/acne thing is also real. Not everyone is predisposed to having acne... this is true. But you can't just say "oh well... I've just got bad genes!" and give up. You absolutely have more control over your destiny than that, and it's the lazy way out.

1 person likes this

Suffered from acne as a young adult that went into remission when put on hormonal birth control. Went off the HBC around age 22 and the acne returned with a vengeance (along with a host of other hormonal complaints). 100% clear with a modified diet that excludes dairy, sugars, grains, citrus and cured meats and emphasizes whole food-based nutrition from both plant and animal sources, most notably organ meats like liver and juiced whole vegetables. I have included a recipe for the most helpful juice I have come up with for skin complaints. I drink it every day, and it is invaluable for acne due to the large amounts of vitamin A (carotenoids) from both the carrots and beets. It also helps improve your coloring if you are very fair, giving you a pinkish, more radiant look (not orange. Don't worry!).

Magic Juice

In a juicer, combine:

5-6 carrots

1 medium beet

2-3 stalks of celery

1 small apple (Green is preferred. Omit if you are very sugar-sensitive)

1 small (1inch) piece of ginger (optional, but good for digestion)

This makes a variable amount of juice depending on the size of the vegetables you use.

Drink this throughout the morning until it's gone. Store in the fridge not longer than one day.

Having perfectly clear skin on my wedding day was worth all the headache and effort of figuring out how diet affects acne!

10253792_10152330899888950_7455033623381


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Alternatvista, your article says nothing about what starts the inflammation cycle. Without androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, the necessary events for the inflammation specifically in the pore that create the acne pustule cannot take place. You do not have to have "oily" skin to have just enough androgenic action to start the cycle which does result in inflammation near the end of the chain. Many people with seemingly dry skin on the surface still get blockages underneath the skin in cyst-like form. Have you ever had a stage four acne cyst excavated by a doctor? I have. Guess what, there is always a sebum pore blockage deep in the skin. Yet I have "dry" skin on the surface.

There are cysts that do not have a pore blockage. But definitions are important. What differentiates acne from similar skin conditions is the pore blockage. If there is no pore blockage, then it's not acne you're not looking at.

If you could possibly have ZERO androgenic action and ZERO sebum production, then you would not get acne. However even people with dry skin do not have zero androgens and nor do they have zero sebum. EVERY adult out there has some sebum. You don't need a lot to create the pore blockage that leads to an acne pustule.

This is why acne does start during and/or after puberty, because once puberty activates the hormones those hormones never completely go away, and typically you will always have more hormones after puberty than before. So you're way more likely as a 40 year old to have acne than a 4 year old purely based on your hormonal levels.

Tons of hormonal changes also occur later in life even if you live a great healthy stress-free life. Menopause is just one great example. In some women, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered in favor of testosterone. This can even happen in perimenopause. No wonder some middle aged women start getting acne out of the blue.

Also a huge point is that you are affecting your hormones every day by your lifestyle and what you eat. You may think it's all about inflammation, and it partially is. But you are modifying your hormones (including insulin/glucose) with every "anti-inflammatory" step you take. To say that it's initiated by inflammation is somewhat disingenuous as you can be as inflamed as you want, but if you had zero androgenic action and zero sebum you simply could not form the pore blockage that leads to acne. We can shut down the acne cycle much quicker by changing the hormones (major: insulin, minor: testosterone) than trying to address all the modalities of skin inflammation that are preceded by hormonal events. As most traditional acne treatments are either anti-bacterial or anti-inflammatory, certainly inflammation is a key step. But if your anti-inflammatory treatments are in no way affecting the internal hormonal events (e.g. something like benzoyl peroxide), your chances of eliminating acne are slim at best. Of course if you can do BOTH, more power to everyone.

