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#41 Michelle Reece

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:18 PM

 

I've held this back for a while but I  have to say this...

 

Okay, I remember posting here back in 2005 when I was 15 years old and it seemed acne.org was such a positive place for people dealing with active acne looking for support. Back then people were less judgemental and everyone seemed to (relatively) get along.

 

Now this websites mentality has changed, there is a fanatical push on obsessively healthy diet here as a "cure" for acne and a resonating "blame the victim" mentality which results in constant bickering. There are people being chastised by other members for taking accutane and critiqued for their diet/lifestyle. There are members leaving because they can't take the negativity.

 

What happened here? Does anyone else who has been around this web community for a while recognize what went wrong here.

 

I came across acne.org right around 2007. Granted, I was an occasional visitor, but I do recall the taurine, B-complex supplement and liver detoxing fads.

 

I suspect that the alternative medicine and "natural is good" notions spread very quickly right after the acai berry and green tea fads during that time. That's when online advertising became more sophisticated and prevalent. Many of the "high-tech" and "revolutionary" advertising companies that are now ubiquitous either started 2007-2008 or experienced massive growth.

 

The "natural, DIY is best" mentality is rife in the other skin care forums too. It really doesn't help that you can get a lot of stuff on Amazon and eBay, particularly with dangerous chemical peels.

 

I definitely see an enormous change over the last nine years. Before there was much more logical posts in regards to the skin response to p.acnes and the proposal of a vaccine for inflammatory acne. Now the mentality has sadly switched over to "natural is best, government is evil!" ect. - yet we're no closer to finding a "cure" or more effective treatments for acne.

 

**edit** I do remember the green tea/herbal laxative colon cleansing fad around 2006 on these forums but it was never this aggressive. Now we have minimally educated people claiming that acne is self induced and that genes can be turned "on" and "off" like a light switch with good eating. They also (as you read earlier) are claiming that all cancer can be cured and prevented entirely with herbs, rick simpson oil and a rawfood diet.

 

I wholeheartedly wish there was more moderation on this website in regards to the hollistic forum (that seems to be spilling over into practically every section) so these people wouldn't have so much power.

 

I think the holistic advocates got more aggressive lately, especially when others started questioning more of it.

 

Yeah, I do agree more on the moderation part. I've read post advocating outright dangerous nonsense. Could be trolling, sure, but there should be a line drawn somewhere.


Edited by Michelle Reece, 21 March 2014 - 09:20 PM.


#42 bubbles55

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:50 PM

 

 

I've held this back for a while but I  have to say this...

 

Okay, I remember posting here back in 2005 when I was 15 years old and it seemed acne.org was such a positive place for people dealing with active acne looking for support. Back then people were less judgemental and everyone seemed to (relatively) get along.

 

Now this websites mentality has changed, there is a fanatical push on obsessively healthy diet here as a "cure" for acne and a resonating "blame the victim" mentality which results in constant bickering. There are people being chastised by other members for taking accutane and critiqued for their diet/lifestyle. There are members leaving because they can't take the negativity.

 

What happened here? Does anyone else who has been around this web community for a while recognize what went wrong here.

 

I came across acne.org right around 2007. Granted, I was an occasional visitor, but I do recall the taurine, B-complex supplement and liver detoxing fads.

 

I suspect that the alternative medicine and "natural is good" notions spread very quickly right after the acai berry and green tea fads during that time. That's when online advertising became more sophisticated and prevalent. Many of the "high-tech" and "revolutionary" advertising companies that are now ubiquitous either started 2007-2008 or experienced massive growth.

 

The "natural, DIY is best" mentality is rife in the other skin care forums too. It really doesn't help that you can get a lot of stuff on Amazon and eBay, particularly with dangerous chemical peels.

 

I definitely see an enormous change over the last nine years. Before there was much more logical posts in regards to the skin response to p.acnes and the proposal of a vaccine for inflammatory acne. Now the mentality has sadly switched over to "natural is best, government is evil!" ect. - yet we're no closer to finding a "cure" or more effective treatments for acne.

