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"estrogen Dominance" May Be A Histamine Problem

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#1 Green Gables

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:18 PM

Histamine and Hormones

Histamine-intolerant women often suffer from the symptoms listed above, especially headaches and menstrual pain, during certain phases of their menstrual cycle. Histamine levels tend to fluctuate with the level of hormones, especially oestrogen, at ovulation and just prior to the onset of menstruation. In contrast, many women with both allergies and histamine intolerance find significant relief of their symptoms during pregnancy; this is because the placenta makes a great deal of DAO, the enzyme that breaks down histamine. The result is that the level of histamine no longer exceeds the woman’s tolerance threshold, and she remains blissfully free from her symptoms throughout her pregnancy. Unfortunately, the symptoms tend to recur once the DAO from the placenta is no longer available after the birth of her child.

 

Pain and Inflammation. A low progesterone to estrogen ratio is associated with increased levels of molecules that cause inflammation. These molecules are called kinins. Estrogen increases kinin levels, and giving progesterone can decrease them. Kinins occur naturally in the body but promote the release of histamines. In conditions of allergic inflammation, kinins are elevated. High levels of kinins are linked to asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, and a number of bowel diseases.

 

Histamine stimulated a dose-related increase in estradiol secretion with a maximal stimulatory effect at 10(-3) mol/l.

 

To summarize:

- Progesterone promotes myelination, which is one of the pathways the body uses to break down histamine (primary pathways are DAO in the gut and HMT on the cellular level).

- Unopposed estrogen increases histamine overall, which is why some women feel better on progesterone, even if their progesterone is not actually low. 

- Histamine stimulated estrogen secretion. Catch-22? Estrogen increases histamine, increased histamine also increases estrogen...

- Estrogen increases kinins and progesterone decreases them. Kinins promote inflammation. If you have a histamine issue, progesterone may help by decreasing the kinins. 

 

 

I'm not making any blanket statements here. So no one get their panties in a twist if progesterone was your miracle cure. But it's an interesting discussion to get going.

 

Read the full article here. 

 

Other reading:

 

Histamine and histamine intolerance


Edited by Green Gables, 10 December 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#2 WishClean

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:44 PM

Wow, this is very interesting! eusa_clap.gif 

It seems like a chicken or egg thing...one causes the other and vice versa. So what would be a solution to break this cycle?  I have a supplement with DAO, but I'm saving it for emergencies....it seems that DAO enzymes need to be taken consistently and the body doesn't necessarily learn to produce more DAO on its own after a while...

Leaky gut can also cause a histamine problem, but that's a different story. 

I'll read the articles more closely when I have some time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now I'm starting to wonder if being on vitex was actually helping my histamine reactions, rather than causing them. It seems that every time I tried to reduce my dose or go completely off it my histamine reactions became more frequent. Probably because my estrogen and progesterone were no longer regulated. Hmm...


Edited by WishClean, 10 December 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#3 Green Gables

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:14 PM

Wow, this is very interesting! eusa_clap.gif

It seems like a chicken or egg thing...one causes the other and vice versa. So what would be a solution to break this cycle?  I have a supplement with DAO, but I'm saving it for emergencies....it seems that DAO enzymes need to be taken consistently and the body doesn't necessarily learn to produce more DAO on its own after a while...

Leaky gut can also cause a histamine problem, but that's a different story. 

I'll read the articles more closely when I have some time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now I'm starting to wonder if being on vitex was actually helping my histamine reactions, rather than causing them. It seems that every time I tried to reduce my dose or go completely off it my histamine reactions became more frequent. Probably because my estrogen and progesterone were no longer regulated. Hmm...

 

Yeah. For me, I'm using DAO with every meal to see if it decreases my rosacea flushing/blushing. Some are speculating that rosacea redness is more of a histamine issue than anything else. 

 

Haven't been using it that long, but it seems to reduce the heated facial feeling I get when I eat...anything. Except after about 5pm it is not effective for dinner. I have always had a 5pm+ evening facial flush that turns my face bright red for hours though.