You highlighted stress. Even the most stressed out four year old does not have acne. I have worked with many troubled kids with terrible lives, mental disorders, high amounts of stress, abuse. They don't have pustular acne in the prepubescent stage. The whole cascade of hormones simply aren't in place for the particular type of acne to develop. Studies of girls that were considered premenarchial still showed hormone changes that indicated internal puberty changes before the other visible changes came about. There was one study that said that acne can precede other signs of puberty such as pubic hair and breast development--they determined puberty had happened by measuring hormone levels.

That said, I also feel that we are agreeing in some ways but describing the problem differently. Even stress is largely a hormonally involved event. Maybe if we really really stressed out a four year old and gave them full blown type 2 diabetes (insulin problems) and stimulated androgens through weight lifting and dairy consumption, we could cause acne without the markers for puberty necessarily being in place. But to say that's happening because of inflammation only without the help of hormones is a bit silly.

I'm also curious if you even personally have acne as traditionally defined, as you seem to report "reactions" from time to time that do not sound like acne at all. For example, how was your MSM-induced acne different from your typical acne? Do you truly think the MSM-induced "acne" was even acne?


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GreenGables

 


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MSM is sulphur and sulphur is a fungal proliferant, so maybe that's why she broke out with acne when consuming MSM.


''I'm not clever, but I figure if I ask all the questions, somebody else might have all the answers'' - Quote, Me!


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Alternatvista, your article says nothing about what starts the inflammation cycle. Without androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, the necessary events for the inflammation specifically in the pore that create the acne pustule cannot take place. You do not have to have "oily" skin to have just enough androgenic action to start the cycle which does result in inflammation near the end of the chain. Many people with seemingly dry skin on the surface still get blockages underneath the skin in cyst-like form. Have you ever had a stage four acne cyst excavated by a doctor? I have. Guess what, there is always a sebum pore blockage deep in the skin. Yet I have "dry" skin on the surface.

There are cysts that do not have a pore blockage. But definitions are important. What differentiates acne from similar skin conditions is the pore blockage. If there is no pore blockage, then it's not acne you're not looking at.

If you could possibly have ZERO androgenic action and ZERO sebum production, then you would not get acne. However even people with dry skin do not have zero androgens and nor do they have zero sebum. EVERY adult out there has some sebum. You don't need a lot to create the pore blockage that leads to an acne pustule.

This is why acne does start during and/or after puberty, because once puberty activates the hormones those hormones never completely go away, and typically you will always have more hormones after puberty than before. So you're way more likely as a 40 year old to have acne than a 4 year old purely based on your hormonal levels.

Tons of hormonal changes also occur later in life even if you live a great healthy stress-free life. Menopause is just one great example. In some women, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered in favor of testosterone. This can even happen in perimenopause. No wonder some middle aged women start getting acne out of the blue.

Also a huge point is that you are affecting your hormones every day by your lifestyle and what you eat. You may think it's all about inflammation, and it partially is. But you are modifying your hormones (including insulin/glucose) with every "anti-inflammatory" step you take. To say that it's initiated by inflammation is somewhat disingenuous as you can be as inflamed as you want, but if you had zero androgenic action and zero sebum you simply could not form the pore blockage that leads to acne. We can shut down the acne cycle much quicker by changing the hormones (major: insulin, minor: testosterone) than trying to address all the modalities of skin inflammation that are preceded by hormonal events. As most traditional acne treatments are either anti-bacterial or anti-inflammatory, certainly inflammation is a key step. But if your anti-inflammatory treatments are in no way affecting the internal hormonal events (e.g. something like benzoyl peroxide), your chances of eliminating acne are slim at best. Of course if you can do BOTH, more power to everyone.

You highlighted stress. Even the most stressed out four year old does not have acne. I have worked with many troubled kids with terrible lives, mental disorders, high amounts of stress, abuse. They don't have pustular acne in the prepubescent stage. The whole cascade of hormones simply aren't in place for the particular type of acne to develop. Studies of girls that were considered premenarchial still showed hormone changes that indicated internal puberty changes before the other visible changes came about. There was one study that said that acne can precede other signs of puberty such as pubic hair and breast development--they determined puberty had happened by measuring hormone levels.