 

**edit** I do remember the green tea/herbal laxative colon cleansing fad around 2006 on these forums but it was never this aggressive. Now we have minimally educated people claiming that acne is self induced and that genes can be turned "on" and "off" like a light switch with good eating. They also (as you read earlier) are claiming that all cancer can be cured and prevented entirely with herbs, rick simpson oil and a rawfood diet.

 

I wholeheartedly wish there was more moderation on this website in regards to the hollistic forum (that seems to be spilling over into practically every section) so these people wouldn't have so much power.

 

I think the holistic advocates got more aggressive lately, especially when others started questioning more of it.

 

Yeah, I do agree more on the moderation part. I've read post advocating outright dangerous nonsense. Could be trolling, sure, but there should be a line drawn somewhere.

 

Not to mention all their bold and scientifically unfounded claims. For example "leaky gut"? - that's the oldest quack diagnosis in the book.

 

Here's a website that lists made-up diagnosis quack doctors commonly give to patients

 

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/fad.html

 

 

Recognize any of them? I see leaky gut, candida, adrenal fatigue, imaginary food allergies. discussed at length on acne.org as "real conditions". So many people lack natural skepticism.


Edited by bubbles55, 21 March 2014 - 09:50 PM.


#43 k3tchup

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:27 AM

Acne is totally a genetic disease. Coming from my old dermatologist (VERY smart man) said so himself. All acne is genetic.

Well you can believe what you wish, but from the literature i've reviewed this hasn't turned out to be true or proven. Smart man or not its not "all" genetic. And in school this is hardly the case as nurses are taught when it comes to educating clients about their aliments such acne. 

 

The website has changed, the community has grown far to big, people have embraced the success of others to the extreme causing the crusade for a "cure" to continue instead of actually looking at living and managing.Old additives of less is more are thrown out the window with stupid stunts of consuming megadoses of vitamins, buying expensive products, conducting endless research, playing doctor, starting "new diets"- all to end their misery right now.Many come to hear expressing their stories for ways to cope and others abuse that by expressing every detail, exaggerating, then blame acne as the cause for the whole life's misery.

 

And others follow...  

 

I've read these forums since 2007. A lot has changed and not for the better. 



 

 

 

I've held this back for a while but I  have to say this...

 

Okay, I remember posting here back in 2005 when I was 15 years old and it seemed acne.org was such a positive place for people dealing with active acne looking for support. Back then people were less judgemental and everyone seemed to (relatively) get along.

 

Now this websites mentality has changed, there is a fanatical push on obsessively healthy diet here as a "cure" for acne and a resonating "blame the victim" mentality which results in constant bickering. There are people being chastised by other members for taking accutane and critiqued for their diet/lifestyle. There are members leaving because they can't take the negativity.

 

What happened here? Does anyone else who has been around this web community for a while recognize what went wrong here.

 

I came across acne.org right around 2007. Granted, I was an occasional visitor, but I do recall the taurine, B-complex supplement and liver detoxing fads.

 

I suspect that the alternative medicine and "natural is good" notions spread very quickly right after the acai berry and green tea fads during that time. That's when online advertising became more sophisticated and prevalent. Many of the "high-tech" and "revolutionary" advertising companies that are now ubiquitous either started 2007-2008 or experienced massive growth.

 

The "natural, DIY is best" mentality is rife in the other skin care forums too. It really doesn't help that you can get a lot of stuff on Amazon and eBay, particularly with dangerous chemical peels.

 

I definitely see an enormous change over the last nine years. Before there was much more logical posts in regards to the skin response to p.acnes and the proposal of a vaccine for inflammatory acne. Now the mentality has sadly switched over to "natural is best, government is evil!" ect. - yet we're no closer to finding a "cure" or more effective treatments for acne.

 

**edit** I do remember the green tea/herbal laxative colon cleansing fad around 2006 on these forums but it was never this aggressive. Now we have minimally educated people claiming that acne is self induced and that genes can be turned "on" and "off" like a light switch with good eating. They also (as you read earlier) are claiming that all cancer can be cured and prevented entirely with herbs, rick simpson oil and a rawfood diet.

