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Why The Bias?

natural remediesacne.org capitalism bias narrow minded drug pushing dan rant

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#1 WishClean

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:00 PM

Not sure if the mods could address this. It's something that kind of bothers me on acne.org, a forum that supposedly supports various approaches to acne. I know the main point for some (Dan) is to make money off of the regimen products (let's be real, $$$ is part of the reason why this site exists, even though it's helping a lot of people). But I still think that in the list of possible acne treatments here http://www.acne.org/treatments.html , natural remedies shouldn't be labeled as largely ineffective. What's the point of having a Diet & Holistic forum on acne.org if the hosting site doesn't even support diet and holistic approaches to acne?

Sorry for being nit picky, media analysis is my job and I inevitably analyze these things. I just think it's ironic and biased to dismiss natural treatments while pushing accutane and dan's products as the most effective treatments. I thought Dan was all about alternative research and finding new things that work, not pushing something that has so many potential side effects while also discounting the experiences of so many people who fight acne the natural way. 

Can someone give me an answer or correct the label on that page? It bothers smart people like me to see such narrow mindedness on that page. And if there is scientific evidence to back up that list, fine, then there are so many other scientific papers that list all the detrimental side effects of accutane and bp. Therefore, these treatments are not 100% successful and they are controversial. I just think other approaches should be given some merit, otherwise what is the point of having separate sub forums if you're only going to push 2 mainstream treatments? At least give it a "Somewhat Effective" rating...it's offensive to the hundreds of people (thousands over the years) who are posting on the holistic forum.

Anyway, my rant is over. 


Edited by WishClean, 20 April 2014 - 09:10 PM.


#2 Lilly75

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:31 PM

Here's how I see it (just my opinion and I could be wrong) but...

 

Acne.org is a community forum for people with acne. Supporting people with acne in different ways including it being a 'platform' for people with acne to 'connect' and discuss all things acne and different treatments, and through that, being a place to find out about many different possible treatments (that may or may not work for each individual for any number of reasons). 

 

Don't forget that for someone to use the acne.org regimen and for it to be effective, they do not have to use the acne.org products sold through the site. There are a number of store-bought / over the counter products recommended - you don't have to buy 'through Dan' / the acne.org store / send any money in the site's direction. 

 

There is still an info page on the site about diet and and acne in case you haven't seen it  http://www.acne.org/diet-and-acne.html

 

I don't think the site is dismissing other approaches to acne treatment.

I think the treatment overview page you're referring to and the part that says 'largely ineffective' (the home remedies section) isn't 'unsupportive' of a natural or hollistic approach. It even says it's something to remain open to. I think in that instance it's comparing such remedies to things that have been shown to work more consistently and for a wider range of people (I'm guessing) - such as bp - and the mechanisms in which they work. So maybe it's 'ineffective' in comparison - but obviously for some people they've found such treatments to be effective for them. As with any approach, there's bound to be variation in each case. 

 

I'd hope most people would be smart enough to do their own research into things and look into whatever approach (or combination of approaches) was of interest to them and inform themselves. 



#3 TemperateCent

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:57 PM

This topic is biased because you posted another thread in the "natural" section asking those people if they agree and then linking to this topic.

#4 WishClean

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

A person clueless about acne who first stumbles upon this site will look at the treatments and of course pick the ones labeled as most effective, sometimes without considering the alternatives. 



#5 TemperateCent

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:19 PM

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

 


If they were successful you wouldn't still be here.



#6 WishClean

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

I'm still here to learn more about health and nutrition, and to help others. You are still here because you still have acne, and you will disappear once your acne is gone.



#7 lionfish

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:50 AM

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

A person clueless about acne who first stumbles upon this site will look at the treatments and of course pick the ones labeled as most effective, sometimes without considering the alternatives. 

And this is a bad thing?!  

IMO even though accutane hasn't worked so great for me at least there is actual scientific evidence showing the benefits of traditional prescription medications / treatments.   Plus lots of feedback from people who post reviews. 

