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#41 alternativista

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:57 AM

My question is still this: WHY DOES THE HOLISTIC FORUM EXIST if it's not supported even by Dan himself? That is just a contradiction and undermines the potential all those intelligent contributions could make in informing people that acne is multifaceted and can be "cured" or kept under control through a variety of methods.

 

I am confused as to why you are stating that I do not support the holistic forum. Where and when did I say I do not support that forum? Far from not supporting it, I hope to some day find a way to cure acne using only organic, natural methods and I'm glad debate continues in this area. As I stated above, I am open to this.

 

Diet & healthy lifestyle should not be lumped in with treatments like dabbing toothpaste on a pimple.   

 

And regardless, they vary in effectiveness.  Some are extremely effective. 


Edited by alternativista, 24 April 2014 - 12:21 PM.


#42 WishClean

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

Those who say they hope that healthier methods will eventually be accepted into the mainstream should know that support starts from forums like this one. If noone supports these methods, obviously they won't become more popular. 

Sometimes I really don't know why we bother conveying this point of view if the majority is not receptive to it. The cultural conditioning that goes on in terms of the "more is more" mentality and that drugs are the only option just baffles me. 



#43 TemperateCent

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:45 AM

Wishclean said it best:

 

 

to each their own. This is a polarized, pointless debate because noone is going to change each other's mind. So why do you keep arguing? Get a life.



#44 alternativista

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:33 PM

Wishclean said it best

 

Yes. SHE did.  In every post she made. 

 

But again, back to the point of this thread which you completely missed.  The Nutrition & health based treatments are lumped under home remedies that could be things like dotting toothpaste on a pimple.  And labeled ineffective.  When those remedies vary in effectiveness with some being very effective.

 

The diet and acne connection is also listed under acne myths.  And in the so-called "Diet and Acne- The Full Story" page, which is far from the full story, every study is scrutinized for flaws.  Where's the scrutiny of the research into pharmeceuticals?  For years they prescribed accutane without knowing how it worked. It said so in the Physician's Desk Reference.

 

Also, most of the description under  home remedies consists of this statement:

"Without the ability to penetrate the skin and delivery the oxygen needed to kill acne bacteria, any topical treatment, whether it is found in a store, pharmacy, or kitchen, is limited."

 

Which is wrong.  Bacteria is the least important factor in acne formation and not where you want to focus your efforts. Killing everything is really not the answer, in anything, but especially not your body when it comes to chronic conditions, especially harmless ones.  The bacteria belongs there. It's part of how your skin functions and is protective.  P. Acnes for example, has found to be protective against MRSA infections. As I don't want my arm or worse amputates someday, I'll be leaving my P.Acnes bacteria alone.  And yet, I keep my skin clear of my formerly severe acne.

 

Those who say they hope that healthier methods will eventually be accepted into the mainstream should know that support starts from forums like this one. If noone supports these methods, obviously they won't become more popular. 

Sometimes I really don't know why we bother conveying this point of view if the majority is not receptive to it. The cultural conditioning that goes on in terms of the "more is more" mentality and that drugs are the only option just baffles me. 

 

But everyone here isn't saying they hope one day methods will be accepted.  We hope one day healthy methods will be accepted  They hope one day a method will be found.  Which absolutely baffles me.  What do they think we will find someday?  

 

Researchers have learned what happens to you when you consume excess sugars.  What happens when you don't consume nutrients and fill up on refined carbs and industrialized fats and have poor stress, sleep & physical activity habits.  Chronic Silent Inflammation and screwed up hormones and Damaged arteries, the wrong lipid profile which then leads to chronic disease.  Which is why this society is rampant with these self inflicted chronic diseases. The inflammation, the hormones & the lipid profile also directly affect the events that lead to acne. 

 

This is what clears skin:

 

Healthy lifestyle with natural circadian cycle, stress management, physical activity and nutrient dense, anti-inflammatory, blood sugar stabilizing diet habits that don't include anything you have an intolerance for.



#45 Kim0728

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:05 PM

Wishclean said it best:

 

 

to each their own. This is a polarized, pointless debate because noone is going to change each other's mind. So why do you keep arguing? Get a life.

 

Wow! And the only "arguing" I've seen on this thread was from her posts...such an angry person. Sorry you had to deal with that. If that kind of temperament comes from a holistic diet/lifestyle, no thanks--I'll keep the acne! :)



#46 alternativista

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:51 PM



Wishclean said it best:
 
 




to each their own. This is a polarized, pointless debate because noone is going to change each other's mind. So why do you keep arguing? Get a life.