 

I wholeheartedly wish there was more moderation on this website in regards to the hollistic forum (that seems to be spilling over into practically every section) so these people wouldn't have so much power.

 

I think the holistic advocates got more aggressive lately, especially when others started questioning more of it.

 

Yeah, I do agree more on the moderation part. I've read post advocating outright dangerous nonsense. Could be trolling, sure, but there should be a line drawn somewhere.

 

Not to mention all their bold and scientifically unfounded claims. For example "leaky gut"? - that's the oldest quack diagnosis in the book.

 

Here's a website that lists made-up diagnosis quack doctors commonly give to patients

 

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/fad.html

 

 

Recognize any of them? I see leaky gut, candida, adrenal fatigue, imaginary food allergies. discussed at length on acne.org as "real conditions". So many people lack natural skepticism.

 

Exactly. This brings about some pretty crazy stuff. The sad part is it works.. but not for the reasons the person may claim, but provides a damn good background and explanation which convinces many people whom do not question the really legitimacy of it. Many also make their own experiments but then end up adding in extra variables like "then i added x,y, z vitamins, exercised, eliminated foods known to cause acne or allergic reactions" and now im cured. Basing the claim off some special diet or idea when most of the time its not even true. Reminds me craze to eat alkaline foods in order to make your body more basic than acidic. The body is already basic at a pH of 7.35-7.45 and has EFFECTIVE buffers to counteract acid/base imbalances. Although, eating alkaline foods helps with certain other medical conditions such as certain types of kidney stones and interstitial cystitis.

 

The point is people promote crap really. Not all but from time to time i get a good laugh on this site on whats new.  



#44 Michelle Reece

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:30 AM

 

 

 

I've held this back for a while but I  have to say this...

 

Okay, I remember posting here back in 2005 when I was 15 years old and it seemed acne.org was such a positive place for people dealing with active acne looking for support. Back then people were less judgemental and everyone seemed to (relatively) get along.

 

Now this websites mentality has changed, there is a fanatical push on obsessively healthy diet here as a "cure" for acne and a resonating "blame the victim" mentality which results in constant bickering. There are people being chastised by other members for taking accutane and critiqued for their diet/lifestyle. There are members leaving because they can't take the negativity.

 

What happened here? Does anyone else who has been around this web community for a while recognize what went wrong here.

 

I came across acne.org right around 2007. Granted, I was an occasional visitor, but I do recall the taurine, B-complex supplement and liver detoxing fads.

 

I suspect that the alternative medicine and "natural is good" notions spread very quickly right after the acai berry and green tea fads during that time. That's when online advertising became more sophisticated and prevalent. Many of the "high-tech" and "revolutionary" advertising companies that are now ubiquitous either started 2007-2008 or experienced massive growth.

 

The "natural, DIY is best" mentality is rife in the other skin care forums too. It really doesn't help that you can get a lot of stuff on Amazon and eBay, particularly with dangerous chemical peels.

 

I definitely see an enormous change over the last nine years. Before there was much more logical posts in regards to the skin response to p.acnes and the proposal of a vaccine for inflammatory acne. Now the mentality has sadly switched over to "natural is best, government is evil!" ect. - yet we're no closer to finding a "cure" or more effective treatments for acne.

 

**edit** I do remember the green tea/herbal laxative colon cleansing fad around 2006 on these forums but it was never this aggressive. Now we have minimally educated people claiming that acne is self induced and that genes can be turned "on" and "off" like a light switch with good eating. They also (as you read earlier) are claiming that all cancer can be cured and prevented entirely with herbs, rick simpson oil and a rawfood diet.

 

I wholeheartedly wish there was more moderation on this website in regards to the hollistic forum (that seems to be spilling over into practically every section) so these people wouldn't have so much power.

 

I think the holistic advocates got more aggressive lately, especially when others started questioning more of it.

 

Yeah, I do agree more on the moderation part. I've read post advocating outright dangerous nonsense. Could be trolling, sure, but there should be a line drawn somewhere.