 

I also use that digestive enzyme / betaine hcl / pepsin complex I linked you to earlier, it does great things for digestion, don't think it really helps the rosacea though. 


Edited by Green Gables, 11 December 2013 - 10:15 PM.


#4 WishClean

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:26 AM

Wow, this is very interesting! eusa_clap.gif

It seems like a chicken or egg thing...one causes the other and vice versa. So what would be a solution to break this cycle?  I have a supplement with DAO, but I'm saving it for emergencies....it seems that DAO enzymes need to be taken consistently and the body doesn't necessarily learn to produce more DAO on its own after a while...

Leaky gut can also cause a histamine problem, but that's a different story. 

I'll read the articles more closely when I have some time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now I'm starting to wonder if being on vitex was actually helping my histamine reactions, rather than causing them. It seems that every time I tried to reduce my dose or go completely off it my histamine reactions became more frequent. Probably because my estrogen and progesterone were no longer regulated. Hmm...

 

Yeah. For me, I'm using DAO with every meal to see if it decreases my rosacea flushing/blushing. Some are speculating that rosacea redness is more of a histamine issue than anything else. 

 

Haven't been using it that long, but it seems to reduce the heated facial feeling I get when I eat...anything. Except after about 5pm it is not effective for dinner. I have always had a 5pm+ evening facial flush that turns my face bright red for hours though.

 

I also use that digestive enzyme / betaine hcl / pepsin complex I linked you to earlier, it does great things for digestion, don't think it really helps the rosacea though. 

 

Interesting... I read about the benefits of DAO on The Low Histamine Chef's blog. She is a journalist and has done extensive research on histamine reactions. I have an enzymedica supplement that contains DAO, l-glutathione and other stuff, but right now I am only using digestive enzymes for food. Pretty sure betaine HCl was breaking me out, although I was tolerating it fine with no heartburn.  Plus, my stomach is really flat whenever I take it. Why do you think it breaks me out? 

Calcium d-glucarate also broke me out, not sure if that was a detox reaction but as soon as I stopped taking it the breakouts subsided last month. I wanted to try it because its mechanism seems very beneficial, and it was also kind of a test to see if I'd tolerate DIM if I ever decide to add it to my regimen. 

What DAO supplement are you taking? I read that supplementing with DAO long term can help the body produce more of it on its own, but I have a feeling it might be like other enzymes, where you ned to keep taking them and the body doesn't actually learn to produce the right amounts on its own (unlike HCl). 



#5 Green Gables

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:47 PM

 

Wow, this is very interesting! eusa_clap.gif

It seems like a chicken or egg thing...one causes the other and vice versa. So what would be a solution to break this cycle?  I have a supplement with DAO, but I'm saving it for emergencies....it seems that DAO enzymes need to be taken consistently and the body doesn't necessarily learn to produce more DAO on its own after a while...

Leaky gut can also cause a histamine problem, but that's a different story. 

I'll read the articles more closely when I have some time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now I'm starting to wonder if being on vitex was actually helping my histamine reactions, rather than causing them. It seems that every time I tried to reduce my dose or go completely off it my histamine reactions became more frequent. Probably because my estrogen and progesterone were no longer regulated. Hmm...

 

Yeah. For me, I'm using DAO with every meal to see if it decreases my rosacea flushing/blushing. Some are speculating that rosacea redness is more of a histamine issue than anything else. 

 

Haven't been using it that long, but it seems to reduce the heated facial feeling I get when I eat...anything. Except after about 5pm it is not effective for dinner. I have always had a 5pm+ evening facial flush that turns my face bright red for hours though.

 

I also use that digestive enzyme / betaine hcl / pepsin complex I linked you to earlier, it does great things for digestion, don't think it really helps the rosacea though. 

 

Interesting... I read about the benefits of DAO on The Low Histamine Chef's blog. She is a journalist and has done extensive research on histamine reactions. I have an enzymedica supplement that contains DAO, l-glutathione and other stuff, but right now I am only using digestive enzymes for food. Pretty sure betaine HCl was breaking me out, although I was tolerating it fine with no heartburn.  Plus, my stomach is really flat whenever I take it. Why do you think it breaks me out? 