 
Wow! And the only "arguing" I've seen on this thread was from her posts...such an angry person. Sorry you had to deal with that. If that kind of temperament comes from a holistic diet/lifestyle, no thanks--I'll keep the acne! :)
What the hell are you talking about? What's with this false attack? Maybe your drugs are making you imagine things. Or lack of nutrients maybe making it difficult to think or comprehend what you read. And easily angered. Diet affects temperament and ability to cope, you know.

This is her thread. The request was for the moderators. Most of the people jumping in here had no business doing so.

And she didn't say a single angry thing. She's never been anything but nice and helpful. That's what comes from health.

Edited by alternativista, 24 April 2014 - 02:58 PM.


#47 TemperateCent

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:30 PM

 



Wishclean said it best:
 
 




to each their own. This is a polarized, pointless debate because noone is going to change each other's mind. So why do you keep arguing? Get a life.

 
Wow! And the only "arguing" I've seen on this thread was from her posts...such an angry person. Sorry you had to deal with that. If that kind of temperament comes from a holistic diet/lifestyle, no thanks--I'll keep the acne! smile.png
What the hell are you talking about? What's with this false attack? Maybe your drugs are making you imagine things. Or lack of nutrients maybe making it difficult to think or comprehend what you read. And easily angered. Diet affects temperament and ability to cope, you know.

This is her thread. The request was for the moderators. Most of the people jumping in here had no business doing so.

And she didn't say a single angry thing. She's never been anything but nice and helpful. That's what comes from health.

Wrong again. This is a thread for anyone to comment in. If it was only for a moderator she could have sent them a message. And if it's only for her, why are you here? Why did she post a topic in a separate forum linking this thread asking for people to post in here and support it?



#48 dscully

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:02 PM

Yeesh, guys... Continue snarking and making ad-hominem attacks, noobs! We'll gladly welcome you back when you've run out of new things to slather on your zits and nothing is working for you!


Anywho, I don't really care if people call me granola, weird, wacko, etc. They're just jelly because my skin looks amazeballs and theirs doesn't. When people comment on my great skin, I tell them about how horrible it was, and that I gave up dairy, sugar, and processed foods and traded those in for vegetable juice. Having good skin is WORK. Lots of people don't want to put the hours and effort into what it takes to do it so they give up and make excuses. It's okay. I did that for a while, too. There is a sort of "why me??" that is at the heart of all acne treatments and advertising. Easy to get into a victim mindset.


Edited by dscully, 25 April 2014 - 01:03 PM.


#49 Kim0728

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:17 PM

Wow. Common threads among these three holistic posters: personal attacks and hostility. I'm headed back to the Accutane forum, where people are friendly and supportive! Peace! :)



#50 WishClean

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

The point of this thread was to question the dismissal of so-called home remedies. Everyone who got offended is because they have something at stake and don't like to have their viewpoints questioned. But the fact that this thread started a debate that got even Dan involved shows that there was validity to the original question I asked on this thread. Otherwise, why would you all keep posting here? hmmm.

Sadly, I haven't received a satisfactory justification to my question from Dan or anyone else involved with acne.org about the hierarchy in the list of treatments.

Also, I am still waiting to see those papers on the long term safety of chemicals/topicals and drugs. Since those will not magically appear because they don't exist to a satisfactory extent, I will keep questioning established treatments and will give advice to whoever is receptive to other, less harsh methods.



#51 invisiblenetrix

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 08:33 PM

common guys - let's not forget that we're all in the same boat and the real enemy is acne, not each other!



#52 epictrojan

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:20 PM

I think this argument is being drawn out too long by it's supporters. It is Dan's site and whether he has an agenda or not, I think his conclusions are mostly reasonable and generally accepted.

 

Of course, everybody would prefer a natural, safe solution but it's pretty much fact that they are largely ineffective. For example, for those who took accutane, success rates are very high to the point where it is reasonable to say that that it's the most powerful treatment. Now in comparison, many other approaches have barely any success, the fact that a few people on the internet say it worked for them disregards the many for whom it didn't work.

 

Regarding diet and lifestyle, yes, some people improve a lot when their diet improves, but this is still a very very small minority. Countless others have improved their lifestyles and still notice no changes. It's frustrating to hear "just fix your diet and you will improve" when you do this and there's no change while you know people who have terrible diets and lifestyles etc who have never had a problem - hence the general comment that bad diet doesn't equate to acne.