 

Not to mention all their bold and scientifically unfounded claims. For example "leaky gut"? - that's the oldest quack diagnosis in the book.

 

Here's a website that lists made-up diagnosis quack doctors commonly give to patients

 

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/fad.html

 

 

Recognize any of them? I see leaky gut, candida, adrenal fatigue, imaginary food allergies. discussed at length on acne.org as "real conditions". So many people lack natural skepticism.

 

Yep: leaky gut, toxin overload, adrenal fatigue, estrogen dominance (what does that even mean?), progesterone deficiency, IgG food allergies/intolerances, blood sugar spikes causing/contributing to acne...it's just insane. The basics in biology and chemistry escapes a lot of people here. Granted, some of them are under 16, but you'd think that someone who took biology in high school or college would remember this stuff. Mention anything about epithelial cells and a lot of people's eyes would glaze over. Epithelial cells were covered in my biology class--not as much as anatomy, though.

 

And you're right about lacking skepticism. A part of that originates from not having enough education/remembering facts, and another to desperation.



#45 Michelle Reece

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 06:23 PM

Acne is totally a genetic disease. Coming from my old dermatologist (VERY smart man) said so himself. All acne is genetic.

Well you can believe what you wish, but from the literature i've reviewed this hasn't turned out to be true or proven. Smart man or not its not "all" genetic. And in school this is hardly the case as nurses are taught when it comes to educating clients about their aliments such acne. 

 

The website has changed, the community has grown far to big, people have embraced the success of others to the extreme causing the crusade for a "cure" to continue instead of actually looking at living and managing.Old additives of less is more are thrown out the window with stupid stunts of consuming megadoses of vitamins, buying expensive products, conducting endless research, playing doctor, starting "new diets"- all to end their misery right now.Many come to hear expressing their stories for ways to cope and others abuse that by expressing every detail, exaggerating, then blame acne as the cause for the whole life's misery.

 

And others follow...  

 

I've read these forums since 2007. A lot has changed and not for the better. 



 

 

 

I've held this back for a while but I  have to say this...

 

Okay, I remember posting here back in 2005 when I was 15 years old and it seemed acne.org was such a positive place for people dealing with active acne looking for support. Back then people were less judgemental and everyone seemed to (relatively) get along.

 

Now this websites mentality has changed, there is a fanatical push on obsessively healthy diet here as a "cure" for acne and a resonating "blame the victim" mentality which results in constant bickering. There are people being chastised by other members for taking accutane and critiqued for their diet/lifestyle. There are members leaving because they can't take the negativity.

 

What happened here? Does anyone else who has been around this web community for a while recognize what went wrong here.

 

I came across acne.org right around 2007. Granted, I was an occasional visitor, but I do recall the taurine, B-complex supplement and liver detoxing fads.

 

I suspect that the alternative medicine and "natural is good" notions spread very quickly right after the acai berry and green tea fads during that time. That's when online advertising became more sophisticated and prevalent. Many of the "high-tech" and "revolutionary" advertising companies that are now ubiquitous either started 2007-2008 or experienced massive growth.

 

The "natural, DIY is best" mentality is rife in the other skin care forums too. It really doesn't help that you can get a lot of stuff on Amazon and eBay, particularly with dangerous chemical peels.

 

I definitely see an enormous change over the last nine years. Before there was much more logical posts in regards to the skin response to p.acnes and the proposal of a vaccine for inflammatory acne. Now the mentality has sadly switched over to "natural is best, government is evil!" ect. - yet we're no closer to finding a "cure" or more effective treatments for acne.

 

**edit** I do remember the green tea/herbal laxative colon cleansing fad around 2006 on these forums but it was never this aggressive. Now we have minimally educated people claiming that acne is self induced and that genes can be turned "on" and "off" like a light switch with good eating. They also (as you read earlier) are claiming that all cancer can be cured and prevented entirely with herbs, rick simpson oil and a rawfood diet.

 

I wholeheartedly wish there was more moderation on this website in regards to the hollistic forum (that seems to be spilling over into practically every section) so these people wouldn't have so much power.