That said, I also feel that we are agreeing in some ways but describing the problem differently. Even stress is largely a hormonally involved event. Maybe if we really really stressed out a four year old and gave them full blown type 2 diabetes (insulin problems) and stimulated androgens through weight lifting and dairy consumption, we could cause acne without the markers for puberty necessarily being in place. But to say that's happening because of inflammation only without the help of hormones is a bit silly.

I'm also curious if you even personally have acne as traditionally defined, as you seem to report "reactions" from time to time that do not sound like acne at all. For example, how was your MSM-induced acne different from your typical acne? Do you truly think the MSM-induced "acne" was even acne?

1 person likes this

Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Some people want to give up on the diet thing, and that's fine with me. As for me, I'm going to go to the pool with no makeup on. Obviously people who have figured out the diet/acne link are the winners in this situation. I don't really care if people call me nuts, say my diet is ludicrous or rubbish, or othersuch nonsense. My skin looks great. If it's all an elaborate coincidence and has nothing to do with my radical and sudden diet change, then... just kidding. Of course it was my diet change. UUUUUGH. I'm done.

Alternatvista, your article says nothing about what starts the inflammation cycle. Without androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, the necessary events for the inflammation specifically in the pore that create the acne pustule cannot take place. You do not have to have "oily" skin to have just enough androgenic action to start the cycle which does result in inflammation near the end of the chain. Many people with seemingly dry skin on the surface still get blockages underneath the skin in cyst-like form. Have you ever had a stage four acne cyst excavated by a doctor? I have. Guess what, there is always a sebum pore blockage deep in the skin. Yet I have "dry" skin on the surface.

There are cysts that do not have a pore blockage. But definitions are important. What differentiates acne from similar skin conditions is the pore blockage. If there is no pore blockage, then it's not acne you're not looking at.

If you could possibly have ZERO androgenic action and ZERO sebum production, then you would not get acne. However even people with dry skin do not have zero androgens and nor do they have zero sebum. EVERY adult out there has some sebum. You don't need a lot to create the pore blockage that leads to an acne pustule.

This is why acne does start during and/or after puberty, because once puberty activates the hormones those hormones never completely go away, and typically you will always have more hormones after puberty than before. So you're way more likely as a 40 year old to have acne than a 4 year old purely based on your hormonal levels.

Tons of hormonal changes also occur later in life even if you live a great healthy stress-free life. Menopause is just one great example. In some women, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered in favor of testosterone. This can even happen in perimenopause. No wonder some middle aged women start getting acne out of the blue.

Also a huge point is that you are affecting your hormones every day by your lifestyle and what you eat. You may think it's all about inflammation, and it partially is. But you are modifying your hormones (including insulin/glucose) with every "anti-inflammatory" step you take. To say that it's initiated by inflammation is somewhat disingenuous as you can be as inflamed as you want, but if you had zero androgenic action and zero sebum you simply could not form the pore blockage that leads to acne. We can shut down the acne cycle much quicker by changing the hormones (major: insulin, minor: testosterone) than trying to address all the modalities of skin inflammation that are preceded by hormonal events. As most traditional acne treatments are either anti-bacterial or anti-inflammatory, certainly inflammation is a key step. But if your anti-inflammatory treatments are in no way affecting the internal hormonal events (e.g. something like benzoyl peroxide), your chances of eliminating acne are slim at best. Of course if you can do BOTH, more power to everyone.

You highlighted stress. Even the most stressed out four year old does not have acne. I have worked with many troubled kids with terrible lives, mental disorders, high amounts of stress, abuse. They don't have pustular acne in the prepubescent stage. The whole cascade of hormones simply aren't in place for the particular type of acne to develop. Studies of girls that were considered premenarchial still showed hormone changes that indicated internal puberty changes before the other visible changes came about. There was one study that said that acne can precede other signs of puberty such as pubic hair and breast development--they determined puberty had happened by measuring hormone levels.