 

It seems to me the problem with 'alternative' and 'natural' options is the lack of evidence that they actually work. Plus the limited feedback available. 

 

 

Although I do agree this site does push "The Regimen"  very hard as 'best' treatment.  This is a free forum/service which is great.  But as such users keep their eyes open to the fact that the price they are paying is the heavy marketing of the site owners products. 



#8 alternativista

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:04 AM

Diet and healthy lifestyle has been the ONLY effective treatment for me. and I spent over a decade going to various dermatologists and taking their drugs and using harsh topicals. And two courses of accutane.



I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 
A person clueless about acne who first stumbles upon this site will look at the treatments and of course pick the ones labeled as most effective, sometimes without considering the alternatives. 

And this is a bad thing?!  
IMO even though accutane hasn't worked so great for me at least there is actual scientific evidence showing the benefits of traditional prescription medications / treatments.   Plus lots of feedback from people who post reviews. 
 
It seems to me the problem with 'alternative' and 'natural' options is the lack of evidence that they actually work. Plus the limited feedback available. 
 
 
Although I do agree this site does push "The Regimen"  very hard as 'best' treatment.  This is a free forum/service which is great.  But as such users keep their eyes open to the fact that the price they are paying is the heavy marketing of the site owners products. 
There is tons of scientific evidence showing how various nutrients and diet in general affect acne.

I'm still here to learn more about health and nutrition, and to help others. You are still here because you still have acne, and you will disappear once your acne is gone.



I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

 

If they were successful you wouldn't still be here.
Yes. I too am still here to discuss health, share information and help others. In fact, my diet changes cleared my skin before I even found this forum.

It should not say diet and lifestyle is largely ineffective, when they are not only very effective, it's the best treatment with benefits far mor important than clear skin. Healthy diet should not be the alternative treatment. It should be the number one treatment.

Edited by alternativista, 21 April 2014 - 07:07 AM.


#9 nicmic62

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:16 AM

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

A person clueless about acne who first stumbles upon this site will look at the treatments and of course pick the ones labeled as most effective, sometimes without considering the alternatives. 

And this is a bad thing?!  

IMO even though accutane hasn't worked so great for me at least there is actual scientific evidence showing the benefits of traditional prescription medications / treatments.   Plus lots of feedback from people who post reviews. 

 

It seems to me the problem with 'alternative' and 'natural' options is the lack of evidence that they actually work. Plus the limited feedback available. 

 

 

Although I do agree this site does push "The Regimen"  very hard as 'best' treatment.  This is a free forum/service which is great.  But as such users keep their eyes open to the fact that the price they are paying is the heavy marketing of the site owners products. 

 

I definitely agree that home remedies have a lack of evidence if they really work. I think it is because there are too many factors that go into testing this and it would be hard to come up with concrete evidence. And if they do work with someone, it is more often than not that they won't work on the next person.



#10 WishClean

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:37 AM

Who will fund those studies exactly? Noone will profit from studying the effects of nutrition and supplements, which is why pharmaceutical companies do no sponsor those studies. It's a very money oriented business. 

I am well aware of Western medicine and I'm not saying everything about it is BS. I go to an integrative doctor, I know a lot about western and other forms of medicine, often more than the doctors. And I have a doctorate too, so I wouldn't just take everything at face value. I use myself as an example first, and then also consider anecdotal evidence and literature/research. In fact, I could pull up studies that show the free radical damage BP does in the long run. It's not hard to do that but that wasn't my point in starting this thread. I just wanted to know that the site I use so often at least mildly supports a forum that is part of it. 

And you are forgetting that drugs used to be the alternative treatment because natural remedies were there long before medication and chemical topicals. Even accutane is based on the effects of vitamin A on the body but, typical of western medicine, it is an extreme treatment and as these forums show, not even effective some people who are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th course. 



#11 leelowe1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:09 AM

Wish Clean, i see your point of view and i know that it is frustrating to see certain remedies fall under blanket statements (such as effective or ineffective).  Don't take it to heart though.  As you stated, Dan is a business man and whether or not we like it, he can run his site any way he sees fit.  If anything, people need to take everything they read here with a grain of salt as there is no one size fits all model, even with holistic routes.  In the end, everyone should try to be as healthy as possible on the inside whether or not it helps acne.