 

I think the holistic advocates got more aggressive lately, especially when others started questioning more of it.

 

Yeah, I do agree more on the moderation part. I've read post advocating outright dangerous nonsense. Could be trolling, sure, but there should be a line drawn somewhere.

 

Not to mention all their bold and scientifically unfounded claims. For example "leaky gut"? - that's the oldest quack diagnosis in the book.

 

Here's a website that lists made-up diagnosis quack doctors commonly give to patients

 

http://www.quackwatc...Topics/fad.html

 

 

Recognize any of them? I see leaky gut, candida, adrenal fatigue, imaginary food allergies. discussed at length on acne.org as "real conditions". So many people lack natural skepticism.

 

Exactly. This brings about some pretty crazy stuff. The sad part is it works.. but not for the reasons the person may claim, but provides a damn good background and explanation which convinces many people whom do not question the really legitimacy of it. Many also make their own experiments but then end up adding in extra variables like "then i added x,y, z vitamins, exercised, eliminated foods known to cause acne or allergic reactions" and now im cured. Basing the claim off some special diet or idea when most of the time its not even true. Reminds me craze to eat alkaline foods in order to make your body more basic than acidic. The body is already basic at a pH of 7.35-7.45 and has EFFECTIVE buffers to counteract acid/base imbalances. Although, eating alkaline foods helps with certain other medical conditions such as certain types of kidney stones and interstitial cystitis.

 

The point is people promote crap really. Not all but from time to time i get a good laugh on this site on whats new.  

 

 

Yep, and if pH greatly affected the normal body and threw it into chaos like some insinuate, we'd be dead.



#46 Apple Blossom

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 05:51 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.


Edited by Apple Blossom, 25 March 2014 - 06:15 AM.


#47 bubbles55

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:54 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.



#48 paigems

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:45 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.

Aren't you around the same age?



#49 bubbles55

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:58 PM

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.

Aren't you around the same age?

 

I'll be 25 this year. Early 20's and mid 20's are honestly a world a way.



#50 paigems

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:25 PM

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.

Aren't you around the same age?

 

I'll be 25 this year. Early 20's and mid 20's are honestly a world a way.

22 really doesn't seem that far off from 25 to me.



#51 Ilovemesomevanity

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:50 PM

lots of passive aggression in this thread. why cant everyone have their own opinions?



#52 mm1990

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:40 PM

Bubbles, it seems rudeness is a unifying element in your topics. Before you posted about verbally attacking a girl with severe acne and now you are being incredibly condescending to another poster for no particular reason. You state that "early 20's and mid 20's are honestly a world a way," but your posts just prove that maturity and civility have nothing to do with age. 

 

You are articulate and I do not doubt you have a fair amount of knowledge regarding the subject at hand, but there is absolutely no need to be so incredibly unpleasant. I do not like calling people trolls because it is typically misused over a simple difference of opinion, but I cannot believe someone could be this mean without purposefully trying to start conflict. 


Edited by mm1990, 25 March 2014 - 11:41 PM.


#53 kylenea

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

Bubbles55--

 

Thanks! I've heard it once before! Lily Cole is dreamy! I usually get Taylor Swift....(YURK!!!)



#54 WishClean

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:33 PM

As someone who has a DOCTORATE degree and knows how to conduct research, let me tell you this: ACNE IS MULTIFACETED. Science can't explain ALL causes of acne. Don't exclude causes and don't make absolute statements. This thread has turned into what it was trying to critique: a thread full of hatred, criticism and negativity. 



#55 Quetzlcoatl

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:31 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.

 

I'm intrigued by the number of people that seem to think that we know everything about the world. But this is demonstrably false, because science exists. There are still things we don't know. And because there are always things we won't know, we need to understand that science is just a means to approximate truth. Sometimes we like to distort the meaning of science, and we forget that double blinded, perfectly controlled studies are not the only source of information - rather, they are the best source of information. Yet other sources of information still have value. Anecdotes can sometimes see things that epidemiological studies miss on the basis of significance. Moreover, scientists are human too (I should know, I am one). Not only do scientists make mistakes, but we also need to compete for funding. This intense competition provides an incentive to overstate results, or shuffle away side effects because they fell under the threshold of significance.