That said, I also feel that we are agreeing in some ways but describing the problem differently. Even stress is largely a hormonally involved event. Maybe if we really really stressed out a four year old and gave them full blown type 2 diabetes (insulin problems) and stimulated androgens through weight lifting and dairy consumption, we could cause acne without the markers for puberty necessarily being in place. But to say that's happening because of inflammation only without the help of hormones is a bit silly.

I'm also curious if you even personally have acne as traditionally defined, as you seem to report "reactions" from time to time that do not sound like acne at all. For example, how was your MSM-induced acne different from your typical acne? Do you truly think the MSM-induced "acne" was even acne?

I don't think it's all about inflammation and of course hormones are involved and you are affecting your hormones with diet. I don't know why you are telling me this. I've only said so a million times.

And I don't believe the MSM issue was true acne just like I don't believe my cystic acne caused by a delayed response to a food is true acne. Also wonder if the breakouts some women experience with their menstual cycle is true acne. By true acne I mean the process they tell us takes weeks to occur

1 person likes this

Suffered from acne as a young adult that went into remission when put on hormonal birth control. Went off the HBC around age 22 and the acne returned with a vengeance (along with a host of other hormonal complaints). 100% clear with a modified diet that excludes dairy, sugars, grains, citrus and cured meats and emphasizes whole food-based nutrition from both plant and animal sources, most notably organ meats like liver and juiced whole vegetables. I have included a recipe for the most helpful juice I have come up with for skin complaints. I drink it every day, and it is invaluable for acne due to the large amounts of vitamin A (carotenoids) from both the carrots and beets. It also helps improve your coloring if you are very fair, giving you a pinkish, more radiant look (not orange. Don't worry!).

Magic Juice

In a juicer, combine:

5-6 carrots

1 medium beet

2-3 stalks of celery

1 small apple (Green is preferred. Omit if you are very sugar-sensitive)

1 small (1inch) piece of ginger (optional, but good for digestion)

This makes a variable amount of juice depending on the size of the vegetables you use.

Drink this throughout the morning until it's gone. Store in the fridge not longer than one day.

Having perfectly clear skin on my wedding day was worth all the headache and effort of figuring out how diet affects acne!

10253792_10152330899888950_7455033623381


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Some people want to give up on the diet thing, and that's fine with me. As for me, I'm going to go to the pool with no makeup on. Obviously people who have figured out the diet/acne link are the winners in this situation. I don't really care if people call me nuts, say my diet is ludicrous or rubbish, or othersuch nonsense. My skin looks great. If it's all an elaborate coincidence and has nothing to do with my radical and sudden diet change, then... just kidding. Of course it was my diet change. UUUUUGH. I'm done.

Alternatvista, your article says nothing about what starts the inflammation cycle. Without androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, the necessary events for the inflammation specifically in the pore that create the acne pustule cannot take place. You do not have to have "oily" skin to have just enough androgenic action to start the cycle which does result in inflammation near the end of the chain. Many people with seemingly dry skin on the surface still get blockages underneath the skin in cyst-like form. Have you ever had a stage four acne cyst excavated by a doctor? I have. Guess what, there is always a sebum pore blockage deep in the skin. Yet I have "dry" skin on the surface.

There are cysts that do not have a pore blockage. But definitions are important. What differentiates acne from similar skin conditions is the pore blockage. If there is no pore blockage, then it's not acne you're not looking at.

If you could possibly have ZERO androgenic action and ZERO sebum production, then you would not get acne. However even people with dry skin do not have zero androgens and nor do they have zero sebum. EVERY adult out there has some sebum. You don't need a lot to create the pore blockage that leads to an acne pustule.