 

In some circumstances there are underlying causes such as nutrition deficiencies which if fixed would be a complete cure. Yet it doesn't make sense for people to suggest these approaches over ones with known success, even if they are just "band aid" solutions. Sure, a user here may have major improvements with vitamin A supplements for example, but the approach is clearly largely ineffective if you have to suggest no dairy, no sugar, no processed food, lemon juice masks, baking soda, supplement vitamin B, vitamin C, vitamin D, niacin, sulphur, zinc, random vegetables, herbs, oils and even then, most people don't find a very successful treatment. Even those who do, often can't quantify or prove its effectiveness (e.g. "it looks like i've improved a bit" and/or "it only worked for a short while"). If someone found something natural that worked as well as the common treatments then it would quickly become known as an effective treatment and it would be common knowledge and people wouldn't have to suggest the pharmaceuticals.

 

For the record, and I'm sure you will pick this post apart anyway but I also support and use natural approach in conjunction with other treatments. From a reasoned standpoint, I don't think the holistic approach is being dismissed as it's true that it's largely ineffective.


Edited by epictrojan, 27 April 2014 - 12:22 PM.


#53 k3tchup

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:44 PM

I support the holistic thread even as i embrace medicine and use it in my daily practice. I may have difference in opinion with what is said down there and probably do the opposite in my own life at times, but i know there can be a connection between the to which is being discussed here and i support what they have said. I see it more as i age and get passed the years of hormonally unstable (teen years; early adult). Just because three HUGE contributors comment does not mean that is the whole forum sector. 

 

Your interpreting anger for frustration. The type of frustration you get when trying to explain something to an individual with bias presets. Its hopeless unless they some how stumble into it themselves.

 

 

On a side note:  "P. Acnes for example, has found to be protective against MRSA infections" 

I had no idea. Really interesting! Is that why i haven't contracted MRSA from all those patients....

But i doubt people will be given P. bacterias instead of Vancomycin. Although, it probably would be cheaper...



#54 Dan

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

Hey you guys. I thought about this and think it was worth discussion and a minor change. Thanks for bringing it up. I have changed Home Remedies from "largely ineffective" to "largely unproven" and also moved it above heat therapy.

 

 

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#55 WishClean

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 09:06 PM

Hey you guys. I thought about this and think it was worth discussion and a minor change. Thanks for bringing it up. I have changed Home Remedies from "largely ineffective" to "largely unproven" and also moved it above heat therapy.

Great, that's a start...

I also think you should add a separate section for Diet/ Vitamins because those are not really home remedies. Home remedies are things like honey, yogurt, lemon, toothpaste as mentioned by alternativista. What about diet, herbs, and supplements?

 

These are not largely unproven...in fact, there are scientific studies about them, but of course not funded by major pharmaceutical companies. However, there is a significant amount of studies. Here's a starting point..I don't have time to pull up a whole list, but if you check pubmed  and ncbi you'll find more studies. Also, I have tried some of those approaches and can verify they are effective. I took no medication and used no topicals to recover from severe cystic acne as well as other kinds of acne. If that's not proof, I don't know what is. Same goes for all the people posting on the holistic forum as well as some posting in the hormonal forum who control hormonal acne without pills.

 

- The relationship of diet and acne (with other links to other relevant studies): http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2836431/

- Low glycemic diet improves acne vulgaris: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17616769

- Diet and acne: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20338665

- The role of medical nutrition for acne:http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23438493

- acne vulgaris: a diseas of western civilization: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/12472346/

- Glycemic Index, Glycemic Load: New evidence for a link with acne: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20234032

- The effect of a high-protein, low glycemic-load diet versus a conventional, high glycemic-load diet on biochemical parameters associated with acne vulgaris: a randomized, investigator-masked, controlled trial.http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17448569

- Milk (there are other better studies than this as well): http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19243483

- Role of insulin, hyperglyceamic food, and milk in acne: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19709092

- Vitamin B5 and acne (there are some better ones, I couldn't find them right now. There are also posted on doctor's websites): http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7476595

- The gut and acne connection:

1.  Probiotics and gut issues, and acne: http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3038963/: "...there appears to be more than enough supportive evidence to suggest that gut microbes, and the integrity of the gastrointestinal tract itself, are contributing factors in the acne process. 

2. Leaky gut and acne  (book excerpt written by a doctor): http://www.ei-resour...ulty-digestion/  >>> and many more studies and books on this. Even Dr. Oz talked about it.