Calcium d-glucarate also broke me out, not sure if that was a detox reaction but as soon as I stopped taking it the breakouts subsided last month. I wanted to try it because its mechanism seems very beneficial, and it was also kind of a test to see if I'd tolerate DIM if I ever decide to add it to my regimen. 

What DAO supplement are you taking? I read that supplementing with DAO long term can help the body produce more of it on its own, but I have a feeling it might be like other enzymes, where you ned to keep taking them and the body doesn't actually learn to produce the right amounts on its own (unlike HCl). 

 

I don't know, dear, everything seems to break you out strongsad.gif It is a little easier for me to know on spiro when something actually breaks me out vs. my own body just doing its crazy acne thing. For example, when DIM broke me out, I was REALLY surprised.

 

I'm using the Histame brand of DAO. 



#6 WishClean

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, it's hard to figure out what the triggers are when my body is in a reactive state. I figured that anything with "detoxing" properties is not helping my skin...

Anyway, these past 4 days I couldn't stick to my diet, so I had to eat some crappy airline & airport food. I took digestive enzymes with every meal, along with herpanacine vitamins & vit. C, and inositol every day, and I haven't noticed any big breakouts apart from some little zits that could be from not taking my makeup off for 2 days. I'm really surprised, but hopefully that means that my body is starting to heal itself and I won't have to be as restrictive about my diet during the holidays. eusa_think.gif

 

From the limited information about melasma and estrogen dominance I could find, it seems like DIM could help with that.

I'll need to look into this more....I am feeling like I have been having fewer histamine reactions, even though my body has been through hell these past few days because all my flights got delayed/canceled and I haven't slept well in days nor taken my makeup off properly. I'm not sure if the boost in progesterone caused by inositol is actually helping regulate my estrogen levels, and perhaps that's why my histamine reactions have decreased...

 

 

 

Wow, this is very interesting! eusa_clap.gif

It seems like a chicken or egg thing...one causes the other and vice versa. So what would be a solution to break this cycle?  I have a supplement with DAO, but I'm saving it for emergencies....it seems that DAO enzymes need to be taken consistently and the body doesn't necessarily learn to produce more DAO on its own after a while...

Leaky gut can also cause a histamine problem, but that's a different story. 

I'll read the articles more closely when I have some time, thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now I'm starting to wonder if being on vitex was actually helping my histamine reactions, rather than causing them. It seems that every time I tried to reduce my dose or go completely off it my histamine reactions became more frequent. Probably because my estrogen and progesterone were no longer regulated. Hmm...

 

Yeah. For me, I'm using DAO with every meal to see if it decreases my rosacea flushing/blushing. Some are speculating that rosacea redness is more of a histamine issue than anything else. 

 

Haven't been using it that long, but it seems to reduce the heated facial feeling I get when I eat...anything. Except after about 5pm it is not effective for dinner. I have always had a 5pm+ evening facial flush that turns my face bright red for hours though.

 

I also use that digestive enzyme / betaine hcl / pepsin complex I linked you to earlier, it does great things for digestion, don't think it really helps the rosacea though. 

 

Interesting... I read about the benefits of DAO on The Low Histamine Chef's blog. She is a journalist and has done extensive research on histamine reactions. I have an enzymedica supplement that contains DAO, l-glutathione and other stuff, but right now I am only using digestive enzymes for food. Pretty sure betaine HCl was breaking me out, although I was tolerating it fine with no heartburn.  Plus, my stomach is really flat whenever I take it. Why do you think it breaks me out? 

Calcium d-glucarate also broke me out, not sure if that was a detox reaction but as soon as I stopped taking it the breakouts subsided last month. I wanted to try it because its mechanism seems very beneficial, and it was also kind of a test to see if I'd tolerate DIM if I ever decide to add it to my regimen. 