This is why acne does start during and/or after puberty, because once puberty activates the hormones those hormones never completely go away, and typically you will always have more hormones after puberty than before. So you're way more likely as a 40 year old to have acne than a 4 year old purely based on your hormonal levels.

Tons of hormonal changes also occur later in life even if you live a great healthy stress-free life. Menopause is just one great example. In some women, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered in favor of testosterone. This can even happen in perimenopause. No wonder some middle aged women start getting acne out of the blue.

Also a huge point is that you are affecting your hormones every day by your lifestyle and what you eat. You may think it's all about inflammation, and it partially is. But you are modifying your hormones (including insulin/glucose) with every "anti-inflammatory" step you take. To say that it's initiated by inflammation is somewhat disingenuous as you can be as inflamed as you want, but if you had zero androgenic action and zero sebum you simply could not form the pore blockage that leads to acne. We can shut down the acne cycle much quicker by changing the hormones (major: insulin, minor: testosterone) than trying to address all the modalities of skin inflammation that are preceded by hormonal events. As most traditional acne treatments are either anti-bacterial or anti-inflammatory, certainly inflammation is a key step. But if your anti-inflammatory treatments are in no way affecting the internal hormonal events (e.g. something like benzoyl peroxide), your chances of eliminating acne are slim at best. Of course if you can do BOTH, more power to everyone.

You highlighted stress. Even the most stressed out four year old does not have acne. I have worked with many troubled kids with terrible lives, mental disorders, high amounts of stress, abuse. They don't have pustular acne in the prepubescent stage. The whole cascade of hormones simply aren't in place for the particular type of acne to develop. Studies of girls that were considered premenarchial still showed hormone changes that indicated internal puberty changes before the other visible changes came about. There was one study that said that acne can precede other signs of puberty such as pubic hair and breast development--they determined puberty had happened by measuring hormone levels.

That said, I also feel that we are agreeing in some ways but describing the problem differently. Even stress is largely a hormonally involved event. Maybe if we really really stressed out a four year old and gave them full blown type 2 diabetes (insulin problems) and stimulated androgens through weight lifting and dairy consumption, we could cause acne without the markers for puberty necessarily being in place. But to say that's happening because of inflammation only without the help of hormones is a bit silly.

I'm also curious if you even personally have acne as traditionally defined, as you seem to report "reactions" from time to time that do not sound like acne at all. For example, how was your MSM-induced acne different from your typical acne? Do you truly think the MSM-induced "acne" was even acne?

I don't think it's all about inflammation and of course hormones are involved and you are affecting your hormones with diet. I don't know why you are telling me this. I've only said so a million times.

And I don't believe the MSM issue was true acne just like I don't believe my cystic acne caused by a delayed response to a food is true acne. Also wonder if the breakouts some women experience with their menstual cycle is true acne. By true acne I mean the process they tell us takes weeks to occur


Status: Clear after 30 years. Wow, I guess it's been 6 years, now.

[ Story: Severe Acne since I was 10. 10+ years of Dermatologists, Antibiotics, topicals and ACCUTANE did nothing. Discovered oranges triggered the worst of my cystic acne = about 70% improvement. Tried some nutrient supplements like B-complex with zinc and C, saw palmetto and a BHA like the aspirin mask = more improvement, a lot less oily. Then, Diet changes = Clear.

Regimen: Anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense, blood sugar stabilizing diet and supplements (for hormones, inflammation, aging, health). No soap or other cleanser except for hand washing! Water only or Oil cleanse. Aloe Vera mixed with niacinimide and a high linoleic acid oil for moisturizer and reduce pigmentation.

Diet effects acne in so many ways: hormone balance, inflammation, Insulin levels, digestion, allergies and intolerances, liver function, adrenal function, SHBG levels, sebum quality, cell function and turnover, nutrient deficiencies, body fat, etc. Basic advice: Eat, sleep, supplement and exercise like you are a diabetic. And eat real food!