 

- Inositol for hormonal acne & other pathologies:

  1. Unfer V, Carlmango G, Dante G, Facchinetti F (2012) Effects of myo-inositol in women with PCOS: a systematic review of randomized controlled trials. Gynecol Endocrinol 28(7):509-15.
  1. Gerli S, Papleo E, Ferrari A, Renzo GC (2007) Randomized, double blind placebo-controlled trial: effects of Myo-inositol on ovarian function and metabolic factors in women with PCOS. European Review for Medical and Pharmacological Sciences 11: 347-354.
  1. Zacchè MM, Caputo L, Filippis S, Zacchè G, Dindelli M, Ferrari A (2009) Efficacy of myo-inositol in the treatment of cutaneous disorders in young women with polycystic ovary syndrome. Gynecol Endocrinol 25(8):508-13.
  1. Lam S, McWilliams A, leRiche J, MacAulay C, Wattenberg L, Szabo E (2006) A Phase I Study of myo-Inositol for Lung Cancer Chemoprevention. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 15: 1526.

- Vitex and hormonal acne (there are more studies online): http://www.examiner....yndrome-or-pcos

 

-Niacinamide/ Niacin & acne: In a double-blind trial, 76 individuals with moderately severe acne were treated with either 4% niacinamide gel or 1% clindamycin gel (a standard antibiotic treatment). 13 Niacinamide proved to be just as effective as the antibiotic over an 8-week trial period. (inconclusive)

 

This is just a small sample...I don't have all night to find everything, but the point is to show that, in addition to anecdotal evidence, there are medical studies on diet and vitamins & acne.


Edited by WishClean, 29 April 2014 - 09:10 PM.


#56 Dan

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

Great post WishClean. Everything on Acne.org is based on scientific research. That's just how it has to be. I will have a look at the above posted articles, but I have read most of them already. I can tell just by the titles when I click those links. I'm pretty obsessed with reading anything acne that comes out on PubMed.

 

And alternatavista, you say "Healthy lifestyle with natural circadian cycle, stress management, physical activity and nutrient dense, anti-inflammatory, blood sugar stabilizing diet habits that don't include anything you have an intolerance for," and I'm all for that but that is a tall order for the vast, vast majority of people. I tried to go on an anti-inflammatory diet with 25 Acne.org members back in the day and I was literally the only one who was still doing it after a month or so. And furthermore, while it is anecdotal, even with this diet, physical activity (I work out almost every day), meditation (I also do this most days), and regular, good sleep, I still broke out. So trying to put together all of these good things did not work for my skin. In fact, I got some pretty nasty, gross breakouts doing this once my weight leveled off.

 

Anyway, discussing stuff like this and trying all sorts of natural stuff is a good thing. I sincerely hope we can come up with a natural way to cure acne that works across the population, so let's keep talking about it. I will take your comments under close advisement as well. [btw, why is this text bolded and italicized!? I can't make it not be. grrr]



#57 5beauty

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:49 AM

Not sure if the mods could address this. It's something that kind of bothers me on acne.org, a forum that supposedly supports various approaches to acne. I know the main point for some (Dan) is to make money off of the regimen products (let's be real, $$$ is part of the reason why this site exists, even though it's helping a lot of people). But I still think that in the list of possible acne treatments here http://www.acne.org/treatments.html , natural remedies shouldn't be labeled as largely ineffective. What's the point of having a Diet & Holistic forum on acne.org if the hosting site doesn't even support diet and holistic approaches to acne?
Sorry for being nit picky, media analysis is my job and I inevitably analyze these things. I just think it's ironic and biased to dismiss natural treatments while pushing accutane and dan's products as the most effective treatments. I thought Dan was all about alternative research and finding new things that work, not pushing something that has so many potential side effects while also discounting the experiences of so many people who fight acne the natural way. 
Can someone give me an answer or correct the label on that page? It bothers smart people like me to see such narrow mindedness on that page. And if there is scientific evidence to back up that list, fine, then there are so many other scientific papers that list all the detrimental side effects of accutane and bp. Therefore, these treatments are not 100% successful and they are controversial. I just think other approaches should be given some merit, otherwise what is the point of having separate sub forums if you're only going to push 2 mainstream treatments? At least give it a "Somewhat Effective" rating...it's offensive to the hundreds of people (thousands over the years) who are posting on the holistic forum.
Anyway, my rant is over. 