What DAO supplement are you taking? I read that supplementing with DAO long term can help the body produce more of it on its own, but I have a feeling it might be like other enzymes, where you ned to keep taking them and the body doesn't actually learn to produce the right amounts on its own (unlike HCl). 

 

I don't know, dear, everything seems to break you out strongsad.gif It is a little easier for me to know on spiro when something actually breaks me out vs. my own body just doing its crazy acne thing. For example, when DIM broke me out, I was REALLY surprised.

 

I'm using the Histame brand of DAO. 


Edited by WishClean, 16 December 2013 - 06:23 PM.


#7 Green Gables

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:19 PM

Yeah. It is not always the estrogen either.

 

A while ago I got the results of a genetic test back, and I tested positive for a double geneset something or other, basically the end result is I have MTHFR. You can google that if you want. It's all about methylation problems which leads to histamine problems. The geneset is kind of common, so it's highly possible that is affecting you.

 

So increased estrogen could make something like that worse, but in the end it's not really the cause of the MTHFR...it's the bad methylation pathway. 

 

I've been trying to link this to my rosacea. Although every derm has called it "rosacea" it is strikingly similar to a histamine response. But there is very little research linking the two together. 


Edited by Green Gables, 16 December 2013 - 11:21 PM.


#8 WishClean

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 03:48 AM

Interesting...so can you improve methylation pathways?

What does your rosacea look like, and is it concentrated around a particular area of your face? A few years ago, I thought I had rosacea around my mouth and on my chin (according to a clueless derm). It turns out it was an allergy to SLS. As soon as I switched my mouthwash and toothpaste to non-SLS products, it started to face. I also used neem cream to help the redness fade faster. Do you think yours might be a reaction to something?

If it's a histamine response, do you also get redness/ red spots on other parts of your body? I get red spots on my inner arms when my histamines rise, but they fade within a few hours.

Yeah. It is not always the estrogen either.

 

A while ago I got the results of a genetic test back, and I tested positive for a double geneset something or other, basically the end result is I have MTHFR. You can google that if you want. It's all about methylation problems which leads to histamine problems. The geneset is kind of common, so it's highly possible that is affecting you.

 

So increased estrogen could make something like that worse, but in the end it's not really the cause of the MTHFR...it's the bad methylation pathway. 

 

I've been trying to link this to my rosacea. Although every derm has called it "rosacea" it is strikingly similar to a histamine response. But there is very little research linking the two together. 



#9 Green Gables

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:31 PM

My "permanent redness" is the classic rosacea butterfly pattern on the face. My flushes make my whole face go red as well as the whole neck/chest and even shoulders.

 

I haven't used SLS/fluoride/peppermint/wintergreen/anything irritating in my toothpaste/mouthwash for ages, and it's not concentrated around my mouth anyway.

 

I don't get any spots anywhere on my body since using spiro, though I only got acne outside my face very very rarely anyway. I don't recall ever getting hives, if that's what you mean. 

 

If the redness isn't really rosacea, and if it turns out not to be from the MTHFR, really all I have left is lupus, but frankly if I have lupus maybe I don't want to know. eusa_hand.gif

 

You can improve methylation pathways through some various lifestyle changes and also specific forms of some B vitamins. Apparently if you can't methylate you can't process B vitamins because they're not in the most active form. So for example you can test for B vitamins and show a really high serum level, but your cellular level will be really low because you're not utilizing it properly. Like how some people need D3 because they can't properly convert D2. 

 

You can get some of the B vitamins in the "active" form over the counter. There are also a few prescriptions, such as Deplin, which offer that as well for MTHFR folks. 

 

All this stuff also effects stuff like Sam-e and serotonin, so you get the fun of depression/anxiety tendencies thrown in the mix. 

 

You can read Dr. Lynch's Basic MTHFR Protocol


Edited by Green Gables, 17 December 2013 - 12:37 PM.


#10 WishClean

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:38 AM

Wow, I hope it isn't lupus... lupus gets misdiagnosed all the time by doctors.

Do the flushes you get last for a long time, or do they fade fairly quickly?