For more information, see my Good Things for Acne thread *Moderator edit - Please refer to the board rules (see “Advertising/soliciting”, “Linking” and “Signatures”)*

When you eat stuff, Stuff Happens!


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Some people want to give up on the diet thing, and that's fine with me. As for me, I'm going to go to the pool with no makeup on. Obviously people who have figured out the diet/acne link are the winners in this situation. I don't really care if people call me nuts, say my diet is ludicrous or rubbish, or othersuch nonsense. My skin looks great. If it's all an elaborate coincidence and has nothing to do with my radical and sudden diet change, then... just kidding. Of course it was my diet change. UUUUUGH. I'm done.

Alternatvista, your article says nothing about what starts the inflammation cycle. Without androgenic action on the pilosebaceous unit, the necessary events for the inflammation specifically in the pore that create the acne pustule cannot take place. You do not have to have "oily" skin to have just enough androgenic action to start the cycle which does result in inflammation near the end of the chain. Many people with seemingly dry skin on the surface still get blockages underneath the skin in cyst-like form. Have you ever had a stage four acne cyst excavated by a doctor? I have. Guess what, there is always a sebum pore blockage deep in the skin. Yet I have "dry" skin on the surface.

There are cysts that do not have a pore blockage. But definitions are important. What differentiates acne from similar skin conditions is the pore blockage. If there is no pore blockage, then it's not acne you're not looking at.

If you could possibly have ZERO androgenic action and ZERO sebum production, then you would not get acne. However even people with dry skin do not have zero androgens and nor do they have zero sebum. EVERY adult out there has some sebum. You don't need a lot to create the pore blockage that leads to an acne pustule.

This is why acne does start during and/or after puberty, because once puberty activates the hormones those hormones never completely go away, and typically you will always have more hormones after puberty than before. So you're way more likely as a 40 year old to have acne than a 4 year old purely based on your hormonal levels.

Tons of hormonal changes also occur later in life even if you live a great healthy stress-free life. Menopause is just one great example. In some women, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered in favor of testosterone. This can even happen in perimenopause. No wonder some middle aged women start getting acne out of the blue.

Also a huge point is that you are affecting your hormones every day by your lifestyle and what you eat. You may think it's all about inflammation, and it partially is. But you are modifying your hormones (including insulin/glucose) with every "anti-inflammatory" step you take. To say that it's initiated by inflammation is somewhat disingenuous as you can be as inflamed as you want, but if you had zero androgenic action and zero sebum you simply could not form the pore blockage that leads to acne. We can shut down the acne cycle much quicker by changing the hormones (major: insulin, minor: testosterone) than trying to address all the modalities of skin inflammation that are preceded by hormonal events. As most traditional acne treatments are either anti-bacterial or anti-inflammatory, certainly inflammation is a key step. But if your anti-inflammatory treatments are in no way affecting the internal hormonal events (e.g. something like benzoyl peroxide), your chances of eliminating acne are slim at best. Of course if you can do BOTH, more power to everyone.

You highlighted stress. Even the most stressed out four year old does not have acne. I have worked with many troubled kids with terrible lives, mental disorders, high amounts of stress, abuse. They don't have pustular acne in the prepubescent stage. The whole cascade of hormones simply aren't in place for the particular type of acne to develop. Studies of girls that were considered premenarchial still showed hormone changes that indicated internal puberty changes before the other visible changes came about. There was one study that said that acne can precede other signs of puberty such as pubic hair and breast development--they determined puberty had happened by measuring hormone levels.

That said, I also feel that we are agreeing in some ways but describing the problem differently. Even stress is largely a hormonally involved event. Maybe if we really really stressed out a four year old and gave them full blown type 2 diabetes (insulin problems) and stimulated androgens through weight lifting and dairy consumption, we could cause acne without the markers for puberty necessarily being in place. But to say that's happening because of inflammation only without the help of hormones is a bit silly.