 

When it comes to acne, we are just now beginning to break the long-held paradigm of a disease with hormonal causation. It's taken decades for us to realize that acne isn't caused by sebum, but rather by immunological events that precede bacterial colonization. This pattern of paradigm destruction and reconstruction is widespread throughout the sciences, especially within biology - we're constantly finding new pieces to the puzzles that change how we view health and states of disease. Do you really want to bet everything on the flawed and mercurial theories of biology? We use a bottom-up approach to health that's akin to building a house without looking at the blueprint.  Do you think there will be no missteps? This kind of arrogance, which I'm also guilty of, has led to so much suffering. Just look at heart disease. Saturated fat intake, it's been reported, doesn't correlate with heart disease. Imagine that. All this advice from doctors and scientists for decades, and we had it wrong all along. In fact, we had it so wrong that the opposite was true. It now appears that our advice to 'eat low-fat' caused more heart disease, along with a plethora of other problems. I wonder how many people died early, and had our arrogant science to thank.

 

But that's not really the issue here. The issue is this: you started this thread to complain about a change in the mindset of this website's population from something you agree with, to something you disagree with. You're certainly right, too; this thread, and my response, are testament to that. But you're wrong to say that this change is inherently bad. Progress does not come from stagnation. Debates need to be had and evidence both scientific and anecdotal needs to be presented for solutions to be explored and discovered, hopefully in a reasonable manner (which doesn't always happen). I think most people would do well with a more open mind in this regard.

 

Still, you need to understand that those who support a more holistic solution are (usually) just trying to help. Some do it more elegantly than others. Sometimes, advice can be taken as a critique, and critique can be taken as an attack, which can devolve into accusations of scientific illiteracy or fallacy. But let me ask you this: what if these people are wrong? What if diet has no connection to acne at all, a waste of time for not just you or me, but for everyone? What if people clean up their diet, start exercising, sleep 8 hours a night, and get some sunshine, all for naught? What if, in this ridiculous example, people were able to grow and explore the realm of health a little bit for themselves, instead of just popping a few pills?

 

Is there really a tragedy here?



#56 paigems

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:28 AM

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that we can turn our genes on and off "like a light switch" by making lifestyle changes.  I was simply stating that gene expression and environment are not independent.

 

You're a young girl - I'm assuming 21-22 based on your picture? you have yet still a lot to learn. What you're taught in those college classes are just purported theories most of the time and not always scientifically accurate. Canadian universities are unfortunately not the best either, which is not surprising as Canada is a very mediocre country.

 

I'm intrigued by the number of people that seem to think that we know everything about the world. But this is demonstrably false, because science exists. There are still things we don't know. And because there are always things we won't know, we need to understand that science is just a means to approximate truth. Sometimes we like to distort the meaning of science, and we forget that double blinded, perfectly controlled studies are not the only source of information - rather, they are the best source of information. Yet other sources of information still have value. Anecdotes can sometimes see things that epidemiological studies miss on the basis of significance. Moreover, scientists are human too (I should know, I am one). Not only do scientists make mistakes, but we also need to compete for funding. This intense competition provides an incentive to overstate results, or shuffle away side effects because they fell under the threshold of significance.

 

When it comes to acne, we are just now beginning to break the long-held paradigm of a disease with hormonal causation. It's taken decades for us to realize that acne isn't caused by sebum, but rather by immunological events that precede bacterial colonization. This pattern of paradigm destruction and reconstruction is widespread throughout the sciences, especially within biology - we're constantly finding new pieces to the puzzles that change how we view health and states of disease. Do you really want to bet everything on the flawed and mercurial theories of biology? We use a bottom-up approach to health that's akin to building a house without looking at the blueprint.  Do you think there will be no missteps? This kind of arrogance, which I'm also guilty of, has led to so much suffering. Just look at heart disease. Saturated fat intake, it's been reported, doesn't correlate with heart disease. Imagine that. All this advice from doctors and scientists for decades, and we had it wrong all along. In fact, we had it so wrong that the opposite was true. It now appears that our advice to 'eat low-fat' caused more heart disease, along with a plethora of other problems. I wonder how many people died early, and had our arrogant science to thank.