#12 Kim0728

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:53 PM

I wouldn't call it a bias--if natural/holistic cures haven't worked for most people, they will say so. For me, I completely changed my lifestyle to try to manage acne. I already exercised five days a week and got at least eight hours of sleep at night, but I started yoga and eating an almost 100% clean/whole foods/vegan diet. No dairy, little to no sugar, no processed or refined foods for months--and it didn't do a thing for my acne.

 

The only things that have worked for me were BP and now Accutane. So I'm not biased against a clean lifestyle--in fact, I still follow it--but it didn't work for me, and it looks like it didn't work for many others either. It's not a bias, it's just a fact.



#13 k3tchup

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:35 PM

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

 


If they were successful you wouldn't still be here.

I am astounded that your negativity on these forums has gone unchecked. Seriously, you need to change your attitude and stop attacking other members. She is here as a contributor much the same as I. We each have our own ways regardless of our success or not.  We are here to help and provide perspective. 

 

Stop displacing your feelings onto others, please.



The link is no longer up. However, I think the business model here is sly and inappropriate. It is his website and business, but advertising without hard facts that alternative methods are largely ineffective is just a lie to make people believe his method is best therefore  you should buy into it. It may work. If it does, great, just don't discredit other methods as well, especially if you are going to allow discussion of it with different form headings. 

 

I personally find education to be a big issue among acne suffers. This community serves to educate even the basics principals to anyone who cares to read. Therefore, it is in my mind inappropriate to capitalize on peoples ignorance when they are often times so desperate for help willing to believe what they see without question. 


Edited by k3tchup, 21 April 2014 - 05:36 PM.


#14 Lilly75

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:41 PM

Thought I should just clarify that you should be able to view the page by clicking 'other treatments' at the top (I still can, but when I pasted the link here it wouldn't work)

 

I do see your point WishClean - so maybe it would be good if the wording could be changed

 

I think the site still supports a hollistic or dietary approach or is open to it - if it didn't support it, wasn't open to it or didn't want people to discuss any such approach, there wouldn't be a diet and hollistic health forum in the first place



#15 TemperateCent

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

 

I see your point, lilly. The main issue I have is with the hierarchy in the listing and the labeling of the various treatments. If it says "highly ineffective" that's a huge blow to all those people including myself who spend so much time posting *successful* alternative remedies to acne. 

 


If they were successful you wouldn't still be here.

I am astounded that your negativity on these forums has gone unchecked. Seriously, you need to change your attitude and stop attacking other members. She is here as a contributor much the same as I. We each have our own ways regardless of our success or not.  We are here to help and provide perspective. 

 

Stop displacing your feelings onto others, please.

 

If you don't like my posts then don't read them. You keep responding to my posts and attacking them. I'm not going to change just to make you happy.
 



#16 5ive

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

I remember reading those pages, too, on acne.org. It was surprising to read that diet was brushed off so easily, and Dan himself has stated that he gave up milk, saw himself getting clear, but attributed this to being malnourished in regards to calories.

 

It's a sad reality that money IS the motivating factor in most pharmaceuticals. There is no money in promoting natural, diet-related remedies. Right before I found out about giving up milk, I was prescribed accutane. I was told my acne was "all over my cheeks" and was moderate. You can see for yourself on my log that this was not the case. The doc was literally handing out prescriptions of accutane like it was no big deal. Luckily I did my research and decided to take a more holistic approach to acne.

 

Low and behold, after reading for years diet is not related to acne, I decided, wtf, I am going to try it. And voila, months of clear skin. Showing that the statement by Dan that diet has little to no effect on skin and that BP will take care of any issues with diet is kind of garbage. Sure, I was decently clear just with BP, but I still would get breakouts and pimples here and there, diet was the missing link!