I'm also curious if you even personally have acne as traditionally defined, as you seem to report "reactions" from time to time that do not sound like acne at all. For example, how was your MSM-induced acne different from your typical acne? Do you truly think the MSM-induced "acne" was even acne?

I don't think it's all about inflammation and of course hormones are involved and you are affecting your hormones with diet. I don't know why you are telling me this. I've only said so a million times.

And I don't believe the MSM issue was true acne just like I don't believe my cystic acne caused by a delayed response to a food is true acne. Also wonder if the breakouts some women experience with their menstual cycle is true acne. By true acne I mean the process they tell us takes weeks to occur

My acne doesn't take weeks to occur if I have it. I've always speculated that none of it is true acne. If I had a glass of milk, my skin would start to be tight and irritated and tomorrow I would have something going on on my chin. I'm wary of using the word allergy, but if there was an allergy to sugar, I would definitely have it. When I do have true acne, it goes away very quickly, and is just a small clogged pore. It's rarely inflamed like the reaction acne I get. I have no idea what's what, just that I don't want it on my face. That's why I'm so nuts about my food.

Suffered from acne as a young adult that went into remission when put on hormonal birth control. Went off the HBC around age 22 and the acne returned with a vengeance (along with a host of other hormonal complaints). 100% clear with a modified diet that excludes dairy, sugars, grains, citrus and cured meats and emphasizes whole food-based nutrition from both plant and animal sources, most notably organ meats like liver and juiced whole vegetables. I have included a recipe for the most helpful juice I have come up with for skin complaints. I drink it every day, and it is invaluable for acne due to the large amounts of vitamin A (carotenoids) from both the carrots and beets. It also helps improve your coloring if you are very fair, giving you a pinkish, more radiant look (not orange. Don't worry!).

Magic Juice

In a juicer, combine:

5-6 carrots

1 medium beet

2-3 stalks of celery

1 small apple (Green is preferred. Omit if you are very sugar-sensitive)

1 small (1inch) piece of ginger (optional, but good for digestion)

This makes a variable amount of juice depending on the size of the vegetables you use.

Drink this throughout the morning until it's gone. Store in the fridge not longer than one day.

Having perfectly clear skin on my wedding day was worth all the headache and effort of figuring out how diet affects acne!

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So right now, all acne treatments step in to stop acne somewhere in that chain. Benzoyl peroxide helps with "blockages" and "bacteria." Salicylic acid helps with "blockages" and slightly with "inflammation." Accutane shrinks the sebaceous gland. Some other medications directly change the hormone levels.


~my face will be the death of me~

acne: resistance is futile!


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It does matter if it's actually acne because the treatment can be completely different. Some folliculitis is fungal, for example. Slathering on some Clearasil may help your acne but it will probably do very little for fungal folliculitis. Papulopustular rosacea looks a lot like acne but typically does not respond to acne treatments either. Galderma is currently doing trials for a drug specifically for papulopustular rosacea because it is NOT acne and needs a different approach. For years doctors treated it the same "it looks like acne" so let's give all the rosaceans Accutane. That blew up in their face when it didn't clear the pustules and it also made the other signs of rosacea (erythema) worse.

Lumping together all similar looking skin conditions is NOT a good idea and can harm the patient when attempting to treat it.

Accutane does NOT shrink the gland forever, which is why we have this nasty little thing called acne recurrence after Accutane. Sebaceous glands grow back over time. The rate of growth varies between individuals.

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GreenGables

 


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This thread is full of people giving out advice on hormones. The more i read the more i see that people giving out advice on hormones clearly know nothing about Hormones.


Formerly Nicky D

If you stand for nothing then you will fall for anything


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This thread is full of people giving out advice on hormones. The more i read the more i see that people giving out advice on hormones clearly know nothing about Hormones.


~my face will be the death of me~

acne: resistance is futile!


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