I SO AGREE WITH YOU. I use the regimen along with natural remedies. What i have figured is that the regimen is placebo working, it does nothing to me because i was suspicious from the beggining. I totally feel the commerce behind this. Moreover the assistant's posts on all the regimen users are promoting the purchase of the basic regimen AND the additional products. This is what i shout on my "notes on the regimen" thread, but all i get is irony and judgement from particular users. Thank god there is at least one more person who has the same feeling, as i do.
Btw, natural treatments are HIGHLY effective if you are persistent, indeed. You have all my love wishclean!!!

#58 Dan

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:57 PM

It turns out I have read almost all of those links you gave WishClean. I read the two that I hadn't previously, the Dermato Endocrinology from 2009 and the EiR one. My thoughts:

 

Dermato Endocrinology: They came to the same conclusions I have...that more research is still required. The last sentence of their article states, "To date, the research does not prove that diet causes acne but rather influences it to some degree which is still difficult to quantify." Still, I had fun reading it and learned a few new things.

 

EiR one: They list "Symptoms of Food and Environmental Sensitivity" and include literally everything I can think of. This is a good example of something I would call "unproven." If symptoms of leaky gut and its ensuing sensitivity can include about 75 things (I counted) which encompass pretty much anything anyone can experience, that's a red flag for me. This is also written by one person, a PhD/Critical Care Nurse, and is published in The Environmental Illness Resource, which I do not believe is peer reviewed in any way. Still, I found it interesting to learn about the intestinal lining.



#59 WishClean

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:48 PM

It turns out I have read almost all of those links you gave WishClean. I read the two that I hadn't previously, the Dermato Endocrinology from 2009 and the EiR one. My thoughts:

 

Dermato Endocrinology: They came to the same conclusions I have...that more research is still required. The last sentence of their article states, "To date, the research does not prove that diet causes acne but rather influences it to some degree which is still difficult to quantify." Still, I had fun reading it and learned a few new things.

 

EiR one: They list "Symptoms of Food and Environmental Sensitivity" and include literally everything I can think of. This is a good example of something I would call "unproven." If symptoms of leaky gut and its ensuing sensitivity can include about 75 things (I counted) which encompass pretty much anything anyone can experience, that's a red flag for me. This is also written by one person, a PhD/Critical Care Nurse, and is published in The Environmental Illness Resource, which I do not believe is peer reviewed in any way. Still, I found it interesting to learn about the intestinal lining.

 

Yes, these studies are tentative, but it's the only clinical evidence we have at this point due to lack of interest on this topic in the medical community. As I said those studies are small scale....it takes a lot of money and resources to actually conduct large-scale studies, but at least these provide some starting points. Also, even with large scale studies on "proven" remedies, there are questionable variants and external factors that are not accounted for. There's really no perfect model for a research paper on these things. 

 

About anti-inflammatory diets, I have to say that I followed some of the guidelines for those, and I also tried other popular diets like the candida diet. It turns out that my issue was different and the person who helped me was an allergist, not a dermatologist. The allergist told me I had high histamines in my blood possibly due to gut issues/ IBS...so I began doing a low histamine diet and taking digestive enzymes and most of the inflammation was gone rapidly. Plus, I had less flare ups because I realized that some of my acne was actually resembling welts, which is why dermatologists couldn't properly identify it.

So diet really depends on each person. I was following the wrong diet for me, and I'm sure other people who get frustrated with the "diet approach" just haven't found a tailor-made diet to suit their nutritional needs. 

The problem with so-called alternative methods to treat acne is that they are impossible to mass market...how can you mass produce and mass sell something that should be customizable for every patient? It's impossible. Even supplements that are herbal blends usually don't work on everyone because it's hard to get the right mix and the right % of each ingredient to work for everyone's body. 

 

But anyway, the point is, I think that home remedies and nutrition/supplements can be put in 2 separate categories to distinguish between the 2. Home remedies are topicals, nutrition and supplements are internal. 

 

It's great though that you keep an open mind, it makes me feel better for using this site and I'm glad you took the time to address this thread.


Edited by WishClean, 01 May 2014 - 08:53 PM.


#60 JoshD1987

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  • Location:California
  • Joined: 10-February 13

Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:48 PM

As somebody who has been an on-again, off-again member of the forum for a couple years, I think the owner of this site provides a really valuable service. 

 

I don't see any advertisements on the site, so I have no problem at all with him making money by selling some proven products - how else could he keep the site going?

 

just m,y 0.02.






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