#17 WishClean

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:08 PM

As the no.1 acne website, it shouldn't be so biased in favoring certain treatments over others. As others above have pointed out, an ignorant person who is desperate and knows nothing about acne (as I was years ago) will go for the most favored treatment with no regard for the consequences. Had I known years ago that there were less harsh alternatives I would not have slathered my face with chemicals or bombarded my body with hormones, antibiotics, etc. 

Don't get me wrong. I am thankful that Dan had the common sense to host this site and I know that, while it's free for us to use, it costs him and his team money to maintain it. For that I am thankful, and good for him for capitalizing on his idea although he should definitely research free radical damage and BP some more because the answers he gave about that are not convincing.

 

At least to keep up the appearance of a democratic, non capitalistic website, that "largely ineffective" label needs to be changed to something less extreme otherwise it's a huge insult to everyone who spends time posting on the holistic/diet forum.

 

Also, PLEASE someone show me some hard facts about the LONG TERM safety (10-20 years+) of topicals and accutane that have not been sponsored by a pharmaceutical company (such as University research papers, public funding etc). Where is the evidence? Show me. 


Edited by WishClean, 21 April 2014 - 09:15 PM.


#18 TemperateCent

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:33 PM

Don't tell him how to run his site.



#19 Dan

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

Everyone is biased in some way. That's why it's important to state your bias, which I do in multiple areas of the site. As a Critical Sociology major we were trained to do just this.

 

However, to state that I am biased because of money is inaccurate. I heavily favored The Regimen for 8 years before I even decided to make products because it flat out works better than anything else out there aside from Accutane. Speaking of Accutane, I talk a lot about Accutane, and even call it the most powerful tool we have even though anyone who ends up going on Accutane is unlikely to buy any Acne.org products.

 

Regarding diet and holistic home remedies in particular, I do think they are "largely ineffective." This means to me that the vast majority of them are ineffective. I chose the term "largely ineffective" because I didn't want to just say "ineffective" since there may be some isolated incidences where some holistic remedies work for some people. I remain open to something holistic and organic that can clear acne and will be the first to champion anything that empircally shows real world results and accessibility. However, I have yet to see that. There are case reports of home remedies or diets working at least somewhat for some people, but there are no diets or home remedies that completely clear the skin across the population that I am aware of. Case reports are simply not enough to say these things are "effective." 

 

As I state on the http://www.acne.org/what-i-use.html page: 

Screen Shot 2014-04-22 at 11.41.04 AM.png



#20 WishClean

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 04:05 PM

If the big man took time to respond, it means there are valid points here. As I stated above, the fact that this is the no.1 acne website means he did something right, and I respect that and appreciate the effort to host a worldwide community. 

I have a solid background in the sciences and the humanities, and I can combine both along with my own critical thinking to make up my mind about what works and what doesn't.  People who cannot think in this capacity will of course buy into (literally) the 2 options presented here. And it' not surprising that a lot of the people who post on the holistic forum have actually tried all those medical  treatments first, and now they want a healthier approach. What's so wrong about that? Just because there are no hard facts? Hard facts begin with anecdotal evidence, that's how science progresses. If there are no new methods to fight acne, then how will science progress?  Are we going to keep relying on treatments from the 80s? And obviously, based on the complaints posted about various existing treatments, those don't necessarily work in the long run either. 

Also, healthy bodies DO NOT HAVE ACNE. If there's acne, there's something wrong with the body. Granted, BP treats acne on a surface level...if that is the issue (bacteria etc), then it's solved. But a lot of people use topicals for other forms of acne that are not skin-deep, such as hormonal acne. If the body's response to a problem (acne) is muted, then it doesn't mean that problem (internal issues/hormones/ allergies/etc) doesn't exist.

 

My question is still this: WHY DOES THE HOLISTIC FORUM EXIST if it's not supported even by Dan himself? That is just a contradiction and undermines the potential all those intelligent contributions could make in informing people that acne is multifaceted and can be "cured" or kept under control through a variety of methods.

 

I'm still waiting for those hard facts I asked for btw... eusa_think.gif


Edited by WishClean, 22 April 2014 - 04:08 PM.





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