My "permanent redness" is the classic rosacea butterfly pattern on the face. My flushes make my whole face go red as well as the whole neck/chest and even shoulders.

 

I haven't used SLS/fluoride/peppermint/wintergreen/anything irritating in my toothpaste/mouthwash for ages, and it's not concentrated around my mouth anyway.

 

I don't get any spots anywhere on my body since using spiro, though I only got acne outside my face very very rarely anyway. I don't recall ever getting hives, if that's what you mean. 

 

If the redness isn't really rosacea, and if it turns out not to be from the MTHFR, really all I have left is lupus, but frankly if I have lupus maybe I don't want to know. eusa_hand.gif

 

You can improve methylation pathways through some various lifestyle changes and also specific forms of some B vitamins. Apparently if you can't methylate you can't process B vitamins because they're not in the most active form. So for example you can test for B vitamins and show a really high serum level, but your cellular level will be really low because you're not utilizing it properly. Like how some people need D3 because they can't properly convert D2. 

 

You can get some of the B vitamins in the "active" form over the counter. There are also a few prescriptions, such as Deplin, which offer that as well for MTHFR folks. 

 

All this stuff also effects stuff like Sam-e and serotonin, so you get the fun of depression/anxiety tendencies thrown in the mix. 

 

You can read Dr. Lynch's Basic MTHFR Protocol



#11 WishClean

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:30 PM

Hey greengables, happy new year!  I'm still investigating the estrogen dominance/ histamine connection, and there might be something there. After having a nasty acne rebound when coming off a short course of a decongestant & antihistamine med for a bad cold, I was desperate and the herbalist I saw put me back on vitex to see if it would help with histamine reactions. And these past few days, I have been able to eat more freely without major issues and without breaking out. Could vitex be helpful in reducing histamine reactions? I know that my histamine reactions increased when I tried to come off it....

Another thing the herbalist said was to check my prolactin levels in 3 months, then decrease vitex and keep taking DCI & myo inositol. What is the role of prolactin in acne??? I have read conflicting things about vitex either increasing or lowering prolactin, and I'm not sure which one is the desirable effect. 

Histamine and Hormones

Histamine-intolerant women often suffer from the symptoms listed above, especially headaches and menstrual pain, during certain phases of their menstrual cycle. Histamine levels tend to fluctuate with the level of hormones, especially oestrogen, at ovulation and just prior to the onset of menstruation. In contrast, many women with both allergies and histamine intolerance find significant relief of their symptoms during pregnancy; this is because the placenta makes a great deal of DAO, the enzyme that breaks down histamine. The result is that the level of histamine no longer exceeds the woman’s tolerance threshold, and she remains blissfully free from her symptoms throughout her pregnancy. Unfortunately, the symptoms tend to recur once the DAO from the placenta is no longer available after the birth of her child.

 

>Pain and Inflammation. A low progesterone to estrogen ratio is associated with increased levels of molecules that cause inflammation. These molecules are called kinins. Estrogen increases kinin levels, and giving progesterone can decrease them. Kinins occur naturally in the body but promote the release of histamines. In conditions of allergic inflammation, kinins are elevated. High levels of kinins are linked to asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, and a number of bowel diseases.

 

Histamine stimulated a dose-related increase in estradiol secretion with a maximal stimulatory effect at 10(-3) mol/l.

 

To summarize:

- Progesterone promotes myelination, which is one of the pathways the body uses to break down histamine (primary pathways are DAO in the gut and HMT on the cellular level).

- Unopposed estrogen increases histamine overall, which is why some women feel better on progesterone, even if their progesterone is not actually low. 

- Histamine stimulated estrogen secretion. Catch-22? Estrogen increases histamine, increased histamine also increases estrogen...

- Estrogen increases kinins and progesterone decreases them. Kinins promote inflammation. If you have a histamine issue, progesterone may help by decreasing the kinins. 

 

 

I'm not making any blanket statements here. So no one get their panties in a twist if progesterone was your miracle cure. But it's an interesting discussion to get going.

 

Read the full article here. 

 

Other reading:

 

Histamine and histamine intolerance

 






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