 

But that's not really the issue here. The issue is this: you started this thread to complain about a change in the mindset of this website's population from something you agree with, to something you disagree with. You're certainly right, too; this thread, and my response, are testament to that. But you're wrong to say that this change is inherently bad. Progress does not come from stagnation. Debates need to be had and evidence both scientific and anecdotal needs to be presented for solutions to be explored and discovered, hopefully in a reasonable manner (which doesn't always happen). I think most people would do well with a more open mind in this regard.

 

Still, you need to understand that those who support a more holistic solution are (usually) just trying to help. Some do it more elegantly than others. Sometimes, advice can be taken as a critique, and critique can be taken as an attack, which can devolve into accusations of scientific illiteracy or fallacy. But let me ask you this: what if these people are wrong? What if diet has no connection to acne at all, a waste of time for not just you or me, but for everyone? What if people clean up their diet, start exercising, sleep 8 hours a night, and get some sunshine, all for naught? What if, in this ridiculous example, people were able to grow and explore the realm of health a little bit for themselves, instead of just popping a few pills?

 

Is there really a tragedy here?

Quetzlcoatl, you are a fantastic writer! And I totally agree with you :)



#57 Pianina

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:28 AM

I don't know what this site used to be, cause I joined last year, but after I was kinda "attacked" (don't know a milder word) after a stupid rant, which this site is filled with, I basically stopped posting or opening up in here.



#58 WishClean

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

Pianina, if you are referring to me among those people, then I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I was probably having a bad day and should not have criticized other people's posts in a harsh way. You should be free to post whatever and whenever you like.



#59 Twosteps

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:47 PM

I took accutane 8 years ago because I thought it was the cure for acne and I was too young to think I would experience side effects.  I still have acne.  I suffered terrible side effects and I still suffer from some of them today.  To hear accutane called a fantastic drug without acknowledging side effects sickens me.  There have been thousands of lawsuits and millions of dollars in settlements paid out from side effects from accutane.

 

Crohn's disease, heart attack, stroke, seizures, colon removal, pancreatitis, birth defects of the eyes, ears, brain and heart, and suicide.  Not to mention, you can do things like damage your heart without having a heart attack.  To attribute these side effects to pre-existing conditions or dismiss them because of low risk % is ignorant and disrespectful to people who have suffered tremendously.

 

Saying that accutane is a miracle and a fantastic drug perpetuates the idea that accutane cures acne and that is irresponsible.  Teens hit puberty and some of them develop pimples.  Parents take them to a derm and they are given antibiotics/topicals.  These don't work for all of them so they google "antibiotics didn't help my acne".  They are directed to acne.org because this is the preeminent acne source on the internet and they are quickly informed that when BP doesn't work the next step is accutane.  Even if you don't say it explicitly many uneducated teenagers connect accutane to a cure.  As a result, many teenagers who are not mature enough to evaluate the side effects (myself included) turn around and pressure their derms for a script.  You can say the derm was irresponsible for writing the script but that is another argument entirely.  

 
The drug does not always work and when it does work we have no way of knowing how many patients "cured" from accutane would have "grown out" of their acne in their late teens/early twenties.  Also, accutane was originally marketed as a combination chemotherapy drug.
 
I think accutane should only be given to teenagers with absolutely severe acne (adults is another story).  Accutane and it's generics generate well over 1 billion USD per year in sales so that will never happen.  The most I can hope for is that people who promote accutane on this board will mention that they are extremely grateful and lucky to not have experienced any of the horrendous side effects.  Knowing how accountability works on the internet I doubt that will happen either.
 
edit: i was way too aggressive towards OP, took out an asinine comment

Edited by Twosteps, 03 April 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#60 TemperateCent

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:11 PM

Twosteps, do you suggest Accutane for adults where nothing else worked? I am scared to take it, but I hate looking like this. 






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