Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Augustina073

Do Icepick/boxcar Scars Fill In?

30 posts in this topic

The treatments I mentioned do encourage collagen synthesis, which precisely why they tighten the skin. That is why they are commonly referred to as collagen induction treatments.That does not, however, fill in the scar. The added collagen in the skin acts in the same way that extra fat would, tightening the area and reducing the appearance. This is why many people report that their scars are shallower but wider after laser treatments. That is also why as the aging process continues, scars eventually reappear to some extent, because the skin is not "tight" anymore and collagen is depleted again (unless of course the scar tissue itself was leveled or softened by subcision for example).

I would have to respectfully disagree that water fasting has any benefit of promoting healing to scars. The study you posted is based off a case where the mice fasted while a wound was created. The scar tissue we are referring to is no longer a wound, it has already formed and matured. An injury of some sort needs to be created in order to initiate the wound healing process again, which is where needling and laser treatments come in.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get what you are saying, but I still don't buy it - do you have a source? Where would the new collagen go, if not into the recessed valley?

The following is specifically about acne scars, from the journal Dermatology Research and Practice (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958495/):

  1. Granulation Tissue Formation. Damaged tissues are repaired and new capillaries are formed. Neutrophils are replaced by monocytes that change into macrophages and release several growth factors including platelet-derived growth factor, fibroblast growth factor, and transforming growth factors α and β, which stimulate the migration and proliferation of fibroblasts [16]. New production of collagen by fibroblasts begins approximately 3 to 5 days after the wound is created. Early on, the new skin composition is dominated by type III collagen, with a small percentage (20%) of type I collagen. However, the balance of collagen types shifts in mature scars to be similar to that of unwounded skin, with approximately 80% of type I collagen [17].
  2. Matrix Remodelling. Fibroblasts and keratinocytes produce enzymes including those that determine the architecture of the extracellular matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) and tissue inhibitors of MMPs. MMPs are extracellular matrix (ECM) degrading enzymes that interact and form a lytic cascade for ECM remodeling [18]. As a consequence, an imbalance in the ratio of MMPs to tissue inhibitors of MMPs results in the development of atrophic or hypertrophic scars. Inadequate response results in diminished deposition of collagen factors and formation of an atrophic scar while, if the healing response is too exuberant, a raised nodule of fibrotic tissue forms hypertrophic scars [19].

Skin needling is a recently proposed technique that involves using a sterile roller comprised of a series of fine, sharp needles to puncture the skin. At first, facial skin must be disinfected, then a topical anesthetic is applied, left for 60 minutes. The skin needling procedure is achieved by rolling a performed tool on the cutaneous areas affected by acne scars (Figure 6), backward and forward with some pressure in various directions. The needles penetrate about 1.5 to 2x2009.gifmm into the dermis. As expected, the skin bleeds for a short time, but that soon stops. The skin develops multiple microbruises in the dermis that initiate the complex cascade of growth factors that finally results in collagen production. Histology shows thickening of skin and a dramatic increase in new collagen and elastin fibers. Results generally start to be seen after about 6 weeks but the full effects can take at least three months to occur and, as the deposition of new collagen takes place slowly, the skin texture will continue to improve over a 12 month period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone is saying scars don't fill in, but I've had some holes on my face that have definitely filled in. I had a few scars that just vanished over time.

How long did it take? Where were they? & were they big ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With laser resurfacing and needling, the collagen forms evenly throughout the skin, not necessarily just into the recessed area. Even when stamping an individual scar, you're supposed to target the scar and area around it so that the newly formed collagen can stretch the scar from all different angles otherwise you'll still have harsh edges.

The very last part is actually correct, scar tissue can take up to 12 months to completely mature, meaning the scar tissue can slightly soften within that period of time. I believe (meaning I read it in some study that I now cannot find, go figure lol, will post later if and when I do) that after 6 weeks about half of collagen synthesis has taken place, and very slowly over the course of typically about 12 months it can increase. That number may be a little more or less, I don't remember. Anyone feel free to correct may if you can find that information before I do because I forget. I know that with laser resurfacing, results are expected to be seen at about 6 months but maximum at 12 months. Collagen synthesis wouldn't take 4-5 years to completely form, though, like what I've read here and there on this forum. The anti-aging effects lasers don't even last that long.

Back to the water fasting..I don't think it'd be a good idea to fast on and off for 12 months for little if any benefit.

To the OP: You're better of keeping the area moisturized while the scar matures and try not to use anything that can increase inflammation in the area.

And, have you seen any softening in the tissue? And do you have any pictures? Your scarring sounds like it's mild, so there is definitely hope for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First you are trying to extrapolate from animal models to humans, which we know is helpful in understanding general physiological mechanisms that influence wound healing, but is an over-simplification. Second, Missuama is correct in pointing out that the effects of fasting on wound healing in that study were NEWLY created wounds that are still healing and remodeling. Fasting would have a negligible effect on long-standing scars that have already fully matured. If your scars are only months old, then I can see a remote possibility that it could influence healing.

Virtually all scar treatments work through CONTROLLED damage to essentially create a NEW wound so that it can heal in a more aesthetically acceptable fashion. Subcision, excisions, lasers, dermabrasion, chemical peels, CROSS, and needling are all scar therapies that induce scar remodeling through inflicting damage on the scarred areas. Fillers, which work by replacing lost volume, are basically the only modality that doesn't rely on inflicting controlled damage to a effect a change in the scarring.

I get what you are saying, but I still don't buy it - do you have a source? Where would the new collagen go, if not into the recessed valley?

The following is specifically about acne scars, from the journal Dermatology Research and Practice (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958495/):

  1. Granulation Tissue Formation. Damaged tissues are repaired and new capillaries are formed. Neutrophils are replaced by monocytes that change into macrophages and release several growth factors including platelet-derived growth factor, fibroblast growth factor, and transforming growth factors α and β, which stimulate the migration and proliferation of fibroblasts [16]. New production of collagen by fibroblasts begins approximately 3 to 5 days after the wound is created. Early on, the new skin composition is dominated by type III collagen, with a small percentage (20%) of type I collagen. However, the balance of collagen types shifts in mature scars to be similar to that of unwounded skin, with approximately 80% of type I collagen [17].
  2. Matrix Remodelling. Fibroblasts and keratinocytes produce enzymes including those that determine the architecture of the extracellular matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) and tissue inhibitors of MMPs. MMPs are extracellular matrix (ECM) degrading enzymes that interact and form a lytic cascade for ECM remodeling [18]. As a consequence, an imbalance in the ratio of MMPs to tissue inhibitors of MMPs results in the development of atrophic or hypertrophic scars. Inadequate response results in diminished deposition of collagen factors and formation of an atrophic scar while, if the healing response is too exuberant, a raised nodule of fibrotic tissue forms hypertrophic scars [19].

Skin needling is a recently proposed technique that involves using a sterile roller comprised of a series of fine, sharp needles to puncture the skin. At first, facial skin must be disinfected, then a topical anesthetic is applied, left for 60 minutes. The skin needling procedure is achieved by rolling a performed tool on the cutaneous areas affected by acne scars (Figure 6), backward and forward with some pressure in various directions. The needles penetrate about 1.5 to 2x2009.gifmm into the dermis. As expected, the skin bleeds for a short time, but that soon stops. The skin develops multiple microbruises in the dermis that initiate the complex cascade of growth factors that finally results in collagen production. Histology shows thickening of skin and a dramatic increase in new collagen and elastin fibers. Results generally start to be seen after about 6 weeks but the full effects can take at least three months to occur and, as the deposition of new collagen takes place slowly, the skin texture will continue to improve over a 12 month period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites